joben - Do you already have a BArch? If so I would probably suggest you skip the MArch. It's a financial sacrifice which probably will not get you anything in the long run. However if you don't have an accredited BArch already it's necessary if you ever want to call yourself an Architect someday. I'm a contrarian here and think there is little dollar value to the fancy degree. What good is it to emerge this economy with just more debt?
well to be honest, i do not have the job i want by any means. i can not find a firm here who is hiring, and all of the good work is being done by groups of 1 or 2. i'm doing construction for the summer and i hate it. but, i haven't complained once on here.
people have complained on archinect for so long now, it is time to change things and do something about it rather than continue to complain. create groups or write politicians. anything really. may sound naive, but it sure is better than sitting around complaining about a terrible economy and staring at a computer screen. and to say "For those that are "untouched" by the current dire straits of economic downturn, ignorance is absolute bliss!!! Folks scoff at the notion of complaining - "COMPLAINTS?!?! WHAT'S SOOO BAD?!?!?" Yes folks, there are out-of-touch people, try not to punch....."
seems a bit egotistical and out of touch yourself, especially if you are implying that you feel special because you are looking at the recession from a more enlightened view. it's not that hard for every one to see the struggle, and certainly not as difficult to notice as you perceive it to be. we are all adults here.
you can surely "bitch like crazy all you want", but if that is ALL you are doing, i don't see the benefit. we've heard it 1,000 times. i encourage you to now find a solution, or at least talk about one. thanks.
Ok, on that note.....it's our right as Americans to complain, to dwell on and to BITCH AND MOAN ALL THE HELL WE WANT TO!!!!!
You don't have a job you want...well who the hell ever does?!?!? But you have a job, so you're one lucky son-of-a-gun, in light of the ecomony!
Nope, complaining, is not what I or the other unemployed/laid off designer types do all day. We apply for the jobs high and low, near and far. For whatever they will give us. Just get our foot in the door....
But not a whole lot out there. Please Harp, educate us as to HOW a designer kick starts an economy? The flood doesn't begin from us, it begins from the owners with the banks lending money. Bottom line.
The start of this thread, like so many becomes convaluted and disjunctured.
The frustration that a lot of us have had as degreed professionals is there's no "Option A" (as there are little design jobs) and "Option B" is just not happening - WE'RE OVERQUALIFIED!!!! HIP-HIP-HOORAY!!
I heard that tonight while I was for dinner to be ready. Saw it on a TV commercial, thought of you harpster.
Construction, a good gig to be in right now if you can't be doing drawing side. It's work related to the profession - probably more valuable experience than what you received in course work. I believe in the hands on approach / experience. You may not like it, but damn it's something invaluable unless they have you doing something minial, i.e. sweeping, making coffee in the job trailer, etc.
Back to your point, Harp...yes you're tired of us bitching and moaning - "hey f-ers go do something about it - find a solution."
Well believe me, I think a lot are trying to find solutions.
No one on this blog / board / thread / site is the exact same, but then most of us have common ground we share. Some are single, others are not. Some are childless, others have kids dependent on their livliehood. When you have a lot at stake and many years under your belt, you get a little pissed off at the situation. You may vent. You may think. You may do. Our actions don't always work or bear fruit and THAT is what is frustrating.
There are a lot of out-of-work architects, myself included. Many are coming on to Archinect to commiserate with others in like situations (it's a natural psychological need), and to share information that could be helpful. This thread in particular is about ways to FUCKING SURVIVE when jobs of all types are in short supply. For ANYONE to come in here pointing fingers at "complainers" is beyond insulting, and is incredibly insensitive. And since this thread is specifically about survival jobs, the people complaining about complainers are nothing more than hypocrite trolls.
Lookout - I agree. Those who see threads like this survival one and the layoffs, layoffs as just complaining should just not click on them. What's wrong with letting someone vent for a while? I doubt anyone throwing around the term "complainers" would offer to trade places with an unemployed Archinector.
Right now there are tens of thousands of unemployed or underemployed architects. In many parts of the country I would dare say they are the majority while those still working full time are the minority. And quite frankly, from what I've seen locally to me, there isn't anything positive to say about work in traditional architecture -or survival work these days. Both are dead ends.
If someone is angry of constantly being told they are "over qualified" or "not a good fit" for low pay service survival jobs, it's better they bitch on the Archinect forum than going postal at their old Architecture place of employment. Just my 2 cents.
The original point I made earlier was related to the feeling I had about people being self-pitiful, and the comments I made were in hope to change your opinions about the complete negative state of mind some of you seem to be involved in. I do apologize if I have seemed curt or impolite, but I care deeply about certain issues that need to be addressed. I'de like to see some hopeful faces is all.
I would say it is not beneficial at all for there to be such a large percentage of people having awful character dictated by the affairs of world financial enigma, and there to be such a low percentage of people at least conversing about why the things are the way they are, then perhaps and hopefully leading to some sort of prolific sharing of ideas and solutions to the problem. Government is a very broad topic and should be discussed thoroughly, as I believe has an extreme direct relationship to the problems we are facing currently with possibility of pecuniary collapse.
I do understand the need for a community of Architects and people to discuss these issues, and felt this group of people would also be up to the task of talking more about the underlying currents. Maybe lookout kid has a valid point when saying this should be a thread discussing ideas of ways to survive, instead of focusing on the negative aspect of this issue ("can't find a survival job...") which would be related to empathetic subdued sympathy.
Pointing fingers at anyone isn't very productive, and as lookout kid suggests, can become insulting. I do feel it is fruitful however, to acknowledge the fact that the problems we are discussing have been discussed and beat to death over a period of the last several years, with no apparent progression or evolution, other than the trite idea that it is hard to find a job. I don't personally see these particular threads as only threads that are complaining, but just a few good ideas that have been repeated. Also, as aquapura points out, I really don't think there is anything wrong with "venting," especially because I've done so in the past. And aquapura, I would no doubt be willing to trade places with anyone on here, just for the learning experience. I am not exactly in the best of situations, but no one is and we all know it so let's move on.
I would love to be overqualified.
Part of the problem may stem from the education system, where the United States denies a firm grasp of Architecture and the understanding of the progression of built spaces. We are far behind in the world, and there should be people like us creating groups to educate the citizens of the world about why terrible buildings create terrible lives.
