I graduated this past may from my B.Arch and found an Non-Paid Internship after searching for a job without luck.
Im probably the first one of my graduating class to receive a Job Offer after 3 months of interning without paid.
This is a Small firm in Southern California (15 people) and it is a Production firm, so we dont get to see much design. The good part about it is the exposure I will get to the politics behind the field. A lot of connections, good networking and exposure to getting experience at the building department.
The job offer is not the best but i think is not bad for the times we are in.
It is a $36K a year with health benefits and possible bonuses every 6 months.
What do you think, given the situation and being my first full time job, with a couple years of part time experience while in school?
i hope to get some honest comments and be honest, i promise not to cry...
The best way to position yourself for your 2nd job is to have a 1st job on which to build. In this economy, any job inside the profession is preferable to not having any job or flipping burgers.
Unless you have something better to do with your time, you'd probably be making a big mistake if you did not take this position. It's not forever and it will help prepare you for something better once the economy improves.
its a job and at this point that is all that anyone can really ask for... i spent some time at a production focused firm and you will learn a lot about actually putting buildings together that you wouldn't necessarily learn at a hotshit design firm.
Thanks for the responses!
They are very valid comments and most importantly very realistic so i appreciate the feedback. i know that at this point we cant afford to get selective with the jobs we all would ideally like to have, and I know it will be a great opportunity to learn a lot and then move on when things get back on track. It will be ideal and will help get ready for my ARE's and get IDP done
The salary is quite pathetic and insulting but all things considered, you should definitely take it. At this point, most people would take it. So I wouldn't even think twice.
And when things get better (and they will) you will be in the position to either negotiate a respectable salary or simply jump ship since you'll have some vital experience under your belt. Learning production
Most people on this board will defend this kind of shitty salary, but unlike many on here, I personally speak the language of reality. And the reality is that if you live in an expensive place such as Southern California it is simply impossible to live off of that salary. You may even need to suplement your income with an evening job as well.
WTF, why would you NOT take this job? $36k is around what some 5yrs experience level are being paid in Chicago. Cost of living is worse in Chicago too. Take it or I will.
That's bullshit, btw--you can easily live on 36k in southern california. You won't be living in Pasadena but you can sure as hell live with a couple roommates in long beach. I really don't see how this salary is so bad for very first job out of school.
@med - need to get off your "I'm employed and make more than 36K" high horse and get with the program.
"36K with benefits" is reality and appears to be decent compared to the alternative. it's a positive start...the alternative is keep looking and let someone else have it, no job at all, or do something else.
fwiw, heard of offers being made for 28K in Austin, TX - and there are educated people accepting these jobs.
I'm not on any highhorse here. Compared to all my friends in other professions, I'd be lucky to even BE on a horse in general. I live in an expensive-ass city where architecture happens to be in relatively not-so-piss-poor condition. BY no means is my salary leagues beyond what is being discussed here and yes I consider myself very lucky to be in a job (even though I'm working right now on a sunday) making a some-what respectable salary.
Yes, 36k a year is definitely greater than recieving unemployment checks. Fair enough -- we've ALL established that. But in general, I'm sorry, it's practically a subsistence level income in a large and expensive city. for example, people making that salary are eligible to live in "economic hardship" areas in my city.
when I first started my career (not all that long ago) I was making around that much. My rent was around 1250/month (which was a bargain there), utilities not included, I had student loans out the yinyang, and I would honestly be lucky if I ended up with about 200 bucks by the time I was sucked completely dry of everything.
- this is where I remind everybody that the economics for employers have changed too. Before we launch off into a tirade about firms taking advantage of their staff, many firms right now are happy just to keep as many jobs intact as possible. To be able to add staff would be delicious!
In the fall of 2006 my former firm (SoCal corporate architecture) hired two interns right out of college for $40k + benefits and the usual reimbursements for IDP, ARE and LEED exams. In 06 the economy and job market was pretty hot and frothy. An offer of $36k (-11% from 06) is par for the current economy and job market considering some of my former colleagues took 10-20% paycuts (20% for senior staff and management) this year. NYC & DC firms may pay more for staff, but it is mostly to offset the cost of living expenses which is about 20% higher than LA.
Did you really need to come to a place where people vent about unemployment and the difficulties of finding work to ask if you should take a job, fresh out of school, with no experience? Take the job and count your blessings.
Congratulation on finding work, but come on. Was there really a question in your mind or were you looking for a little ego boost?
iheartbooks - I don't know about you, but I certainly did not know what the value of my skills were when I was fresh out of school. It took me awhile to figure out that my skillset was a valuable commodity. If a board like this existed back then I would have most assuredly posted the same question.
Even though I have not found a job in the last year, I am thrilled to hear that others are finding work because that means things are getting better. You can be sure that when I find a job I will be doing the snoopy dance, telling everyone I know and posting it all over this board. You can also be sure that I would not be doing this in an "in your face way", but in a "there is hope way".
BTW - what's wrong with a little ego boost anyway...everyone has been down for way too long. I would invite everyone who gets work to post it on Archinect as a morale booster for others in our profession.
urbanity- Thanks for the response to iheartbooks comment...
By no means I intended this discussion to be an "in your face" thing trying to show that I found a job and others are still having difficulties in doing so.
All things said by you are exactly the words i would have used to respond to the comment, so i will not do it again.
