Gin - you seriously need to get a life. You've become obsessed with a vision of the American Political Spectrum that is so 2003. Didnt you hear - Bush is cool again.
Construction workers in UAE endure slavelike conditions. Expatriate Europeans and Americans filling white-collar positions as architects, planners, construction managers, and project managers for those real estate development projects are expected to work 100+ work-hour weeks and conform to tightly regulated living conditions.
Gin - seriously... the vast majority of the people in this country are rather moderate in their political views. They may swing a little to the left or a little to the right, but they're moderate. I think you've been drinking too much of the far Lefts kool-aid.
But I digress...
Is it unethical for architects and engineers to design buildings to be built by slaves?
Synergy - this same question was running through my head the entire time I was reading the article as my firm has been working on a project in Abu Dhabi for the past few months and I HAVE been working on it. Though I am quite aware they are separate entities I couldn't help but feel a little ill at ease with the thought I've been supporting (for lack of a better word) slave labor.
****melt, as I clarified in my second post above, my comments are directed toward the current crop of GOP leadership and their mouthpieces at Fox News, not the vast majority of rank-and-file Republican voters.
My parents and most of my extended family are lifelong Republicans... My dad helped Jim Bunning and Mitch McConnell run for their first terms in the Senate, and he still has a handwritten thank-you letter from then-President Gerald Ford hanging on the living room wall. Many in my family bit the bullet and voted for Obama because they're fed up with the direction the GOP leadershio has taken the party, but even the ones who voted for McCain are generally moderate in their beliefs and they wouldn't be caught dead listening to Limbaugh, et al. They're decent people, and they'd certainly be as horrified by the situation in Dubai as any other non-sociopathic person.
I'm sorry I didn't make this more clear in my initial comment... I should have read the entire article before responding to this thread, and I should have worded my response differently and not used such a broad brush. My apologies.
Gin, civil liberties were never trampled in Dubai because they were never there to begin with. The environment is being gutted EVERYWHERE, but at least Dubai's little brother Abu Dhabi is making a carbon-neutral city to do something about it. And yeah the Bushes sucked up to the sheiks, because of oil. So do a lot of people. I mean, I enjoy making meaningless analogies as much as the next person but comparing our lives to a country where women have to go to separate beaches than men and where you get thrown in JAIL if you can't pay your debt just does not make sense to me. I think YOU give the GOP too much credit.
I fail to see how any American political ideals/parties apply to the situation in Dubai.
There were many Westerners, NZer's included, quite happy to go and live and work in that hole of a place at the expense of thousands of phillipinos, indians and bangledeshis selling themselves for peanuts.
I fail to see how anyone with a conscience could work there. I found it hard enough going to Fiji and seeing the difference between the prices paid for goods and services and the wages to employees - but they are'nt effectively slaves.
I know of a friend of my family who took his wife and two children up there, lured by big money. He lasted 2 months. Greedy f*cker. Didnt want to live in the western compounds to save even more money, so they rented an apartment in the arab parts of 'old' dubai.
Had a stand-off with the landlord, because he decided to move out because the neighbourhood was dangerous. The landlord brought in some heavies and they had to leave secretly at midnight, losing 2 months of rent and all of their possessions. Dumped the car at the airport and scarpered.
All because of greed.
Plus all of the architecture is SHIT. I never want to set foot in the place.
"The Middle East will be far more dangerous if Dubai fails. Our export isn't oil, it's hope."
Well, just nuke the whole of the f*ing Middle East then!
Abu Dhabi isn't much better, by the way. They too have the same kinds of labor camps and similar ideals.
They market themselves as being a bit more liberal, but in the end, they are all siblings of the same rogue family (quite literally). Having no culture and a lot of money will do that to you.
"I mean, I enjoy making meaningless analogies as much as the next person but comparing our lives to a country where women have to go to separate beaches than men and where you get thrown in JAIL if you can't pay your debt just does not make sense to me."
I fail to see how any American political ideals/parties apply to the situation in Dubai.
