I am a recent graduate (undergrad) ... Started my first job in the "real" world and hate it. My question is, im about to finish my second week and want to quit, what is the best way to go about doing this?
Just ask to speak to either a principal you've had contact with, your project manager if it seems appropriate or the person who hired you. Explain that it isn't working out for you and you are sorry to inconvenience them but need to look elsewhere. Depending on the atmosphere, you might want to explain some of your issues, or on the opposite end write a short but sweet "letter of resignation" (you can find many on the internet) and hand it to them.
But before you do that I'd seriously think about the options - why do you hate it? Is there any way to keep working and talk about it with your co-workers and see if you can cgange things over time? How long will it take you to find another job and do you need one? Transitioning to the working world is always hard, and if you're just going to quit and get another job you hate it's not going to help you. On the other hand if it's because the boos is crazy or they expect you to work 100 hours a week or something, just tell them it isn't working out and leave.
I remember the transition being really tough as well. In school you're asked to work independently, develop ideas and present them. Suddenly, in the office you need to be a productive team member, do the grunt work and nobody is particularly interested in your ideas.
The great part about my first job is that the office gathered every Friday afternoon with beers and snacks, and reviewed the progress of the current work. It was a great way to both reflect on what you had accomplished that week as well as keep your eye on the big picture, which often gets lost during those oh-so-thrilling partition schedules and detail redmarks.
Point is, either try and intiate a similar weekly (or monthly) meeting, or better yet, try and hook up with a mentor who guides you through your work and helps you meet your personal goals. Not someone who shows you how to draft, etc., but perhaps someone who reinforce the principles of your job(ie good drafting is essential in architecture, so your work is more important than you may think.) Asking for meetings or a mentor will show your employer that you're engaged with the firm and interested in growing into a more valuable employee.
If you've gone through the trouble of architecture school, I'll assume you're not a quitter. Give it a better shot, keep your eye on the big picture, and consider your current boring work as a first step towards getting back to the fun design work that you remember from school. If you stay motivated and engaged and your employer isn't a complete moron, you'll be designing before you know it. Meanwhile, work hard and drink heavily.
tell them you've to go to your car for somtin. this should be the last time they see you.
if you think it is a dead end it is a dead end. go somewhere where you are happy. it ain't worth it..
hey guys thanks for all the feedback.. enzo your first job sounds like a dream come true.. i will take your advice and drink heavily.. i guess ill stick it out for a few more weeks and if it still sucks im outtie...its not even an architecture firm though.. its a cast stone company.. but i am on CAD and photoshop all day, but the work is very repedetive and boring..can you guys please tell me what type of work an intern does at a typical architecture firm?
Holy crap dude, get a job at a firm. Most interns work in autocad of course, but also assist with design tasks. We put together presentations, including physical models and vitrual models, and occasionaly get to design some smaller projects. Just keep in mind that you still have much to learn, and that should be the real goal of your internship. If you aren't learning about good design, how bulidings are put together, and/or business, ect. you should definitely cut your losses and move on.
You need to think this through. Ideally you want your first job to be with an Architectural Firm. But given the general down turn in the amount of jobs out there for interns, you are at least working, and using your CAD skills. My advice is to continue working there. Learn as much as you can about the Cast Stone Industry,while your there. You may not realize it now but the knowledge you gain with this company will be usefull to you once you secure a job with an architectural office. Keep sending out resume's. and going to interviews. Once you learn more about the ins and outs of the cast stone business,. you will become an ideal tech person to meet with the architects that will be using this company,at which time you can find out about job opening at their firm.However, you want to make a plan to be out of this company by a sertain time say 1 to 2 years max. Keep sending out resumes and looking for arch. office work. Good Luck.
Completely depends on the type of firm, structure, work they do, your experience and how you fit in, as well as what you ask for when job hunting! At my first job I had a small residential job I did the design and drawings for, with no previous experience! But the office was the principal and me, so he had no choice. At my second job I pretty much worked on CAD DD drawings all day for a larger project - very repetitive and sometimes boring but the design was good and I absorbed a lot even though I had no input. I had the chance to work on a few competitions, models and 3D models as well. Third job I did CAD from DD-CDs, some project management, spec writing, models, presentation graphics, you name it.
