There are plenty of examples of firms doing various combinations, or hybrid firms (try a search for them).

I left architecture for graphics/web, now getting back into more architecture from a developers side. I'd suggest looking very closely at the profession and what you would really be doing (design is a small fraction of the puzzle, unlike graphics/web/motion). Also look closely at what you'll be paid (it'll, most likely, be less).

You could work at an arch firm, prettying up their drawings, etc. Or you could find a more progressive graphic firm and work on hybrid stuff.

I would suggest the latter, you'll probably be paid more and have more creative freedom.

There is nothing I enjoy more than designing architecture, but that is just a small part of the profession.

What is an unlicensed architect?

Do you mean intern or designer?

If you just want to do design, interior or exterior, for an architecture firm, I don't know that you need a degree.

Hey trace I've read a lot of your posts and really respect what you've done in terms of starting your own office. I agree that design is such a small part of the puzzle in architecture firms. Obviously the other components are equally important if not more so in terms of maintaining a profitable firm with well put together work.


Do you have any career suggestions for people who want to spend say half of their time designing...preferably architecture. SHould they just give up and branch into tangential fields, find a firm with a separate design "department"? Or are there firms that somehow spend more time on design because they work with associate firms? If one started a new office could it somehow be structured so that you spent more time designing?

Kevek, I worked at a large firm with in house graphic designers, but I suspect they were not paid more than interns. Most big firms will have in house graphics people that work closely with the marketing department. A lot of architecture interns will help put together presentations in powerpoint or boards in INDesign, but the people that do this aren't usually well compensated. I also know of a signage consultant firm that works with other architecture firms. I think they don't have architecture degrees just a graphic design background. But the principals used to work for SOM doing signage/way finding stuff in house. It sounded like they weren't overly fond of working there though. Unfortuantely, presentation work--renderings etc- is often relegated to younger people who are compensated less unless they have their own rendering firms.

Maybe there are some architecture firms that also do graphics that you could work for, for example Gensler does branding. YOu wouldn't need an MArch to do something like that and I don't think it will get you paid more.....

This is great. These are the insights I was hoping for. It's easy to flip through the magazines and books and build up a notion of what architecture appears to be. In reality, I'm sure IT IS quite different. I didn't mention this before but I've been through the residential building process a number of times (mostly from the construction and building science side) I wouldn't claim to have any real understanding of how to go about researching, designing or managing a large commercial build project, but the small scale stuff...I know.

Let me re-phrase my question. I feel my architectural interests are quite humble; I have no interest in being famous, or designing shiny skyscrapers. Although I'm sure people would say "architecture is what you make it" I'm not interested in working for years and years before I can make that something look like what I had in mind (know what I mean) I'm interested in residential design, residential design/build, ecological construction (as in using "natural" materials), micro living solutions, resource independent homes/zero carbon homes, etc. If I could have practice of my own it would look something like
http://www.jerseydevildesignbuild.com//about2/bout2.html
or
http://www.arkintilt.com/

I've been told is there is no money in residential design. If that's true, and my interests revolve mostly around residential design, I guess I was thinking it would be nice if there were opportunities to make additional money in architecture, or to command a marketing type of position by using my graphic design background.

Once the economy turns around, you could make a living doing residential if you go the design development route. Haven't done it myself, but have heard of people doing as well as their counterparts in a firm. I don't know how much you make so I'm not sure what constitutes a pay cut or a poor salary in your book.

I doubt there are many (or any) well compensated graphic designers at arch offices. Most recent grads have enough knowledge to get around with basic presentations and most of the larger promotional stuff will go to a graphic firm.


The reason I started my company in the first place was to find a way to make a good living and then come back to architecture without having to work for someone else. That's where I am at now. It's been an up and down road and you never know where things will end up, but I have enjoyed the ride and feel things are smoothing out (as in I can take a day off!).

Advice: "You'll never make any money working for someone else" as we've all heard. That's very true and I think it is somewhat applicable to creative ventures - if you want to do something, like design half the time, the only way to do that is to make it happen yourself.

Business knowledge. You can learn as you go, just make sure that you do put the time in to learn. There are a billion things I wish I knew more about, but 'just doing it' can work too.

For development work, you need to have the numbers work out. This isn't rocket science by any means, but does take time. Look at the ULI books, they are pretty thorough, although geared towards large projects (the ones I have anyway).

