I've been working in Architecture for 10 years now and the conclusion I've come to is that being an Architect ( I'm recently licensed ) is degrading and bad for one's mental health. I earn less than anyone in my family ( 44,000 before paycuts )including my brother's part time working wife or my niece who's 20 and sells cars. The companies I have worked at essentially need draftsmen and refuse to allow any upward mobility. I understand paying your dues but after 9 years of drafting and licensure? Come on already. Every year its the same at reviews, " Dude, your role is really expanding within the firm. This year we should let you run with a couple jobs". Then the 2% raise which usually covers about half my gas for the year and right back to drafting. Gee thanks. Then theres the bosses; Golf playing bad skin old men with absolutely no design skills, or intention of doing good design, and raarely if ever even look at their own projects or review anything that goes out. Just squirt out a sketch of some awful rec center or strip mall and move on while Im left to deal with the angry clients and contractors. How do they even stay in business and get repeat business? Im pushing 35 and essentially feel like a worthless turd. The best part is I'm supposed to be thankful I even still have a job!!! My favorite task of my week is listening to the partners talk about how "when I was your age" stories about buying houses, cars kids etc. and their stories of architectural conquest from the 80s and cool they were even though the colored pencil renders on the wall would indicate steaming dog shit instead, even by 1985 standards. I listen as if I care but really am trying to not rip their frigg'n heads off, somehow I feel my enabling their ego stroking is what keeps me employable.
Does anyone else working in this profession feel like a complete worthless POS with no future, trapped in cage and poked at with sticks, ready to bite?
Exactly. Passerby nailed it. Time to fish or cut bait at this time in your career. Well, I'd wait for the recession to actually be over and start up my own firm or move on to something else that might pay better, like waiting tables.
I'd wait until this depression/recession over, but no reason you can't look around now, start educating yourself.
If you want to start your own firm, start looking into the logistics of it now. Typically, it is the companies that are at the starting gate when the economy starts up again that succeed the quickest.
Does anyone else working in this profession feel like a complete worthless POS with no future, trapped in cage and poked at with sticks, ready to bite?
Today: yes, yes I do.
Well-written post, net dude - funny and engaging. Sorry it's the product of such misery.
Net Dude, Try working someplace else before therapy, how many offices have you worked for. and 44k sounds low, are you using Revit? Are you in a city or rural small city?
With exception of the handful of star-architects and mega-firm partners, architecture tends to be a demeaning profession long-term. I came out of school with rosy optimism, and have had a successful career for an architect. For an architect, I need to repeat because my parents think I'm barely managing in middle-age compared to my "big-law-firm" siblings, and I agree with that assessment. Thank goodness for the professional spouse and the two-income household - our toe-hold in upper middle-class success remains semi-viable.
Salary potential is low; for the average architect, the career peak salary $125,000 is less than starting salary for a young lawyer at a big law firm. Yes, someone will say "an architect is more noble than a lawyer" etc, but really, that's bullshit.
Career potential is limited. Only so many star-architects (all about connections) and corporate partners. For most architects, career growth is defined by locale, significant economic swings, social class, etc. Some architects are treated no better than the hired household help of their clients (and bosses).
Employment security is rare, unless government employment is obtained. Private sector employment is "at will", "at whim", and never really longterm predictable. Firms collapse, merge, morph, and employees are often in a state of inbalance.
Employee benefits are inconsistent and insecure. How many of us have had mandatory furloughs? Salary cuts? Loss of earlier benefits such as paid holidays, paid health care, paid dental care, paid parking, paid professional dues, etc. How many pay for their parking to do free overtime for the firm - without comp time?
Retirement is a concept, not a reality. A wonky 401K is not retirement security. No pension. Unlikely that profit-sharing will remain viable over longterm. Deferred compensation plans vanish when firm disappears into bankrupcy, etc.
Dot I think my therapy would be just telling the partners to get fucked. Seriously that would feel so good like some sort of office space moment of release.
Chicagotect, I have the same issue with my parents. They act like Im a failure because Im an Architect or at least a failed architect. They dont say it but you can pick up on people's attitudes in their voices. Its the tone of disappointment. In their mind a 35 year old man should be able to provide for a family, certainly one who is a professional such as an Architect.
Are we even professionals anymore or mere trades people?
Ok, in the event that an undergraduate architecture student couldn't handle making 35k a year (assuming he got a job) after getting an MArch, what are other more lucrative career paths that would make my undergrad degree worthwhile?
I've heard a structural engineering degree in conjunction with a bachelor's in architecture is worthwhile. What about getting an MBA instead of an MArch? Would that do much good?
net dude: i feel your pain! i think architecture is a very demeaning profession and i think this culture of pain begins in arch school. the mentality of having to pull all-nighters and working crazy hours is part of that S&M culture. most older architects tend to have this attitude of "i had it hard, so you should too..." there tends to be a lack of nurturing/ mentoring of younger professionals.
look at how the profession is structured- we make it so hard on ourselves to make it through. first there is school (long hours, hard work) which could take upto 7 years (BA + MArch), then there is IDP (trying to get as comprehensive an experience), and then there are the exams before you can legally call yourself a licensed architect. why do we make it so hard to be a part of the profession? (true, medical school is long and tough, but they really are dealing with people's lives!)
i have to say i totally see your point of view about earning potential. i'm 31, married, with a kid, and living in NYC, and i know that we could not make it on just my salary. my wife makes way more than i do, and she works part-time (granted, as a corporate lawyer at a large firm) and she's only been out of school a year longer than me. i'm sure it must be satisfying to finally see your design being built, but i'm sure it's equally satisfying to be able to provide for your family too!