So now you know you don't like repetetive work... you probably will end up doing a lot of the same stuff for an architecture office, but looking for your next job you will have an idea how to ask for a variety of work assignments, and to determine in advance if you'll be stuck on photoshop all day. Having working knowledge of materials, manufacturing and the business side of a company like you're at can be invaluable. I would try to veg out as much as you can while doing the boring work, and then really pay attention to what everyone else is doing and see what you can learn. Try and soak up the installation details, and ask questions of co-workers if they do things you don't understand or would like to know more about. If I were you I would try to give it at least 3 if not 6 months, and take your time looking around for an architecture job. I am sure they will understand if you say you've decided to work in your chosen field, they may not be happy, but it's a perfectly good reason to leave.
I would agree that you should take as much as possible away from the experience at your current job, but I certainly would not stay there any longer than necessary if it is not what you want to do. Yes, you could spend valuable years of your life becoming an expert in the important field of cast stone, but if that is not what you feel compelled to do, there is always an alternative, even if you can't get a job in a firm. Do something else that will give you life experiece.
Unless you're being supervised by a registered architect (or in some cases by a licensed engineer or contractor) your current job is unlikely to count toward IDP.
If you are being supervised by an architect: to count toward IDP you must work at least 10 consecutive weeks and no less than 35 hours per week (or 6 consecutive months and no less than 20 hours per week.) So you might want to stick it out several more weeks.
Architecture jobs within manufacturing/product companies (whether for stone products, windows, roof materials, partition systems, whatever) do tend to be repetetive and not particulary creative...
Our interns in this architecture firm do everything that any of us do - from schematic design to construction documents to taking out the garbage and answering the phone. It isn't always exciting and not all of it involves the type of creative experimentation you probably did in school.
maybe this is not the place for asking this question, here's my situation:
im working in an exhibiton/show design company, but my boss is not an architect. however a registered architect lady offers her supervision whenever needed.
Does this count towards IDP, if the lady attests that she has been supervising me for the past 2 years??
Do they ask for any proof like pay-stubs, W2 etc etc???
They don't usually ask for any proof of the sort you mentioned. However, technically no, your situation does not qualify for IDP unless this architect is your everyday supervisor. Even then, if this is not an architecture firm then it doesn't really meet NCARB's criteria.
There are some non-architecture firm situations that do count in limited amounts (i.e. usually you can count up to about a year of experience in such situations) - such as working for an engineering firm or contractor, or teaching fulltime in an NAAB-accredited program. NCARB's specific rules are all in the IDP paperwork. Order it free from www.ncarb.org
One thing to watch out for with these alternative situations though: even if NCARB counts them, some states will ONLY count experience earned in architecture firms, or will accept less units from the alternative situations. So also check with your state's board.
sameold: what you usually do need for NCARB documentation is one of their "employment verification" forms, on which you need to list the firm's name and your supervisor must put his/her state registration stamp number. Theoretically NCARB verifies the existence of the firm and the architect's registration number - that's one of the reasons NCARB's paperwork processing supposedly takes so long.
one more thing - maybe im asking too much here, but:
actually i am in california, where they do not need the IDP before the 1st of January 2005. But when i look at the form for the ARE pre-qualification, they ask for the employment history etc etc. so my question is:
Should i just apply anyways pay the 100$ and take the chance or just wait till i get a job in a proper architectural firm?
You do not need to have any hours logged as work experience if you have a 5 year bachelors or a master's degree. Either gives you the equivalent of 5 years school/work experience, which is what you need to start taking the exams. I would probably start now if you can so you can avoid the more extensive IDP paperwork, and also because it's better just to start and get it over with in my opinion. But, if you think you may want to practice in another state in the future and don't have any work credits yet anyway, it would make sense to wait and do IDP because it makes it a lot easier to get the ncarb certification required for reciprocity (my understanding anyway).
It's correct that you need to do IDP to get NCARB certified, and that this is required for reciprocity in many states. But, you can in fact finish the ARE in California and complete IDP afterward.