I believe this brings hope to everyone in the profession who has found the last year or two very difficult in getting back on the field, and let me tell you that since the moment I started the Unpaid internship with this company I had no idea that the offer was coming or would ever come in the first 6 months, so i was still applying for jobs and going everywhere even thinking of looking for a basic job that would pay minimum in CA, so when I got the job offer i was excited but still being my first full time job in the profession I needed to know and get feedback from others with more experience and really figure out if the pay was good and be able to value my skills.
And let me say that by being on top of the job posts not only here but everywhere I've been noticing in the last couple of months that we are getting more and more job posts everyday so that can say something and give people hope that things are trying to pick up, and companies are starting to hire again.
Thank you all for the comments, I'm sure that this Monday i will accept the offer, and I'm sure it will be just the beginning of a great career and a lot of learning.
I wish everyone out there good luck on the job hunt!
congrats... I'd take that job in this economy... it's your first job out of school, you'll definitely benefit from experience working, especially in this tough job market. Look to learn about production, preparing documents, construction administration, etc.
SaloDaniel - did you work at this firm for 3 months without pay before this offer came? That's crazy and I hope they remember that when bonus time comes around.
The pay seems about right for a fresh grad with little experience. It's down from a couple years ago but percentage wise, it's probably close to on par with the pay cuts everyone in the profession has taken. With reduced hours, straight up pay cuts, loss of 401k match, bonus, etc. my income is off quite substantially.
I do have many friends in other professions that just haven't felt this economy yet. It's tough because they don't understand why Architects don't automatically start at $50k+ right out of college and don't get standard 10% raises, etc. Personally I hate the attitude that "it's a passion and not about pay." Hey, we all have to live and quite frankly, other professions are better at creating profits that reward their staff with a healthy standard of living. Architect's as a group have many failings in that department IMO. That said, we all start somewhere and hopefully pending a turnaround in the economy you'll see a lot of upward momentum.
Aqua, that is why it is OUR responsibility down the road to change all that. One day we may be the ones to make architecture a somewhat dignified and respectable profession.
Just for the record, I've been doing this for a while and I think Architecture is a "dignified and respectable profession". While every industry goes through economic cycles - and this one is worse than most - that doesn't change the fact that many members of our profession have long and reasonably prosperous careers, producing good work for good clients.
The nature of this forum is such that the cynics and the unhappy and the inexperienced and those with an ax to grind tend to predominate and be the most vocal. That doesn't make their world view even remotely close to "reality" - it's just their opinion, as this is mine.
The financial reality from an employer such as myself is this.
1. Interns fresh out of school COST the office money. I know that this is unpopular on these boards and with young architects, but it is just a fact. We lose money on interns. This profession has a very high learning curve when it comes to practice and it takes a long time to become a profitable employee.
2. Many interns do not stay in their first jobs long enough after becoming profitable to ever make up for the money that they cost the office to train. Many will take their 3 years experience and try to get another job. In the short term, jumping around from office to office every couple of years definitely is a way to increase salary faster than staying with one firm. In the long run, it is a horrible idea - if I have 2 resume's of potential employees each with 6 years experience, I will hire the person with 6 years at one firm over the employee with 6 years at 3 firms any day.
This makes comparisons to other professions where the above is not true less than fair.
Couple the above with the current economy and the fact that we are trying our best just to hold onto the positions that we currently have, and it makes it very tough. But, even though the above is true, our office likes to hire interns as we think of our office as a teaching office.
Interns fresh out of school COST the office money.
this statement irks me because in most well run offices this is not the case. interns are billed at a higher multiple than your more senior staff or principals; therefore, the majority of your overhead and profit are coming out of interns' billable hours. if a project is being run on an hourly, not to exceed basis, the company needs interns to remain profitable. it is up to the project managers to ensure that both project architects and interns are working efficiently to remain billable and complete the project on budget. don't blame the intern, blame the project manager if you are having project cost overruns.
there is a tradeoff between what jafidler writes and what tyvek writes ... and that tradeoff is tied almost inextricably to the amount of training that the firm undertakes with the interns it hires. Firms that use interns strictly as CADmonkeys find it much easier to make a profit on that labor / firms that truly want to take the time to educate interns about the stuff they aren't taught in school often find intern labor unprofitable for a period of time.
In the short term, jumping around from office to office every couple of years definitely is a way to increase salary faster than staying with one firm. In the long run, it is a horrible idea -
This makes it sound as though the intern is simply flying off to another job and nothing will keep him. In reality interns leave precisely for what you mentioned above -- the money. If you want your interns to stay, then pay them salary increases commensurate with their growth in knowledge at your firm. This is something that's in YOUR power to change, not the intern's. If an intern learns a ton at your firm and leaves, then offer him a salary increase to stay. I fail to see how this should be a reason to keep intern's salaries low (?) which was the main thrust of your post.
@ stone, i believe the best way for an intern to gain experience within the profession is to participate in billable projects. that does not mean simply having to grind away in cad. in my view, it has far more to do with the chemistry between the intern and the project architect. i've found the best combination to be an architect with 20+ years experience paired with a freshly-minted techy-savvy recent grad. i've seen that combination bust out successful projects in very short periods of time. it's incredibly important for firms to be mindful of how they are mentoring their interns, not only for the sake of the intern, but for the profitability of the firm.
2. Many interns do not stay in their first jobs long enough after becoming profitable to ever make up for the money that they cost the office to train. Many will take their 3 years experience and try to get another job. In the short term, jumping around from office to office every couple of years definitely is a way to increase salary faster than staying with one firm. In the long run, it is a horrible idea - if I have 2 resume's of potential employees each with 6 years experience, I will hire the person with 6 years at one firm over the employee with 6 years at 3 firms any day.
this post bugs the hell out of me. I would have loved to spend the first 6 years of my career at one place. very few interns would jump around that much unless they had a pretty damn good reason to leave - or they had no choice - which is more often the case.