The main problem we are dealing with is the stealing of money from large corporations, which leaves many Americans unable to afford Architectural services. Unfortunately, it does not seem like regular people have a say in much of what is going on anymore, so these solutions seem unmanageable.
Do construction management for virtual properties in Second Life. Everyone needs to be reassured that their online imaginary world will be finished on time and under budget.
Regarding construction work- I could use some advice on how to get a decent job doing construction but avoid "doing something minial, i.e. sweeping, making coffee in the job trailer, etc", as BlackFlag said. I am not afraid of manual labor, but I would like to be actualy learning a trade.
Should I just call construction companies and tell them that I want to do construction but not the mindless work? I don't think that would be very well received, even if I phrased it nicely.
Just up an update- Finally found a paying "survival" gig!
I'm now a Customer Service Rep for a global phone, computer and software manufacturer - that has a fruit for a logo!
3 weeks of 8hr per day of training- grueling.
I'm making $10.50 an hour. WooHoo for slowing the saving and retirement losses.
This company has taken in many laid-off professionals, there are Architects, CPA's, Engineers, Construction PM's, RE Sales pro's... and the list goes on. All have the same story as mine and are treading water just the same.
Working 4-10's, to have extra days off to- work as a property manager and take on remodeling projects, or work on my own digital/paper and design/build projects.
This has been a 1yr search and I've had to dumb down my resume to get this gig.
Up until this last year, I have survived every layoff that had come along in the industry over the last 16 yrs. and have generally been able to roll out of bed and find a job in my profession.
This has been a very humbling experience and a big karmic debt repayment.
I'm still sending out resumes like mad trying to find anything. Even if its government construction, contract admin or something that pays closer to - atleast- $15, until things turn around.
By fall if nothing changes, I will be taking Business and Construction management & finance courses at the local university.
Blackharp- Hang in there and don't give up your accounet here.
I think we are all in need of a pity party at the local pub. Just human nature to cry on each other shoulders.
I do agree with you about trying to turn this around, but it can be daunting.
Here on the west coast, we are in worst shape than some other parts of the country, if I'm reading the economic news correctly. Even archinect job postings show more consistant activity on the east coast than over here.
so i know it's bad out there, and i'm lucky to be in school for a few more years, but i am/was looking for summer work to at least take care of my cellphone bill, etc. in the meantime.
after getting various rejections from about 1684030 places, i remembered that museum bookstores may be a place to check out (!)
so when i called the bookstore at a museum with a particularly strong architectural bent, the manager literally scoffed at me and barely choked out a "no" through his sinister laugh before hanging up the phone.
le sigh.
(i'm still trying to figure out why the scoff. . . i can only think that (1) i'm the millionth caller that day or (2) he finds it insatiable that i even had the galls to ask)
djohnson - Congrats on finding something to tie you over through these stormy, crappy times. I hope things pick up so you can be back doing what you really want to do - because it means we will all be back doing what we were meant to do!!! Right?!?!? Sounds like we've been in this profession about the same time (15+ years) and have weathered some minor downturns (layoffs due to a firm's lack of project diversification, etc.?). Godspeed and good luck dj!
uhhhh - i was in school back in the early 90s. I had a hell of a time getting summer work because my folks lived in a certain Mid-West city that had a university with a STRONG co-op program. It was "cheap" labor and almost a "legacy" for some firms to take in these particular students. Summer jobs for me? Working docks for department stores or light manufacturers. Not glamorous, not fun, not mentally stimulating - well actually I could do my work and also think about design ideas and other creative outlets.....
anyway uhhhh, back to Mr. Scoff at the museum bookstore with an architectural bent.....hate to be negative but would you really want to work with or for a prick like that? Life's too short to deal with assholes like that. Pardon my French, but someone like that should be respectful to ANYONE that calls, prospective employee could be future bookstore customer (you know when things are just gravy and you're making the big money after school.) I hope you don't buy from that museum bookstore - those places are notorious for being over priced. I strongly recommend places like Half-Price Books. I once picked up a brand new Arch Graph Standards for 1/3 of the list price - like stealing, but not really. Good luck young one - don't let the Mr. and Ms. Scoffs of the design culture (as peripheral a museum bookstore manager) get you down....
djohnson - my sentiments reflect what BF said above. It's funny that after a major stint away from the 'boards' of archinect, I am back. Unfortunately it is b/c I too have recently lost my job. Out of no-where I got hit like a freight train with the news. No inclination prior to that this was to occur. Sadly I feel it was not only partially the economy, but also the insatiable hate of one office mgr within the organization. Sad that some have to rejoice in the misfortune of others.
Alas, above all of this, I recently closed on my condo. And then I come to work the next week, and I get this news. I'm extremely bumbed, scared, shellshocked. You name it. I too was thinking that I could secure a "second" job to just get a bit of extra spending money, now I find myself scratching and clawing to find something, and out here on the west coast, it seems like many many arch firms are not hiring AT all. That's the biggest scare that I get. I thought I was going to survive things and had a bright outlook (for everyone else) that the economy would rebound beginning in Aug of this year. Now, as you can imagine, it can't rebound (show signs anyway) fast enough for me. And to add insult to injury, I am what you would consider a Architect/Designer II level type (ie: 5-8 yrs) and so sometimes I feel like it's limbo b/c I dont have enough experience for PM/PA type position, but def. not a intermediate level arch/designer either.
Sorry for the rant, I suppose I just need to share in my misery with others who are in the same boat.
Good luck to those who are doing better than I.
Btw, Djohnson....I think I am also hitting up that same company to help supplement whatever other job I can scrounge up! I hope they call!!!
damn squirrelly. keep your head up. it's worked for me.
i've been unemployed since i graduated 13 months ago. but i had a supportive wife to help get me through...oh wait, that was until she left me by email (complete with bullet points) and recently served me divorce papers. she left me with nothing. no job. no car. no money. and now i face legal bills.
therapy, mediatation, and buddhism - the holy trinity that has gotten me through.
best of luck squirrelly, i know the mountain feels awfully tall, but don't think about the top, just concentrate on each step.
MArch n': Man, that is extremely tough. I am sorry to hear about the situation. I guess the worst part seems to be how she did it. Nevertheless, I've always said that these things only make is better people for having survived it.