looking and considering possible career changes too....
architecture isn't a degrading profession, for some it could just be an attitude thing. some of the snottiest people i know are in design in architecture, and make shit for money.
you have to understand why you're in it, you're the only one who can answer that for yourself.
there are those who think they can do architecture and become the next starchitect - total arrogance with no talent to show for it. when things aren't working the way they idealized, they move on to "better" things, like car sales or business development for carpet or something.
there are those who just enjoy it, understanding that there are no riches in it. they know how to make a little money and support a family with it, like a school teacher perhaps.
there are those who know how to make a living off of it, maybe even some good mulah...perhaps it will require you being your own boss, being a corporate architect, a government architect, a civil architect, whatever. but it's certainly not a degrading profession, imo.
architecture is a hard profession. it's not for sissies.
Hahaha, I agree, and i'm the version of you 9 years ago. I had the exact same thoughts running through my head this last year at my firm, up until I just got laid off. I don't think all the education and stress at work justifies the end imo, though i'm still pretty new to the office environment. If the end goal is to get satisfaction from seeing a design get built, I'd much just rather be an artist.
Switch firms when you can. If the paycheck is important work for a larger corporate firm.
Architecture is hard but there are certainly paths towards a respectable salary of over 100K, you have to make sacrifices for it, i.e, type of work, workplace, where you work, etc...
It seems like if you are being paid that little then the firm you work for has deemed thats all they need to keep you, of course, in this economy they have the upper hand, but hopefully that will change soon
The other route is to leverage your experience so far into another field, possibly real estate or something, a risky field but one that pays out if you get it right.
What is your purpose in life? Is it to be famous? To be rich? It seems that you don't have answers to those questions, and you are believing that money will solve your own personal issues. Why should we believe that you are any better a designer than your boss? Why should we believe that you can run the business better?
Don't blame architecture for your own shortcomings.
..."Chicagotect, I have the same issue with my parents. They act like Im a failure because Im an Architect or at least a failed architect. They dont say it but you can pick up on people's attitudes in their voices. Its the tone of disappointment. In their mind a 35 year old man should be able to provide for a family, certainly one who is a professional such as an Architect."
That's pretty sad...at 35, why do you even give a shit what your parents - or anybody - might think?
I dont think the answer net dude is looking for is to become rich and famous. I think it is more about compensation for time and effort, and the ability to take some opportunities up.
This might be a combination of specific personal and professional circumstance, or it could be more wide spread and felt by others [which we know it is].
The worst thing in the world is to feel that your professional career does not offer you any hope or chance of improvement or advancement.
A bus driver can expect that, all things considered, what they do and experience will remain constant for as long as they are engaged as a bus driver.
Surely an architect could realistically hope that with time, effort and ambition, anything is possible. Thats the definition of a professional career - so why isnt it happening?
net dude...I don't know where you're working, but if it's in a big city, you are getting the shaft on that salary. I know designers fresh out of grad school who were getting more than 44k a year (last year before recession).
I had a similar experience when first coming out of undergrad...working for a boring firm doing institutional work, all autocad, and I had to listen to boring "old man" stories of the "when I was your age" crap. When these people were our age there were no computers, electricity or writing utensils and they had to walk 15 miles to work in the snow, uphill both ways. It sounds like your not mentally stimulated by that job and you need to find a new job asap, even with the recession. I solved my boring job problem by moving to new york 5 years ago, going to grad school and I haven't looked back since. I'm not sure where you are and if you've been to grad school yet but you might want to consider either a career change or a change of scenery before you become one of the bitter old men you're working with, telling boring stories to young designers. Architecture can be one of the most exciting professions when working for the right firm. Why do you think everyone looks at us in awe and jealousy when we say we are architects....Go find that mystique somewhere or you'll drive yourself crazy.
I started at 44 right out of grad school and moved on after a couple years because I thought that that pay was unsatisfactory for the expensive city I live in. I find it pretty hard to believe that you can have 10 years of experience, be licenced, and then make that kind of money. I think that is down right degrading in and of itself. When firms start to hire again, I'd jump ship at once.
While I think that the way many firms have handled layoffs and pay-cuts in this economy is downright undignified, I think that most firms try to treat their employees like professionals. It really depends on where you are. I think that my firm is pretty good about how the deal with corporate politics. They give a young guy like me a lot of responsibility and it's great to be treated like a professional unlike my last office.
I've been watching this debate - in various forms - for nearly 40 years now. What I take away from that is the strong conviction that too many of us approach our work as though somebody owes us something.
Every business is about delivering the goods. The people in this profession who consistently manage their own work and consistently deliver value to their firm and their clients can do very well. Those who spend all their time whining and blaming others and expecting somebody else to hold their hand and show them how to be successful are destined for a career of frustration.
Rationale business people - be they your employer or your client - are willing to pay well for solid, discernable value. They're not willing to pay well just because you show up. They're definitely not interested in paying well so you can pursue your own agenda and ignore theirs.
It's time to grow up, people! You control your own future - "architecture" is not holding you back.