There is so much wrong in what tyvek says that I wouldnt even begin to know where to start.
Why don't you take a stab at drafting all your projects in REVIT working 12 hours a day without OT, producing high-quality photo-realistic renderings, model about a dozen iterations of your design in sketch UP within two or three hours so YOU can impress all the clients. and then look us in the face and tell us we're costing your shitty firm money.
Most of us dont wish to jump ship. Our ideal situation is to stay put, learn from you, and if we work out we would hope that you would make it worth our while to stay. But you don't. that's the problem.
Sorry to upset, I thought that I was merely pointing out simple facts.
1. Interns cost the firm money. This is not a value judgment on an interns ability, skill, etc. (I'm sure that you all are fantastic). It is simply that they need to be trained. Someone has to show them what to do and why, how a CD set should be drawn and why, how a building goes together, etc. This is a simple fact and it means that not only is much of the interns time unbillable while training, but the person training them is also spending unbillable time doing so. I was an intern once too. My hours were just as long, pay just as bad, and felt under-appreciated. But now that I am an employer and am running a small firm, I understand that I cost the firm money while I learned how to be an architect. Simple as that.
2. Employees moving. Again, not passing value judgments on anyone, it is just a simple fact that this happens. People (in any profession) just don't typically stay at a single firm that long anymore. The "why" is not relevant to my point, it is just a simple fact.
The point about staying at one firm. . . was really just a sidebar. I have received a lot of resumes where someone supposedly had 5 years experience, but it is with 5 or 6 different firms. Because a project takes so long, this makes me question the quality of the experience and the fact that someone that has longer stints at a single firm is more likely to have seen the process all the way through a couple of times.
So when someone compares the salary a recent graduate in another profession to a recent architectural graduate it is not an apples-to-apples comparison. A currency trader fresh out of business school will be a profitable investment for an employer a lot faster than an architecture intern. That is my only point.
Don't we all cost firms money? Unless you are a sole practitioner and do every little bit of the project by yourself, you are costing a firm money. Everyone's just part of the process; quite being so arrogant.
I'm just going to totally re-post stone's comment because most of you all above seem to have ignored it:
there is a tradeoff between what jafidler writes and what tyvek writes ... and that tradeoff is tied almost inextricably to the amount of training that the firm undertakes with the interns it hires. Firms that use interns strictly as CADmonkeys find it much easier to make a profit on that labor / firms that truly want to take the time to educate interns about the stuff they aren't taught in school often find intern labor unprofitable for a period of time.
I think this thread and others have led to a lot of really great, educational discussion about firm life. There are firms out there that take the tradition of internship and training very seriously, teach/train their young workers and hope to keep them at the firm. There are also firms that see interns as lowly serfs to be abused for as many hours a day as possible then tossed like a kleenex. I've worked in both, and unsurprisingly stayed for ten years at the one that treated me well.
What worries me is the number of posters here who think that being abused is "just business" or the norm. It may be common, but it's far from ethical, and there are lots of firms that are good places to work.
ckl, it's because everything that tyvek says is 100% pure dogshit.
I pitty the junior level architects who have to work under him. Probably runs a sweatshop paying them peanuts while asuring them that they are "costing the firm money"
LB, I think you're right, but it just seems to me that maybe the culture is changing a bit. The market before the collapse was an employee market so many young people moved around quite a bit, and that made firms even more uncomfortable about investing knowledge and time in them. Which guess what, only contributed to this vicious cycle.
I had been hoping that Revit would offset this a little because it makes the younger generation feel a bit more relevant again, I really do think it empowers them to think ahead and consider the big picture in more ways than being a cad monkey.
And firms that abuse interns? That is always a relative thing. My own personal limit is - I can't work for free, I can't afford it and I think it doesn't make sense for either party.
ckl - I hope you're right about the culture changing, but I have my doubts.
In the 30+ years I've been practicing in my community (i.e. large urban area), there has been little change with respect to the length of time interns tend to stay at one firm. One factor is the economic cycles that hammer our industry from time to time and force layoffs. Another factor is the natural restlessness that exists among many younger professionals -- there's a strong "the grass is greener" motivation to move around and garner different experience with different sized firms and different building types.
As a principal of a firm, I'd love nothing more than thinking that our HR policies and collaborative working environment will keep the people we value with us for a long time. We'll keep doing what we do in that hope, but the dual reality is that a) right now, young staff are clinging to their jobs with true dedication because they know that there's nothing else out there for them, and b) when the economy turns other (bigger) firms will start throwing money at experienced professionals and we'll lose a certain percentage of the good people we have here now if we can't match the offers.
Here at our mid-sized firm the average tenure of our current staff is 6.13 years, which average includes only one of the firm's founding princpals. Seven people hired into the firm have been here more than 9 years and three of those people are now principals. The newer principals have been with us for 18, 15 and 10 years respectively. Only five members of our firm have been here less than 3 years.
I think those are pretty good numbers for a firm our size, and I'm always looking for ways to make them better. But, the truth is that no matter what we do, we're going to lose some good people to "greener pastures".
Owners and principals get so bent out of shape when their interns jump ship and make such a big deal out of it but when they have to lay them all off -- they expect those same interns to kiss their asses in understanding...
med - does that chip you wear perpetually on your shoulder ever get heavy?
