Yeah if those "artsy", "hip", "cool", "trendy" and "green" desgin magzines had black editor-in-chief, articles that they cover would have been very different.
IMO, having children is the kiss of death career wise for women architects. most of the ones who make it, are obviously talented, but have taken a pass on motherhood. very simply, architects make the least amount of money in a woman's childbearing years. therefore, making it impossible to stay in the profession as the sole earner while your partner stays at home with the rugrats. I would think that maybe architect/architect combos make this work more successfully though?
i think it's a huge benefit to get your license BEFORE having children in order to jump back into the profession post-kids with creds....thoughts?
no, i understand your point, but where you live, how many architects/doctors/lawyers/teachers/scientists/brokers do you know, and more importantly do kids at an elementary level care about what their elders do?
the problem is again; and perhaps this is where you are missing my point, is that we, as a profession, have been failing our communities, our neighborhoods, and our village. we don't see this as a problem. we fail to grasp the simple fact that we have a responsibility to educate the children about our the import of what we do, how we impact their lives and how they can collectively impact the futures of their surroundings.
i have gone to a few schools in an effort to reach kids and impart a little of what we do; at a 4th grade and high school level, and you know what, the 4th graders were much more interesting and engaging than the hs kids. both schools i went to were urban populations with the 4th grade being a larger mix of latino students.
for the passed year i have been trying to figure out how to get a boot camp formed for at risk students from both urban and rural areas in a program that is specifically about the built environment, sustainability, and urbanism, in an effort to get these kids - high school aged - to think seriously about a profession they probably feel that is not open to them.
this is not any small effort and not an effort to assuage some white guilt, but i see it as an effort to combat the perception that kids may have about this being a profession solely open to the privileged class or A++ students that score high on the SAT's. a perception i held when i was in school.
b3: u do get it.
when i said grade school, i assumed k-12. when i said kids dream as far as they can see, i meant that because there are so few black architects, friends of these kids' parents and people in their neighborhoods aren't architects. so in instances (outside of school) there is virtually no mentioning of the profession.
At least for some white kids, there's a CHANCE that they will be more familiar with the profession by shear probability.(there's over 100% more white architects than black)
all that being said, I applaud your efforts. More exposure is needed when it comes to black kids, poor kids, and at-risk kids at an early age.
a) on the one hand, 8 of 10 posters on archinect deride the crappy working conditions and prospects of this profession, and
b) on the other hand, we're sitting here discussing ways to make it easier for women and minorities - people who already suffer under certain disadvantages - into the profession.
imagine being a minority even within your minority group...and to top it, you look like the majority. you aren't even validated with the marks of distinction although you contain them withinn.
perhaps we are complaining because of the homogenization of the profession, and we're tired of talking to people that look like us. i know when i go to AIA events i have a difficult time talking to other architects that look like me, because i am not like them. now, if i was at an event with some of you, here on the nect it'd be different, like talking to friends from studio back east.
Inspite of the snark content, this discussion is pretty interesting and definitely needs to be a recurring conversation. My experience is that academia and the professional practice are all for thinking about inequalities and discrimination except when it demands a meaningful reevaluation of their own bias and perspective. This isn't just an issue contained within the hiring process; it affects project selection and design as well.
It also seems that generating lists of names does not illuminate how much 'progress' has been 'made', but totally underscores the disproportionate make-up of this profession. how about that list of white/male/hetero/abled principals?
Has anyone here read Designing for Diversity by Kathryn H. Anthony (an architecture & gender studies prof at University Illinois Urbana Champaign)? It was mentioned in another book I'm reading right now and was curious about how worthwhile a read it is, before picking up a copy.
Frankly I don't think the architecture profession purposefully discriminates against minorities. I think minorities CHOOSE to explore other options (law, medicine) because architecture (and the arts in general) are hard to bank on and have low returns for high input.
I was in a scholarship program for minorities, and most of them went on to more lucrative professions. The few that didnt are scattered in the arts. And a great bulk of them are actually in teaching, a profession where you can really give "back" to the community.
I'm sorry, I don't see argentina, germany, mexico or korea as getting some sort of minority stamp - first of all, my class if chalk full of koreans. Mexico and argentina both have large sectors of society where architecture is considered a lucrative profession, especially amongst wealthy families. And Germany - well, germany has been a first world country for quite a while now. The question is not where people are from, but what hurdles they have to go through to get where they are.
And as for women in the profession - well, the 80 hours a week being what they are, I dont know of any woman that could endure a pregnancy with that kind of schedule. Women always have to quit at some point, usually due to pregnancy, and that will stall their careers.
the fact that we have to make lists of people like
hey wait a second there's.... jeanne gang.. and carme pinos... and.... yeah... like at least 3 others!
and yeah there's david adjaye!
the fact that we HAVE TO POINT THEM OUT AS SEPARATE means that it's still not mainstream to be female or a minority architect. Also, to the people who listed foreign names as minorities... that's REALLY not the same thing.
i DO agree with.._. .._ _._. _._ because it's true we will just need to wait another 30 years or so to maybe see the emerging minority/female talent.