Thanks for the responses here. It was a ruff morning and sorry to sound like a crybaby. I'm about an hour outside of a large city. My first job out of undergrad was for 32K. I moved on after the entire firm was slashed in the recession of 2000, I was spared but sat around doing nothing for months. I moved home and took a local job where I am now. Some years I received decent bonuses, like 10K one year. But that hasn't happened since 2006. 2007 I received 2500 bonus none in 2008 and none this year plus pay cut. I could work at a big firm, after all I did it once but watched everyone get cut. My friends who worked at large exciting firms have all been cut some out of work for over a year now and it wasn't like they were making that much more - base 50 or 55 in a large city for staff architects. All the senior folks are, well, seniors. So it really is sort of a rock and a hard place issue. I refuse to go into debt to get a masters when I already have a license, I think this education inflation is a terrible system, and honestly I dont think it translates necessarily into higher pay. I think the choice is clear, for most of us private practice is the only route to happiness. Let me tell you the first steps are rough. My first little side job was for a whopping total of $3,000!!! The payoff? It's my creation. A good route would be to become a bartender, all cash, at a country club where I can talk drunk rich people into hiring me for their projects. It might be the best synergistic coupling of skills they dont teach in school.
the whole idea behind "architecture is demeaning" seems increasingly out of touch. maybe your expectations no longer match the market reality?
From a simplistic view, architectural services simply are not valued. want to make money with an undergraduate degree? get a mech/biomed/electrical engineering degree. get into a field that generates wealth and actual goods, rather than glorified customer service.
File I think your right architecture isnt holding me back. Its old architects that are holding me back. I'm not going to pay for their cars and golf trips any longer. If you've been doing this for 40 years then you have certainly ridden a tidal wave of economic fortunes.
net dude-thanks for the insight..... I was intending to point out how architecture, (unlike some engineering fields) is taught/practiced/consumed in the US in a way that does not generate a product that has enduring market value.
as much as it terrifies to say it, traditional architects are increasingly going the way of the unionized-auto worker: irreverent, resistant to change and a byproduct of an unsustainable demand.
I have been an optimist and silver-lining-looker about this profession for so long now... and after years in the profession I am finally beginning to see how much you have to willfully blind yourself by passion in order to cultivate any happiness in this field. I have shared my "buck up, it ain't that bad, at least we get X, Y, and Z!" attitude in countless threads like yours over the years. Usually, however, these threads are marked more by rash venting and cynicism/bitterness provoked by a singularly bad boss or a singularly horrible client; yours is the first I've read that just reads like simple honesty -- as though you are simply finally being honest with yourself after years of experience. Not overreacting, or raving about something you know little about (like so many fresh-out-of-school grads pissed that they have to spend a day crafting a powerpoint presentation), but simply looking at the profession without putting on those rose-colored glasses of passion first. Anyway, I have to say, what you've written really resonates with me.
Now that I'm taking a small breather from the profession, it's amazing how much needless frustration and difficulty, inherent in the life of an architect, I can finally recognize. The smallest concessions, taken for granted in other fields, glimmer to me like diamonds in the distance. An increase in vacation time each year -- amazing! Full health care -- holy canoly! Overtime -- wow, I didn't even know that existed! A clear, no-nonsense path up to management -- I think I just had a heart attack! I read job postings for government jobs that require very little education or experience but offer salaries an architect could never dream of -- and there are scores of these. They are considered the backwater of the career ocean. Nobody wants a government job. And at this point, all I can do is wonder why. They sound like a dream come true, to me. Another thing -- my unemployment, combined with my part-time job, pays me 2/3 of the take-home wages I earned at my last job. 2/3. For working 8 hours a week versus 50 hours a week. Remind me of why I want to go back to this profession?
The problem is, I still love doing the work. But I'm increasingly facing the thought that I don't think I can achieve the life that I want if I am doing what I love. That's a shame.
Before you go to that website though... go to Sears and buy the most god awful black polyester suit, a bright blue colored shirt (poly blend) and a barely made of silk tie (be sure that the tie has a funky 1990s pattern-- stripes, dots and solid colors are elitist).
This will tell everyone around you that you have absolutely no taste--- ergo, no preferences or pretenses. The polyblend is important because it assures people that you have a low overhead and a health relationship with the petrochemical industry.
Then head over to J.C. Penney and buy the most boxy, god awful dress shoes in black (bonus points if you get something "sporty" or has a tassle).
This will alert employers that you believe anything anyone well tell you about business, the workplace and "fitting in." In will alert to anyone not wearing black leather dress shoes that they need to get out of the way because a working-class entry-level douchenozzle has something to actually do.
Because you've more than likely picked up the ugliest and most deformed shoes, this is a sign to employers your commitment to them.
The reason is that debilitating foot conditions like hammertoe will prevent you from running away from your desk at any significant speed. All attempts to leave will be met with favors and overtime being asked.
Once you start reaching the point of when you have to buy dress pants with comfort bands on the sides, they management will integrate you into the snack machine matrix.
Then head to the nearest jewelry store and get the biggest chunkiest stainless steel watch for 99 dollars or less.
This demonstrates that you actually care about time. It will also tell employers that you are not a clockwatcher because your watch is so ghastly that it causes worms to erupt out of the eyes that look directly into the dial.
It also prevents work time diddling and any excessively jiggling with the left hand under a desk will be far to loud to go unnoticed.
Finally, be sure to hit up a pac sun or equivalent and buy the douchebagiest looking charcoal or black oakleys.
Do not wear them, simply place them ontop of over-gelled hair to make sure the people around you are aware that you do "sports stuff" on weekends.
You are now ready to being the transcendence into utter mediocrity.