I don't see a lot of principals complaining here about interns (or principals gloating over layoffs, as you charged in another post) - just a few explaining their point-of-view in a thoughtful, interesting manner, based on their real world experience.
Your regularly expressed view here that 'every principal out there is a drooling, greedy imbecile whose sole purpose in life is to screw interns' just doesn't hold water. Get over it, man! You're starting to look like a small-minded idiot.
ckl - i just wanted to comment that i'm glad to hear you say you will not work for free. i wish more young architects/recent grads were willing to draw that line. i'm in my last year of an m.arch program and have significant experience in another, likewise competitive, field. i have never worked for free and i do not intend to do so when i graduate, no matter how bad the economy is.
digger, we are the ones taking the direct hit here so we have every reason to be frustrated. And if we haven't been sacked we've got huge targets painted on ALL of our backs.
While not all management level people are out to hunt us down many are much in evidence to the schmuck slave-driver in this thread who claims that we cost firms money. (Need some proof -- I'm at the office til goddamn midnight tonight without an extra penny being payed to me and it has been like this for four weeks!)
We look to our superiors as mentors and people we look up to -- people who we aspire to be like and learn from. What kind of example is being set for the younger generation coming into this profession when their comrades are tossed out into the street like rubbish after one of their "mass layoffs"? You call us "professionals" then treat us like professionals. I understand this is the way they used to do it in the old days but we are supposed to be moving on from that sub-human and neanderthal way of thinking.
Oh and by the way firms that want people to "work for free" are an absolute joke in the first place (almost as big a joke as people who are fooled into accepting them!).
In the world I live in, things cost money and life costs money! I didt go to school and pay all that money so I can work for free.
med -- I rest my case -- you once again prove a total inability to understand even the smallest portion of any point-of-view other than your own -- all from the luxury of a steady job with a firm that clearly hasn't suffered much due to its public sector orientation.
firms in the private sector simply don't have the ability to guarantee employment to their staff when their clients can't raise any financing to get any projects out of the ground. what would you have us do -- keep paying people forever when we have no revenues to support those costs?
and, just for the record, I'm a shareholder in my firm and I haven't received a paycheck for 2-1/2 months -- we do that so we can keep our younger people paid. and, we're comfortable with that decision because we're committed to the people we're able to employ.
you're not only small minded -- you're a naive asshole.
digger....I don't think I would want to work with you.... even if you finance the younger folk. You sound like a pain to work for. Could it be that you were taking more money out of the pot in good times than was really needed and straving those young ones, just so you could keep them around in hard times cause you knew they would be to scared to leave.
Yes digger you are sooooo good to your disciples that the best words of advice that you give them based on your own nausiating words in another thread is: "Supersize me!" Remember these are your own words!
And I"M the asshole?
FYI, I'm not saying you shouldn't lay people off -- you do what you have to do. all I'm saying is that we are in the day in age where things need to be more professional. That includes refraining from telling people to "supersize you" as you're laying them off.
We are very fortunate to have quite a few higher ups where the sole basis of their fat paychecks is to make it rain. and they have done an outstanding job at it.
don't sweat it dude. one day, when these youngsters get the chance to own their own firms, they're going to make sure everyone has the same salary, everyone gets the same hours, and everyone is always learning. because, of course, we're all just really doing the same work and taking on the same risk - it's just different expressions of such.
med., your views on this are indeed, as you said above, pure comedy. I'm really sorry you've had such awful experiences, but I just want to say, again, to all the young interns reading this that not all firms are as bad as what med. is proposing. Yes there are craptastic bosses - real assholes with whom no one should have anything to do - and there are bosses (like digger) who cut their own salaries to keep the people who depend on them employed. Again, I've worked for both.
outed: very funny. There's just no way to understand that risk until one is putting their own name on the drawings, as anyone who becomes an owner will eventually realize.
As someone who has just found themselves in a "boss" position... I am an asshole.
But you see, I am a good kind of asshole. I actually encourage deviant behavior, drug use and alcoholism... addicts need money and I control that money. They will come to work because they can't get their next "big thing" with out me.
My only real concern is please... don't show up to work so wasted that you show people your penis. And if you do whip it out, make sure the party is interested.
However... since almost every single employee I know of is a subcontractor, I have a limited responsibility in their role. And people coming and going really doesn't fuck me over much past having to fill out paperwork. In reality, I really don't mind but it is my boss who has to pay me to fill out paperwork. So... he cares. But in all honesty, it really only takes 15 minutes to make an employee ... an employee-- A W2 and a signing a waiver of liability.
Puhhhhlleeeeezzzzz... any employer who complains about this is a lazy jackass. I have room to say this because I am the laziest jackass ever. I field calls because I am too busy watching Dynasty and getting drunk. You need me to process your POs? AFTER I FUCKING FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENS TO ALEXIS.
Now, I work in a business where 'results matter,' so inexperience generally shows itself relatively quickly in liability insurance claims forms.
Long story... short! If you run a business and don't entertain the idea of people coming and going as they please, you'll never be able to build a business.
I, myself, prefer people who have worked at multiple companies... the reason is because they've been in different environments and learned different tricks.
If it came down to it... and there's an employee with 3 jobs over 10 years and an employee with 1 job over 10 years, I am going to pick the employee with 3 jobs.
He/She knows more. The person with the stale resume would have to be really effing excellent at what they do for me to consider them as someone with a lot to bring to the table.
Oct 20, 09 12:40 am ·
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Job Offer: Worth it?
I graduated this past may from my B.Arch and found an Non-Paid Internship after searching for a job without luck.