"And as for women in the profession - well, the 80 hours a week being what they are, I dont know of any woman that could endure a pregnancy with that kind of schedule. Women always have to quit at some point, usually due to pregnancy, and that will stall their careers. "
But women in other professions do not have stalled careers due to pregnancy,including law and I see many female doctors.Do they work less hours? No.Why does this happen in architecture??
My OB doc is in her early 40's, and has three children, all of which she had during residency and the early part of her professional career. She now has a successful private practice. I asked her the same thing when I was preggo - how the F did you do that? She said the hours were tough but she managed and of course once her kids were born she could afford an at-home nanny while she worked.
I think the argument about the demand of workload being too much for pregnant/working moms is weak. It's too dependent upon each woman's experience during pregnany which varies WIDELY. I know women that could barely eat/get out of bed for a large part of pregnancy. On the other hand, I had very little sickness and worked until two days before the big day. I think our culture EXPECTS a pregnant woman to be less productive, and so the workplace reacts as such. We will continue to have fewer women in leadership roles unless firms realize that there is value in maintaining relationships with moms/architects.
We have advancements in technology that would enable me to do my job from home (or anywhere, really), and the industry needs to catch up and use these tools to be more cooperative with alternative schedules. I am fortunate to work for a company that supports my choice to start a family. The value I bring to the office is worth cooperating with me so that I can telecommute for a portion of my billable hours.
I think the bigger question is why would a minority WANT to become an Architect? Given the long hours/relatively low pay for comparable work/education levels.
Most people I knew in College (who didn't study Architecture) ended up making 2x+ the average Architects wage. Many of them work fewer hours than I do. Given the state of pay in the profession, I wouldn't recommend for anyone who isn't already well off or connected to pursue Architecture. I think if we can fix the Compensation/Value equation, better representation of minorities in the profession will follow. As it stands, there is little incentive, when there are much better options for upward mobility out there.
Aug 10, 20 7:52 pm ·
·
randomised
The even bigger question is why resurrect threads over a decade old ;-)
*** Women and Minorities in architecture ***
Yeah if those "artsy", "hip", "cool", "trendy" and "green" desgin magzines had black editor-in-chief, articles that they cover would have been very different.
"at a grade school level architects were the furthest from my imagination. i wanted to be Richard Pryor"
this isnt what i was talking about. you missed my point.
i used to think paul hardcastle was a black dude....
IMO, having children is the kiss of death career wise for women architects. most of the ones who make it, are obviously talented, but have taken a pass on motherhood. very simply, architects make the least amount of money in a woman's childbearing years. therefore, making it impossible to stay in the profession as the sole earner while your partner stays at home with the rugrats. I would think that maybe architect/architect combos make this work more successfully though?
i think it's a huge benefit to get your license BEFORE having children in order to jump back into the profession post-kids with creds....thoughts?
no, i understand your point, but where you live, how many architects/doctors/lawyers/teachers/scientists/brokers do you know, and more importantly do kids at an elementary level care about what their elders do?
the problem is again; and perhaps this is where you are missing my point, is that we, as a profession, have been failing our communities, our neighborhoods, and our village. we don't see this as a problem. we fail to grasp the simple fact that we have a responsibility to educate the children about our the import of what we do, how we impact their lives and how they can collectively impact the futures of their surroundings.
i have gone to a few schools in an effort to reach kids and impart a little of what we do; at a 4th grade and high school level, and you know what, the 4th graders were much more interesting and engaging than the hs kids. both schools i went to were urban populations with the 4th grade being a larger mix of latino students.
for the passed year i have been trying to figure out how to get a boot camp formed for at risk students from both urban and rural areas in a program that is specifically about the built environment, sustainability, and urbanism, in an effort to get these kids - high school aged - to think seriously about a profession they probably feel that is not open to them.
this is not any small effort and not an effort to assuage some white guilt, but i see it as an effort to combat the perception that kids may have about this being a profession solely open to the privileged class or A++ students that score high on the SAT's. a perception i held when i was in school.
so i get it.
b3: u do get it.
when i said grade school, i assumed k-12. when i said kids dream as far as they can see, i meant that because there are so few black architects, friends of these kids' parents and people in their neighborhoods aren't architects. so in instances (outside of school) there is virtually no mentioning of the profession.
At least for some white kids, there's a CHANCE that they will be more familiar with the profession by shear probability.(there's over 100% more white architects than black)
all that being said, I applaud your efforts. More exposure is needed when it comes to black kids, poor kids, and at-risk kids at an early age.
does anybody besides me find it odd that:
a) on the one hand, 8 of 10 posters on archinect deride the crappy working conditions and prospects of this profession, and
b) on the other hand, we're sitting here discussing ways to make it easier for women and minorities - people who already suffer under certain disadvantages - into the profession.
I'm just saying ......
perhaps that's what we need? more not less people to share our pain?
so - how does that work?
imagine being a minority even within your minority group...and to top it, you look like the majority. you aren't even validated with the marks of distinction although you contain them withinn.
HELP THIS IS URGENT....
WHO ARE THE FUCKING MINORITIES IN FUCKING ARCHITECTURE? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
straight white dudes.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVOOO
8-------------------------------------------------------------------->
FUCK
888
lol
u okay dude?