Helpful side tips:
Wear a wedding ring, whether it be fake or not. This tells the men of the office that you are one of them even if you are not. This also tells women that there might be some reason to actually have sex with you because it appears someone else might be.
Frequently talk about "edgy" topics to make sure people think you are with it. But under no circumstance be actually edgy. Talk about how you want to ride a motorcycle, like whatever "alternative" band that is popular and talk about how you work for charities that only mask problems but not actually solve them. Talk about how you also like to cook but only bring in the lamest and most generic homebaked goods into the office.
And finally, never say these words in a single sentence "south of france," "clubbing," "comme de garcons," "tartare," "meatpacking district," "for the weekend," "cranderosa," "liquid lunch," and "chauffeur." This will instantly detach you of any connections to your bland coworkers.
If you are looking for the same level of compensation as a lawyer or banker, become a lawyer or a banker. If you want the job security of a government worker, become one. If you want to destroy the very fabric of American society while enriching yourself to gluttonous proportions, go to work for Goldman Sachs, Big Oil, Pharm or K Street.
But otherwise you've got to leave that stuff at work. Also, try to learn something new each day - stupid and sappy, sure, but it goes a long way into making the day worthwhile. make opportunities for yourself whenever and however possible. It sounds like you bosses already lump a lot of things on you, figure our what would be required to run your own firm and volunteer (yeah, I know, more hours) to do it or mirror what you see at home.
Plus, remember, most people inthe US don't even make 44k a year now and aren't likely to anytime in the near future.
wow, this is the most honest thread about the state of the profession i have read here. while net dude's case may be a bit extreme, i think it speaks to the frustrations many young professionals feel. it is tempting to say, "older architects take note," but my feeling is it will likely fall on deaf ears. i think this thread really speaks back to young architects as a call to innovate, change, and take risks. if architects continue to try to do things the twentieth century way of climbing the corporate ladder or expecting the firm to provide a safety net, i think there is the potential that the traditional career architect could go the way of the uaw worker, slipping further and further into irrelevancy.
file makes one of the best points in this thread - after you cut through all the excuses, what are you bringing to the table both in terms of your job and your career?
A bit late to the discussion, but the way I see it:
netdude's firm doesn't represent the profession (no matter how prevalent it may seem, which I assume is still skewed since people that are unhappy with something is more likely to speak up). The current condition of our profession doesn't represent what our profession can be - and I'm not even factoring in what happened with the economy there. The economy has brought out the ugly side in many businesses outside of our field; our profession wasn't singled out although we were hit harder than most.
The important thing is that we can shape the profession, and needs to be shaped. And its partly the lack of ownership of this profession that has allowed it to weaken, if anything.
The VP of my firm called me into the office one day to discuss something, and he showed me a proposal by a CM firm for a project. Their proposal was nearly 8 figures. While its only a proposal and hasn't been accepted yet, they had the courage to propose this, and felt it could be justified. Its not only shocking that it is nearly 8 figures, it is shocking that they justified this WITHOUT TAKING LIABILITY. The architect and engineering consultants get the fall for this if there is an error/ommission AND even if it goes over budget/ not on schedule (I've done litigation investigation before as the third party).
So while it may seem the CM is way out of line on this, who is the better businessperson? The one taking the liability and smaller fee to design the damn thing, or the person that put themselves in between the architect and owner, gets the project built without taking the liability. Rightfully or not, justified or not, the CMs have put themselves in a better position as a business model.
I've also been noticing a lot of BIM threads on Archinect. Architectural schools should have been teaching it, advancing it, integrating it, experimenting with it, WAY before. (BTW, the BIM model was also in the CM's contract for a large fee). It is ridiculous that while we, as architects and aspiring architects, are the in the best position to leverage this tool yet, we're late in the game and have no idea how to sell it. Instead most are trying to use it to increase profit by thinking it will simply take less time for the same deliverables. If you think that is BIM, you've failed as a businessperson.
And not only are we failing to sell and getting the true value of our services, but our own employees. There is no reason we can't pay our employees overtime. We are devaluing their work, time, skills, talents by not paying for their dedication and time. Basically, if we're not paying for over-time, the employees should share the profit of the firm in some form. Period. (BTW, I do get paid overtime and there is profit-sharing so I'm not writing this in bitterness, but as a matter of fact).
well that's exactly it Slartibartfast. my employers have been screwed over so many times by so many different contracts and clients, even before the recession, that they aren't in the position to do anything more than treat us like slaves. it's a dysfunctional business and has been for a while now.
Is Architecture degrading or is it just Me?
I've been working in Architecture for 10 years now and the conclusion I've come to is that being an Architect ( I'm recently licensed ) is degrading and bad for one's mental health. I earn less than anyone in my family ( 44,000 before paycuts )including my brother's part time working wife or my niece who's 20 and sells cars. The companies I have worked at essentially need draftsmen and refuse to allow any upward mobility. I understand paying your dues but after 9 years of drafting and licensure? Come on already. Every year its the same at reviews, " Dude, your role is really expanding within the firm. This year we should let you run with a couple jobs". Then the 2% raise which usually covers about half my gas for the year and right back to drafting. Gee thanks. Then theres the bosses; Golf playing bad skin old men with absolutely no design skills, or intention of doing good design, and raarely if ever even look at their own projects or review anything that goes out. Just squirt out a sketch of some awful rec center or strip mall and move on while Im left to deal with the angry clients and contractors. How do they even stay in business and get repeat business? Im pushing 35 and essentially feel like a worthless turd. The best part is I'm supposed to be thankful I even still have a job!!! My favorite task of my week is listening to the partners talk about how "when I was your age" stories about buying houses, cars kids etc. and their stories of architectural conquest from the 80s and cool they were even though the colored pencil renders on the wall would indicate steaming dog shit instead, even by 1985 standards. I listen as if I care but really am trying to not rip their frigg'n heads off, somehow I feel my enabling their ego stroking is what keeps me employable.