I'm not saying American ideals/parties apply to the situation in Dubai. The point I'm trying to make, however badly worded, is that the situation in Dubai should be a cautionary tale to American ideals/parties. Is that really such a controversial notion?
Only anecdotal evidence-- most of the people I come across have no idea who she is unless they are black and or lesbian.
However, almost all of my foreign friends have read some of her works (a bulk of them being french, italian, russian, kazak, chinese, japanese and israeli).
LIG - agreed - this situation is a cautionary tale to many western countries. I wonder how Rem and Foster et al are jutifying their involvement in Dubai now...
I have no idea who Toni Morrison is, but I bet I know a whole lot more about the US, then anyone here knows about NZ...;)
I approach a blonde 17-year-old Dutch girl wandering around in hotpants, oblivious to the swarms of men gaping at her. "I love it here!" she says. "The heat, the malls, the beach!" Does it ever bother you that it's a slave society? She puts her head down, just as Sohinal did. "I try not to see," she says. Even at 17, she has learned not to look, and not to ask; that, she senses, is a transgression too far.
@ sameolddoctor: no culture in Dubai.... please pay a bit more attention in school. Arabia was peaking as a civilisation when Europe was bashing its head in with clubs! For example where do you think numeracy / algebra comes from?
And at all the others: please come visite the UAE before you form your opinion... Alright?
Mac, if i'm not mistaken most of the advances in science, math and philosophy during that time period were happening north of Saudi in the Calliphate which again if i'm not mistaken had its capital in Baghdad. I think Saudi has always been the land of nomads and herders because of the severe lack of fresh water sources.
Mac, most of the things that Arabs pride themselves on come from the Levant and or are Levantine in nature.
Just as we borrowed math from Arabia, you borrowed culture from elsewhere. Oh and don't give me any ethnocentric bullshit about how Arabic is the center of all languages. It wasn't even a true language until it made the shift from proto-arabic in the 14th century. I am tired of hearing this from so many arab-centric assholes.
Furthermore, most of the advances you claim to have made are advances stolen from greco-roman libraries that didn't get burned down in Europe's implosion between the 4th and 7th centuries. So, while I am thanking you for preserving the knowledge and culture of Europe... claiming full ownership for them and touting them as your own culture kind is the kind of ethnocentrism that I absolutely despise. That and the iconoclasm that destroyed every last remaining piece of art from antiquity right after the spread of islam doesn't help that conversation either.
You're slightly worse than the US in a lot of regards involving extremism, current slavery, a widening wealth gap, a low human development index (for a wealthy country), denial of capital goods and institutionalized segregation. I'm not saying the US (in terms of cultural relativism, the United States is nothing but one giant glass ceiling) is any better but I wouldn't be throwing stones.
I love how so many people claim to be experts on Arabs and the Arab world... I think this is the only culture and region where you could have just a cursory potted history of the region and get confused as an "expert."
Oh right and the Arabs totally "stole" math from the Europeans! Many today they all blow things up, yesterday they went around steeling math -- is there no end to their evil?
Silly buffoon statements like this are a testament to just how low our expectations are willing to fall when there is any kind of western discourse of the Middle East.
Also, if you knew the history of greek mathematics... you would know that the greeks discovered irrational numbers, zero, formal proof and number theory about a 800-1000 years before the first algebraic equation came about.
*swish* Although the greeks used no formal algebra, they invented everything necessary for it to exist. Needless to say, that Babylonians did all of this a few centuries before the Greeks.
In either event, I don't think a relatively modern culture can claim ownership of a previous (millennia old) achievement that's completely unrelated to the culture claiming it. That was my point.
the arabs certainly invented the practice of jelq-ing NSFW!
By the way, Ive been to Dubai and there is no doubt the Emiratis and Europeans (mostly Brits, Germans and French) treat all the others like second class citizens. The sad part is that my generalization is based on the people I met there, who were mostly highly educated. It is scary to think of what the uneducated and nouveau-rich locals would be like.