Yes, that mountain sure does look like Everest, but gotta take one breath, and one step, and look to see where i am. I wish you the best too mate. Lets keep positive. Like I said, I feel the economy has to begin recovery......just believing that it will be soon!!
you're right. the hardest part was/is trying to understand how you can be done that way. but at the end of the day, that's her burden. the only person that controls my or your or anyone's happiness is within us all. no relationship defines you, no job.
i had always been worried about what had just happened to me or what was about to happen to me. too bad living that way caused me to miss out on my 'present' life. live presently because you never know what tomorrow will bring and yesterday is yesterday.
MArch n' unemployed... You're not alone. I lost my job in January and at the same time my wife left me, not for that reason, just "don't love me any more". Just F-ing lovely. So, I might lose my house soon, as the unemployment has almost run out and here it is 6 months later and still no job. I have never put more applications and resumes etc. in to places in my life. It's absolutely insane. And I've been applying to a lot more jobs than just strictly architecture. So, at least you guys aren't alone. I guess we'll all sink on this ship together. Anyone bring any cyanide pills ?
I don't know what to say to you guys who've had wives leave you. That's just a kick in the crotch - it's not f-ing fair!!! Most of us take vows of "for better or for worse, through sickness and health" - I think being unemployed for months falls under the "or for worse" category. Stay as strong as you can and I hope things turn up for you.
Hey everyone, I'm newly registered on the boards, thought I'd toss something into the mix here before anything else.
Something that's always worked for me, at least as a fantastic networking tool, is to take my work outside. Today I started building a keyboard stand for my girlfriend out on my porch, and got offered a part time gig doing rough carpentry for a local artist. People are naturally curious about what other people are doing if it isn't something immediately familiar like walking or breathing.
So... maybe take your drafting table to the farmers market? Draw up the local buildings, sell those, get random people off the street to hire you to design a remodel, or whatever. You could probably charge more than $10/hr for those types of gigs, and hey, free publicity.
Or exploit some other random talent of yours. As long as it isn't extremely boring or cliche, it will grab people's attention. Maybe not in self-oriented places like NYC, but any town where you can exchange a friendly "hello" with someone you make eye contact with should support this sort of endeavor. Now, if it is something boring, say for instance, knitting, make it ridiculous. Knit something like you're a character from a Dr. Seuss book.
I don't really know why I've written all of this, I just saw all of this depressing stuff and had to toss in some sort of solution type thing. I mean, if you're unemployed, why not sit outside and bring the prospectives to you?
Or how bout this. Every third person at my firm is talking about buying up a foreclosure on the cheap. They are afraid to follow through because those houses have been converted to crack dens or roach colonies. People want to buy these cheap houses, but the thought of fixing them up scares them away. Mayhaps they could use the services of... Dah dah dah! The Foreclosure Restorer! Go on craigslist and seek out a skilled electrician, plumber, framer, and start a small crew that can walk into a poopcan of residential dereliction and turn it into a foundation for a dream home. Think of all the awesome challenges you'll have to solve cheaply and efficiently! It would be some sort of design/build bootcamp, and may even help you recession proof yourself.
It's late, I apologize if this doesn't make sense.
Has anyone thought of teaching.. high school, middle school ..
architects will be great for technology education.
it will be great to contribute to our society even if its for a little while.
summers off and time to study for ARE. It definetely pays the bill if you did not have a lavish lifestyle prior..
Can anyone give me any insight, opinion or just general knowledge on going to grad school for architecture? I did my undergrad in zoology and decided that this is something I want to do, however the more I look into the more Im getting worried if financially it even makes sense. This is something I have been passionate about, Im taking a pre architecture program in nyc this fall just to get a taste of it. Can I just get ideas on ...if it is a dying profession, will I be able to get a job in 3 years, and would I be better of going into civil engineering? Anything will help!! Thank you..
I got a job at Hallmark for minimum wage, part time. It will help but not nearly what I expected after graduation! My husband and I are both looking. Ugh! While I really do enjoy working at Hallmark, I would LOVE to get a job in architecture.
Is there any form of support the government gives to people that have recently graduated and can't find employment? My friends that have been laid off from their jobs get unemployment benefits. Do we have anything we can do?
I've been practicing in architecture (mostly) for about 30 years now, 27 years or so as a licensed architect.
First of all, I wonder if you know any architects who might be willing to sit down with you and talk, or even better, let you "shadow" them in their workplace during a typical day?
The biggest (and for most archi grads, most deflating) discovery after graduating from school is how different from school the workplace is.
School is hard, but fun - you are the design god for your project in each design studio, and you don't have to consider budget, clients' preferences, codes of various sorts, etc.
On the other hand, work is hard, but often tedious. Don't expect to get building design responsibility right away, unless you are extraordinarily gifted, or know some wealthy folks who are willing to hire you right away to design there vacation get-away!
Architecture isn't dying, but architecture as many of us experienced it at the beginning of our careers has changed almost beyond recognition. Some of the changes are terrific (more women practicing, greater emphasis on clear communication, less Howard Roarke-style ego. But architects as "Project Leaders" are being challenged on many fronts, including Program Managers, hired client representatives, design/build firms, etc.
In answer to your questions about work availability, I entered architecture school in 1974 during the worst (up til then) recession since the Great Depression. I fully expected to work a little, get laid off, work a little more, and so on. Instead, I am grateful that until the beginning of this year, I worked steadily as an architect for almost a full career.
I wish you the best! The good news is that architects are some of the best people in the world! Funny, interesting, energetic, optimisitc. It can be a great work environment even if the new challenges are very daunting.
One more thing, there may be a "shake-out" among people practicing as architects (see contributions above), so the market may be ready for a new entry class full of dreams and energy!
Stylenrail-
I really appreciate your feedback. Its made me a lot more reassured about architecture. You seem very optimistic which is like a breath of fresh air at the moment. Once I get to nyc, I will find a firm that will let me shadow their architects and get a better feel about everything. Im hoping to find someone that will let me ask them anything, and let me see everything they do. I really want to learn as much as possible. Do you mind me asking what you did specifically? Are you in one of the coastal cities? Is it true that their are more jobs in coastal cities then anywhere else? Thank you so much again for your great post and your insight! I look forward to hearing back from you!
I'm afraid I can't say much about where the jobs are these days... if you read my notes closely, you'll notice that I've been unemployed since January, although I'm working on a few leads at the moment.