Does anyone else working in this profession feel like a complete worthless POS with no future, trapped in cage and poked at with sticks, ready to bite?
Anyone looking to change careers?
run Forrest, run...
So you're licensed?
Exactly. Passerby nailed it. Time to fish or cut bait at this time in your career. Well, I'd wait for the recession to actually be over and start up my own firm or move on to something else that might pay better, like waiting tables.
your job sounds really subpar.
i know people right out of grad school who make more than that/have better jobs. don't stay there.
Yup, changed careers just after graduating.
I'd wait until this depression/recession over, but no reason you can't look around now, start educating yourself.
If you want to start your own firm, start looking into the logistics of it now. Typically, it is the companies that are at the starting gate when the economy starts up again that succeed the quickest.
Today: yes, yes I do.
Well-written post, net dude - funny and engaging. Sorry it's the product of such misery.
net dude,
you may want to consider therapy, and i say that with no condescension.
Net Dude, Try working someplace else before therapy, how many offices have you worked for. and 44k sounds low, are you using Revit? Are you in a city or rural small city?
With exception of the handful of star-architects and mega-firm partners, architecture tends to be a demeaning profession long-term. I came out of school with rosy optimism, and have had a successful career for an architect. For an architect, I need to repeat because my parents think I'm barely managing in middle-age compared to my "big-law-firm" siblings, and I agree with that assessment. Thank goodness for the professional spouse and the two-income household - our toe-hold in upper middle-class success remains semi-viable.
Salary potential is low; for the average architect, the career peak salary $125,000 is less than starting salary for a young lawyer at a big law firm. Yes, someone will say "an architect is more noble than a lawyer" etc, but really, that's bullshit.
Career potential is limited. Only so many star-architects (all about connections) and corporate partners. For most architects, career growth is defined by locale, significant economic swings, social class, etc. Some architects are treated no better than the hired household help of their clients (and bosses).
Employment security is rare, unless government employment is obtained. Private sector employment is "at will", "at whim", and never really longterm predictable. Firms collapse, merge, morph, and employees are often in a state of inbalance.
Employee benefits are inconsistent and insecure. How many of us have had mandatory furloughs? Salary cuts? Loss of earlier benefits such as paid holidays, paid health care, paid dental care, paid parking, paid professional dues, etc. How many pay for their parking to do free overtime for the firm - without comp time?
Retirement is a concept, not a reality. A wonky 401K is not retirement security. No pension. Unlikely that profit-sharing will remain viable over longterm. Deferred compensation plans vanish when firm disappears into bankrupcy, etc.
So well said !!!!!!!!
Dot I think my therapy would be just telling the partners to get fucked. Seriously that would feel so good like some sort of office space moment of release.
Chicagotect, I have the same issue with my parents. They act like Im a failure because Im an Architect or at least a failed architect. They dont say it but you can pick up on people's attitudes in their voices. Its the tone of disappointment. In their mind a 35 year old man should be able to provide for a family, certainly one who is a professional such as an Architect.
Are we even professionals anymore or mere trades people?
Has it always been this way?
We are the weird gray area of professional, trade and artist.
DEPRESSING. AGGGH.
Ok, in the event that an undergraduate architecture student couldn't handle making 35k a year (assuming he got a job) after getting an MArch, what are other more lucrative career paths that would make my undergrad degree worthwhile?
I've heard a structural engineering degree in conjunction with a bachelor's in architecture is worthwhile. What about getting an MBA instead of an MArch? Would that do much good?
35K seems low, I think starting in a small collage town in 2003 that would be ok but not now.
net dude: i feel your pain! i think architecture is a very demeaning profession and i think this culture of pain begins in arch school. the mentality of having to pull all-nighters and working crazy hours is part of that S&M culture. most older architects tend to have this attitude of "i had it hard, so you should too..." there tends to be a lack of nurturing/ mentoring of younger professionals.
look at how the profession is structured- we make it so hard on ourselves to make it through. first there is school (long hours, hard work) which could take upto 7 years (BA + MArch), then there is IDP (trying to get as comprehensive an experience), and then there are the exams before you can legally call yourself a licensed architect. why do we make it so hard to be a part of the profession? (true, medical school is long and tough, but they really are dealing with people's lives!)
i have to say i totally see your point of view about earning potential. i'm 31, married, with a kid, and living in NYC, and i know that we could not make it on just my salary. my wife makes way more than i do, and she works part-time (granted, as a corporate lawyer at a large firm) and she's only been out of school a year longer than me. i'm sure it must be satisfying to finally see your design being built, but i'm sure it's equally satisfying to be able to provide for your family too!
looking and considering possible career changes too....
it's just you. I'm doin' okay.
ChicagoArchitect is spot on...
It's a strange field and things are changing rapidly with the consolidation that's taking place.
Where will we be in 5 years?
I hope to have tenure which is one viable way to establishing some sort of fiscal stability in this crazy field...
There is only one thing worse and that is one architecture firm working for another architecture firm.....now that can make heads spin.
