Yep.All you need seems to be a good business start-up plan and your own office.I know easier said than done but being your own boss must be worth the struggle.Maybe you can give consulting a try?
Do what I am doing.
Become a very expensive prostitute and design period ancient postmodern crap for rich, fat clients. You will have to leave your soul at the door though....
Yes I'm looking into changing now and this economy is the BEST time to do it, because unemployment last so long. It gives you time to find something.
I was laid off which was a BLESSING! i literally felt trapped, just like when people are trapped in a bad relationship. I graduated from U OF M and came out with 36,000 dollars debt. My first job I got a HUGE salary of 38,000 thousand a year. My brother Rents cars at Enterprise leasing and he makes 42,000 thousand a year, but everyone was so proud of me. I wasn't proud of myself because I knew I had made the wrong choice. Here's my story!
I'm 24 and I was laid off four months ago. I had been working in the field for 3 years and had just started studying for the ARE. I'm not a negative person in general, actually I'm quite the opposite but this profession has left such a bad taste in my mouth. When I graduated I was heavily recruited and picked a place that I still feel is one of the best places to work within the field,, . Even though I enjoyed the firm my love affair with the profession wained quickly. I hate to beat a dead horse but the salary is without a doubt the worse for any profession out there. Consultants that we are in charge of managing often make more than we do. I questioned every day how my electrical eng. friend with the same amount of experience would make 30 to 35% more than I do when we are working on the same projects. Why are construction superintendants making more than our Project Architects and why are owner's representatives making more than our Project Managers. I'm not ashamed to say after three years I made 42,000 a year and read all over the place that our salaries had rose 30% before the recession. I hate to see what people made before that.
Secondly, the general public that deals with us looks down on the profession. Sure people who never actually use a Architect for anything still think of us as Design Wizards who live in our custom Designed homes,,,Hollywood will never let that vision go,,,, but the actual clients that we work with from day to day; well they spend most of the time browbeating our decisions, haggling our already low fees and constantly asking,,,Why do we need you??? I would come back from meetings feeling like I was worthless.
Thirdly, this profession has NO plans for changing any of the negative things within it and never ever think outside of the box. Why not develop our own projects? Why not create more of an ownership of what we create. For example a BIM model is NOT a set of construction drawings. The owner should not have ownership of it the way they have ownership of our drawings after the project is done. We have the opportunity to take complete control but we aren't!
I am taking this layoff as a blessing. Yes I am one of these Young Architects that will be fleeing the profession. 9 years of my life is enough to a profession that I seriously think has little to offer currently and a pretty bad future ahead.
sounds like you made the right decision
If you dont love architecture, then there is no upside to being an architect
good luck with what you look for next
on the other hand, i disagree a bit with how negative you view the field
"Why not develop our own projects? Why not create more of an ownership of what we create. For example a BIM model is NOT a set of construction drawings. The owner should not have ownership of it the way they have ownership of our drawings after the project is done."
You need the financial backing to develop your own projects. There are firms out there who do this. Go and work for them if you can get a job with them.
Who hands over a BIM model? We only started working in Revit recently at my firm, but i am pretty sure our contract only calls for giving drawings, and maybe exported to AutoCAD. Nothing about the actual BIM model, except maybe at the very end of the project for a record. Worth checking out though, i am curious
overall, you seem very jaded against the profession
If you would prefer to write electrical schedules all day to make more money, become an electrical engineer.
But i think your experience isnt necessarily universal, and shouldnt really be portrayed that way
it has little to offer you, which may be true
This profession isnt for everyone, just like every other profession also isnt for everyone
Doesnt make them terrible
Just came out of the hospital after having serious surgery. I've spent there about a week and had enough time to reflect on the profession of architecture. It's funny how we compare ourselves with doctors and want the same payment, while the doctor is the one that saved my life and gave my my health back. What contribution do architects have to society? I can't imagine a world without doctors, yet a world without architecture is like a world without ice cream. Big deal...nobody gives a fuck.
Architecture is a nice hobby, but it's just a hobby. It's not rocket science especially if you compare that to what doctors, physicist, biologist etc. do.
I think with any field its about finding one's niche. Without a particular niche that you're happy with and that differentiates yourself from others in your particular market, you're always going to be a commodity, and you'll be doing commodity work. This goes for lawyers (I know plenty of 10th year associates at big firms who make lots of money doing jobs that sound essentially clerical to me), bankers, graphic designers, people in publishing and advertising, and just about any other field I can think about.
The reality is that only a few of us will ultimately find a niche doing building-based high-design work - just because each project only needs one of those, whilst most projects need at least 2-3 and as many as 20-30 or more juniors who don't have that role. But there are so many other possible niches, many of which are very interesting, financially rewarding, value-added and full of exciting intellectual content. I'm quite happy, for example, with what I do, and I clearly don't do building design. I do urban design strategies for sustainability, as a specialized consultant).. but I do shape the form and function of urban environments in a way many building designers could only dream.
So I guess the question is.. what is your niche and what are you doing to find it?
"You're either serious about what you do or you're not serious about what you do."
