The project is a Boys & Girls club where I am claiming occupancy "E" educational. The code for this occupancy (building is type III unprotected, sprinklered) allows you to not rate the corridor walls if all the primary spaces have exit directly to the exterior, which in this case they do. They also have other route(s) of exit thru the building, so the direct exit is not the only one.
It is very advantageous to not rate the corridors since we are trying to use a large number of interior windows. We don't want to have to be limited by the 25% glazing of wall area maximum, and quite frankly the fireglass is really expensive at $100 SF.
My question is if anybody thinks that I would not have to provide a sidewalk that lets each of these direct exterior exits connect to the parking lot / public way? One way I read the accessibility requirements is that you have to provide safe passage to the public way. A wheelchair trying to roll thru the grass is obviously not accessible. Another is that by getting them outside, it is to a place of refuge, since the masonry exterior wall has a rating. It would be great if I could just get you out the door onto a small stoop and not ring the building with a sidewalk.
The last time I checked on this, I believe that as long as you provide an ACTUAL area of refuge (w/ proper dimensions & < allowable change in floor height) outside of the egress doors, you are ok with not actually providing accessible passage all the way to the public way. You would have to provide appropriate # of areas of refuge per # of occupants, I believe.
Would need to grab my books to check this and am out of the office... curious to know if someone has exact verbage handy.
7.1.10.1 Means of egress shall be continuously maintained free of all
obstructions or impediments to full instant use in case of fire or other emergency. The means of egress includes the exit discharge, which is the portion of the means of egress between the building exit and a public way such as a street, alley, parking lot or similar open area. A proper means of egress allows unobstructed travel at all times. Any type of barrier including, but not limited to, the accumulations of snow and ice, is an impediment to free movement in the means of egress.
7.7.1 Exits shall terminate directly at a public way or at an exterior exit discharge. Yards, courts, open spaces, or other portions of the exit discharge shall be of required width and size to provide all occupants with a safe access to a public way.
The Life Safety Code is not specific as to the surface required for the exit discharge. However, in northern states, it is very difficult for a resident to operate a wheelchair or walker across frozen grass or dirt. This situation is equally difficult for staff to provide assistance in a timely manner. Because exit discharges to the public way must be kept clear in inclement weather, such as rain or snow, the surface of choice would be an asphalt or concrete sidewalk.
In factories and manufacturies facilities, I've always used concrete pads, which would accomodate push/pull dimensions and that would suffice. In this case they are more stringent and I definitely use it in this case. I've also done schools where no maintenance was provided in the exit paths and I had to use heating strips, unless I provided contract and a statement from the client that the paths will be maintained!
cont.
now ICC says that grass pathways are acceptable as long as they are maintained. But be careful, because the required pad will be on the same level as the door/threshold which of course will be higher than the grass surface. Now you can slope down the pad that will lead you onto the grass, which then you have to slope it down to the grass area.
regardless of what I say and believe that I could get away, I think you should check local municipality. Most of them will allow the grass pathway of acceptable means of egress, but there are some that will not. Check with your local official!
I'm not sure which code you are operating under however if it is International Building Code 2003 Take a look at Table 1016.1
Corridor Fire Resistance Rating, Occupancy E, Occupant load served
by corridor greater than 30, Required Fire Resistant Rating (hours),
with Sprinkler System, No Rating Required.
I think your only looking at rating the corridor if it is a non-sprinklered building. Section 1016 Corridors 1016.1 Corridors shall be fire-resistive rated in accordance with table 1016.1
You need to try to use a Business Occupany. Education occupancy is specifically for K-12 education facilities and carries a lot more restrictions than Business.
If you use Business Occupancy, as long as the rooms are under 750 sqft and the building is sprinklered there is no need for rating. If a room is over 750, you just need to rate that room.
I've done this for a few of the "for-profit" type colleges and have passed everytime.
Basicly what I'm saying is you don't need all those doors from the classrooms to the outside if your building is sprinkled so you are now saving your client a basket full of money.
Thank you to everyone for their comments. I think that prudence is leading me towards putting a walkway in. The ideas for pervious surfaces have gotten me thinking about products like the turf blocks, which would get me a little softer green feel than a hard surface. Thanks again for the input.
druf....so what code are you following, the code of sucking America Dry by adding things to your project so that John Q TaxPayer has
to pay for but are not required. That is unless your code book is telling you something different than mine. Then I would apologize but at least I would like it spelled out in a fashion to defend your position.