I live in the Midwest. I was fortunate to work in many kinds of places as I mentioned, from not-for-profit to government to larger more "traditional" type firms. I learned from every job! I was very lucky to be at one place for more than 15 years that was named one of the "best places to work" in the US multiple times, and I'd have to agree with that title. Some of it is luck and seizing opportunity when it appears, I suppose. Staying busy doing something seems to keep the game going as well until that great opportunity comes along.
If I have any more advice, it's this: if you know where you want to settle down, go to school as close to that location as possible. School reputations are a bit like ripples in a pond - they're biggest near the source and fade as you move farther away. Besides reputations of course, there's the whole issue of networking and contacts among local alumni.
I went to a great school for my M.Arch, but it is located nearly a thousand miles from where I ultimately wanted to live, so it took time to find positions and move closer to my "destination" over time.
If you go ahead with your plans to enter architecture, please don't cuss me later - as i mentioned earlier, there's a lot to be desired sometimes about the work. But overall, I guess I'm glad I did this...
Yep. I just graduated with my masters and can't find work to save my life. My old firm is hurting so they won't take me back. I even applied for a retail job, but didn't get it because I was overqualified.
Times are tough, but don't give up hope. It may not seem so now, but this job environment will actually make us stronger in the long run.
I graduated first in my class from top ivy league masters program, have been applying to every job posting I can find that vaguely fits me and also have been sending resumes and portfolios to every firm i want to work for. I've exhausted my current contacts, and am exhausting quickly my finances and my wife's patience. So far I've only gotten one interview and no other responses.
As far as I know, only a few in my class have any sort of job at all. With the economy so bad, it seems like entry to the profession is a nest of gatekeepers and keymasters, and I can't get nor find a break in this game.
DR Zaius
Sorry to hear about your lack of finding work. Graduating top in your class from an ivy league school is an accomplishment in itself and I feel your pain. Recently being laid off and finding work has been hard. But I did what I had to do to pay the bills. Took a job that paid me hourly for what work they had and finally getting a job that even though I took at the time out of necessity I have actually gotten to love and was better than any job that I had for the past 4 years.
You almost write as if because your placed in the top of your ivy league school that you deserve employment over the rest us that might be in a similar situation.
Feeling angry and disillusioned...
GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!!
You are not special!!!!!!!!!!
Get your ivy league ass up and find something!!!!!!!!
What is a minimum wage job beneath you!!!!!!!
My point is do something - sounds like you aren't doing anything.
Why dont you start there and continue to look. Sorry I cant help you with the anger - just let go - you are changing anything but frustrating yourself. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. Do something in the mean time.
I myself and plenty of people I know are doing things to get some income coming in - work at the supermarket register, teaching at schools for extra lessons and so on. But if your IVY lEAGUE ASS is to good for that sorry - cant help you!
I worked for 14-18 months at $10 an hour before I even got my first job offer out of school during bad times. But money to take care off what I need was coming in.
diversify yourself.... learn a trade... get in a shop.... use a hammer...lay some tile...sweat some copper pipe..... shingle a roof...
tooo many narrow minded folks that want an office job.....
folks need to become self employed and learn to cross market and diversify themselves a bit...... sure you can be a specialist in some field but once that stream dries up, i hope you have plan b,c,d,e,and f
Sometimes it helps to go where the jobs are and ladies and gents, there's not many places that are a worker's market. Found this info to be interesting:
I've noticed more postings for the DC area, I'm not interested in uprooting my family to chase work. I'm making my stand in TX and fighting to eek out an existence.
Yes, I'm pursuing other things that can make money (still searching, but still trying). At first I was acting like a wounded bear, oh poor me! Sympathy and hugs are all you get, and that doesn't pay the bills. I will take my chances doing something else, if it means I'm independent from others.
Ahhhh it's noble to take a min. wage jobber - way to take one for the team! But alas, YOU'RE OVERQUALIFIED!!!! No dice, my man or my lady.....
So don't get down, Buttercup! You're a PROFESSIONAL candidate for some opening, somewhere. Be creative, be resourceful, imagine "architects" don't exist - time to find something new to do...WHAT WOULD YOU DO????? Sales rep? Marketing? Educator?
If you can't find a full time job, take what you can and with time to spare, learn Revit, study for LEED, doing something to enrich your professional life...because Buttercup, this shit express is going to be losing steam some day. And when it does, you're going to want to be able to kick ass and take names. You're going to want your future boss to think "WTF!!! Why did anyone let this badass go?!?!"
THINK POSITIVE! NEVER GIVE UP! NOTHING IS FOREVER!
THIS ISN'T A SPRINT, A MORONIC DASH....IT'S A MARATHON!!!
I got a job for a few days this week, in retail, while a friend who owns a little clothing store is out of town and has asked me to cover. It pays almost $14 an hour, I just might like it!
i've been working at a running shoe store part-time the last six months; a couple weeks ago i picked up a second job selling dog shampoo. it's pretty sad, but not nearly as sad as not having a job.
Sounds like the "survival" jobs are still in retail, even though that sector has plenty of their own problems.
Was at the customer service counter in a Target store the other day and overheard someone asking about employment. The person was told that maybe they'd be hiring in October for the upcoming holiday season. Ouch!
Can't even get a survival job?!
joben - Do you already have a BArch? If so I would probably suggest you skip the MArch. It's a financial sacrifice which probably will not get you anything in the long run. However if you don't have an accredited BArch already it's necessary if you ever want to call yourself an Architect someday. I'm a contrarian here and think there is little dollar value to the fancy degree. What good is it to emerge this economy with just more debt?
well to be honest, i do not have the job i want by any means. i can not find a firm here who is hiring, and all of the good work is being done by groups of 1 or 2. i'm doing construction for the summer and i hate it. but, i haven't complained once on here.
people have complained on archinect for so long now, it is time to change things and do something about it rather than continue to complain. create groups or write politicians. anything really. may sound naive, but it sure is better than sitting around complaining about a terrible economy and staring at a computer screen. and to say "For those that are "untouched" by the current dire straits of economic downturn, ignorance is absolute bliss!!! Folks scoff at the notion of complaining - "COMPLAINTS?!?! WHAT'S SOOO BAD?!?!?" Yes folks, there are out-of-touch people, try not to punch....."
seems a bit egotistical and out of touch yourself, especially if you are implying that you feel special because you are looking at the recession from a more enlightened view. it's not that hard for every one to see the struggle, and certainly not as difficult to notice as you perceive it to be. we are all adults here.
you can surely "bitch like crazy all you want", but if that is ALL you are doing, i don't see the benefit. we've heard it 1,000 times. i encourage you to now find a solution, or at least talk about one. thanks.