And he wasn't just talking about music: you don't have to be a doctor or physicist to take what you do seriously and do it well: you have to bring your own intensity to what you do...and architecture is not a fucking hobby, bro, it's serious and stimulating work, if you approach it that way.
i would say if you only view it as a hobby, you shouldnt be an architect
of course, if it is just a hobby, then there is no reason to complain about the salary, but i hardly expect anyone to stop complaining about that around here
thats a good quote Emilio
if all you do is worry about how much you are getting paid at your job, you are probably not that serious about it, which means you probably should be in a different line of work
If there's no architect, who would build the hospital where docters work? and where you had took rest to be recovered? and who would build the factory where all the medicine that you got prescribed for are manufactured?
What we are doing wrong doesn't mean we are useless.
I believe we, as architects, can correct what we have messed up.
Lanah I'm with you...bailing after ten years and a recent pass of the A.R.E....I've had enough of this pathetic lifestyle.
What are you going to do? I'm thinking about structural engineering or some other engineering field where I can make some decent money and get some decent amount of respect from others and for myself.
Engineering, Law, Business, Medicine I shall investigate in that order.
I am confused as to what everyone thought they were getting into? None of what is driving people away seems like a surprise at all
and are these things just a factor of where you worked? I assume you have tried just going to different firms and doing different kinds of work?
And would you really spend all the time it takes to get into medicine after 10 years in architecture? or law for that matter, though i dont know how much school is involved with that?
marmkid, the profession has really gone downhill in the last ten years. I entered it with the expectation that it would at least pay for itself but unfortunately the artists have swamped the boat.
I spent 7 years to get an MArch, 5 years in training to take the A.R.E., 1 1/2 years to take the examination and pass it...for what? I can't even find a 35,000 dollar job.
I have engineer friends who are actually trusted by society to solve problems. Unfortunately, architects only create them at this point and society obviously isn't going to pay for more problems.
My best friend from college graduated in 4 years with his engineering degree (same age). He was making 57k right out of school 8 years ago and is making 110k now.
All I have are 60k in student loans and no job to make the monthly payments for the next 20 years.
I've spent 5 years arguing with myself to just be patient and things would work out. I should have trusted my common sense in the first place: too many designers/ decorators/ 2D thinkers/ artists trouble makers in the profession and not enough problem solvers.
Think about it everyone: We are supposed to be the best problem solvers in the Market and we can't even keep our own profession afloat. There are major things wrong here. I'm bailing. You can keep the mediocre pay and zero respect as that is all this contemporary profession deserves, truth be told.
i havent seen the respect part you are talking about
but if it is money you are concerned with, those are all obviously better paying fields
and i am quite satisfied with my pay even in these economic times
besides, part of being an architect that i value is that i feel the work is much more interesting than those other careers you mention, at least for me
So i am ok if my pay isnt 100k after 8 years as i am doing something that i find interesting
heck, if it was just about the money, i would have never gone into this field
The job satisfaction and interest level is very compensating
but those other fields dont interest me the same, so it balances out
and i havent had your experiences with respect and salary issues also
thanks marmkid, I'll definitely be needing all the luck I can get.
I'm sure the credential of Reg. Arch will not be helping me much unless I want to demean/ humiliate myself. (of course, within the walls of the profession all archs glorify themselves and their worth to society but really, a society will pay you what it thinks you are worth. Since the salary of an arch is about 1/2 that of someone with the same no. of years of experience in another field, the average architect is worth about 1/2 a person...so it takes 2 archs to solve the same problem that the average 1 engineer can).
i think that is a bit of an exageration to say that the only worth of being a registered architect is to demean and humiliate yourself
lets be honest
if you switch to law or medicine, you will be completely starting over
why would your arch experience help you in that?
if you were going the opposite way, your medical degree would mean nothing in helping you in architecture
it sounds like you have worked with a bunch of elitists, both architects and everyone else
I am glad my experience hasnt been the same
And i have almost 8 years now
I wish I had worked with elitists and I wish the profession was saturated with people who had aspirations to excel. Unfortunately my experience has taught me that most intelligence was boiled off in Arch School and anyone with half a brain was weeded out into other professions.
The problem is that too many contemporary architects don't aspire to much else besides boozing up on the weekends, partying with the local hippy crowd, and fraternizing with the perpetually homeless.
Then, to top it all off they have gutted the profitability of the profession in the name of some sort of notion of avoiding elitism simply for the sake of pretending to be just as witless and penniless as the next guy. Not smart. Quite stupid actually.
A lot of my Arch friends my age are laid off (60%?). You think the AIA cares? Talk about "elites"...
Not one of my engineer friends has been laid off, in fact, a close friend was just hired at a big local Arch company while they simultaneously laid off 1/2 the arch crew.
exactly. Case in point. Can't have a sterile, objective conversation that stays focused on addressing the fundamentals of a problem. Main ideas get lost in perceived "insults" and "offenses". The contemporary architecture profession will continue to be overrun with hordes of artists with zero talent and all the aspirations of becoming the quintesssential emotional engineer.
Curious, are you licensed marmkid? Or is that a sensitive topic as well (as it usually is the well guarded secret that many masquerade as Architects but actually can't even legally call themselves such)? The reason I ask isn't to insult it is just to see if you actually have any right to speak for the profession in the first place.