Im probably the first one of my graduating class to receive a Job Offer after 3 months of interning without paid.
This is a Small firm in Southern California (15 people) and it is a Production firm, so we dont get to see much design. The good part about it is the exposure I will get to the politics behind the field. A lot of connections, good networking and exposure to getting experience at the building department.
The job offer is not the best but i think is not bad for the times we are in.
It is a $36K a year with health benefits and possible bonuses every 6 months.
What do you think, given the situation and being my first full time job, with a couple years of part time experience while in school?
i hope to get some honest comments and be honest, i promise not to cry...
Jump on it, for all the reasons you listed. Learn and learn and learn and then when you've learned all you can, move on. Good luck!
if you don't take it i will ..
The best way to position yourself for your 2nd job is to have a 1st job on which to build. In this economy, any job inside the profession is preferable to not having any job or flipping burgers.
Unless you have something better to do with your time, you'd probably be making a big mistake if you did not take this position. It's not forever and it will help prepare you for something better once the economy improves.
its a job and at this point that is all that anyone can really ask for... i spent some time at a production focused firm and you will learn a lot about actually putting buildings together that you wouldn't necessarily learn at a hotshit design firm.
Thanks for the responses!
They are very valid comments and most importantly very realistic so i appreciate the feedback. i know that at this point we cant afford to get selective with the jobs we all would ideally like to have, and I know it will be a great opportunity to learn a lot and then move on when things get back on track. It will be ideal and will help get ready for my ARE's and get IDP done
The salary is quite pathetic and insulting but all things considered, you should definitely take it. At this point, most people would take it. So I wouldn't even think twice.
And when things get better (and they will) you will be in the position to either negotiate a respectable salary or simply jump ship since you'll have some vital experience under your belt. Learning production
Most people on this board will defend this kind of shitty salary, but unlike many on here, I personally speak the language of reality. And the reality is that if you live in an expensive place such as Southern California it is simply impossible to live off of that salary. You may even need to suplement your income with an evening job as well.
For someone with zero experience and a B.Arch, $36K is only a little below the pre-crash market in LA. I'd go for it.
WTF, why would you NOT take this job? $36k is around what some 5yrs experience level are being paid in Chicago. Cost of living is worse in Chicago too. Take it or I will.
That's bullshit, btw--you can easily live on 36k in southern california. You won't be living in Pasadena but you can sure as hell live with a couple roommates in long beach. I really don't see how this salary is so bad for very first job out of school.
@med - need to get off your "I'm employed and make more than 36K" high horse and get with the program.
"36K with benefits" is reality and appears to be decent compared to the alternative. it's a positive start...the alternative is keep looking and let someone else have it, no job at all, or do something else.
fwiw, heard of offers being made for 28K in Austin, TX - and there are educated people accepting these jobs.
I'm not on any highhorse here. Compared to all my friends in other professions, I'd be lucky to even BE on a horse in general. I live in an expensive-ass city where architecture happens to be in relatively not-so-piss-poor condition. BY no means is my salary leagues beyond what is being discussed here and yes I consider myself very lucky to be in a job (even though I'm working right now on a sunday) making a some-what respectable salary.
Yes, 36k a year is definitely greater than recieving unemployment checks. Fair enough -- we've ALL established that. But in general, I'm sorry, it's practically a subsistence level income in a large and expensive city. for example, people making that salary are eligible to live in "economic hardship" areas in my city.
when I first started my career (not all that long ago) I was making around that much. My rent was around 1250/month (which was a bargain there), utilities not included, I had student loans out the yinyang, and I would honestly be lucky if I ended up with about 200 bucks by the time I was sucked completely dry of everything.
...more like a miniature toy horse, i guess.
- this is where I remind everybody that the economics for employers have changed too. Before we launch off into a tirade about firms taking advantage of their staff, many firms right now are happy just to keep as many jobs intact as possible. To be able to add staff would be delicious!
In the fall of 2006 my former firm (SoCal corporate architecture) hired two interns right out of college for $40k + benefits and the usual reimbursements for IDP, ARE and LEED exams. In 06 the economy and job market was pretty hot and frothy. An offer of $36k (-11% from 06) is par for the current economy and job market considering some of my former colleagues took 10-20% paycuts (20% for senior staff and management) this year. NYC & DC firms may pay more for staff, but it is mostly to offset the cost of living expenses which is about 20% higher than LA.
In my honest opinion.
Did you really need to come to a place where people vent about unemployment and the difficulties of finding work to ask if you should take a job, fresh out of school, with no experience? Take the job and count your blessings.
Congratulation on finding work, but come on. Was there really a question in your mind or were you looking for a little ego boost?
iheartbooks - I don't know about you, but I certainly did not know what the value of my skills were when I was fresh out of school. It took me awhile to figure out that my skillset was a valuable commodity. If a board like this existed back then I would have most assuredly posted the same question.
Even though I have not found a job in the last year, I am thrilled to hear that others are finding work because that means things are getting better. You can be sure that when I find a job I will be doing the snoopy dance, telling everyone I know and posting it all over this board. You can also be sure that I would not be doing this in an "in your face way", but in a "there is hope way".
BTW - what's wrong with a little ego boost anyway...everyone has been down for way too long. I would invite everyone who gets work to post it on Archinect as a morale booster for others in our profession.
urbanity- Thanks for the response to iheartbooks comment...
By no means I intended this discussion to be an "in your face" thing trying to show that I found a job and others are still having difficulties in doing so.