My current studio project is in Dubai, I feel weird about it now. We were excited to contribute to the extravagance of it, but now I feel like I should do something different. Very interesting article and an unfortunate glimmer of our world.
When it comes to the Middle East, Americans are always on the wrong side of the fence. We protect absolute monarchies like Saudi Arabia, and Apartheid States like Israel. The alternative was never great but they should have paid closer attention at the *ACTUAL* moderate peoples of Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt.
Every time the US seems to interfere with the Middle East they fuck everything up!
my fear is that as designers we enable the labor abuses - after all, many of those workers are engaged to work on the very buildings we design. I've never personally worked on a Dubai project, but we all know many who do. I'm wondering if we need to consider taking a stand, like British architects did with refusing to design prisons a few years ago, and say that we won't work on projects (especially on downstream work, CD/CA) unless the owners guarantee to observer minimal health, welfare and safety standards in the project's construction.
Something about horses and barn doors comes to mind... Sounds like the construction activity there has pretty much come to a grinding halt, so any action by architects at this point would be a joke.
Besides, how do you organize something like that when we can't even organize for our own economic self-interest? Tell a bunch of architects to form a firing squad, and they'd stand in a circle.
for all the city's absolute faults, only a number of you seem to be able to look at things objectively,,
a few points,,
there was a point about religion early on in the thread, >"The reason for this is because certain people of certain religions look down on anyone else of any other religion"<... this doesnt stand, because, alot of the workers are Muslim, yes, just as there are non-Muslims, alot of them are Muslims, and that doesn stop at construction workers, it extends into all fields of hard labor,, just as there are alot of both, Muslims and non-Muslims in white collar jobs,, and, almost all of you seem to be aware that the guys doing most of the planning and design work (and the banking and the servicing and and and...) are Westerners, and those are the guys that are regarded in high esteem by the Local developers, so, pray tell me, how does that work? Since they highly esteemed and the guys with Capital do not share a religion... Its not a religion issue, there is a cultural fault occuring (and one could argue culture is influenced, if not dictated by, religion, but not in this case),, and in my opinion the fault is blindly assuming that the Westerners have the right answers, when, like someone mentioned above, most of the people coming here would not do well anywhere else in the world, but that doesnt mean there arent talented conscientious people... you cant generalize,,,
Second, how on earth is this not a political issue? not to sound paranoid, EVERYTHING IS A POLITICAL ISSUE,, the versailles was a political issue, the Pope Sixtus V built the Acqua Felice and the Moses Fountain for political reasons, the piazza del popolo was a political issue, so, pray tell me, Dubai is not submerged in political issues? The obvious points have been raised earlier, i think mainly by LiG, and others, and it is that the U.S, and its former president(s) and other Western Investors have made so much money on the backs of the Arabian Gulf and their leaders,,, why do you think the Dubai Stock Exchange collapsed momentarily when 9/11 happened? because all western investors pulled out, and why do you think it was reborn over night? because Saudi investors who pulled out of the U.S markets invested in Dubai,, Moreover, some of you are viewing this like a soap opera,, there is the rich, there is the poor.. the Locals and Westerners, and the Sub-continent workers,,, but, if any of you really understands how the country as a whole emerged during the 1970s (Kuwait earlier, in the 50s), you will realize it was political, and you will also realize that there is a missing link, the Middle-Easterners whose countries (mainly Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Palestine amongst others ofcourse) where in political, economic and social turmoil, so they saw hope there for their families to lead a decent life,, because Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait, Doha, Muscat where safe places, and where the children could get a fair education, play in the street, meet similar minded people, albeit from different countries, and where do you think those children are now? most of them went to western universities, trust me, and are confused at what happened to the place they grew up in, and they cannot make a solidly objective judgment,,, some of the middle eaterners have seized their opportunities when the boom happened, but others where happy to be where they already where, because, no matter what, they have come to realize that they will eventually go back to their countries after their work is done (mainly, old age, and a secure future life to their children) because the Gulf countries do not award citizenship to people who lived there (except for some occasions, and mainly to Palestinians, and thats ALSO POLITICAL)
Rockandhill, i usually admire your comments, but this time you're a bit hard headed, you're almost discounting all the work the Arabs and the Muslims have done from the 6th to the 15th century,, when one says Arab in that time, it is referred to the edges the India all the way to the edges of Granada, and the people of those areas, be they known now as uzbeks, tajiks, indians, iranian, egyptians and others they were proud to be of one Muslim culture, based on the Arabic language, and, for your info, those from the Levant have long since abandoned their archaic roots and have already become arab,, if you are familiar with Gibran Khalil Gibran, you will realize that he says "My Syrian Brothers" (he lived in contemporary lebanon, but it was known as Greater Syria, and the U.S) And "My Arab Brothers" interchangeably,,, and the Renaissance mainly happened because of the POLITCAL turmoil and the Ottoman's rise to power during that time..