Unfortunately I will always be an Architect because I am Licensed. Quite the paradox. I do wish I had the last ten years and my 60k back! No use crying over spilled milk...will just have to pour it in another glass this time that actually has a bottom.
i was having a completely decent conversation with you, even while you were ranting about all your problems
If you want to have a conversation about the situation, that is fine
If you want to whine about how everyone you have ever worked with disrespects you, and then claim anyone who has half a brain would not be an architect, i dont really care to continue, as its not a conversation, it is just someone very bitter
Given everything i have heard from you, i am really not at all offended by anything you say
I am in the middle of taking my exams now
Not really a sensitive subject, but thank you for jumping to conclusions. And i love how you claim i am "speaking for the profession". I am not sure where that one came from, but i assure, you, i am not speaking for the profession, but have worked for several years in it and can speak on my experiences with it. Are you speaking for the profession, just because you have your license?
if you feel you have wasted the past 10 years, that is fine. You need to accept that your view isnt the only one though about this profession
The "major" problem with architecture profession now is the supply and demand.Too many architects or designers and not enough projects. Ok.Can we move on now?
"Emo"s...sheesh...they've been the nail in the ol' coffin of the profession. R.I.P. Architect as Master Builder. Gravestone reads: Here lies a once noble pursuit which was sent to its final resting place by the hordes of invading emos masquerading as artists.
No the real problem Parad0xx86 is that contemporary architects have legitimized themselves and their vocation by morphing into Master designers of problems instead of Master builders of solutions (as they used to be).
Society doesn't trust architects to solve their complex problems any more. Perhaps, sure, they value the architect as much as the local artist who acts as the force which crystallizes and embalms the present culture (however deprave) for future generations but that is the extent of it.
Practical problem solving? Forget about it...architects just draw pretty pictures and strange blobby shaped, theory soaked, nonsensical, whimsical buildings that are better suited as the backdrop for a scene from nightmare on elmstreet or Teletubbies.
No the real problem Parad0xx86 is that contemporary architects have completely DElegitimized themselves and their vocation by morphing into Master designers of problems instead of Master builders of solutions (as they used to be).
Society doesn't trust architects to solve their complex problems any more. Perhaps, sure, they value the architect as much as the local artist who acts as the force which crystallizes and embalms the present culture (however deprave) for future generations but that is the extent of it.
Practical problem solving? Forget about it...architects just draw pretty pictures and strange blobby shaped, theory soaked, nonsensical, whimsical buildings that are better suited as the backdrop for a scene from nightmare on elmstreet or Teletubbies.
Don't worry Pig, the emo-influx thing is just because it's really hip to be an architecture student or recent grad right now. It'll wear off once the bastards find something else that pays poorly (generally) and allows you to have a special title. Trust me, it's a fad, and it will all be over soon. The die-hards will bring the profession back to its former glory once the children move on.
NO...once the emo flies and maggots have had their fill of the rotting corpse it will be as dead as roadkill. Unfortunately this fad looks like it will last too long.
Nah, he's a bit redundant in his last post. Rotting corpses are as dead as roadkill long before the flies and maggots get to them. I would have used a quirky but prudent reference, which as an unlicensed, uneducated wannabe architect I have no authority to come up with now. Piggy? With your six months of licensure, previous work experience, and 5-8 years of education, what would you recommend? I was thinking an cliched movement or architect would work well, but it's probably fine to expand beyond the discipline. Like pet rocks. "dead as pet rocks" has a nice ring to it, and at least two meanings.
NLW2 is probably an interior designer who loves it when the architect owner of the firm tells the GC he is sending out his best Architect and then they get to go out and play make believe.
Architects are paid relatively little for the work exerted and the external benefits entailed compared with say, lawyers. But I don't believe that this factor is enough to warrant architecture as degrading.
whether or not this is relevant i want to contribute to this blog so here goes: the profession has been good, bad, and ugly for me over these past 35-40 years since graduating from school. i've worked for mid-sized firms and i've worked for small firms; finally "on my own" since 81'. the resounding thread that i read is we architects are over "worked and underpaid". sad but true unless you happen to lucky (not good), an ivy grad (connections), independently wealthy, a developer/architect/real estate maven or privileged (like prince charles). it doesn't really matter where the money comes from as long as it comes - and the client is ready, willing, able and eager to pay you for the service you are providing. we learned through time, teachers, and codes that we are the ones responsible for the "life, health, safety, and welfare" of the occupants, users, and inhabitants of the structures we design. not unlike the doctors who perform the surgery on you, or the dentist that extracts that bothersome tooth, or OMG that lawyer who sues on your behalf - but gets their 33% of the take prior to you receiving your cut of the settlement. whew! why do we go on? is it our inner FLW or howard roark that drives us? i don't know. but what i do know is that the profession of architecture in the USA has been so demeaned over these last 50 years that for anyone to hire an architect today - the clients expectation of what the profession is to provide for them far exceeds what actually is provided. when the client is ready to really invest in the success of their project instead of just paying for the service to get through the required governing agencies - then and only then will you the licensed design professional will be paid accordingly well.
as for the unhappy employee working in the dead end large office doing details? - isn't it better to have a position now rather than walking the street seeking employment? or does the older/senior architect have an responsibility/opportunity to teach?
It's really quite simple
If you feel architecture is degrading to you, then you shouldnt be an architect
Why would anyone want a career they felt was degrading?