All things said by you are exactly the words i would have used to respond to the comment, so i will not do it again.
I believe this brings hope to everyone in the profession who has found the last year or two very difficult in getting back on the field, and let me tell you that since the moment I started the Unpaid internship with this company I had no idea that the offer was coming or would ever come in the first 6 months, so i was still applying for jobs and going everywhere even thinking of looking for a basic job that would pay minimum in CA, so when I got the job offer i was excited but still being my first full time job in the profession I needed to know and get feedback from others with more experience and really figure out if the pay was good and be able to value my skills.
And let me say that by being on top of the job posts not only here but everywhere I've been noticing in the last couple of months that we are getting more and more job posts everyday so that can say something and give people hope that things are trying to pick up, and companies are starting to hire again.
Thank you all for the comments, I'm sure that this Monday i will accept the offer, and I'm sure it will be just the beginning of a great career and a lot of learning.
I wish everyone out there good luck on the job hunt!
congrats... I'd take that job in this economy... it's your first job out of school, you'll definitely benefit from experience working, especially in this tough job market. Look to learn about production, preparing documents, construction administration, etc.
It's not like I'm telling the guy not to take the job. As I've clearly said, I wouldnt even think twice about it if it was me.
The pay is just lousy and Southern California is expensive.
SaloDaniel - did you work at this firm for 3 months without pay before this offer came? That's crazy and I hope they remember that when bonus time comes around.
The pay seems about right for a fresh grad with little experience. It's down from a couple years ago but percentage wise, it's probably close to on par with the pay cuts everyone in the profession has taken. With reduced hours, straight up pay cuts, loss of 401k match, bonus, etc. my income is off quite substantially.
I do have many friends in other professions that just haven't felt this economy yet. It's tough because they don't understand why Architects don't automatically start at $50k+ right out of college and don't get standard 10% raises, etc. Personally I hate the attitude that "it's a passion and not about pay." Hey, we all have to live and quite frankly, other professions are better at creating profits that reward their staff with a healthy standard of living. Architect's as a group have many failings in that department IMO. That said, we all start somewhere and hopefully pending a turnaround in the economy you'll see a lot of upward momentum.
Aqua, that is why it is OUR responsibility down the road to change all that. One day we may be the ones to make architecture a somewhat dignified and respectable profession.
Just for the record, I've been doing this for a while and I think Architecture is a "dignified and respectable profession". While every industry goes through economic cycles - and this one is worse than most - that doesn't change the fact that many members of our profession have long and reasonably prosperous careers, producing good work for good clients.
The nature of this forum is such that the cynics and the unhappy and the inexperienced and those with an ax to grind tend to predominate and be the most vocal. That doesn't make their world view even remotely close to "reality" - it's just their opinion, as this is mine.
The financial reality from an employer such as myself is this.
1. Interns fresh out of school COST the office money. I know that this is unpopular on these boards and with young architects, but it is just a fact. We lose money on interns. This profession has a very high learning curve when it comes to practice and it takes a long time to become a profitable employee.
2. Many interns do not stay in their first jobs long enough after becoming profitable to ever make up for the money that they cost the office to train. Many will take their 3 years experience and try to get another job. In the short term, jumping around from office to office every couple of years definitely is a way to increase salary faster than staying with one firm. In the long run, it is a horrible idea - if I have 2 resume's of potential employees each with 6 years experience, I will hire the person with 6 years at one firm over the employee with 6 years at 3 firms any day.
This makes comparisons to other professions where the above is not true less than fair.
Couple the above with the current economy and the fact that we are trying our best just to hold onto the positions that we currently have, and it makes it very tough. But, even though the above is true, our office likes to hire interns as we think of our office as a teaching office.
this statement irks me because in most well run offices this is not the case. interns are billed at a higher multiple than your more senior staff or principals; therefore, the majority of your overhead and profit are coming out of interns' billable hours. if a project is being run on an hourly, not to exceed basis, the company needs interns to remain profitable. it is up to the project managers to ensure that both project architects and interns are working efficiently to remain billable and complete the project on budget. don't blame the intern, blame the project manager if you are having project cost overruns.
there is a tradeoff between what jafidler writes and what tyvek writes ... and that tradeoff is tied almost inextricably to the amount of training that the firm undertakes with the interns it hires. Firms that use interns strictly as CADmonkeys find it much easier to make a profit on that labor / firms that truly want to take the time to educate interns about the stuff they aren't taught in school often find intern labor unprofitable for a period of time.
you're both right .. in context.
This makes it sound as though the intern is simply flying off to another job and nothing will keep him. In reality interns leave precisely for what you mentioned above -- the money. If you want your interns to stay, then pay them salary increases commensurate with their growth in knowledge at your firm. This is something that's in YOUR power to change, not the intern's. If an intern learns a ton at your firm and leaves, then offer him a salary increase to stay. I fail to see how this should be a reason to keep intern's salaries low (?) which was the main thrust of your post.
@ stone, i believe the best way for an intern to gain experience within the profession is to participate in billable projects. that does not mean simply having to grind away in cad. in my view, it has far more to do with the chemistry between the intern and the project architect. i've found the best combination to be an architect with 20+ years experience paired with a freshly-minted techy-savvy recent grad. i've seen that combination bust out successful projects in very short periods of time. it's incredibly important for firms to be mindful of how they are mentoring their interns, not only for the sake of the intern, but for the profitability of the firm.
this post bugs the hell out of me. I would have loved to spend the first 6 years of my career at one place. very few interns would jump around that much unless they had a pretty damn good reason to leave - or they had no choice - which is more often the case.