Also, did anyone forget the long lived slavery that was only recently (historically) abolished in the U.S? if that wasnt true, all the hype about Obama being of african origins wouldnt have happened (I think its irrelevent, but, the hype did happen),, im only asking that one not adopt a self-entitled attitude and start bashing everyone else, just look at things objectively, and try to equate, for example say "in the U.S things happened like that, how do you think we can build on that model to fix the problems of the Arabian Gulf".. etc...
it is important to note that I agree with the ethical issue raised, i am absolutely in accordance, and i know that there are problems, hideous problems,,, i am not defending whats happening, trust me,, call for objectivity,, AND DONT FUCKING SAY "KILL ALL THE MIDDLE EAST"
"The reason for this is because certain people of certain religions look down on anyone else of any other religion"- Fays, I think the poster mentioning that was ill-informed.
It is actually people of different CLASSES treating the other classes like slaves.
I beg to differ about the people from other worse, regressive parts of the middle east moving to Dubai - yes a few of them moved to give their families better lives, but a lot of them moved FOR PURE GREED - Dubai offered them the perfect haven to invest their money in the day, screw Russian hookers at night, while the wife and kids hang out in the mall, and having a few slaves wash your feet, all at the same time. The emirates are based on nothing but a culture of hedonism, racism and escapism. Fays, as much as you can defend these guys, there is really no excuse for treating anyone the way laborers are treated in the UAE.
Speaking of the US, Slavery has been abolished since 1865. Taking that analogy to the UAE, is it safe to assume that they are still in the 19th century? (actually according to the arabic calendar, they are still in the 14th century)
Fays.panda... it was definitely me playing devil's advocate.
Thanks for the compliment. I know it was hard headed but I have quite a few muslim (slash Arab) friends I butt heads with all the time. A lot of the things they identify with as being Arab (most of them southern and central Saudi Arabian) think that Arabs basically invented the entire world. Which they really didn't (that's why I brought up the Levant).
Either way, I kind of dislike people in general using thousand year old facts to support anything. People in the US will gladly accept ancient european history as cold hard fact but when in comes to the history of the antebellum... everything is completely false [even though much of the problems of the 19th century are completely still valid?].
I think the "Arab area" is interesting because it is the nexus of "learned" humanity. But... I'm not going to excuse crimes against humanity because of historical claims of greatness (that can be explained in other cultures.)
More so, Pan-Arabianism is a relatively new concept because 150 years ago... Arabs of the same culture wanted nothing to do with each other. It wasn't until very recently that they have united as one. It's basically like Europe or East Asia that although they are all related... they haven't focused much time on unity.
It would be like me saying the US is awesome because we landed on the moon despite the fact that we have widespread wage slavery, unrealistic living situations, a massive poverty level, an even more massive homelessness problem, a major issue with credit and financing and disproportionate [almost criminal due to the extortive nature of securing energy futures] energy consumption.