Just like i feel it would be degrading to do the same tedious, mundane (to me anyway) work day in and day out for my career
Which is part of the reason i like architecture
It's not for everyone, just like being a lawyer or a doctor or a teacher is not for everyone
keep up the good fight, marmkid. this thread has a LOT of gross generalizations and downright misstatements, but you've kept defending your ground.
after 19 yrs, coming up through internship to partnership, i've weathered a couple of recessions now. this is not the worst time i've seen. but the attitudes are worse than ever: instead of plowing through, keeping their passion for architecture alive while working in a mall or something, i encounter/hear so many people acting as if architecture OWES them something. bullshit.
it's a hard job. it pays well, but not as well as some other things. if you're graduating right now, no, you probably won't find a job that meets the criteria you set for yourself. (i didn't either.)
if you're passionate about architecture, you'll keep at it, doing work on the side, reading, thinking, and, yes maybe selling cookies or books at the mall.
when things turn, those who didn't have the passion will be gone from the profession. those who did will be positioned to jump. if you act like the profession owes you something, you will probably fail. if you drive yourself and keep up your skills and make yourself valuable to the first person who is ready to hire, you'll likely be a good candidate.
yeah it seems like there is a lot of instant gratification type attitude out there these days
someone comes out of school and expects to be leading the design on the same types of projects they did in school
your dream job wont be right when you graduate, or even a couple years after
but why should that be any different as it is in any other profession?
Lawyers have to gain experience
Doctors have to gain experience
The only difference is they perhaps get paid a little bit better to start
I doubt there are medical internet boards or lawyer internet boards where people in their 20's and 30's are complaining like we get here
It's your career, and you have to build towards making it your career. It wont happen overnight, and it takes several years
There will be down times, that perhaps last a while (like now with the economy).
but every time i hear someone whining about having to do bathroom details or anything they dont think they SHOULD be doing, i have to laugh at that
If you think you are above any of the work, then you really shouldnt be an architect, because it all comes with the job.
it seems no one has any patience these days for anything, let alone their careers
It's not a question about architecture owes us anything. It's about paying the student loan, which is the least you should be able to do after investing thousands of dollars in an education. That's the difference. ALL other professionals can easily pay back their debt after college and take care of their families. Is that too much to ask for? Where are not talking about big cars, big houses, being a partner at a firm at 29, but just being able to pay the medical bills for your child, the mortgage, bread and the student loan. That's it. Every architect is willing to put in years and wait till the big check comes in, but no one (architect or not) can accept the fact that you make less than a shoe salesman that doesn't even have a student loan.
that is a valid concern harold, and one i agree with as well (though i think saying that is the only concern around here isnt really true given all the complaining that happens here)
i wonder, how long does a doctor or lawyer on average take to pay back their student loans?
I think it's probably better to study and be an architect if you were in one of those european countries that pay you to go to school. What a sweet life to have them pay you a stipend to attend higher education. I on the other hand don't envy the states and their education system that enslaves generations to mountains of debt.
after graduating one of the more expensive private arch schools (tulane) in '91, starting my first arch job at $9/hr a full year later in 1992, and not breaking the $10/hr mark until 1995, by 2000 my loans were retired. in 2000, i was not yet registered and my total salary for the year was just over $41k, the first year i broke out of the $30ks.
for two years i had applied/got hardship forbearance from my lender, deferring my student loan payments.
after that, i paid only what was required for several years.
by '98 i started paying more aggressively.
are you going to get rid of student loan debt immediately, or even within 5 years? unlikely. and unnecessary.
this is not a 'uphill both ways in the snow' story, it's a story about doing what it takes and, like marmkid said, having patience. i don't know your situation, harold, but it's do-able.
marmkid -Except others are still valued by the marketplace. (so they still generally have jobs if they want to work and can make a living at the same time).
I dont follow, Piggy
do you mean currently, in this economy?
This bad economy has hit architects and construction related careers hard, that is true
I dont think architects are unvalued or cant make a living though
Many fields are struggling heavily during this recession
We all have to struggle through and do our best to make it through until things turn around. But once they do, i think architects will be able to make a good living once again
Hopefully having learned some lessons from the past couple of years to improve our profession as a whole
The problem is that too many contemporary architects don't aspire to much else besides boozing up on the weekends, partying with the local hippy crowd, and fraternizing with the perpetually homeless.
maybe you should stop trying to practice architecture in Daytona Beach or Cancun during spring break.....
the OP net dude said, "I've been working in Architecture for 10 years now and the conclusion I've come to is that being an Architect ( I'm recently licensed ) is degrading and bad for one's mental health..."
Then he proceeded to explain why.
I am licensed, ten years experience and I couldn't agree more with his basic premise.
Observing all the simple minded and myopic, masochistic aspiring architects in my generation esp. in the online environment where the transparency of thought makes the realities of the profession much more tangible (archinect, areforum) convinces me that its time to bail out of this sinking ship. Of course, I don't think for 1 second that the FAIA and AIAs who are steering the ship into the rocks are going to let on that the profession is on a collision course with insolvency and illegitimacy in the marketplace (as if it hasn't already been ramming into those rocks for ten years now).
Is Architecture degrading or is it just Me?
Yep.All you need seems to be a good business start-up plan and your own office.I know easier said than done but being your own boss must be worth the struggle.Maybe you can give consulting a try?
look into exhibit design/engineering more creativity and less codes/etc...
I'll do your business plan for free*.
*Letter of Recommendation.
Do what I am doing.
Become a very expensive prostitute and design period ancient postmodern crap for rich, fat clients. You will have to leave your soul at the door though....
Yes I'm looking into changing now and this economy is the BEST time to do it, because unemployment last so long. It gives you time to find something.