There is so much wrong in what tyvek says that I wouldnt even begin to know where to start.
Why don't you take a stab at drafting all your projects in REVIT working 12 hours a day without OT, producing high-quality photo-realistic renderings, model about a dozen iterations of your design in sketch UP within two or three hours so YOU can impress all the clients. and then look us in the face and tell us we're costing your shitty firm money.
Most of us dont wish to jump ship. Our ideal situation is to stay put, learn from you, and if we work out we would hope that you would make it worth our while to stay. But you don't. that's the problem.
Sorry to upset, I thought that I was merely pointing out simple facts.
1. Interns cost the firm money. This is not a value judgment on an interns ability, skill, etc. (I'm sure that you all are fantastic). It is simply that they need to be trained. Someone has to show them what to do and why, how a CD set should be drawn and why, how a building goes together, etc. This is a simple fact and it means that not only is much of the interns time unbillable while training, but the person training them is also spending unbillable time doing so. I was an intern once too. My hours were just as long, pay just as bad, and felt under-appreciated. But now that I am an employer and am running a small firm, I understand that I cost the firm money while I learned how to be an architect. Simple as that.
2. Employees moving. Again, not passing value judgments on anyone, it is just a simple fact that this happens. People (in any profession) just don't typically stay at a single firm that long anymore. The "why" is not relevant to my point, it is just a simple fact.
The point about staying at one firm. . . was really just a sidebar. I have received a lot of resumes where someone supposedly had 5 years experience, but it is with 5 or 6 different firms. Because a project takes so long, this makes me question the quality of the experience and the fact that someone that has longer stints at a single firm is more likely to have seen the process all the way through a couple of times.
So when someone compares the salary a recent graduate in another profession to a recent architectural graduate it is not an apples-to-apples comparison. A currency trader fresh out of business school will be a profitable investment for an employer a lot faster than an architecture intern. That is my only point.
"Interns fresh out of school COST the office money"
In our case, even grads 2 years out of college cost us money. Depends on the person and the school i guess.
Don't we all cost firms money? Unless you are a sole practitioner and do every little bit of the project by yourself, you are costing a firm money. Everyone's just part of the process; quite being so arrogant.
to those who think interns cost them money: why do you hire them it if you consider it doesn't make sense financially?
I'm just going to totally re-post stone's comment because most of you all above seem to have ignored it:
there is a tradeoff between what jafidler writes and what tyvek writes ... and that tradeoff is tied almost inextricably to the amount of training that the firm undertakes with the interns it hires. Firms that use interns strictly as CADmonkeys find it much easier to make a profit on that labor / firms that truly want to take the time to educate interns about the stuff they aren't taught in school often find intern labor unprofitable for a period of time.
I think this thread and others have led to a lot of really great, educational discussion about firm life. There are firms out there that take the tradition of internship and training very seriously, teach/train their young workers and hope to keep them at the firm. There are also firms that see interns as lowly serfs to be abused for as many hours a day as possible then tossed like a kleenex. I've worked in both, and unsurprisingly stayed for ten years at the one that treated me well.
What worries me is the number of posters here who think that being abused is "just business" or the norm. It may be common, but it's far from ethical, and there are lots of firms that are good places to work.
ckl, it's because everything that tyvek says is 100% pure dogshit.
I pitty the junior level architects who have to work under him. Probably runs a sweatshop paying them peanuts while asuring them that they are "costing the firm money"
LB, I think you're right, but it just seems to me that maybe the culture is changing a bit. The market before the collapse was an employee market so many young people moved around quite a bit, and that made firms even more uncomfortable about investing knowledge and time in them. Which guess what, only contributed to this vicious cycle.
I had been hoping that Revit would offset this a little because it makes the younger generation feel a bit more relevant again, I really do think it empowers them to think ahead and consider the big picture in more ways than being a cad monkey.
And firms that abuse interns? That is always a relative thing. My own personal limit is - I can't work for free, I can't afford it and I think it doesn't make sense for either party.
ckl - I hope you're right about the culture changing, but I have my doubts.
In the 30+ years I've been practicing in my community (i.e. large urban area), there has been little change with respect to the length of time interns tend to stay at one firm. One factor is the economic cycles that hammer our industry from time to time and force layoffs. Another factor is the natural restlessness that exists among many younger professionals -- there's a strong "the grass is greener" motivation to move around and garner different experience with different sized firms and different building types.
As a principal of a firm, I'd love nothing more than thinking that our HR policies and collaborative working environment will keep the people we value with us for a long time. We'll keep doing what we do in that hope, but the dual reality is that a) right now, young staff are clinging to their jobs with true dedication because they know that there's nothing else out there for them, and b) when the economy turns other (bigger) firms will start throwing money at experienced professionals and we'll lose a certain percentage of the good people we have here now if we can't match the offers.
Here at our mid-sized firm the average tenure of our current staff is 6.13 years, which average includes only one of the firm's founding princpals. Seven people hired into the firm have been here more than 9 years and three of those people are now principals. The newer principals have been with us for 18, 15 and 10 years respectively. Only five members of our firm have been here less than 3 years.
I think those are pretty good numbers for a firm our size, and I'm always looking for ways to make them better. But, the truth is that no matter what we do, we're going to lose some good people to "greener pastures".
This is pure comedy...
Owners and principals get so bent out of shape when their interns jump ship and make such a big deal out of it but when they have to lay them all off -- they expect those same interns to kiss their asses in understanding...
med - does that chip you wear perpetually on your shoulder ever get heavy?