Sameolddoctor,, yes, there is absolutely no excuse to the way the laborers are treated, no one with a shred of humanity can argue with that, but, you are way off on the other point... not all middle eastern men wanted to screw russian whores (which have long left and been substituted with cheaper ones from the former soviet union countries and east asia), and not all those families afforded "many slaves" if even one, you are forgetting that most of these were Muslim and a smaller number where Christian, both religions that do not approve of adultry (and slavery) yes, im sure a generous number did screw around with whores, but a bigger number did not, most of them where well learned individuals,, you cannot forget that the levant and egypt where a cultural hub in the middle part of the century, well into the 70s, meaning many of those young men moving into the Gulf at that time where well educated, and had dreams of a good honest life (i do not see whats wrong with making money,, just as an addendum!) and, i think it is too harsh to say "worse, regressive parts of the middle east",, problems can happen in any country, and it takes time, and some middle eastern countries have moved past that,, lebanon seems to be hanging on both ends, its culturally rich, but the internal conflict is extremely handicapping.
yes, greed was there, and is still, and this is everywhere, but, do not generalize, your arguement is bound to fall when you generalize..
and, its not the arabic calendar, its the Muslim calendar, and it had started at an important point in Islamic history,, that was snarky on your side,, both calendars are valid now, because you and i both know the gregorian calendar emerged after a struggle..
rockandhill, i agree with you, Pan-Arabianism is a fairly new notion, and it has primarily emerged due to political issues (occupied palestine, occupied parts of syria and lebanon, previously occupied parts of egypt),, arabs are too busy to fight amongst themselves at the moment (though they do this abundantly till now) so they are comfortable waving around the banner of pan-arabianism,, its all political,, yet, one cannot argue that culturally (and thats due to religion, and the interaction of Islam and Christianity and language) they do share alot, but i agree, i struggle with clearly understanding the underlyinh goals of pan-arabianism myself..
America did not voluntarily bring slavery to her shores. The Colonial powers discovered it in Africa where tribes sold each other into slavery where this was common practice on the continent, among the Africans themselves. The colonial merchants brought it to the caribean then to the south for massive aritocratic plantations. The north of the American country had been morally and economically opposed to slavery since inception. To say America is country that supported slavery is bullshit. America is the first country to outright ban it and kill almost a million of it's own citizens in order to stop it. So get off the America bashing people - Bush is gone.
They were as a result of the War of 1812-- they banned slavery to set an example that they were not brutish savages.
And EP, America did voluntarily bring slavery to its shores. The first common form of slavery was indentured servitude to pay for the Trans-Atlantic relocation. So, even before widespread chattel slavery, plantations and the like... the foundation of America was built on contractual enslavement.
As for Africa, it was specifically the remnants Kingdom of Ghana, the Kingdom of Ife and the Kingdom of Ashanti (Asante). They have predominately hierarchal societies and a shared pantheon religious basis in "Orisha." Part of this religious and cultural tradition requires an extensive amount of materials (mostly gold but including dyes, beads, textiles) and this is where predominately the African slave trade started. Because of the way the respective monarchies and status quo function, there is a major overlay between these African kingdoms and European Fiefdom. So, it's not that their entirely "tribes" and Africa has a few centuries of interaction with Europeans before slavery ignited in the region. America needed a lot of people, the Ashantis wanted a lot of gold and had a lot of people.
But even then, slavery in these kingdoms was relatively uncommon and relatively short-lived contractually if there was any prevalence... it certainly wasn't chattel slavery.
Hell, the Legend of Sleepy Hollow wasn't even a novel about a headless horseman (at least that wasn't necessarily the point). It was a novel about the basis of the American dream (a low ball tries to woo over old money {von tassel [count corn tassel]} so he can move to the south and start a plantation where he's allowed to use any means [chattel slavery was taboo in the pennsylvania dutch area] necessary to make money {presumably to become a free man, have his own method of transportation and have a single-family home outside of the city}).
last time i checked my history books the native americans had slavery. the aztecs had slavery. the incas had slavery. the spanish had slavery. the tainos probably had slavery. slavery was legal in ghana until five years ago. in fact every civilization in history depended upon slavery.