I was laid off which was a BLESSING! i literally felt trapped, just like when people are trapped in a bad relationship. I graduated from U OF M and came out with 36,000 dollars debt. My first job I got a HUGE salary of 38,000 thousand a year. My brother Rents cars at Enterprise leasing and he makes 42,000 thousand a year, but everyone was so proud of me. I wasn't proud of myself because I knew I had made the wrong choice. Here's my story!
I'm 24 and I was laid off four months ago. I had been working in the field for 3 years and had just started studying for the ARE. I'm not a negative person in general, actually I'm quite the opposite but this profession has left such a bad taste in my mouth. When I graduated I was heavily recruited and picked a place that I still feel is one of the best places to work within the field,, . Even though I enjoyed the firm my love affair with the profession wained quickly. I hate to beat a dead horse but the salary is without a doubt the worse for any profession out there. Consultants that we are in charge of managing often make more than we do. I questioned every day how my electrical eng. friend with the same amount of experience would make 30 to 35% more than I do when we are working on the same projects. Why are construction superintendants making more than our Project Architects and why are owner's representatives making more than our Project Managers. I'm not ashamed to say after three years I made 42,000 a year and read all over the place that our salaries had rose 30% before the recession. I hate to see what people made before that.
Secondly, the general public that deals with us looks down on the profession. Sure people who never actually use a Architect for anything still think of us as Design Wizards who live in our custom Designed homes,,,Hollywood will never let that vision go,,,, but the actual clients that we work with from day to day; well they spend most of the time browbeating our decisions, haggling our already low fees and constantly asking,,,Why do we need you??? I would come back from meetings feeling like I was worthless.
Thirdly, this profession has NO plans for changing any of the negative things within it and never ever think outside of the box. Why not develop our own projects? Why not create more of an ownership of what we create. For example a BIM model is NOT a set of construction drawings. The owner should not have ownership of it the way they have ownership of our drawings after the project is done. We have the opportunity to take complete control but we aren't!
I am taking this layoff as a blessing. Yes I am one of these Young Architects that will be fleeing the profession. 9 years of my life is enough to a profession that I seriously think has little to offer currently and a pretty bad future ahead.
sounds like you made the right decision
If you dont love architecture, then there is no upside to being an architect
good luck with what you look for next
on the other hand, i disagree a bit with how negative you view the field
"Why not develop our own projects? Why not create more of an ownership of what we create. For example a BIM model is NOT a set of construction drawings. The owner should not have ownership of it the way they have ownership of our drawings after the project is done."
You need the financial backing to develop your own projects. There are firms out there who do this. Go and work for them if you can get a job with them.
Who hands over a BIM model? We only started working in Revit recently at my firm, but i am pretty sure our contract only calls for giving drawings, and maybe exported to AutoCAD. Nothing about the actual BIM model, except maybe at the very end of the project for a record. Worth checking out though, i am curious
overall, you seem very jaded against the profession
If you would prefer to write electrical schedules all day to make more money, become an electrical engineer.
But i think your experience isnt necessarily universal, and shouldnt really be portrayed that way
it has little to offer you, which may be true
This profession isnt for everyone, just like every other profession also isnt for everyone
Doesnt make them terrible
Just came out of the hospital after having serious surgery. I've spent there about a week and had enough time to reflect on the profession of architecture. It's funny how we compare ourselves with doctors and want the same payment, while the doctor is the one that saved my life and gave my my health back. What contribution do architects have to society? I can't imagine a world without doctors, yet a world without architecture is like a world without ice cream. Big deal...nobody gives a fuck.
Architecture is a nice hobby, but it's just a hobby. It's not rocket science especially if you compare that to what doctors, physicist, biologist etc. do.
while i agree about the medical profession, i think calling architecture a hobby is a bit extreme
if you compare anything to doctors and physicists, etc, you can call anything a hobby
I think with any field its about finding one's niche. Without a particular niche that you're happy with and that differentiates yourself from others in your particular market, you're always going to be a commodity, and you'll be doing commodity work. This goes for lawyers (I know plenty of 10th year associates at big firms who make lots of money doing jobs that sound essentially clerical to me), bankers, graphic designers, people in publishing and advertising, and just about any other field I can think about.
The reality is that only a few of us will ultimately find a niche doing building-based high-design work - just because each project only needs one of those, whilst most projects need at least 2-3 and as many as 20-30 or more juniors who don't have that role. But there are so many other possible niches, many of which are very interesting, financially rewarding, value-added and full of exciting intellectual content. I'm quite happy, for example, with what I do, and I clearly don't do building design. I do urban design strategies for sustainability, as a specialized consultant).. but I do shape the form and function of urban environments in a way many building designers could only dream.
So I guess the question is.. what is your niche and what are you doing to find it?
Bob Dylan once said this in an interview:
"You're either serious about what you do or you're not serious about what you do."
And he wasn't just talking about music: you don't have to be a doctor or physicist to take what you do seriously and do it well: you have to bring your own intensity to what you do...and architecture is not a fucking hobby, bro, it's serious and stimulating work, if you approach it that way.
i would say if you only view it as a hobby, you shouldnt be an architect
of course, if it is just a hobby, then there is no reason to complain about the salary, but i hardly expect anyone to stop complaining about that around here
thats a good quote Emilio
if all you do is worry about how much you are getting paid at your job, you are probably not that serious about it, which means you probably should be in a different line of work
Hey, harold.