Egotistical? Haaaaaaaaa, yeah!
Ok, on that note.....it's our right as Americans to complain, to dwell on and to BITCH AND MOAN ALL THE HELL WE WANT TO!!!!!
You don't have a job you want...well who the hell ever does?!?!? But you have a job, so you're one lucky son-of-a-gun, in light of the ecomony!
Nope, complaining, is not what I or the other unemployed/laid off designer types do all day. We apply for the jobs high and low, near and far. For whatever they will give us. Just get our foot in the door....
But not a whole lot out there. Please Harp, educate us as to HOW a designer kick starts an economy? The flood doesn't begin from us, it begins from the owners with the banks lending money. Bottom line.
The start of this thread, like so many becomes convaluted and disjunctured.
The frustration that a lot of us have had as degreed professionals is there's no "Option A" (as there are little design jobs) and "Option B" is just not happening - WE'RE OVERQUALIFIED!!!! HIP-HIP-HOORAY!!
Blackflag, the egotistical laid off designer....
i'm going to start teaching breakdance classes... i already have 1 studio , looking for more...
gotta learn to diversify a bit.
and doing construction is a good thing......
blackflag, i think you're missing any of my points. to try and explain would be a waste of time.
good luck
"every complaint is an opportunity"
I heard that tonight while I was for dinner to be ready. Saw it on a TV commercial, thought of you harpster.
Construction, a good gig to be in right now if you can't be doing drawing side. It's work related to the profession - probably more valuable experience than what you received in course work. I believe in the hands on approach / experience. You may not like it, but damn it's something invaluable unless they have you doing something minial, i.e. sweeping, making coffee in the job trailer, etc.
Back to your point, Harp...yes you're tired of us bitching and moaning - "hey f-ers go do something about it - find a solution."
Well believe me, I think a lot are trying to find solutions.
No one on this blog / board / thread / site is the exact same, but then most of us have common ground we share. Some are single, others are not. Some are childless, others have kids dependent on their livliehood. When you have a lot at stake and many years under your belt, you get a little pissed off at the situation. You may vent. You may think. You may do. Our actions don't always work or bear fruit and THAT is what is frustrating.
What works for one, won't work for the rest.
a quote from Anne Frank:
"think of all the beauty still left around you and be happy"
pretty damn powerful coming from her don't ya think?
There are a lot of out-of-work architects, myself included. Many are coming on to Archinect to commiserate with others in like situations (it's a natural psychological need), and to share information that could be helpful. This thread in particular is about ways to FUCKING SURVIVE when jobs of all types are in short supply. For ANYONE to come in here pointing fingers at "complainers" is beyond insulting, and is incredibly insensitive. And since this thread is specifically about survival jobs, the people complaining about complainers are nothing more than hypocrite trolls.
Lookout - I agree. Those who see threads like this survival one and the layoffs, layoffs as just complaining should just not click on them. What's wrong with letting someone vent for a while? I doubt anyone throwing around the term "complainers" would offer to trade places with an unemployed Archinector.
Right now there are tens of thousands of unemployed or underemployed architects. In many parts of the country I would dare say they are the majority while those still working full time are the minority. And quite frankly, from what I've seen locally to me, there isn't anything positive to say about work in traditional architecture -or survival work these days. Both are dead ends.
If someone is angry of constantly being told they are "over qualified" or "not a good fit" for low pay service survival jobs, it's better they bitch on the Archinect forum than going postal at their old Architecture place of employment. Just my 2 cents.
The original point I made earlier was related to the feeling I had about people being self-pitiful, and the comments I made were in hope to change your opinions about the complete negative state of mind some of you seem to be involved in. I do apologize if I have seemed curt or impolite, but I care deeply about certain issues that need to be addressed. I'de like to see some hopeful faces is all.
I would say it is not beneficial at all for there to be such a large percentage of people having awful character dictated by the affairs of world financial enigma, and there to be such a low percentage of people at least conversing about why the things are the way they are, then perhaps and hopefully leading to some sort of prolific sharing of ideas and solutions to the problem. Government is a very broad topic and should be discussed thoroughly, as I believe has an extreme direct relationship to the problems we are facing currently with possibility of pecuniary collapse.
I do understand the need for a community of Architects and people to discuss these issues, and felt this group of people would also be up to the task of talking more about the underlying currents. Maybe lookout kid has a valid point when saying this should be a thread discussing ideas of ways to survive, instead of focusing on the negative aspect of this issue ("can't find a survival job...") which would be related to empathetic subdued sympathy.
Pointing fingers at anyone isn't very productive, and as lookout kid suggests, can become insulting. I do feel it is fruitful however, to acknowledge the fact that the problems we are discussing have been discussed and beat to death over a period of the last several years, with no apparent progression or evolution, other than the trite idea that it is hard to find a job. I don't personally see these particular threads as only threads that are complaining, but just a few good ideas that have been repeated. Also, as aquapura points out, I really don't think there is anything wrong with "venting," especially because I've done so in the past. And aquapura, I would no doubt be willing to trade places with anyone on here, just for the learning experience. I am not exactly in the best of situations, but no one is and we all know it so let's move on.
I would love to be overqualified.
Part of the problem may stem from the education system, where the United States denies a firm grasp of Architecture and the understanding of the progression of built spaces. We are far behind in the world, and there should be people like us creating groups to educate the citizens of the world about why terrible buildings create terrible lives.
The main problem we are dealing with is the stealing of money from large corporations, which leaves many Americans unable to afford Architectural services. Unfortunately, it does not seem like regular people have a say in much of what is going on anymore, so these solutions seem unmanageable.
more "venting" later, friends
change terrible buildings to terrible spaces in the 6th para.
how do you remove yourself from a thread?
i think im going to wind up working for the only industry making money hand over fist in CA right now...MMJ.