I don't know how long the paperwork to take the ARE in California takes. Is there enough time to get it approved by January? (The regular NCARB IDP review/ARE approval paperwork often takes a lot longer than that!)
RA Rudolph, actually i have a 5 year bachelors degree (from India) and a Master's degree from the US but i think they do not consider the 5 year courses from other countries to be equivalent to bachelors in architecture from america - hence the hue and cry!!!
you might want to invest about 6 - 9 months in that horrid environment. It is your first job. Watch everything that you see, where you are. Look at what goes on in the shop. Pick the brains of the engineering staff. When something you work on is fabricated, check it out.
You are getting paid to learn in some ways things that you will never ever see again (your hope). Concrete, hydrastone, formwork, molds, tooling, odd reinforcement structures & new materals, different aggregates, ad mixtures, all kinds of things.
You might see solutions to future problems that the people you work for will never observe. An architects ability is almost always limited by their practical knowledge of how things are constructed. Because you are not of the concrete box, you see it as a frustrating wall blocking access to your end goal. Set aside the immediate gratification takes too long attitude.
Remember all the tasks assigned in school to open your eyes. What is taught in school is great, but it is not the real world. The more an architect understands & masters the finesse of building materials and technologies - the better job that they can do for clients in the end.
They don't teach what these people are doing in school and never will. You might just find this frustrating interlude of amazing value in 25 years. Take a curious approach & ask your new bosses if you can take your breaks/ lunches at off times to investigate other work and how the processes work & interrelate. They will probably be thrilled and might take you under a wing.
If your bosses like you, maybe they will turn you on to an nice architectural client as a next or future employer. Stranger things have happened.
I spent exactly nine hours in my first job out of school. Got the job with a med size firm in the city where I went to school. the boss was a sometime prof., liked him personally but everyone in the office hated it and the environment was awful. Way too much stress. I walked out the first day and went home and walked in first thing the next morning and wrote a note that I quit. Shocked everyone and didn't speak to him for years, too embrassed. He had left for a vacation came back and I was gone.
I went to go work for a small office and had a great time, still work in a small office but its mine.
Word of advice is to move on now, it only gets harder as you get older and you become more jaded like many of the poor souls who participate in this wed site. If you make the move now you'll never regret it, guaranteed if you don't leave you will regret not doing it.
All good comments for ElTomas to consider.
I would stick with the job and learn what you can...meanwhile look for the architectural job. It's always easier to find a job when you have a job...you look more attractive to potential employers.
Plus what others were saying about learning construction/materials related knowledge that will only help you in the future.
But on the IDP/licensure note:
You CAN get credit for this work.
"Other related work experience" may have been obtained in other related fields such as construction, interior design, historic preservation, or product sales. While highly valuable experiences, only 117 Training Units are counted towards the IDP requirements and only in the areas of Management and Related Activities (Categories C & D).
For a detailed account of the various scenarios in which you can obtain IDP Training Units, refer to Appendix E: Training Settings in the IDP Guidelines booklet or contact your State IDP Coordinator.
Even if you live in CA, IDP is highly recommended (even if you finish it up after finished all your exams like I did.) IDP completion automatically makes you eligible for NCARB certification. And if you started IDP during internship, your certfication fee may be waived as well as reduced annual fees for the first 3 years. (I think it saved me a couple hundred dollars.)
Requirements for licensure are different from state to state, so don't take our word for it, check with your state registration board.
ElTomas - Stick at your job for another week or two and see if it develops. I had this experience and the best resolution was to front up to the ‘chief cheese’ and discuss your issues.
On a side note I’ve just been a ‘work buddy’ to a new student fresh out of the womb of college. He got scarred after two days and didn’t return after lunch on the Wednesday. No discussions, no inclination of unhappiness, just left with an e-mail note back to me. This type is the kind of student that really pisses me off. I hate it when ‘kids’ waste my time, they have no balls. Ladies excluded.
dead end job....
I am a recent graduate (undergrad) ... Started my first job in the "real" world and hate it. My question is, im about to finish my second week and want to quit, what is the best way to go about doing this?
well its not a real job unless you give it at least 3 weeks. 2 weeks isnt really a serious effort.
why not try a fresh cup of hot java on the principals lap?