I would suggest you become a fire marshal or a building official cause then you have da POWER TO CRUSH ARCHITECTS AT EVERY CORNER....
architecture isn't a degrading profession, for some it could just be an attitude thing. some of the snottiest people i know are in design in architecture, and make shit for money.
you have to understand why you're in it, you're the only one who can answer that for yourself.
there are those who think they can do architecture and become the next starchitect - total arrogance with no talent to show for it. when things aren't working the way they idealized, they move on to "better" things, like car sales or business development for carpet or something.
there are those who just enjoy it, understanding that there are no riches in it. they know how to make a little money and support a family with it, like a school teacher perhaps.
there are those who know how to make a living off of it, maybe even some good mulah...perhaps it will require you being your own boss, being a corporate architect, a government architect, a civil architect, whatever. but it's certainly not a degrading profession, imo.
architecture is a hard profession. it's not for sissies.
Hahaha, I agree, and i'm the version of you 9 years ago. I had the exact same thoughts running through my head this last year at my firm, up until I just got laid off. I don't think all the education and stress at work justifies the end imo, though i'm still pretty new to the office environment. If the end goal is to get satisfaction from seeing a design get built, I'd much just rather be an artist.
Switch firms when you can. If the paycheck is important work for a larger corporate firm.
Architecture is hard but there are certainly paths towards a respectable salary of over 100K, you have to make sacrifices for it, i.e, type of work, workplace, where you work, etc...
It seems like if you are being paid that little then the firm you work for has deemed thats all they need to keep you, of course, in this economy they have the upper hand, but hopefully that will change soon
The other route is to leverage your experience so far into another field, possibly real estate or something, a risky field but one that pays out if you get it right.
What is your purpose in life? Is it to be famous? To be rich? It seems that you don't have answers to those questions, and you are believing that money will solve your own personal issues. Why should we believe that you are any better a designer than your boss? Why should we believe that you can run the business better?
Don't blame architecture for your own shortcomings.
..."Chicagotect, I have the same issue with my parents. They act like Im a failure because Im an Architect or at least a failed architect. They dont say it but you can pick up on people's attitudes in their voices. Its the tone of disappointment. In their mind a 35 year old man should be able to provide for a family, certainly one who is a professional such as an Architect."
That's pretty sad...at 35, why do you even give a shit what your parents - or anybody - might think?
I dont think the answer net dude is looking for is to become rich and famous. I think it is more about compensation for time and effort, and the ability to take some opportunities up.
This might be a combination of specific personal and professional circumstance, or it could be more wide spread and felt by others [which we know it is].
The worst thing in the world is to feel that your professional career does not offer you any hope or chance of improvement or advancement.
A bus driver can expect that, all things considered, what they do and experience will remain constant for as long as they are engaged as a bus driver.
Surely an architect could realistically hope that with time, effort and ambition, anything is possible. Thats the definition of a professional career - so why isnt it happening?
net dude...I don't know where you're working, but if it's in a big city, you are getting the shaft on that salary. I know designers fresh out of grad school who were getting more than 44k a year (last year before recession).
I had a similar experience when first coming out of undergrad...working for a boring firm doing institutional work, all autocad, and I had to listen to boring "old man" stories of the "when I was your age" crap. When these people were our age there were no computers, electricity or writing utensils and they had to walk 15 miles to work in the snow, uphill both ways. It sounds like your not mentally stimulated by that job and you need to find a new job asap, even with the recession. I solved my boring job problem by moving to new york 5 years ago, going to grad school and I haven't looked back since. I'm not sure where you are and if you've been to grad school yet but you might want to consider either a career change or a change of scenery before you become one of the bitter old men you're working with, telling boring stories to young designers. Architecture can be one of the most exciting professions when working for the right firm. Why do you think everyone looks at us in awe and jealousy when we say we are architects....Go find that mystique somewhere or you'll drive yourself crazy.
well said otis.
I started at 44 right out of grad school and moved on after a couple years because I thought that that pay was unsatisfactory for the expensive city I live in. I find it pretty hard to believe that you can have 10 years of experience, be licenced, and then make that kind of money. I think that is down right degrading in and of itself. When firms start to hire again, I'd jump ship at once.
While I think that the way many firms have handled layoffs and pay-cuts in this economy is downright undignified, I think that most firms try to treat their employees like professionals. It really depends on where you are. I think that my firm is pretty good about how the deal with corporate politics. They give a young guy like me a lot of responsibility and it's great to be treated like a professional unlike my last office.
44?? 24?
I've been watching this debate - in various forms - for nearly 40 years now. What I take away from that is the strong conviction that too many of us approach our work as though somebody owes us something.
Every business is about delivering the goods. The people in this profession who consistently manage their own work and consistently deliver value to their firm and their clients can do very well. Those who spend all their time whining and blaming others and expecting somebody else to hold their hand and show them how to be successful are destined for a career of frustration.
Rationale business people - be they your employer or your client - are willing to pay well for solid, discernable value. They're not willing to pay well just because you show up. They're definitely not interested in paying well so you can pursue your own agenda and ignore theirs.
It's time to grow up, people! You control your own future - "architecture" is not holding you back.