Do construction management for virtual properties in Second Life. Everyone needs to be reassured that their online imaginary world will be finished on time and under budget.
i'm doing no good so i will be deleting my account
Regarding construction work- I could use some advice on how to get a decent job doing construction but avoid "doing something minial, i.e. sweeping, making coffee in the job trailer, etc", as BlackFlag said. I am not afraid of manual labor, but I would like to be actualy learning a trade.
Should I just call construction companies and tell them that I want to do construction but not the mindless work? I don't think that would be very well received, even if I phrased it nicely.
Hey All!
Just up an update- Finally found a paying "survival" gig!
I'm now a Customer Service Rep for a global phone, computer and software manufacturer - that has a fruit for a logo!
3 weeks of 8hr per day of training- grueling.
I'm making $10.50 an hour. WooHoo for slowing the saving and retirement losses.
This company has taken in many laid-off professionals, there are Architects, CPA's, Engineers, Construction PM's, RE Sales pro's... and the list goes on. All have the same story as mine and are treading water just the same.
Working 4-10's, to have extra days off to- work as a property manager and take on remodeling projects, or work on my own digital/paper and design/build projects.
This has been a 1yr search and I've had to dumb down my resume to get this gig.
Up until this last year, I have survived every layoff that had come along in the industry over the last 16 yrs. and have generally been able to roll out of bed and find a job in my profession.
This has been a very humbling experience and a big karmic debt repayment.
I'm still sending out resumes like mad trying to find anything. Even if its government construction, contract admin or something that pays closer to - atleast- $15, until things turn around.
By fall if nothing changes, I will be taking Business and Construction management & finance courses at the local university.
Blackharp- Hang in there and don't give up your accounet here.
I think we are all in need of a pity party at the local pub. Just human nature to cry on each other shoulders.
I do agree with you about trying to turn this around, but it can be daunting.
Here on the west coast, we are in worst shape than some other parts of the country, if I'm reading the economic news correctly. Even archinect job postings show more consistant activity on the east coast than over here.
If you haven't seen this Economic Strees Map, please take a look-
http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/stress_index/
I'm looking for better days and I wish you luck with finding work.
so i know it's bad out there, and i'm lucky to be in school for a few more years, but i am/was looking for summer work to at least take care of my cellphone bill, etc. in the meantime.
after getting various rejections from about 1684030 places, i remembered that museum bookstores may be a place to check out (!)
so when i called the bookstore at a museum with a particularly strong architectural bent, the manager literally scoffed at me and barely choked out a "no" through his sinister laugh before hanging up the phone.
le sigh.
(i'm still trying to figure out why the scoff. . . i can only think that (1) i'm the millionth caller that day or (2) he finds it insatiable that i even had the galls to ask)
djohnson - Congrats on finding something to tie you over through these stormy, crappy times. I hope things pick up so you can be back doing what you really want to do - because it means we will all be back doing what we were meant to do!!! Right?!?!? Sounds like we've been in this profession about the same time (15+ years) and have weathered some minor downturns (layoffs due to a firm's lack of project diversification, etc.?). Godspeed and good luck dj!
uhhhh - i was in school back in the early 90s. I had a hell of a time getting summer work because my folks lived in a certain Mid-West city that had a university with a STRONG co-op program. It was "cheap" labor and almost a "legacy" for some firms to take in these particular students. Summer jobs for me? Working docks for department stores or light manufacturers. Not glamorous, not fun, not mentally stimulating - well actually I could do my work and also think about design ideas and other creative outlets.....
anyway uhhhh, back to Mr. Scoff at the museum bookstore with an architectural bent.....hate to be negative but would you really want to work with or for a prick like that? Life's too short to deal with assholes like that. Pardon my French, but someone like that should be respectful to ANYONE that calls, prospective employee could be future bookstore customer (you know when things are just gravy and you're making the big money after school.) I hope you don't buy from that museum bookstore - those places are notorious for being over priced. I strongly recommend places like Half-Price Books. I once picked up a brand new Arch Graph Standards for 1/3 of the list price - like stealing, but not really. Good luck young one - don't let the Mr. and Ms. Scoffs of the design culture (as peripheral a museum bookstore manager) get you down....
djohnson - my sentiments reflect what BF said above. It's funny that after a major stint away from the 'boards' of archinect, I am back. Unfortunately it is b/c I too have recently lost my job. Out of no-where I got hit like a freight train with the news. No inclination prior to that this was to occur. Sadly I feel it was not only partially the economy, but also the insatiable hate of one office mgr within the organization. Sad that some have to rejoice in the misfortune of others.
Alas, above all of this, I recently closed on my condo. And then I come to work the next week, and I get this news. I'm extremely bumbed, scared, shellshocked. You name it. I too was thinking that I could secure a "second" job to just get a bit of extra spending money, now I find myself scratching and clawing to find something, and out here on the west coast, it seems like many many arch firms are not hiring AT all. That's the biggest scare that I get. I thought I was going to survive things and had a bright outlook (for everyone else) that the economy would rebound beginning in Aug of this year. Now, as you can imagine, it can't rebound (show signs anyway) fast enough for me. And to add insult to injury, I am what you would consider a Architect/Designer II level type (ie: 5-8 yrs) and so sometimes I feel like it's limbo b/c I dont have enough experience for PM/PA type position, but def. not a intermediate level arch/designer either.
Sorry for the rant, I suppose I just need to share in my misery with others who are in the same boat.
Good luck to those who are doing better than I.
Btw, Djohnson....I think I am also hitting up that same company to help supplement whatever other job I can scrounge up! I hope they call!!!
damn squirrelly. keep your head up. it's worked for me.
i've been unemployed since i graduated 13 months ago. but i had a supportive wife to help get me through...oh wait, that was until she left me by email (complete with bullet points) and recently served me divorce papers. she left me with nothing. no job. no car. no money. and now i face legal bills.
therapy, mediatation, and buddhism - the holy trinity that has gotten me through.
best of luck squirrelly, i know the mountain feels awfully tall, but don't think about the top, just concentrate on each step.
MArch n': Man, that is extremely tough. I am sorry to hear about the situation. I guess the worst part seems to be how she did it. Nevertheless, I've always said that these things only make is better people for having survived it.