Just ask to speak to either a principal you've had contact with, your project manager if it seems appropriate or the person who hired you. Explain that it isn't working out for you and you are sorry to inconvenience them but need to look elsewhere. Depending on the atmosphere, you might want to explain some of your issues, or on the opposite end write a short but sweet "letter of resignation" (you can find many on the internet) and hand it to them.
But before you do that I'd seriously think about the options - why do you hate it? Is there any way to keep working and talk about it with your co-workers and see if you can cgange things over time? How long will it take you to find another job and do you need one? Transitioning to the working world is always hard, and if you're just going to quit and get another job you hate it's not going to help you. On the other hand if it's because the boos is crazy or they expect you to work 100 hours a week or something, just tell them it isn't working out and leave.
I guess i need more information.
Do you hate the specific place you are working? Or do you hate the profession in general meaning you want to change professions?
I remember the transition being really tough as well. In school you're asked to work independently, develop ideas and present them. Suddenly, in the office you need to be a productive team member, do the grunt work and nobody is particularly interested in your ideas.
The great part about my first job is that the office gathered every Friday afternoon with beers and snacks, and reviewed the progress of the current work. It was a great way to both reflect on what you had accomplished that week as well as keep your eye on the big picture, which often gets lost during those oh-so-thrilling partition schedules and detail redmarks.
Point is, either try and intiate a similar weekly (or monthly) meeting, or better yet, try and hook up with a mentor who guides you through your work and helps you meet your personal goals. Not someone who shows you how to draft, etc., but perhaps someone who reinforce the principles of your job(ie good drafting is essential in architecture, so your work is more important than you may think.) Asking for meetings or a mentor will show your employer that you're engaged with the firm and interested in growing into a more valuable employee.
If you've gone through the trouble of architecture school, I'll assume you're not a quitter. Give it a better shot, keep your eye on the big picture, and consider your current boring work as a first step towards getting back to the fun design work that you remember from school. If you stay motivated and engaged and your employer isn't a complete moron, you'll be designing before you know it. Meanwhile, work hard and drink heavily.
tell them you've to go to your car for somtin. this should be the last time they see you.
if you think it is a dead end it is a dead end. go somewhere where you are happy. it ain't worth it..
hey guys thanks for all the feedback.. enzo your first job sounds like a dream come true.. i will take your advice and drink heavily.. i guess ill stick it out for a few more weeks and if it still sucks im outtie...its not even an architecture firm though.. its a cast stone company.. but i am on CAD and photoshop all day, but the work is very repedetive and boring..can you guys please tell me what type of work an intern does at a typical architecture firm?
Holy crap dude, get a job at a firm. Most interns work in autocad of course, but also assist with design tasks. We put together presentations, including physical models and vitrual models, and occasionaly get to design some smaller projects. Just keep in mind that you still have much to learn, and that should be the real goal of your internship. If you aren't learning about good design, how bulidings are put together, and/or business, ect. you should definitely cut your losses and move on.
You need to think this through. Ideally you want your first job to be with an Architectural Firm. But given the general down turn in the amount of jobs out there for interns, you are at least working, and using your CAD skills. My advice is to continue working there. Learn as much as you can about the Cast Stone Industry,while your there. You may not realize it now but the knowledge you gain with this company will be usefull to you once you secure a job with an architectural office. Keep sending out resume's. and going to interviews. Once you learn more about the ins and outs of the cast stone business,. you will become an ideal tech person to meet with the architects that will be using this company,at which time you can find out about job opening at their firm.However, you want to make a plan to be out of this company by a sertain time say 1 to 2 years max. Keep sending out resumes and looking for arch. office work. Good Luck.
Completely depends on the type of firm, structure, work they do, your experience and how you fit in, as well as what you ask for when job hunting! At my first job I had a small residential job I did the design and drawings for, with no previous experience! But the office was the principal and me, so he had no choice. At my second job I pretty much worked on CAD DD drawings all day for a larger project - very repetitive and sometimes boring but the design was good and I absorbed a lot even though I had no input. I had the chance to work on a few competitions, models and 3D models as well. Third job I did CAD from DD-CDs, some project management, spec writing, models, presentation graphics, you name it.