Thanks for the responses here. It was a ruff morning and sorry to sound like a crybaby. I'm about an hour outside of a large city. My first job out of undergrad was for 32K. I moved on after the entire firm was slashed in the recession of 2000, I was spared but sat around doing nothing for months. I moved home and took a local job where I am now. Some years I received decent bonuses, like 10K one year. But that hasn't happened since 2006. 2007 I received 2500 bonus none in 2008 and none this year plus pay cut. I could work at a big firm, after all I did it once but watched everyone get cut. My friends who worked at large exciting firms have all been cut some out of work for over a year now and it wasn't like they were making that much more - base 50 or 55 in a large city for staff architects. All the senior folks are, well, seniors. So it really is sort of a rock and a hard place issue. I refuse to go into debt to get a masters when I already have a license, I think this education inflation is a terrible system, and honestly I dont think it translates necessarily into higher pay. I think the choice is clear, for most of us private practice is the only route to happiness. Let me tell you the first steps are rough. My first little side job was for a whopping total of $3,000!!! The payoff? It's my creation. A good route would be to become a bartender, all cash, at a country club where I can talk drunk rich people into hiring me for their projects. It might be the best synergistic coupling of skills they dont teach in school.
the whole idea behind "architecture is demeaning" seems increasingly out of touch. maybe your expectations no longer match the market reality?
From a simplistic view, architectural services simply are not valued. want to make money with an undergraduate degree? get a mech/biomed/electrical engineering degree. get into a field that generates wealth and actual goods, rather than glorified customer service.
File I think your right architecture isnt holding me back. Its old architects that are holding me back. I'm not going to pay for their cars and golf trips any longer. If you've been doing this for 40 years then you have certainly ridden a tidal wave of economic fortunes.
msudon - Once licensed your degree is pretty much moot point
net dude-thanks for the insight..... I was intending to point out how architecture, (unlike some engineering fields) is taught/practiced/consumed in the US in a way that does not generate a product that has enduring market value.
as much as it terrifies to say it, traditional architects are increasingly going the way of the unionized-auto worker: irreverent, resistant to change and a byproduct of an unsustainable demand.
So, what is the philosophy of the New Architect?
hi there net dude,
I have been an optimist and silver-lining-looker about this profession for so long now... and after years in the profession I am finally beginning to see how much you have to willfully blind yourself by passion in order to cultivate any happiness in this field. I have shared my "buck up, it ain't that bad, at least we get X, Y, and Z!" attitude in countless threads like yours over the years. Usually, however, these threads are marked more by rash venting and cynicism/bitterness provoked by a singularly bad boss or a singularly horrible client; yours is the first I've read that just reads like simple honesty -- as though you are simply finally being honest with yourself after years of experience. Not overreacting, or raving about something you know little about (like so many fresh-out-of-school grads pissed that they have to spend a day crafting a powerpoint presentation), but simply looking at the profession without putting on those rose-colored glasses of passion first. Anyway, I have to say, what you've written really resonates with me.
Now that I'm taking a small breather from the profession, it's amazing how much needless frustration and difficulty, inherent in the life of an architect, I can finally recognize. The smallest concessions, taken for granted in other fields, glimmer to me like diamonds in the distance. An increase in vacation time each year -- amazing! Full health care -- holy canoly! Overtime -- wow, I didn't even know that existed! A clear, no-nonsense path up to management -- I think I just had a heart attack! I read job postings for government jobs that require very little education or experience but offer salaries an architect could never dream of -- and there are scores of these. They are considered the backwater of the career ocean. Nobody wants a government job. And at this point, all I can do is wonder why. They sound like a dream come true, to me. Another thing -- my unemployment, combined with my part-time job, pays me 2/3 of the take-home wages I earned at my last job. 2/3. For working 8 hours a week versus 50 hours a week. Remind me of why I want to go back to this profession?
The problem is, I still love doing the work. But I'm increasingly facing the thought that I don't think I can achieve the life that I want if I am doing what I love. That's a shame.
Or maybe I'm just having a bad week...
What's a 'government job'?
just wondering, what is the salary potential of architectural academic, i.e. teaching?
jk3hl, planning.org.
Before you go to that website though... go to Sears and buy the most god awful black polyester suit, a bright blue colored shirt (poly blend) and a barely made of silk tie (be sure that the tie has a funky 1990s pattern-- stripes, dots and solid colors are elitist).
This will tell everyone around you that you have absolutely no taste--- ergo, no preferences or pretenses. The polyblend is important because it assures people that you have a low overhead and a health relationship with the petrochemical industry.
Then head over to J.C. Penney and buy the most boxy, god awful dress shoes in black (bonus points if you get something "sporty" or has a tassle).
This will alert employers that you believe anything anyone well tell you about business, the workplace and "fitting in." In will alert to anyone not wearing black leather dress shoes that they need to get out of the way because a working-class entry-level douchenozzle has something to actually do.
Because you've more than likely picked up the ugliest and most deformed shoes, this is a sign to employers your commitment to them.
The reason is that debilitating foot conditions like hammertoe will prevent you from running away from your desk at any significant speed. All attempts to leave will be met with favors and overtime being asked.
Once you start reaching the point of when you have to buy dress pants with comfort bands on the sides, they management will integrate you into the snack machine matrix.
Then head to the nearest jewelry store and get the biggest chunkiest stainless steel watch for 99 dollars or less.
This demonstrates that you actually care about time. It will also tell employers that you are not a clockwatcher because your watch is so ghastly that it causes worms to erupt out of the eyes that look directly into the dial.
It also prevents work time diddling and any excessively jiggling with the left hand under a desk will be far to loud to go unnoticed.
Finally, be sure to hit up a pac sun or equivalent and buy the douchebagiest looking charcoal or black oakleys.
Do not wear them, simply place them ontop of over-gelled hair to make sure the people around you are aware that you do "sports stuff" on weekends.