Yes, that mountain sure does look like Everest, but gotta take one breath, and one step, and look to see where i am. I wish you the best too mate. Lets keep positive. Like I said, I feel the economy has to begin recovery......just believing that it will be soon!!
oops, I meant to say "make US better people"
you're right. the hardest part was/is trying to understand how you can be done that way. but at the end of the day, that's her burden. the only person that controls my or your or anyone's happiness is within us all. no relationship defines you, no job.
i had always been worried about what had just happened to me or what was about to happen to me. too bad living that way caused me to miss out on my 'present' life. live presently because you never know what tomorrow will bring and yesterday is yesterday.
good luck squirrelly...and others
MArch n' unemployed... You're not alone. I lost my job in January and at the same time my wife left me, not for that reason, just "don't love me any more". Just F-ing lovely. So, I might lose my house soon, as the unemployment has almost run out and here it is 6 months later and still no job. I have never put more applications and resumes etc. in to places in my life. It's absolutely insane. And I've been applying to a lot more jobs than just strictly architecture. So, at least you guys aren't alone. I guess we'll all sink on this ship together. Anyone bring any cyanide pills ?
I don't know what to say to you guys who've had wives leave you. That's just a kick in the crotch - it's not f-ing fair!!! Most of us take vows of "for better or for worse, through sickness and health" - I think being unemployed for months falls under the "or for worse" category. Stay as strong as you can and I hope things turn up for you.
hang in there guys...i know that doesn't sound like much, but hang in there.
have you tried the jobs posted here on archinect (or is it all just eye-wash)?
haven't seen any thread (yet) regarding anyone raving about the jobs on here. might be worth a shot, or a networking opportunity if anything.
good luck!
Hey everyone, I'm newly registered on the boards, thought I'd toss something into the mix here before anything else.
Something that's always worked for me, at least as a fantastic networking tool, is to take my work outside. Today I started building a keyboard stand for my girlfriend out on my porch, and got offered a part time gig doing rough carpentry for a local artist. People are naturally curious about what other people are doing if it isn't something immediately familiar like walking or breathing.
So... maybe take your drafting table to the farmers market? Draw up the local buildings, sell those, get random people off the street to hire you to design a remodel, or whatever. You could probably charge more than $10/hr for those types of gigs, and hey, free publicity.
Or exploit some other random talent of yours. As long as it isn't extremely boring or cliche, it will grab people's attention. Maybe not in self-oriented places like NYC, but any town where you can exchange a friendly "hello" with someone you make eye contact with should support this sort of endeavor. Now, if it is something boring, say for instance, knitting, make it ridiculous. Knit something like you're a character from a Dr. Seuss book.
I don't really know why I've written all of this, I just saw all of this depressing stuff and had to toss in some sort of solution type thing. I mean, if you're unemployed, why not sit outside and bring the prospectives to you?
Or how bout this. Every third person at my firm is talking about buying up a foreclosure on the cheap. They are afraid to follow through because those houses have been converted to crack dens or roach colonies. People want to buy these cheap houses, but the thought of fixing them up scares them away. Mayhaps they could use the services of... Dah dah dah! The Foreclosure Restorer! Go on craigslist and seek out a skilled electrician, plumber, framer, and start a small crew that can walk into a poopcan of residential dereliction and turn it into a foundation for a dream home. Think of all the awesome challenges you'll have to solve cheaply and efficiently! It would be some sort of design/build bootcamp, and may even help you recession proof yourself.
It's late, I apologize if this doesn't make sense.
Has anyone thought of teaching.. high school, middle school ..
architects will be great for technology education.
it will be great to contribute to our society even if its for a little while.
summers off and time to study for ARE. It definetely pays the bill if you did not have a lavish lifestyle prior..
Can anyone give me any insight, opinion or just general knowledge on going to grad school for architecture? I did my undergrad in zoology and decided that this is something I want to do, however the more I look into the more Im getting worried if financially it even makes sense. This is something I have been passionate about, Im taking a pre architecture program in nyc this fall just to get a taste of it. Can I just get ideas on ...if it is a dying profession, will I be able to get a job in 3 years, and would I be better of going into civil engineering? Anything will help!! Thank you..
I got a job at Hallmark for minimum wage, part time. It will help but not nearly what I expected after graduation! My husband and I are both looking. Ugh! While I really do enjoy working at Hallmark, I would LOVE to get a job in architecture.
Is there any form of support the government gives to people that have recently graduated and can't find employment? My friends that have been laid off from their jobs get unemployment benefits. Do we have anything we can do?
Hey deeJ11 -
I've been practicing in architecture (mostly) for about 30 years now, 27 years or so as a licensed architect.
First of all, I wonder if you know any architects who might be willing to sit down with you and talk, or even better, let you "shadow" them in their workplace during a typical day?
The biggest (and for most archi grads, most deflating) discovery after graduating from school is how different from school the workplace is.
School is hard, but fun - you are the design god for your project in each design studio, and you don't have to consider budget, clients' preferences, codes of various sorts, etc.
On the other hand, work is hard, but often tedious. Don't expect to get building design responsibility right away, unless you are extraordinarily gifted, or know some wealthy folks who are willing to hire you right away to design there vacation get-away!
Architecture isn't dying, but architecture as many of us experienced it at the beginning of our careers has changed almost beyond recognition. Some of the changes are terrific (more women practicing, greater emphasis on clear communication, less Howard Roarke-style ego. But architects as "Project Leaders" are being challenged on many fronts, including Program Managers, hired client representatives, design/build firms, etc.
In answer to your questions about work availability, I entered architecture school in 1974 during the worst (up til then) recession since the Great Depression. I fully expected to work a little, get laid off, work a little more, and so on. Instead, I am grateful that until the beginning of this year, I worked steadily as an architect for almost a full career.
I wish you the best! The good news is that architects are some of the best people in the world! Funny, interesting, energetic, optimisitc. It can be a great work environment even if the new challenges are very daunting.
One more thing, there may be a "shake-out" among people practicing as architects (see contributions above), so the market may be ready for a new entry class full of dreams and energy!
Stylenrail-
I really appreciate your feedback. Its made me a lot more reassured about architecture. You seem very optimistic which is like a breath of fresh air at the moment. Once I get to nyc, I will find a firm that will let me shadow their architects and get a better feel about everything. Im hoping to find someone that will let me ask them anything, and let me see everything they do. I really want to learn as much as possible. Do you mind me asking what you did specifically? Are you in one of the coastal cities? Is it true that their are more jobs in coastal cities then anywhere else? Thank you so much again for your great post and your insight! I look forward to hearing back from you!