John Q Taxpayer is not paying for the project smart ass. So the only burden being put on anyone for allowing someone in a wheelchair to be able to properly exit, does not fall on your back. I'm sure the private citizens who are paying for the project will be more than happy to know that in the event of a fire, a wheelchair bound person is able to roll a safe distance away from the building, rather than be melted because they are trapped right outside the door. Although in this day and age of new personal responsibility, maybe we should just expect them to slither a safe distance away on their bellies if it comes down to it.
To satisfy part 2 pf your request:
Florida Building Code 2007 (the whole world does not use IBC)
SECTION 1017 CORRIDORS
1017.1 Construction. Corridors shall be fire-resistance rated in accordance with Table 1017.1. The corridor walls required to be fire-resistance rated shall comply with Section 708 for fire partitions.
Exceptions:
1. A fire-resistance rating is not required for corridors in an occupancy in Group E where each room that is used for instruction has at least one door directly to the exterior and rooms for assembly purposes have at least one-half of the required means of egress doors opening directly to the exterior. Exterior doors specified in this exception are required to be at ground level.
But its a mute point because by sprinklering the building for that occupancy, the corridors don't have to be rated anyways. The rooms however are large enough to require 2 exits. Based on the building plan and room geometry, this is most effectively accomplished by one exit into the corridor, the second directly outside. The grass that predominates in this region is a type call St. Augustine, which has a thick blade and spongy consistency that is not conducive for wheelchairs to roll over, thus the need for some type of hard surface.
Ok, I'm bored with this, hope this puts your mind at ease.
druf,
you took time to write all this? The corridor issue wasn't part of the question to begin with...so I'm confused too why somebody would get stuck up on the corridor ratings especially when you mention that the building is fully sprinklered. But then again maybe some people don't know what that means!!!
durf: Take a look at Table 1017.1 Note Exception One applies to non sprinkled buildings. Also note you will have to provide a smoke barrier wall at your corridor sprinkled or unsprinkled by the Florida Fire Prevention Code.
Required exits is a whole other matter. Occupancy rating for Classrooms is 20 net square feet per occupant. How large are your classrooms? Your allowed up to 50 occupants (1,000 net square feet of room) before you are required to provide two exits out of a room. Only 1 of these exits is required to be accessible.
11-4.1.2 Accessible site and exterior facilities: new construction.
This edition of the code does not apply to buildings, structures, or facilities which were either under construction or under contract for construction on October 1,1997.
Nothing in this code shall be construed to relieve the owner of any building, structure or facility from the duty to provide vertical accessibility to all levels above and below the occupiable grade level, regardless of whether the code requires an elevator to be installed in such building, structure or facility, except: (1) elevator pits, elevator penthouses, mechanical rooms, piping or equipment catwalks, and automobile lubrication and maintenance pits and platforms; (2) unoccupiable spaces, such as rooms, enclosed spaces, and storage spaces that are not designed for human occupancy, for public accommodations, or for work areas; and (3) occupiable spaces and rooms that are not open to the public and that house no more than five persons including, but not limited to, equipment control rooms and projection booths. However as provided in Section 553.509, Florida Statutes, buildings, structures, and facilities must, at a minimum, comply with the requirements of the ADAAG. Therefore, facilities subject to the ADAAG may be required to provide vertical access to areas otherwise exempt under Section 11-4.1.3(5) of this code.
An accessible site shall meet the following minimum requirements:
(1) At least one accessible route complying with Section 11-4.3 shall be provided within the boundary of the site from public transportation stops, accessible parking spaces, passenger loading zones if provided, and public streets or sidewalks, to an accessible building entrance.
(2) At least one accessible route complying with Section 11-4.3 shall connect accessible buildings, accessible facilities, accessible elements, and accessible spaces that are on the same site.
(3) All objects that protrude from surfaces or posts into circulation paths shall comply with Section 11-4.4.
(4) Ground surfaces along accessible routes and in accessible spaces shall comply with Section 11-4.5.
Oh ya, if you look at your Code you will see it is authored by The ICBO. This is common, then the Individual States amend it to their liking. So in a way you are right about the Florida State Building Code.
Sidewalks required?
If anybody has an opinion on this it would help.
The project is a Boys & Girls club where I am claiming occupancy "E" educational. The code for this occupancy (building is type III unprotected, sprinklered) allows you to not rate the corridor walls if all the primary spaces have exit directly to the exterior, which in this case they do. They also have other route(s) of exit thru the building, so the direct exit is not the only one.
