I have a situation where I'm doing a very small bathroom renovation in NYC. It's a very straightforward job, but the building management office requires that all plumbing changes require demolition of all branch lines to the risers and new branch connections and roughing. This is even if fixtures are replaced in the exact same location.
The project is so small it would be a disservice to retain a MEP consultant to do it...and an unnecessary cost that could otherwise be spent on the design. I can certainly work out the plumbing riser diagram myself and determine all the pipe sizes, determine connection requirements to the risers, general notes, etc based on other MEP drawings from other similar jobs.
But...is there a liability in generating MEP drawings and stamping it? Part of me says it's such a small job I should just go for it...but then again it will require Building Management and DOB approval, so there may be liability issues if anything goes wrong. Do any of you do this with no problems or fears? Or do you just tell the client it is a necessary expense and they need to get a licensed MEP engineer to generate the drawings?
FYI, this is a job being done more as a favor for a friend (very low fee), and I'm taking a risk by not getting liability insurance or E&O insurance.
I thought about that, but the contractor is not selected yet.
What happens when you have a licensed sub do it, then end up awarding the job to another contractor? Are there any issues with this scenario, especially during bidding?
I suppose work is work, and it's considered easy money by the sub...but I don't want to recommend this to the client if it poses a conflict of interest during the bidding phase. What happens when 1 bidder discovers another bidder is filing the job? Sounds like it could pose a conflict of interest.
We have been doing our own MEP's for all projects years - including restaurants. We are now better than most MEP's in our area and best of all we, get to keep the fee!
If I have read the Illinois act right it is similar to the IL engineer's: do what ever you feel comfortable doing.
I don't really know how the plumber can submit documents since, more than likely, he/she is not a PE.
I work in NYC, and have done/still do small project like you're describing. No one hires an MEP firm for something like this, and unless your contractor's using a pretty large plumbing outfit, it's unlikely they'll have a licensed engineer to produce the filing drawing.
All you need is a riser diagram. For proper pipe sizing, the plumbing section of the code tells you all you need to know. We don't put any pipe connections, or any other information other than the layout and pipe diameter, show traps, etc.
But we do have notes on the drawing that require to the plumber and g.c. to follow all requirements of the building code, and all building regulations/rules. I'm not sure that this removes all liability, but it puts some responsibility on them.
Remember that the plumber gets his own work signed off or does a self inspection if the inspector doesn't show up (which is likely given the size of the job). So in the end, the licensed plumber is signing forms, not you, stating that he's installed everything per code. If something goes wrong, he'll be in the crosshairs.
A plumber is a licensed profesional and able to submit req. riser diagrams. Most likely the found conditions will be different anyways. Older highrises almost always have shared shut off valves in one of the units back to back or stuff not visable from your side of the chase, galvanised a nd copper often times mixed from various fixes plus the age of the galv is prob such you want to replace with copper anyhow - be sure to note a dielectric union if tapping into existing galv with copper. You should be able to pull the permit with your own riser diagrams though since the work is verified "to code" by the plumber.
oh - liability wise? You'd be liable for the price of what he finds in the walls that wasnt on your drawing, certainly if you go with the lowest bidder. Ask around the building for a guy who knows the conditions of that building well. He'll be most inclusive in his quote.
it depends upon the jurisdiction and scope of work as to whether the plumber can submit drawings or if a P.E. needs to stamp it. in any event, plumbers always have a few favorite engineers they go to who will engineer it the way the plumber wants to build it and stamp the drawing. voila.
if you don't have a GC on-board yet, you won't be able to pull the permit anyway. you don't need the riser diagram to bid and award. (unless NYC allows owner-builder permits. if that's the case, you got a hole other bunch of liability issues that rocket to the forefront than doing your own riser diagram.)
Ok...this is all good to know. Thanks brooklyntotfc...very helpful. I'll just submit the plumbing riser and some general notes and see what happens. It's really too small a job to retain a MEP consultant, in my opinion.
Jack,
I don't think he would be liable for something that is found in the walls like you mentioned. The owner would have to pay for whatever the "unknown" regardless if the architect mentioned it or not. Just because the architect didn't know exactly what the conditions are does not make him liable.
I did a house in Joliet, Illinois and called out to connect to existing sewer line, only to find out later that the sewer line was over 400 feet away. Owner tried to come after me for not mentioning it in the MEP's, but the judge thought differently since the owner had to pay for the 400' regardless. I'm just concluding it from my experience.
FP,
I agree with most post above, just do it yourself. Even for larger project on the side I don't hire an engineer, consultant etc. Good luck with the project!
You should be safe in doing the design of the plumbing system if you feel comfortable in your technical ability to do it. Just place a conspicuous note on the drawing that reads: "Prior to commencing plumbing work, the plumbing sub-contractor shall submit a self generated plumbing schematic and appropriate detail drawings to the Architect for approval." This puts the work into the world of a shop drawing review sequence, which will limit your liability for the final design.
does building management have text for regulations of work to be done on the building, if so reference them, and if available drop their section about plumbing in.
do you have insurance? typically that's who you ask if you're concerned about liability...
on a job this small as someone mentioned before usually the riser is put in with the architectural drawings and you're done.
the way it works is all installs need to be inspected but the DOB inspectors only inspect 20% of them, but the plumber needs to be present just incase. if the inspector doesn't show up, the plumber self-certifies.