If there's no architect, who would build the hospital where docters work? and where you had took rest to be recovered? and who would build the factory where all the medicine that you got prescribed for are manufactured?
What we are doing wrong doesn't mean we are useless.
I believe we, as architects, can correct what we have messed up.
Lanah I'm with you...bailing after ten years and a recent pass of the A.R.E....I've had enough of this pathetic lifestyle.
What are you going to do? I'm thinking about structural engineering or some other engineering field where I can make some decent money and get some decent amount of respect from others and for myself.
Engineering, Law, Business, Medicine I shall investigate in that order.
I am confused as to what everyone thought they were getting into? None of what is driving people away seems like a surprise at all
and are these things just a factor of where you worked? I assume you have tried just going to different firms and doing different kinds of work?
And would you really spend all the time it takes to get into medicine after 10 years in architecture? or law for that matter, though i dont know how much school is involved with that?
marmkid, the profession has really gone downhill in the last ten years. I entered it with the expectation that it would at least pay for itself but unfortunately the artists have swamped the boat.
I spent 7 years to get an MArch, 5 years in training to take the A.R.E., 1 1/2 years to take the examination and pass it...for what? I can't even find a 35,000 dollar job.
I have engineer friends who are actually trusted by society to solve problems. Unfortunately, architects only create them at this point and society obviously isn't going to pay for more problems.
My best friend from college graduated in 4 years with his engineering degree (same age). He was making 57k right out of school 8 years ago and is making 110k now.
All I have are 60k in student loans and no job to make the monthly payments for the next 20 years.
I've spent 5 years arguing with myself to just be patient and things would work out. I should have trusted my common sense in the first place: too many designers/ decorators/ 2D thinkers/ artists trouble makers in the profession and not enough problem solvers.
Think about it everyone: We are supposed to be the best problem solvers in the Market and we can't even keep our own profession afloat. There are major things wrong here. I'm bailing. You can keep the mediocre pay and zero respect as that is all this contemporary profession deserves, truth be told.
i havent seen the respect part you are talking about
but if it is money you are concerned with, those are all obviously better paying fields
and i am quite satisfied with my pay even in these economic times
besides, part of being an architect that i value is that i feel the work is much more interesting than those other careers you mention, at least for me
So i am ok if my pay isnt 100k after 8 years as i am doing something that i find interesting
heck, if it was just about the money, i would have never gone into this field
The job satisfaction and interest level is very compensating
but those other fields dont interest me the same, so it balances out
and i havent had your experiences with respect and salary issues also
good luck in your next career move
thanks marmkid, I'll definitely be needing all the luck I can get.
I'm sure the credential of Reg. Arch will not be helping me much unless I want to demean/ humiliate myself. (of course, within the walls of the profession all archs glorify themselves and their worth to society but really, a society will pay you what it thinks you are worth. Since the salary of an arch is about 1/2 that of someone with the same no. of years of experience in another field, the average architect is worth about 1/2 a person...so it takes 2 archs to solve the same problem that the average 1 engineer can).
i think that is a bit of an exageration to say that the only worth of being a registered architect is to demean and humiliate yourself
lets be honest
if you switch to law or medicine, you will be completely starting over
why would your arch experience help you in that?
if you were going the opposite way, your medical degree would mean nothing in helping you in architecture
it sounds like you have worked with a bunch of elitists, both architects and everyone else
I am glad my experience hasnt been the same
And i have almost 8 years now
I wish I had worked with elitists and I wish the profession was saturated with people who had aspirations to excel. Unfortunately my experience has taught me that most intelligence was boiled off in Arch School and anyone with half a brain was weeded out into other professions.
The problem is that too many contemporary architects don't aspire to much else besides boozing up on the weekends, partying with the local hippy crowd, and fraternizing with the perpetually homeless.
Then, to top it all off they have gutted the profitability of the profession in the name of some sort of notion of avoiding elitism simply for the sake of pretending to be just as witless and penniless as the next guy. Not smart. Quite stupid actually.
A lot of my Arch friends my age are laid off (60%?). You think the AIA cares? Talk about "elites"...
Not one of my engineer friends has been laid off, in fact, a close friend was just hired at a big local Arch company while they simultaneously laid off 1/2 the arch crew.
Ship of fools.
"anyone with half a brain was weeded out into other professions."
there isnt much need to insult everyone here just because you dont want to be an architect anymore
exactly. Case in point. Can't have a sterile, objective conversation that stays focused on addressing the fundamentals of a problem. Main ideas get lost in perceived "insults" and "offenses". The contemporary architecture profession will continue to be overrun with hordes of artists with zero talent and all the aspirations of becoming the quintesssential emotional engineer.
Curious, are you licensed marmkid? Or is that a sensitive topic as well (as it usually is the well guarded secret that many masquerade as Architects but actually can't even legally call themselves such)? The reason I ask isn't to insult it is just to see if you actually have any right to speak for the profession in the first place.