It is very advantageous to not rate the corridors since we are trying to use a large number of interior windows. We don't want to have to be limited by the 25% glazing of wall area maximum, and quite frankly the fireglass is really expensive at $100 SF.
My question is if anybody thinks that I would not have to provide a sidewalk that lets each of these direct exterior exits connect to the parking lot / public way? One way I read the accessibility requirements is that you have to provide safe passage to the public way. A wheelchair trying to roll thru the grass is obviously not accessible. Another is that by getting them outside, it is to a place of refuge, since the masonry exterior wall has a rating. It would be great if I could just get you out the door onto a small stoop and not ring the building with a sidewalk.
Again, any comment would be appreciated.
The last time I checked on this, I believe that as long as you provide an ACTUAL area of refuge (w/ proper dimensions & < allowable change in floor height) outside of the egress doors, you are ok with not actually providing accessible passage all the way to the public way. You would have to provide appropriate # of areas of refuge per # of occupants, I believe.
Would need to grab my books to check this and am out of the office... curious to know if someone has exact verbage handy.
just use pervious pavers
80,
yes, per NFPA 101,
7.1.10.1 Means of egress shall be continuously maintained free of all
obstructions or impediments to full instant use in case of fire or other emergency. The means of egress includes the exit discharge, which is the portion of the means of egress between the building exit and a public way such as a street, alley, parking lot or similar open area. A proper means of egress allows unobstructed travel at all times. Any type of barrier including, but not limited to, the accumulations of snow and ice, is an impediment to free movement in the means of egress.
7.7.1 Exits shall terminate directly at a public way or at an exterior exit discharge. Yards, courts, open spaces, or other portions of the exit discharge shall be of required width and size to provide all occupants with a safe access to a public way.
The Life Safety Code is not specific as to the surface required for the exit discharge. However, in northern states, it is very difficult for a resident to operate a wheelchair or walker across frozen grass or dirt. This situation is equally difficult for staff to provide assistance in a timely manner. Because exit discharges to the public way must be kept clear in inclement weather, such as rain or snow, the surface of choice would be an asphalt or concrete sidewalk.
In factories and manufacturies facilities, I've always used concrete pads, which would accomodate push/pull dimensions and that would suffice. In this case they are more stringent and I definitely use it in this case. I've also done schools where no maintenance was provided in the exit paths and I had to use heating strips, unless I provided contract and a statement from the client that the paths will be maintained!
Hope this helps!
cont.
now ICC says that grass pathways are acceptable as long as they are maintained. But be careful, because the required pad will be on the same level as the door/threshold which of course will be higher than the grass surface. Now you can slope down the pad that will lead you onto the grass, which then you have to slope it down to the grass area.
regardless of what I say and believe that I could get away, I think you should check local municipality. Most of them will allow the grass pathway of acceptable means of egress, but there are some that will not. Check with your local official!
I say yes because because you that's part of the egress.
I'm not sure which code you are operating under however if it is International Building Code 2003 Take a look at Table 1016.1
Corridor Fire Resistance Rating, Occupancy E, Occupant load served
by corridor greater than 30, Required Fire Resistant Rating (hours),
with Sprinkler System, No Rating Required.
I think your only looking at rating the corridor if it is a non-sprinklered building. Section 1016 Corridors 1016.1 Corridors shall be fire-resistive rated in accordance with table 1016.1
You need to try to use a Business Occupany. Education occupancy is specifically for K-12 education facilities and carries a lot more restrictions than Business.
If you use Business Occupancy, as long as the rooms are under 750 sqft and the building is sprinklered there is no need for rating. If a room is over 750, you just need to rate that room.
I've done this for a few of the "for-profit" type colleges and have passed everytime.
In Illinois they are pushing an accessible lighted path to the public way. Gravel paths, well maintained and annually inspected have worked for us.
Basicly what I'm saying is you don't need all those doors from the classrooms to the outside if your building is sprinkled so you are now saving your client a basket full of money.
Thank you to everyone for their comments. I think that prudence is leading me towards putting a walkway in. The ideas for pervious surfaces have gotten me thinking about products like the turf blocks, which would get me a little softer green feel than a hard surface. Thanks again for the input.
druf....so what code are you following, the code of sucking America Dry by adding things to your project so that John Q TaxPayer has
to pay for but are not required. That is unless your code book is telling you something different than mine. Then I would apologize but at least I would like it spelled out in a fashion to defend your position.