FP, old school NYC architects who know their stuff often have a MEP guy on staff or on call to consult on an hourly basis if they don't feel they can do it, but this is simple enough an architect can do it.
you say you can do it, so any liability concerns should be about the neighbors and not your job, as you say it is a favor. Building Management may even have a building architect. So if you're too uncomfortable with stamping them and the BM Arch. is willing to not only review but also supply proper MEP documentation and a satmp, ask your client to pay for it if they are willing (but the fee may match yours).
no matter what you do you are alway liable and in America anyone can sue anyone, so really it's just about how confident you are about ensuring a proper job is done.
ya just remember...s++t flows down hill and pay day is Friday....and well you should have your small project licked.
Actually I always put on the drawings a note that is an PE seal is required by the building department than the responsibility falls with the plumbing contractor. I'm always very upfront with the owner that I will provide electronic drawings to an engineer in case a seal is required.
However do not seal any drawing which is a mpe...cause your and architect.
There are state laws and city codes that say what an architect can and can not seal. In nyc the architect just about trumps everything. Old school architects, as the young guys are so nervous about liabilty that they know nothing because they avoid everything, old school architects will stamp almost everything including mechanicals, plumbing, sprinklers, and some structural.
old architects are fools.. as I'm one of them....architecture does not turmp everything unless you know what the frick your doing....don't do it. It all looks simple and easy until there is a big fricking problem looking you in the face. I have spent the majority of the day reviewing building code officals comments, justifying what I'm doing in a rather small additon to a school. So far I'm ahead in the tally of things on his list.
If I were you, I would do the drawings myself. You can limit the risk by using a plumber who has worked in the building before. Also, don't self-certify the drawings. DOB review will catch some errors (and they will also object to some things that are not errors).
Sep 15, 09 11:41 pm ·
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Liability of the architect doing MEP drawings
I have a situation where I'm doing a very small bathroom renovation in NYC. It's a very straightforward job, but the building management office requires that all plumbing changes require demolition of all branch lines to the risers and new branch connections and roughing. This is even if fixtures are replaced in the exact same location.
The project is so small it would be a disservice to retain a MEP consultant to do it...and an unnecessary cost that could otherwise be spent on the design. I can certainly work out the plumbing riser diagram myself and determine all the pipe sizes, determine connection requirements to the risers, general notes, etc based on other MEP drawings from other similar jobs.
But...is there a liability in generating MEP drawings and stamping it? Part of me says it's such a small job I should just go for it...but then again it will require Building Management and DOB approval, so there may be liability issues if anything goes wrong. Do any of you do this with no problems or fears? Or do you just tell the client it is a necessary expense and they need to get a licensed MEP engineer to generate the drawings?
FYI, this is a job being done more as a favor for a friend (very low fee), and I'm taking a risk by not getting liability insurance or E&O insurance.
Thanks!
on small residential projects i almost always have the MEP subs do that stuff design-build.
el jeffe,
I thought about that, but the contractor is not selected yet.
What happens when you have a licensed sub do it, then end up awarding the job to another contractor? Are there any issues with this scenario, especially during bidding?
I suppose work is work, and it's considered easy money by the sub...but I don't want to recommend this to the client if it poses a conflict of interest during the bidding phase. What happens when 1 bidder discovers another bidder is filing the job? Sounds like it could pose a conflict of interest.
i'm with el jeffe, the licensed contractor awarded can submit drawings and pull the permits. seems pretty straightforward.
That's certainly the most cost effective solution...and puts no liability on me. Too bad it screws up the schedule a bit. Thanks for the advice.
We have been doing our own MEP's for all projects years - including restaurants. We are now better than most MEP's in our area and best of all we, get to keep the fee!
If I have read the Illinois act right it is similar to the IL engineer's: do what ever you feel comfortable doing.
I don't really know how the plumber can submit documents since, more than likely, he/she is not a PE.
"I don't really know how the plumber can submit documents since, more than likely, he/she is not a PE"
Good point DSC. El jeffe...you say you do this all the time. Are your subs PE's? Are you in NYC?
I work in NYC, and have done/still do small project like you're describing. No one hires an MEP firm for something like this, and unless your contractor's using a pretty large plumbing outfit, it's unlikely they'll have a licensed engineer to produce the filing drawing.
All you need is a riser diagram. For proper pipe sizing, the plumbing section of the code tells you all you need to know. We don't put any pipe connections, or any other information other than the layout and pipe diameter, show traps, etc.
But we do have notes on the drawing that require to the plumber and g.c. to follow all requirements of the building code, and all building regulations/rules. I'm not sure that this removes all liability, but it puts some responsibility on them.
Remember that the plumber gets his own work signed off or does a self inspection if the inspector doesn't show up (which is likely given the size of the job). So in the end, the licensed plumber is signing forms, not you, stating that he's installed everything per code. If something goes wrong, he'll be in the crosshairs.