I'm afraid I can't say much about where the jobs are these days... if you read my notes closely, you'll notice that I've been unemployed since January, although I'm working on a few leads at the moment.
I live in the Midwest. I was fortunate to work in many kinds of places as I mentioned, from not-for-profit to government to larger more "traditional" type firms. I learned from every job! I was very lucky to be at one place for more than 15 years that was named one of the "best places to work" in the US multiple times, and I'd have to agree with that title. Some of it is luck and seizing opportunity when it appears, I suppose. Staying busy doing something seems to keep the game going as well until that great opportunity comes along.
If I have any more advice, it's this: if you know where you want to settle down, go to school as close to that location as possible. School reputations are a bit like ripples in a pond - they're biggest near the source and fade as you move farther away. Besides reputations of course, there's the whole issue of networking and contacts among local alumni.
I went to a great school for my M.Arch, but it is located nearly a thousand miles from where I ultimately wanted to live, so it took time to find positions and move closer to my "destination" over time.
If you go ahead with your plans to enter architecture, please don't cuss me later - as i mentioned earlier, there's a lot to be desired sometimes about the work. But overall, I guess I'm glad I did this...
Yep. I just graduated with my masters and can't find work to save my life. My old firm is hurting so they won't take me back. I even applied for a retail job, but didn't get it because I was overqualified.
Times are tough, but don't give up hope. It may not seem so now, but this job environment will actually make us stronger in the long run.
thanks for your guy's input..stylenrail best of luck and wishes in the future!
I feel ya kaizen--
Feeling angry and disillusioned...
I graduated first in my class from top ivy league masters program, have been applying to every job posting I can find that vaguely fits me and also have been sending resumes and portfolios to every firm i want to work for. I've exhausted my current contacts, and am exhausting quickly my finances and my wife's patience. So far I've only gotten one interview and no other responses.
As far as I know, only a few in my class have any sort of job at all. With the economy so bad, it seems like entry to the profession is a nest of gatekeepers and keymasters, and I can't get nor find a break in this game.
DR Zaius
Sorry to hear about your lack of finding work. Graduating top in your class from an ivy league school is an accomplishment in itself and I feel your pain. Recently being laid off and finding work has been hard. But I did what I had to do to pay the bills. Took a job that paid me hourly for what work they had and finally getting a job that even though I took at the time out of necessity I have actually gotten to love and was better than any job that I had for the past 4 years.
You almost write as if because your placed in the top of your ivy league school that you deserve employment over the rest us that might be in a similar situation.
Feeling angry and disillusioned...
GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!!
You are not special!!!!!!!!!!
Get your ivy league ass up and find something!!!!!!!!
What is a minimum wage job beneath you!!!!!!!
My point is do something - sounds like you aren't doing anything.
Why dont you start there and continue to look. Sorry I cant help you with the anger - just let go - you are changing anything but frustrating yourself. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. Do something in the mean time.
I myself and plenty of people I know are doing things to get some income coming in - work at the supermarket register, teaching at schools for extra lessons and so on. But if your IVY lEAGUE ASS is to good for that sorry - cant help you!
I worked for 14-18 months at $10 an hour before I even got my first job offer out of school during bad times. But money to take care off what I need was coming in.
diversify yourself.... learn a trade... get in a shop.... use a hammer...lay some tile...sweat some copper pipe..... shingle a roof...
tooo many narrow minded folks that want an office job.....
folks need to become self employed and learn to cross market and diversify themselves a bit...... sure you can be a specialist in some field but once that stream dries up, i hope you have plan b,c,d,e,and f
just saying
Sometimes it helps to go where the jobs are and ladies and gents, there's not many places that are a worker's market. Found this info to be interesting:
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/08/17/the-best-and-worst-cities-to-look-for-a-job/
I've noticed more postings for the DC area, I'm not interested in uprooting my family to chase work. I'm making my stand in TX and fighting to eek out an existence.
Yes, I'm pursuing other things that can make money (still searching, but still trying). At first I was acting like a wounded bear, oh poor me! Sympathy and hugs are all you get, and that doesn't pay the bills. I will take my chances doing something else, if it means I'm independent from others.
Ahhhh it's noble to take a min. wage jobber - way to take one for the team! But alas, YOU'RE OVERQUALIFIED!!!! No dice, my man or my lady.....
So don't get down, Buttercup! You're a PROFESSIONAL candidate for some opening, somewhere. Be creative, be resourceful, imagine "architects" don't exist - time to find something new to do...WHAT WOULD YOU DO????? Sales rep? Marketing? Educator?
If you can't find a full time job, take what you can and with time to spare, learn Revit, study for LEED, doing something to enrich your professional life...because Buttercup, this shit express is going to be losing steam some day. And when it does, you're going to want to be able to kick ass and take names. You're going to want your future boss to think "WTF!!! Why did anyone let this badass go?!?!"
THINK POSITIVE! NEVER GIVE UP! NOTHING IS FOREVER!
THIS ISN'T A SPRINT, A MORONIC DASH....IT'S A MARATHON!!!
Good luck, Buttercups!
nice.
I got a job for a few days this week, in retail, while a friend who owns a little clothing store is out of town and has asked me to cover. It pays almost $14 an hour, I just might like it!
good for you strawbeary! its really tough these days, some places don't even accept people with bachelor's degree because its too overqualified!
i've been working at a running shoe store part-time the last six months; a couple weeks ago i picked up a second job selling dog shampoo. it's pretty sad, but not nearly as sad as not having a job.
Sounds like the "survival" jobs are still in retail, even though that sector has plenty of their own problems.
Was at the customer service counter in a Target store the other day and overheard someone asking about employment. The person was told that maybe they'd be hiring in October for the upcoming holiday season. Ouch!
You need a gub'ment gig
didn't know if this had previously been posted anywhere...ice cream seems to be recession proof:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1915762,00.html
ice cream is down in michigan. try sellling hot dogs to drunk people at 2 am
i'm sitting on my ass in puerto rico, refusing to work here, while dropping 5-10 job apps a day for nyc firms....
it's been 2 months.
i got 2 survival jobs that pay $20/hr. im saving up for grad school in the fall, and am actually less stressed then when i worked at a firm.
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