To satisfy part 1 of your request:
John Q Taxpayer is not paying for the project smart ass. So the only burden being put on anyone for allowing someone in a wheelchair to be able to properly exit, does not fall on your back. I'm sure the private citizens who are paying for the project will be more than happy to know that in the event of a fire, a wheelchair bound person is able to roll a safe distance away from the building, rather than be melted because they are trapped right outside the door. Although in this day and age of new personal responsibility, maybe we should just expect them to slither a safe distance away on their bellies if it comes down to it.
To satisfy part 2 pf your request:
Florida Building Code 2007 (the whole world does not use IBC)
SECTION 1017 CORRIDORS
1017.1 Construction. Corridors shall be fire-resistance rated in accordance with Table 1017.1. The corridor walls required to be fire-resistance rated shall comply with Section 708 for fire partitions.
Exceptions:
1. A fire-resistance rating is not required for corridors in an occupancy in Group E where each room that is used for instruction has at least one door directly to the exterior and rooms for assembly purposes have at least one-half of the required means of egress doors opening directly to the exterior. Exterior doors specified in this exception are required to be at ground level.
But its a mute point because by sprinklering the building for that occupancy, the corridors don't have to be rated anyways. The rooms however are large enough to require 2 exits. Based on the building plan and room geometry, this is most effectively accomplished by one exit into the corridor, the second directly outside. The grass that predominates in this region is a type call St. Augustine, which has a thick blade and spongy consistency that is not conducive for wheelchairs to roll over, thus the need for some type of hard surface.
Ok, I'm bored with this, hope this puts your mind at ease.
druf,
you took time to write all this? The corridor issue wasn't part of the question to begin with...so I'm confused too why somebody would get stuck up on the corridor ratings especially when you mention that the building is fully sprinklered. But then again maybe some people don't know what that means!!!
durf: Take a look at Table 1017.1 Note Exception One applies to non sprinkled buildings. Also note you will have to provide a smoke barrier wall at your corridor sprinkled or unsprinkled by the Florida Fire Prevention Code.
Required exits is a whole other matter. Occupancy rating for Classrooms is 20 net square feet per occupant. How large are your classrooms? Your allowed up to 50 occupants (1,000 net square feet of room) before you are required to provide two exits out of a room. Only 1 of these exits is required to be accessible.
11-4.1.2 Accessible site and exterior facilities: new construction.
This edition of the code does not apply to buildings, structures, or facilities which were either under construction or under contract for construction on October 1,1997.
Nothing in this code shall be construed to relieve the owner of any building, structure or facility from the duty to provide vertical accessibility to all levels above and below the occupiable grade level, regardless of whether the code requires an elevator to be installed in such building, structure or facility, except: (1) elevator pits, elevator penthouses, mechanical rooms, piping or equipment catwalks, and automobile lubrication and maintenance pits and platforms; (2) unoccupiable spaces, such as rooms, enclosed spaces, and storage spaces that are not designed for human occupancy, for public accommodations, or for work areas; and (3) occupiable spaces and rooms that are not open to the public and that house no more than five persons including, but not limited to, equipment control rooms and projection booths. However as provided in Section 553.509, Florida Statutes, buildings, structures, and facilities must, at a minimum, comply with the requirements of the ADAAG. Therefore, facilities subject to the ADAAG may be required to provide vertical access to areas otherwise exempt under Section 11-4.1.3(5) of this code.
An accessible site shall meet the following minimum requirements:
(1) At least one accessible route complying with Section 11-4.3 shall be provided within the boundary of the site from public transportation stops, accessible parking spaces, passenger loading zones if provided, and public streets or sidewalks, to an accessible building entrance.
(2) At least one accessible route complying with Section 11-4.3 shall connect accessible buildings, accessible facilities, accessible elements, and accessible spaces that are on the same site.
(3) All objects that protrude from surfaces or posts into circulation paths shall comply with Section 11-4.4.
(4) Ground surfaces along accessible routes and in accessible spaces shall comply with Section 11-4.5.
Oh ya, if you look at your Code you will see it is authored by The ICBO. This is common, then the Individual States amend it to their liking. So in a way you are right about the Florida State Building Code.
HelloI am glad with your created site. I think it will work successfully and gain a lot members.
Regards,
Keegan
Tommy Bahama Comforter
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