So now you know you don't like repetetive work... you probably will end up doing a lot of the same stuff for an architecture office, but looking for your next job you will have an idea how to ask for a variety of work assignments, and to determine in advance if you'll be stuck on photoshop all day. Having working knowledge of materials, manufacturing and the business side of a company like you're at can be invaluable. I would try to veg out as much as you can while doing the boring work, and then really pay attention to what everyone else is doing and see what you can learn. Try and soak up the installation details, and ask questions of co-workers if they do things you don't understand or would like to know more about. If I were you I would try to give it at least 3 if not 6 months, and take your time looking around for an architecture job. I am sure they will understand if you say you've decided to work in your chosen field, they may not be happy, but it's a perfectly good reason to leave.
I would agree that you should take as much as possible away from the experience at your current job, but I certainly would not stay there any longer than necessary if it is not what you want to do. Yes, you could spend valuable years of your life becoming an expert in the important field of cast stone, but if that is not what you feel compelled to do, there is always an alternative, even if you can't get a job in a firm. Do something else that will give you life experiece.
theres always ..."black or cream and sugar"
Some things you might want to consider:
Unless you're being supervised by a registered architect (or in some cases by a licensed engineer or contractor) your current job is unlikely to count toward IDP.
If you are being supervised by an architect: to count toward IDP you must work at least 10 consecutive weeks and no less than 35 hours per week (or 6 consecutive months and no less than 20 hours per week.) So you might want to stick it out several more weeks.
Architecture jobs within manufacturing/product companies (whether for stone products, windows, roof materials, partition systems, whatever) do tend to be repetetive and not particulary creative...
Our interns in this architecture firm do everything that any of us do - from schematic design to construction documents to taking out the garbage and answering the phone. It isn't always exciting and not all of it involves the type of creative experimentation you probably did in school.
hey Aluminate,
maybe this is not the place for asking this question, here's my situation:
im working in an exhibiton/show design company, but my boss is not an architect. however a registered architect lady offers her supervision whenever needed.
Does this count towards IDP, if the lady attests that she has been supervising me for the past 2 years??
Do they ask for any proof like pay-stubs, W2 etc etc???
They don't usually ask for any proof of the sort you mentioned. However, technically no, your situation does not qualify for IDP unless this architect is your everyday supervisor. Even then, if this is not an architecture firm then it doesn't really meet NCARB's criteria.
There are some non-architecture firm situations that do count in limited amounts (i.e. usually you can count up to about a year of experience in such situations) - such as working for an engineering firm or contractor, or teaching fulltime in an NAAB-accredited program. NCARB's specific rules are all in the IDP paperwork. Order it free from www.ncarb.org
One thing to watch out for with these alternative situations though: even if NCARB counts them, some states will ONLY count experience earned in architecture firms, or will accept less units from the alternative situations. So also check with your state's board.
sameold: what you usually do need for NCARB documentation is one of their "employment verification" forms, on which you need to list the firm's name and your supervisor must put his/her state registration stamp number. Theoretically NCARB verifies the existence of the firm and the architect's registration number - that's one of the reasons NCARB's paperwork processing supposedly takes so long.
one more thing - maybe im asking too much here, but:
actually i am in california, where they do not need the IDP before the 1st of January 2005. But when i look at the form for the ARE pre-qualification, they ask for the employment history etc etc. so my question is:
Should i just apply anyways pay the 100$ and take the chance or just wait till i get a job in a proper architectural firm?
You do not need to have any hours logged as work experience if you have a 5 year bachelors or a master's degree. Either gives you the equivalent of 5 years school/work experience, which is what you need to start taking the exams. I would probably start now if you can so you can avoid the more extensive IDP paperwork, and also because it's better just to start and get it over with in my opinion. But, if you think you may want to practice in another state in the future and don't have any work credits yet anyway, it would make sense to wait and do IDP because it makes it a lot easier to get the ncarb certification required for reciprocity (my understanding anyway).