A plumber is a licensed profesional and able to submit req. riser diagrams. Most likely the found conditions will be different anyways. Older highrises almost always have shared shut off valves in one of the units back to back or stuff not visable from your side of the chase, galvanised a nd copper often times mixed from various fixes plus the age of the galv is prob such you want to replace with copper anyhow - be sure to note a dielectric union if tapping into existing galv with copper. You should be able to pull the permit with your own riser diagrams though since the work is verified "to code" by the plumber.
oh - liability wise? You'd be liable for the price of what he finds in the walls that wasnt on your drawing, certainly if you go with the lowest bidder. Ask around the building for a guy who knows the conditions of that building well. He'll be most inclusive in his quote.
no to subs being PE's and being in NYC.
it depends upon the jurisdiction and scope of work as to whether the plumber can submit drawings or if a P.E. needs to stamp it. in any event, plumbers always have a few favorite engineers they go to who will engineer it the way the plumber wants to build it and stamp the drawing. voila.
if you don't have a GC on-board yet, you won't be able to pull the permit anyway. you don't need the riser diagram to bid and award. (unless NYC allows owner-builder permits. if that's the case, you got a hole other bunch of liability issues that rocket to the forefront than doing your own riser diagram.)
whole...
Anything back to the riser the plumber can submit in most cases
Ok...this is all good to know. Thanks brooklyntotfc...very helpful. I'll just submit the plumbing riser and some general notes and see what happens. It's really too small a job to retain a MEP consultant, in my opinion.
Jack,
I don't think he would be liable for something that is found in the walls like you mentioned. The owner would have to pay for whatever the "unknown" regardless if the architect mentioned it or not. Just because the architect didn't know exactly what the conditions are does not make him liable.
I did a house in Joliet, Illinois and called out to connect to existing sewer line, only to find out later that the sewer line was over 400 feet away. Owner tried to come after me for not mentioning it in the MEP's, but the judge thought differently since the owner had to pay for the 400' regardless. I'm just concluding it from my experience.
FP,
I agree with most post above, just do it yourself. Even for larger project on the side I don't hire an engineer, consultant etc. Good luck with the project!
for unforeseen conditions i use the term betterment. strangely omitted in the aia practice manual.
You should be safe in doing the design of the plumbing system if you feel comfortable in your technical ability to do it. Just place a conspicuous note on the drawing that reads: "Prior to commencing plumbing work, the plumbing sub-contractor shall submit a self generated plumbing schematic and appropriate detail drawings to the Architect for approval." This puts the work into the world of a shop drawing review sequence, which will limit your liability for the final design.
durf,
great note, i am stealing it for my own!
does building management have text for regulations of work to be done on the building, if so reference them, and if available drop their section about plumbing in.
do you have insurance? typically that's who you ask if you're concerned about liability...
on a job this small as someone mentioned before usually the riser is put in with the architectural drawings and you're done.
to clarify 'plumbing inspections' in nyc.
the way it works is all installs need to be inspected but the DOB inspectors only inspect 20% of them, but the plumber needs to be present just incase. if the inspector doesn't show up, the plumber self-certifies.
plumber pulls plumbing permits.
FP, old school NYC architects who know their stuff often have a MEP guy on staff or on call to consult on an hourly basis if they don't feel they can do it, but this is simple enough an architect can do it.
you say you can do it, so any liability concerns should be about the neighbors and not your job, as you say it is a favor. Building Management may even have a building architect. So if you're too uncomfortable with stamping them and the BM Arch. is willing to not only review but also supply proper MEP documentation and a satmp, ask your client to pay for it if they are willing (but the fee may match yours).
no matter what you do you are alway liable and in America anyone can sue anyone, so really it's just about how confident you are about ensuring a proper job is done.
ya just remember...s++t flows down hill and pay day is Friday....and well you should have your small project licked.
Actually I always put on the drawings a note that is an PE seal is required by the building department than the responsibility falls with the plumbing contractor. I'm always very upfront with the owner that I will provide electronic drawings to an engineer in case a seal is required.
However do not seal any drawing which is a mpe...cause your and architect.
There are state laws and city codes that say what an architect can and can not seal. In nyc the architect just about trumps everything. Old school architects, as the young guys are so nervous about liabilty that they know nothing because they avoid everything, old school architects will stamp almost everything including mechanicals, plumbing, sprinklers, and some structural.
But read the city code and state laws.
old architects are fools.. as I'm one of them....architecture does not turmp everything unless you know what the frick your doing....don't do it. It all looks simple and easy until there is a big fricking problem looking you in the face. I have spent the majority of the day reviewing building code officals comments, justifying what I'm doing in a rather small additon to a school. So far I'm ahead in the tally of things on his list.
Last words, "Be Careful"
I would say that if the local jurisdiction doesn't require a PE seal, then have the subcontractor do the drawing.
It's one thing to know how things work from experience, and quite another to have a professional degree in that field.
If I were you, I would do the drawings myself. You can limit the risk by using a plumber who has worked in the building before. Also, don't self-certify the drawings. DOB review will catch some errors (and they will also object to some things that are not errors).
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