Balance and Solutions. If you want to design much of the time, you need to figure out a way to still make a living. No one will pay you to design without a solid portfolio, which takes time to develop. Start on that now.


I'd suggest trying to find a partner that can complement your skills. This could be someone with business experience or someone that has the knowledge (and interest) to do the construction documents (although that's not necessary, you can find someone to do those for you). Having a partner helps minimize the risk and gives you someone to brainstorm with.
That is ideal, though, and you can't always find someone (I didn't for the graphic/3D biz, not at the beginning).

You can do anything you want, just don't forget that you will always need an income. Write up some ideas, brainstorm and see if you can find a way to do what you want. It'll take tons of work and long hours, so be prepared from the start.
But it'll be worth every second down the road. Don't be afraid to dream big and go after what you want, just be sure to think it through from a practical standpoint. You need money to live. More income means more choices down the road.

THanks trace. I posted this in the mba +march thread, but I have the opportunity to get an mba for free at a little known school and have been trying to figure out how much practical application there would be for someone interested in starting an office. SOunds like I should at least try out a few classes to see if it's worthwhile even though I'm more interested in the design than management end. I'm a business moron, so hopefully it will be worthwhile even if I find a partner. Unfortunately I don't think they offer real estate development classes.

By solid portfolio--I am assumming you mean something you would show potential clients or investors. Do you mean a solid portfolio of work done with other firms as an employee, unbuilt independent work, or independent built work? THat's where the catch 22 comes in, I would think it would be difficult to get those first few clients to trust you when you haven't built anything independently.

Yes, it is a catch 22 - you need to have the work to get clients, but need clients to have the work. I'd suggest talking with some firms and seeing if you can partner on projects.

Having really good renderings is the next best thing. If you are lucky enough to have $$, build design/build your own home (plenty of people start this way, but most don't have a few hundred in cash starting out).



For the business stuff, don't worry about the re part for now, just get as much practical knowledge you can. Since it is free, all the better, should be a no brainer! Classes are typically easier than reading dry books. You don't need to master everything, just understand concepts and how to tackle problems down the road. Most of business is all common sense, it just depends on how quickly you can gather and apply that sense.
You can always drop things if your business becomes more time consuming.


Hope this is helping a little. Oh, one last thing, I just discovered Meetup.com's networking/business/entrepreneur (and photography) meetups. Take a look, you might be able to find something interesting in your area, maybe even a partner or some more advice.

Get those business cards ready!! And yes, you need professional cards (I spent a ton on ours, but the response has been wonderful), a quality website, etc. Don't underestimate the power of a well designed identity.

Trace, very wise words.

Excuse my ignorance here, I don't have an undergrad in Architecture, are you and sponge saying that architects spend the majority of their time NOT designing (floorplans, elevations etc.) I understand that research is a big part of the job as is creating construction documents, and project management, but do those tasks outweigh the time you spend conceiving and designing a structure? I'm a little confused. I suppose I thought that Architects were responsible for the design and function of a structure, but that builders and engineers were responsible for figuring out how to actually build the structure.

1. How do bigger firms work. Do the partners/principals "design" (do all the creative work) and leave the construction documents research and technical renderings to the interns and unlicensed architects?

2. If one is not a licensed architect what is this persons day to day activities usually look like in a firm?

3. Trace are you saying that you left a firm to do 3d / rendering work? Was this more profitable than your time at a firm? I'm assuming you went to arch school (mArch) Did you get licensed? And now you are, I assume, working with other partners to realize developments and go after funding/investors to build them. Are you the designer in this collaboration?Are other partners in charge of the engineering and construction documents and project management?

4. Do you guys know of any (good) designers who don't have a formal architectural education?

i don't know how it goes for design ofices that don't do their own CDs and so on, but for me i would say we spend 50% of our time hunting for work and pursuing clients, pitching ideas and so on. my partner is a developer so we also spend a lot of time dealing with banks, with investors, with real estate brokers, and with investors.

right now it is incredibly tight and we are learning how to do business in ways that were not necessary before, which is a pain, and no guarntees we are going to stay ahead of the curve in this economy.

but back to the design stuff. we would never want to let CD's out of our hands because it is where most of the real important decisions are made. basic design can be quite short if we are inspired, but execution takes a very long time and for me at least absolutely gets down to the CD's, and even into the excel sheets when we go over budgets. it is the only way i know of to ensure quality. that work is ALL creative and all enjoyable, but very little of it is what i would call "concept design". i don't think that even exists frankly. design is iterative and goes from first examination of the site to the very end of the construction process.