Unfortunately I will always be an Architect because I am Licensed. Quite the paradox. I do wish I had the last ten years and my 60k back! No use crying over spilled milk...will just have to pour it in another glass this time that actually has a bottom.
i was having a completely decent conversation with you, even while you were ranting about all your problems
If you want to have a conversation about the situation, that is fine
If you want to whine about how everyone you have ever worked with disrespects you, and then claim anyone who has half a brain would not be an architect, i dont really care to continue, as its not a conversation, it is just someone very bitter
Given everything i have heard from you, i am really not at all offended by anything you say
I am in the middle of taking my exams now
Not really a sensitive subject, but thank you for jumping to conclusions. And i love how you claim i am "speaking for the profession". I am not sure where that one came from, but i assure, you, i am not speaking for the profession, but have worked for several years in it and can speak on my experiences with it. Are you speaking for the profession, just because you have your license?
if you feel you have wasted the past 10 years, that is fine. You need to accept that your view isnt the only one though about this profession
The "major" problem with architecture profession now is the supply and demand.Too many architects or designers and not enough projects. Ok.Can we move on now?
"Emo"s...sheesh...they've been the nail in the ol' coffin of the profession. R.I.P. Architect as Master Builder. Gravestone reads: Here lies a once noble pursuit which was sent to its final resting place by the hordes of invading emos masquerading as artists.
No the real problem Parad0xx86 is that contemporary architects have legitimized themselves and their vocation by morphing into Master designers of problems instead of Master builders of solutions (as they used to be).
Society doesn't trust architects to solve their complex problems any more. Perhaps, sure, they value the architect as much as the local artist who acts as the force which crystallizes and embalms the present culture (however deprave) for future generations but that is the extent of it.
Practical problem solving? Forget about it...architects just draw pretty pictures and strange blobby shaped, theory soaked, nonsensical, whimsical buildings that are better suited as the backdrop for a scene from nightmare on elmstreet or Teletubbies.
No the real problem Parad0xx86 is that contemporary architects have completely DElegitimized themselves and their vocation by morphing into Master designers of problems instead of Master builders of solutions (as they used to be).
Society doesn't trust architects to solve their complex problems any more. Perhaps, sure, they value the architect as much as the local artist who acts as the force which crystallizes and embalms the present culture (however deprave) for future generations but that is the extent of it.
Practical problem solving? Forget about it...architects just draw pretty pictures and strange blobby shaped, theory soaked, nonsensical, whimsical buildings that are better suited as the backdrop for a scene from nightmare on elmstreet or Teletubbies.
post above contains important edit of preliminary post just above it.
Don't worry Pig, the emo-influx thing is just because it's really hip to be an architecture student or recent grad right now. It'll wear off once the bastards find something else that pays poorly (generally) and allows you to have a special title. Trust me, it's a fad, and it will all be over soon. The die-hards will bring the profession back to its former glory once the children move on.
NO...once the emo flies and maggots have had their fill of the rotting corpse it will be as dead as roadkill. Unfortunately this fad looks like it will last too long.
Degrading. Literally.
you exhibit linguistic prowess, piggy.
Nah, he's a bit redundant in his last post. Rotting corpses are as dead as roadkill long before the flies and maggots get to them. I would have used a quirky but prudent reference, which as an unlicensed, uneducated wannabe architect I have no authority to come up with now. Piggy? With your six months of licensure, previous work experience, and 5-8 years of education, what would you recommend? I was thinking an cliched movement or architect would work well, but it's probably fine to expand beyond the discipline. Like pet rocks. "dead as pet rocks" has a nice ring to it, and at least two meanings.
NLW2 is probably an interior designer who loves it when the architect owner of the firm tells the GC he is sending out his best Architect and then they get to go out and play make believe.
Architects are paid relatively little for the work exerted and the external benefits entailed compared with say, lawyers. But I don't believe that this factor is enough to warrant architecture as degrading.
whether or not this is relevant i want to contribute to this blog so here goes: the profession has been good, bad, and ugly for me over these past 35-40 years since graduating from school. i've worked for mid-sized firms and i've worked for small firms; finally "on my own" since 81'. the resounding thread that i read is we architects are over "worked and underpaid". sad but true unless you happen to lucky (not good), an ivy grad (connections), independently wealthy, a developer/architect/real estate maven or privileged (like prince charles). it doesn't really matter where the money comes from as long as it comes - and the client is ready, willing, able and eager to pay you for the service you are providing. we learned through time, teachers, and codes that we are the ones responsible for the "life, health, safety, and welfare" of the occupants, users, and inhabitants of the structures we design. not unlike the doctors who perform the surgery on you, or the dentist that extracts that bothersome tooth, or OMG that lawyer who sues on your behalf - but gets their 33% of the take prior to you receiving your cut of the settlement. whew! why do we go on? is it our inner FLW or howard roark that drives us? i don't know. but what i do know is that the profession of architecture in the USA has been so demeaned over these last 50 years that for anyone to hire an architect today - the clients expectation of what the profession is to provide for them far exceeds what actually is provided. when the client is ready to really invest in the success of their project instead of just paying for the service to get through the required governing agencies - then and only then will you the licensed design professional will be paid accordingly well.
as for the unhappy employee working in the dead end large office doing details? - isn't it better to have a position now rather than walking the street seeking employment? or does the older/senior architect have an responsibility/opportunity to teach?
Man, threads like these make me second guess grad school constantly.
It's really quite simple
If you feel architecture is degrading to you, then you shouldnt be an architect
Why would anyone want a career they felt was degrading?