...
u want some jizz? i got lots left in the fridge
file, i was kidding.
perhaps we are complaining because of the homogenization of the profession, and we're tired of talking to people that look like us. i know when i go to AIA events i have a difficult time talking to other architects that look like me, because i am not like them. now, if i was at an event with some of you, here on the nect it'd be different, like talking to friends from studio back east.
Oh brother.
31 winners -
4 asians
1 woman
very rich architects are a minority
very poor ones too
Inspite of the snark content, this discussion is pretty interesting and definitely needs to be a recurring conversation. My experience is that academia and the professional practice are all for thinking about inequalities and discrimination except when it demands a meaningful reevaluation of their own bias and perspective. This isn't just an issue contained within the hiring process; it affects project selection and design as well.
It also seems that generating lists of names does not illuminate how much 'progress' has been 'made', but totally underscores the disproportionate make-up of this profession. how about that list of white/male/hetero/abled principals?
Has anyone here read Designing for Diversity by Kathryn H. Anthony (an architecture & gender studies prof at University Illinois Urbana Champaign)? It was mentioned in another book I'm reading right now and was curious about how worthwhile a read it is, before picking up a copy.
http://www.press.uillinois.edu/books/catalog/25swe6te9780252026416.html
still on page 1??
hahahaha
thanks for the *bump*
let the bashing continue....
black male - ricardo scofidio
My skin is lighter-than-the-locals, I'm male & American in Trinidad.
I AM the minority here in my field.
UGH. no comment on this thread...because I just might go into a rant like I do on others...just a quiet observer this time...
Frankly I don't think the architecture profession purposefully discriminates against minorities. I think minorities CHOOSE to explore other options (law, medicine) because architecture (and the arts in general) are hard to bank on and have low returns for high input.
I was in a scholarship program for minorities, and most of them went on to more lucrative professions. The few that didnt are scattered in the arts. And a great bulk of them are actually in teaching, a profession where you can really give "back" to the community.
I'm sorry, I don't see argentina, germany, mexico or korea as getting some sort of minority stamp - first of all, my class if chalk full of koreans. Mexico and argentina both have large sectors of society where architecture is considered a lucrative profession, especially amongst wealthy families. And Germany - well, germany has been a first world country for quite a while now. The question is not where people are from, but what hurdles they have to go through to get where they are.
And as for women in the profession - well, the 80 hours a week being what they are, I dont know of any woman that could endure a pregnancy with that kind of schedule. Women always have to quit at some point, usually due to pregnancy, and that will stall their careers.
the fact that we have to make lists of people like
hey wait a second there's.... jeanne gang.. and carme pinos... and.... yeah... like at least 3 others!
and yeah there's david adjaye!
the fact that we HAVE TO POINT THEM OUT AS SEPARATE means that it's still not mainstream to be female or a minority architect. Also, to the people who listed foreign names as minorities... that's REALLY not the same thing.
i DO agree with.._. .._ _._. _._ because it's true we will just need to wait another 30 years or so to maybe see the emerging minority/female talent.
I totally agree with keopi!
"And as for women in the profession - well, the 80 hours a week being what they are, I dont know of any woman that could endure a pregnancy with that kind of schedule. Women always have to quit at some point, usually due to pregnancy, and that will stall their careers. "
But women in other professions do not have stalled careers due to pregnancy,including law and I see many female doctors.Do they work less hours? No.Why does this happen in architecture??
My OB doc is in her early 40's, and has three children, all of which she had during residency and the early part of her professional career. She now has a successful private practice. I asked her the same thing when I was preggo - how the F did you do that? She said the hours were tough but she managed and of course once her kids were born she could afford an at-home nanny while she worked.
I think the argument about the demand of workload being too much for pregnant/working moms is weak. It's too dependent upon each woman's experience during pregnany which varies WIDELY. I know women that could barely eat/get out of bed for a large part of pregnancy. On the other hand, I had very little sickness and worked until two days before the big day. I think our culture EXPECTS a pregnant woman to be less productive, and so the workplace reacts as such. We will continue to have fewer women in leadership roles unless firms realize that there is value in maintaining relationships with moms/architects.
We have advancements in technology that would enable me to do my job from home (or anywhere, really), and the industry needs to catch up and use these tools to be more cooperative with alternative schedules. I am fortunate to work for a company that supports my choice to start a family. The value I bring to the office is worth cooperating with me so that I can telecommute for a portion of my billable hours.
I think the bigger question is why would a minority WANT to become an Architect? Given the long hours/relatively low pay for comparable work/education levels.
Most people I knew in College (who didn't study Architecture) ended up making 2x+ the average Architects wage. Many of them work fewer hours than I do. Given the state of pay in the profession, I wouldn't recommend for anyone who isn't already well off or connected to pursue Architecture. I think if we can fix the Compensation/Value equation, better representation of minorities in the profession will follow. As it stands, there is little incentive, when there are much better options for upward mobility out there.
The even bigger question is why resurrect threads over a decade old ;-)
https://shrinkme.io/Qzs6qg
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