You are now ready to being the transcendence into utter mediocrity.
Helpful side tips:
Wear a wedding ring, whether it be fake or not. This tells the men of the office that you are one of them even if you are not. This also tells women that there might be some reason to actually have sex with you because it appears someone else might be.
Frequently talk about "edgy" topics to make sure people think you are with it. But under no circumstance be actually edgy. Talk about how you want to ride a motorcycle, like whatever "alternative" band that is popular and talk about how you work for charities that only mask problems but not actually solve them. Talk about how you also like to cook but only bring in the lamest and most generic homebaked goods into the office.
And finally, never say these words in a single sentence "south of france," "clubbing," "comme de garcons," "tartare," "meatpacking district," "for the weekend," "cranderosa," "liquid lunch," and "chauffeur." This will instantly detach you of any connections to your bland coworkers.
lol
Lol,orochi.
Ha ha Orochi - very good.
If you are looking for the same level of compensation as a lawyer or banker, become a lawyer or a banker. If you want the job security of a government worker, become one. If you want to destroy the very fabric of American society while enriching yourself to gluttonous proportions, go to work for Goldman Sachs, Big Oil, Pharm or K Street.
But otherwise you've got to leave that stuff at work. Also, try to learn something new each day - stupid and sappy, sure, but it goes a long way into making the day worthwhile. make opportunities for yourself whenever and however possible. It sounds like you bosses already lump a lot of things on you, figure our what would be required to run your own firm and volunteer (yeah, I know, more hours) to do it or mirror what you see at home.
Plus, remember, most people inthe US don't even make 44k a year now and aren't likely to anytime in the near future.
Don't buck up, take charge.
orochi - hahaha,
gotta leave it with you - tell it how it is...
There is a tiny genius who lives inside of me.
I just pour so much booze in there, he just paddles in circles to keep from drowning in the hole that is my life.
I seriously think that serious thought needs to be given to a new, serious, form of the architectural professional model, seriously.
i think there are lots of ways that architecture CAN be a degrading profession. i choose not to let it be.
get into it enough that you get out of it what you need.
wow, this is the most honest thread about the state of the profession i have read here. while net dude's case may be a bit extreme, i think it speaks to the frustrations many young professionals feel. it is tempting to say, "older architects take note," but my feeling is it will likely fall on deaf ears. i think this thread really speaks back to young architects as a call to innovate, change, and take risks. if architects continue to try to do things the twentieth century way of climbing the corporate ladder or expecting the firm to provide a safety net, i think there is the potential that the traditional career architect could go the way of the uaw worker, slipping further and further into irrelevancy.
file makes one of the best points in this thread - after you cut through all the excuses, what are you bringing to the table both in terms of your job and your career?
It is really shocking that so many people still think architecture is not degrading in our society, thinking "that is just your personal issue".
How much more architecture should get degraded before "we" admit realities of our profession?
If not admitting our realities, how could we improve that?
Whether or not you agree with or like personally JPR, he makes some good point here:
http://www.rex-ny.com/approach/yale-building-in-the-future-symposium
And this was back in '06.
Hyper-rational indeed.
A bit late to the discussion, but the way I see it:
netdude's firm doesn't represent the profession (no matter how prevalent it may seem, which I assume is still skewed since people that are unhappy with something is more likely to speak up). The current condition of our profession doesn't represent what our profession can be - and I'm not even factoring in what happened with the economy there. The economy has brought out the ugly side in many businesses outside of our field; our profession wasn't singled out although we were hit harder than most.
The important thing is that we can shape the profession, and needs to be shaped. And its partly the lack of ownership of this profession that has allowed it to weaken, if anything.
The VP of my firm called me into the office one day to discuss something, and he showed me a proposal by a CM firm for a project. Their proposal was nearly 8 figures. While its only a proposal and hasn't been accepted yet, they had the courage to propose this, and felt it could be justified. Its not only shocking that it is nearly 8 figures, it is shocking that they justified this WITHOUT TAKING LIABILITY. The architect and engineering consultants get the fall for this if there is an error/ommission AND even if it goes over budget/ not on schedule (I've done litigation investigation before as the third party).
So while it may seem the CM is way out of line on this, who is the better businessperson? The one taking the liability and smaller fee to design the damn thing, or the person that put themselves in between the architect and owner, gets the project built without taking the liability. Rightfully or not, justified or not, the CMs have put themselves in a better position as a business model.
I've also been noticing a lot of BIM threads on Archinect. Architectural schools should have been teaching it, advancing it, integrating it, experimenting with it, WAY before. (BTW, the BIM model was also in the CM's contract for a large fee). It is ridiculous that while we, as architects and aspiring architects, are the in the best position to leverage this tool yet, we're late in the game and have no idea how to sell it. Instead most are trying to use it to increase profit by thinking it will simply take less time for the same deliverables. If you think that is BIM, you've failed as a businessperson.
And not only are we failing to sell and getting the true value of our services, but our own employees. There is no reason we can't pay our employees overtime. We are devaluing their work, time, skills, talents by not paying for their dedication and time. Basically, if we're not paying for over-time, the employees should share the profit of the firm in some form. Period. (BTW, I do get paid overtime and there is profit-sharing so I'm not writing this in bitterness, but as a matter of fact).
well that's exactly it Slartibartfast. my employers have been screwed over so many times by so many different contracts and clients, even before the recession, that they aren't in the position to do anything more than treat us like slaves. it's a dysfunctional business and has been for a while now.
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