Just like i feel it would be degrading to do the same tedious, mundane (to me anyway) work day in and day out for my career
Which is part of the reason i like architecture
It's not for everyone, just like being a lawyer or a doctor or a teacher is not for everyone
keep up the good fight, marmkid. this thread has a LOT of gross generalizations and downright misstatements, but you've kept defending your ground.
after 19 yrs, coming up through internship to partnership, i've weathered a couple of recessions now. this is not the worst time i've seen. but the attitudes are worse than ever: instead of plowing through, keeping their passion for architecture alive while working in a mall or something, i encounter/hear so many people acting as if architecture OWES them something. bullshit.
it's a hard job. it pays well, but not as well as some other things. if you're graduating right now, no, you probably won't find a job that meets the criteria you set for yourself. (i didn't either.)
if you're passionate about architecture, you'll keep at it, doing work on the side, reading, thinking, and, yes maybe selling cookies or books at the mall.
when things turn, those who didn't have the passion will be gone from the profession. those who did will be positioned to jump. if you act like the profession owes you something, you will probably fail. if you drive yourself and keep up your skills and make yourself valuable to the first person who is ready to hire, you'll likely be a good candidate.
yeah it seems like there is a lot of instant gratification type attitude out there these days
someone comes out of school and expects to be leading the design on the same types of projects they did in school
your dream job wont be right when you graduate, or even a couple years after
but why should that be any different as it is in any other profession?
Lawyers have to gain experience
Doctors have to gain experience
The only difference is they perhaps get paid a little bit better to start
I doubt there are medical internet boards or lawyer internet boards where people in their 20's and 30's are complaining like we get here
It's your career, and you have to build towards making it your career. It wont happen overnight, and it takes several years
There will be down times, that perhaps last a while (like now with the economy).
but every time i hear someone whining about having to do bathroom details or anything they dont think they SHOULD be doing, i have to laugh at that
If you think you are above any of the work, then you really shouldnt be an architect, because it all comes with the job.
it seems no one has any patience these days for anything, let alone their careers
It's not a question about architecture owes us anything. It's about paying the student loan, which is the least you should be able to do after investing thousands of dollars in an education. That's the difference. ALL other professionals can easily pay back their debt after college and take care of their families. Is that too much to ask for? Where are not talking about big cars, big houses, being a partner at a firm at 29, but just being able to pay the medical bills for your child, the mortgage, bread and the student loan. That's it. Every architect is willing to put in years and wait till the big check comes in, but no one (architect or not) can accept the fact that you make less than a shoe salesman that doesn't even have a student loan.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2735/4324889097_efa224cb64_o.jpg
Architecture... demystified.
Worked backward from simple facts and general assumptions about business operations.
Sloppy but on point! Enjoy!
that is a valid concern harold, and one i agree with as well (though i think saying that is the only concern around here isnt really true given all the complaining that happens here)
i wonder, how long does a doctor or lawyer on average take to pay back their student loans?
I think it's probably better to study and be an architect if you were in one of those european countries that pay you to go to school. What a sweet life to have them pay you a stipend to attend higher education. I on the other hand don't envy the states and their education system that enslaves generations to mountains of debt.
yeah ideally that would be much better
though its not just architects who have to deal with student loans, so we really aren't in much of a different position than a lot of others
after graduating one of the more expensive private arch schools (tulane) in '91, starting my first arch job at $9/hr a full year later in 1992, and not breaking the $10/hr mark until 1995, by 2000 my loans were retired. in 2000, i was not yet registered and my total salary for the year was just over $41k, the first year i broke out of the $30ks.
for two years i had applied/got hardship forbearance from my lender, deferring my student loan payments.
after that, i paid only what was required for several years.
by '98 i started paying more aggressively.
are you going to get rid of student loan debt immediately, or even within 5 years? unlikely. and unnecessary.
this is not a 'uphill both ways in the snow' story, it's a story about doing what it takes and, like marmkid said, having patience. i don't know your situation, harold, but it's do-able.
marmkid -Except others are still valued by the marketplace. (so they still generally have jobs if they want to work and can make a living at the same time).
I dont follow, Piggy
do you mean currently, in this economy?
This bad economy has hit architects and construction related careers hard, that is true
I dont think architects are unvalued or cant make a living though
Many fields are struggling heavily during this recession
We all have to struggle through and do our best to make it through until things turn around. But once they do, i think architects will be able to make a good living once again
Hopefully having learned some lessons from the past couple of years to improve our profession as a whole
maybe you should stop trying to practice architecture in Daytona Beach or Cancun during spring break.....
the OP net dude said, "I've been working in Architecture for 10 years now and the conclusion I've come to is that being an Architect ( I'm recently licensed ) is degrading and bad for one's mental health..."
Then he proceeded to explain why.
I am licensed, ten years experience and I couldn't agree more with his basic premise.
Observing all the simple minded and myopic, masochistic aspiring architects in my generation esp. in the online environment where the transparency of thought makes the realities of the profession much more tangible (archinect, areforum) convinces me that its time to bail out of this sinking ship. Of course, I don't think for 1 second that the FAIA and AIAs who are steering the ship into the rocks are going to let on that the profession is on a collision course with insolvency and illegitimacy in the marketplace (as if it hasn't already been ramming into those rocks for ten years now).
then what is keeping you as an architect and posting on an architecture online forum?
seems like your mind is pretty well made up
i agree completely
If you think a profession is degrading and bad for your mental health, i would definitely get the F out as soon as possible
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