As far as who does what, well i guess the job of the boss is to set the vision and to make sure it is maintained. who does what beyond that is not so important. or at least not to me. in terms of figuring out how a building is built, no we don't leave that to anyone either. we do the preliminary engineering concept and take it to an engineer (in my first office that was someone in the office), and then work our way through the project together. again it is iterative and there is never a point where we hand over a set of drawings and get a finished design back from a consultant. it is continuous back and forth process. even for mechanical equipment it is not likely that drawings will be set in one go.

the non-engineering part of construction we do on our own. we figure out the construction part of things. i don't see how you could do otherwise without giving up all of the things that make a design your own.

finally, do i know any designers who didn't have formal training? only tado ando, but he is exceptional. after that, no. not a soul. education makes an enormous difference.

Graphic design does not equal architecture.

Trace, what's funny is that one of my other free education options is a second BA in animation. I think though I am just going to audit those classes so I can make the assignments architectural.

So rendering my own stuff will be more helpful than showing built work done with previous employers right? Should I do competitions, or try to render the sort of work I can reasonably go after starting out (small retail, homes, etc). I can do decent renderings, but I could definitely take them to another level. I can either focus on Maya with the animation kids or 3DS max with the video game kids. I used max at work and Maya back in grad school, but I've lost the skill set because it's been so long.

THe following will sound like a broken record for all you seasoned vets out there, but for Kevek's benefit.... Back when I was in grad school they had us read an article about how common depression is among interns because they realize how little of their jobs they actually spend designing. Jump is right in that design goes down to the last detail, but the type of conceptual design that people often get a rush doing in school is a small slice of the pie.

Putting together a building requires that it go through schematic design, design development, then construction documentation--with the cd phase taking the bulk of the time. It takes far longer and far more people to put together a rigorous set of working drawings to accurately convey a concept to a contractor than it does to come up with the concept. In US firms the engineering is usually subcontracted out unless it's very straight forward, but this still does not alter the above. Personally I think schematic design is short changed in a lot of offices because of monetary reasons. But Jump is right, in that you can have a great concept, sub it out for cds, and then have it fall apart because it's all those little things that can make a bldg sing.

I can't think of any excellent contemporary architects other than ando not educated as architects (or maybe engineers), but there are plenty of historical examples where people started out as artists and transferred over or dabbled in architecture. However, the increased complexity of construction technology and registration/legal issues have made it increasingly difficult for anyone to dabble. One could argue that school does not elaborate on the construction technology aspects anyway so you could just work for someone for many years to learn this, as you still can in a few states in lieu of a BArch/MArch. But IMHO you will never learn how to design working for someone else. Partially because of what I layed out in the previous paragraph and partially becuase firms expect you to know this already. One can enhance ones understanding of how to create good design if they are lucky enough to work for a quality firm, but there are limits. This is why school is important despite its short comings.

Evilplatypus will teach you how to design for pennies on the dollar of the cost of an MArch :)


Kevek regarding your numbers 1 and 2 above:

1) that is often how it works in large firms but it varies from firm to firm and depending on the intern's assertiveness and to a lesser extent their design and technical competence. Hence the cad monkey phenomenon. Some people argue its less to do with licensure more to do with experience level and capability. Even once you become a principal in a large firm your primary job may not be design related...you might be a senior technical architect or management focused and damn happy about that.


2) Again this varies on the firm, but rendering, presentation drawings, and lots of learning to do construction documents. THe extent to which you may participate in the process of determining exactly what you're rendering and drawing depends on the firm and you. I mean some places hold open charettes where everybody gets to participate. Your design might not be implemented but you get a crack at it. Other places have a few designated people not only do all the concepts but dictate every last dimension. Young staffers might even be discouraged from spending small amounts of time brain storming about design adjustments to what they're drawing because they are sucking up valuable billable hours dreaming up unwise, impractical suggestions due to their inexperience and technical incompetence.

Kevek -

1. Yes, that has been my (limited) experience. However, when I started working after grad school I was a rare breed of 3D skilled 'kids'. This actually gave me more freedom to design than those far above me because I could move fast, change designs, render images for clients and keep moving. The CDs would then be handed off to another dept.

So my forte has always been #1 design and #2 3D. Those make for a great combination and there are still not many that can do both well.