I don't see a lot of principals complaining here about interns (or principals gloating over layoffs, as you charged in another post) - just a few explaining their point-of-view in a thoughtful, interesting manner, based on their real world experience.
Your regularly expressed view here that 'every principal out there is a drooling, greedy imbecile whose sole purpose in life is to screw interns' just doesn't hold water. Get over it, man! You're starting to look like a small-minded idiot.
ckl - i just wanted to comment that i'm glad to hear you say you will not work for free. i wish more young architects/recent grads were willing to draw that line. i'm in my last year of an m.arch program and have significant experience in another, likewise competitive, field. i have never worked for free and i do not intend to do so when i graduate, no matter how bad the economy is.
digger, we are the ones taking the direct hit here so we have every reason to be frustrated. And if we haven't been sacked we've got huge targets painted on ALL of our backs.
While not all management level people are out to hunt us down many are much in evidence to the schmuck slave-driver in this thread who claims that we cost firms money. (Need some proof -- I'm at the office til goddamn midnight tonight without an extra penny being payed to me and it has been like this for four weeks!)
We look to our superiors as mentors and people we look up to -- people who we aspire to be like and learn from. What kind of example is being set for the younger generation coming into this profession when their comrades are tossed out into the street like rubbish after one of their "mass layoffs"? You call us "professionals" then treat us like professionals. I understand this is the way they used to do it in the old days but we are supposed to be moving on from that sub-human and neanderthal way of thinking.
Oh and by the way firms that want people to "work for free" are an absolute joke in the first place (almost as big a joke as people who are fooled into accepting them!).
In the world I live in, things cost money and life costs money! I didt go to school and pay all that money so I can work for free.
People like that should be jailed forever.
med -- I rest my case -- you once again prove a total inability to understand even the smallest portion of any point-of-view other than your own -- all from the luxury of a steady job with a firm that clearly hasn't suffered much due to its public sector orientation.
firms in the private sector simply don't have the ability to guarantee employment to their staff when their clients can't raise any financing to get any projects out of the ground. what would you have us do -- keep paying people forever when we have no revenues to support those costs?
and, just for the record, I'm a shareholder in my firm and I haven't received a paycheck for 2-1/2 months -- we do that so we can keep our younger people paid. and, we're comfortable with that decision because we're committed to the people we're able to employ.
you're not only small minded -- you're a naive asshole.
digger....I don't think I would want to work with you.... even if you finance the younger folk. You sound like a pain to work for. Could it be that you were taking more money out of the pot in good times than was really needed and straving those young ones, just so you could keep them around in hard times cause you knew they would be to scared to leave.
lol
Yes digger you are sooooo good to your disciples that the best words of advice that you give them based on your own nausiating words in another thread is: "Supersize me!" Remember these are your own words!
And I"M the asshole?
FYI, I'm not saying you shouldn't lay people off -- you do what you have to do. all I'm saying is that we are in the day in age where things need to be more professional. That includes refraining from telling people to "supersize you" as you're laying them off.
We are very fortunate to have quite a few higher ups where the sole basis of their fat paychecks is to make it rain. and they have done an outstanding job at it.
digger -
don't sweat it dude. one day, when these youngsters get the chance to own their own firms, they're going to make sure everyone has the same salary, everyone gets the same hours, and everyone is always learning. because, of course, we're all just really doing the same work and taking on the same risk - it's just different expressions of such.
med., your views on this are indeed, as you said above, pure comedy. I'm really sorry you've had such awful experiences, but I just want to say, again, to all the young interns reading this that not all firms are as bad as what med. is proposing. Yes there are craptastic bosses - real assholes with whom no one should have anything to do - and there are bosses (like digger) who cut their own salaries to keep the people who depend on them employed. Again, I've worked for both.
outed: very funny. There's just no way to understand that risk until one is putting their own name on the drawings, as anyone who becomes an owner will eventually realize.
As someone who has just found themselves in a "boss" position... I am an asshole.
But you see, I am a good kind of asshole. I actually encourage deviant behavior, drug use and alcoholism... addicts need money and I control that money. They will come to work because they can't get their next "big thing" with out me.
My only real concern is please... don't show up to work so wasted that you show people your penis. And if you do whip it out, make sure the party is interested.
However... since almost every single employee I know of is a subcontractor, I have a limited responsibility in their role. And people coming and going really doesn't fuck me over much past having to fill out paperwork. In reality, I really don't mind but it is my boss who has to pay me to fill out paperwork. So... he cares. But in all honesty, it really only takes 15 minutes to make an employee ... an employee-- A W2 and a signing a waiver of liability.
Puhhhhlleeeeezzzzz... any employer who complains about this is a lazy jackass. I have room to say this because I am the laziest jackass ever. I field calls because I am too busy watching Dynasty and getting drunk. You need me to process your POs? AFTER I FUCKING FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENS TO ALEXIS.
Now, I work in a business where 'results matter,' so inexperience generally shows itself relatively quickly in liability insurance claims forms.
Long story... short! If you run a business and don't entertain the idea of people coming and going as they please, you'll never be able to build a business.
I, myself, prefer people who have worked at multiple companies... the reason is because they've been in different environments and learned different tricks.
If it came down to it... and there's an employee with 3 jobs over 10 years and an employee with 1 job over 10 years, I am going to pick the employee with 3 jobs.
He/She knows more. The person with the stale resume would have to be really effing excellent at what they do for me to consider them as someone with a lot to bring to the table.
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