It's correct that you need to do IDP to get NCARB certified, and that this is required for reciprocity in many states. But, you can in fact finish the ARE in California and complete IDP afterward.
I don't know how long the paperwork to take the ARE in California takes. Is there enough time to get it approved by January? (The regular NCARB IDP review/ARE approval paperwork often takes a lot longer than that!)
Thanks Aluminate.
RA Rudolph, actually i have a 5 year bachelors degree (from India) and a Master's degree from the US but i think they do not consider the 5 year courses from other countries to be equivalent to bachelors in architecture from america - hence the hue and cry!!!
Eltomas,
you might want to invest about 6 - 9 months in that horrid environment. It is your first job. Watch everything that you see, where you are. Look at what goes on in the shop. Pick the brains of the engineering staff. When something you work on is fabricated, check it out.
You are getting paid to learn in some ways things that you will never ever see again (your hope). Concrete, hydrastone, formwork, molds, tooling, odd reinforcement structures & new materals, different aggregates, ad mixtures, all kinds of things.
You might see solutions to future problems that the people you work for will never observe. An architects ability is almost always limited by their practical knowledge of how things are constructed. Because you are not of the concrete box, you see it as a frustrating wall blocking access to your end goal. Set aside the immediate gratification takes too long attitude.
Remember all the tasks assigned in school to open your eyes. What is taught in school is great, but it is not the real world. The more an architect understands & masters the finesse of building materials and technologies - the better job that they can do for clients in the end.
They don't teach what these people are doing in school and never will. You might just find this frustrating interlude of amazing value in 25 years. Take a curious approach & ask your new bosses if you can take your breaks/ lunches at off times to investigate other work and how the processes work & interrelate. They will probably be thrilled and might take you under a wing.
If your bosses like you, maybe they will turn you on to an nice architectural client as a next or future employer. Stranger things have happened.
Good luck.
I spent exactly nine hours in my first job out of school. Got the job with a med size firm in the city where I went to school. the boss was a sometime prof., liked him personally but everyone in the office hated it and the environment was awful. Way too much stress. I walked out the first day and went home and walked in first thing the next morning and wrote a note that I quit. Shocked everyone and didn't speak to him for years, too embrassed. He had left for a vacation came back and I was gone.
I went to go work for a small office and had a great time, still work in a small office but its mine.
Word of advice is to move on now, it only gets harder as you get older and you become more jaded like many of the poor souls who participate in this wed site. If you make the move now you'll never regret it, guaranteed if you don't leave you will regret not doing it.
All good comments for ElTomas to consider.
I would stick with the job and learn what you can...meanwhile look for the architectural job. It's always easier to find a job when you have a job...you look more attractive to potential employers.
Plus what others were saying about learning construction/materials related knowledge that will only help you in the future.
But on the IDP/licensure note:
You CAN get credit for this work.
"Other related work experience" may have been obtained in other related fields such as construction, interior design, historic preservation, or product sales. While highly valuable experiences, only 117 Training Units are counted towards the IDP requirements and only in the areas of Management and Related Activities (Categories C & D).
For a detailed account of the various scenarios in which you can obtain IDP Training Units, refer to Appendix E: Training Settings in the IDP Guidelines booklet or contact your State IDP Coordinator.
Even if you live in CA, IDP is highly recommended (even if you finish it up after finished all your exams like I did.) IDP completion automatically makes you eligible for NCARB certification. And if you started IDP during internship, your certfication fee may be waived as well as reduced annual fees for the first 3 years. (I think it saved me a couple hundred dollars.)
Requirements for licensure are different from state to state, so don't take our word for it, check with your state registration board.
ElTomas - Stick at your job for another week or two and see if it develops. I had this experience and the best resolution was to front up to the ‘chief cheese’ and discuss your issues.
On a side note I’ve just been a ‘work buddy’ to a new student fresh out of the womb of college. He got scarred after two days and didn’t return after lunch on the Wednesday. No discussions, no inclination of unhappiness, just left with an e-mail note back to me. This type is the kind of student that really pisses me off. I hate it when ‘kids’ waste my time, they have no balls. Ladies excluded.
Fake your own death.
hmm, why didn't i think of t
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