2. See #1.

3. Mostly yes. It is a collaboration from start to finish.

And yes, I knew I would never be happy working at an arch office half way through grad school. The % of time spent designing and the $$ just weren't there for me. I like doing things my way ;-)


Education. Honestly, I think this is crucial. My undergrad education really shaped my life, from a design standpoint. It gave me a foundation for all things creative, from the graphic design we do to the web to architecture. I could not have done any of it without such a wonderful undergrad (that's UofFl). Grad school at UCLA was great, but totally different. Both were in architecture (7 total f'in' years!).



to jump's point - I agree with everything he's saying, but I also believe you can prioritize. For a web example - I learned some actionscript (Flash programming) so I could design and program websites, but eventually there was just not enough time to do everything. You cannot do everything well! Jack of all trades, Master of none, as the saying goes.

That's my business approach - I focus on what I am good at and that's design. I'll be involved with every decision and dictate how things are done, but it is a team effort I just guide the ship to get the results I want.

You'll always need to know how the pieces are working together to be able to get the end results, though, so you need to continue to learn, discuss, explore. Collaboration, imho, is how things get done efficiently and to the highest quality level, while still being able to grow business.


sponge - I'd show your previous built work, just give credit where credit is due.

Well yes. I recieved a B.S. degree in Graphic Design from San Jose State - then pursued a long career in 3D realtime graphics as an enviromental designer, First in the flight simulation field, then in the Video Game industry. At the young age of 40, I studied for my M.Arch at NewSchool of Architecture and Design in San Diego. After I graduated in 07' I moved to San Francisco to work at a big architecture office performing production with BIM(building Information Modeling)Revit. - A lot of what I learned in graphic design(grid system modulars, are what I use in architecture.

My advice? Goethe for it - don't let the recession stop you -

One last question guys. Ok maybe two. By the way this has been extremely helpful, thank you.

1. Do you think one can make a decent salary (above 50k in a semi metropolitian area like Atlanta or Miami...not New York) working as a solo residential designer/architect.

2. Do you think this would require a license or would a masters be enough? And/Or if you had to take a stab...how long would you say it takes to esatblish oneself as a residential architect (directly after graduating)

Just trying to determine how much time I'm looking at here and how practical my expectations and hopes are. By the way, is it pretty common for graduate school school projects to be large scale build projects?

If you don't have a license, you will have to pass on the work to a licensed architect to get it built--and this will severely cut into your profit. I don't think there's any money in that. It seems like you just want to do the "fun parts" of architecture without paying your dues in the profession, and that's just not possible. Sorry.

You're looking at a 3-1/2 year grad school program, and then you will actually be qualified to do very little. You will need experience. And to get licensed, you will need to work for AT LEAT three more years (probably more to get all of the categories of experience needed in IDP), and will then have to pass all sections of the ARE. I saw a statistic recently that the AVERAGE amount of time between graduation and licensure is seven years. It can be done in less than four if you really have your act together, however. It took me four and a half years to finish IDP, however.

if you think you are going to hang up a shingle and make a decent salary(which i don't think 50 grand is btw...) designing custom residences, think again. these jobs come from referrals by clients that you have already satisfied. maybe if you work for a residential architect for a decade and have a track record. or you have your cash(which i'm assuming you don't) so you can build your own spec house etc. you may have a shot. These markets are full of very good (as well as very shitty) architects who have been building their practices for years. Unless you're loaded, get ready to pay your dues.
(vado channeled through liberty bell, a sort of pleasant linda blair moment...)

You don't need to be licensed to get or design homes. The problem is that any prospective client will want to see built work and the only way to do that is to work for someone else.

If you want to do it fast, and are set on architecture, I'd find a residential architect (small firm the specializes in sfr) and get as much experience as you can with them.

As for the licensing, you don't need that but it would certainly help on your own. You can always have someone else either stamp your drawings, or, if you don't want to do them, have another firm put those together.

The other alternative is to talk with prefab companies. They'll put their own drawings together, so you don't really need to worry about the construction drawings (but it helps to be aware of their process).


The challenge with sfr is getting the clients. It is not your average joe that can afford a multimillion dollar custom home. You need to have the network, connections, etc., to land those jobs.

It is possible to do things outside of the typical career path, just be aware of the limitations and challenges. It would not be an easy route to take, not everyone lucks into very wealthy clients that let you design whatever you want.

Inevitably, there are no real shortcuts to success (unless you are wealthy to start). But if you focus on a long term business plan, you'll be waaaay ahead of everyone else.