Ok I see now. Then GODMAN AMERICA. FUCK AMERICA. You white fucking devils should Die and have your posessions taken and redistributed. Does this mean I can get a PHD?
The Dark Side Of Dubai
Gin - you seriously need to get a life. You've become obsessed with a vision of the American Political Spectrum that is so 2003. Didnt you hear - Bush is cool again.
Why hasn't anyone pointed out that CitiBank:
36,0 % - United States Government
11,1 % - Government of Singapore Investment Corporation (GIC)
6,0 % - Kuwait Investment Authority
4,9 % - Abu Dhabi Investment Authority (ADIA)
4,3 % - Kingdom Holding Company /Saudi Arabia
LOL, the last four are heavily related if not blood-related!
Construction workers in UAE endure slavelike conditions. Expatriate Europeans and Americans filling white-collar positions as architects, planners, construction managers, and project managers for those real estate development projects are expected to work 100+ work-hour weeks and conform to tightly regulated living conditions.
Gin - seriously... the vast majority of the people in this country are rather moderate in their political views. They may swing a little to the left or a little to the right, but they're moderate. I think you've been drinking too much of the far Lefts kool-aid.
But I digress...
Is it unethical for architects and engineers to design buildings to be built by slaves?
Synergy - this same question was running through my head the entire time I was reading the article as my firm has been working on a project in Abu Dhabi for the past few months and I HAVE been working on it. Though I am quite aware they are separate entities I couldn't help but feel a little ill at ease with the thought I've been supporting (for lack of a better word) slave labor.
****melt, as I clarified in my second post above, my comments are directed toward the current crop of GOP leadership and their mouthpieces at Fox News, not the vast majority of rank-and-file Republican voters.
My parents and most of my extended family are lifelong Republicans... My dad helped Jim Bunning and Mitch McConnell run for their first terms in the Senate, and he still has a handwritten thank-you letter from then-President Gerald Ford hanging on the living room wall. Many in my family bit the bullet and voted for Obama because they're fed up with the direction the GOP leadershio has taken the party, but even the ones who voted for McCain are generally moderate in their beliefs and they wouldn't be caught dead listening to Limbaugh, et al. They're decent people, and they'd certainly be as horrified by the situation in Dubai as any other non-sociopathic person.
I'm sorry I didn't make this more clear in my initial comment... I should have read the entire article before responding to this thread, and I should have worded my response differently and not used such a broad brush. My apologies.
Gin, civil liberties were never trampled in Dubai because they were never there to begin with. The environment is being gutted EVERYWHERE, but at least Dubai's little brother Abu Dhabi is making a carbon-neutral city to do something about it. And yeah the Bushes sucked up to the sheiks, because of oil. So do a lot of people. I mean, I enjoy making meaningless analogies as much as the next person but comparing our lives to a country where women have to go to separate beaches than men and where you get thrown in JAIL if you can't pay your debt just does not make sense to me. I think YOU give the GOP too much credit.
I fail to see how any American political ideals/parties apply to the situation in Dubai.
There were many Westerners, NZer's included, quite happy to go and live and work in that hole of a place at the expense of thousands of phillipinos, indians and bangledeshis selling themselves for peanuts.
I fail to see how anyone with a conscience could work there. I found it hard enough going to Fiji and seeing the difference between the prices paid for goods and services and the wages to employees - but they are'nt effectively slaves.
I know of a friend of my family who took his wife and two children up there, lured by big money. He lasted 2 months. Greedy f*cker. Didnt want to live in the western compounds to save even more money, so they rented an apartment in the arab parts of 'old' dubai.
Had a stand-off with the landlord, because he decided to move out because the neighbourhood was dangerous. The landlord brought in some heavies and they had to leave secretly at midnight, losing 2 months of rent and all of their possessions. Dumped the car at the airport and scarpered.
All because of greed.
Plus all of the architecture is SHIT. I never want to set foot in the place.
"The Middle East will be far more dangerous if Dubai fails. Our export isn't oil, it's hope."
Well, just nuke the whole of the f*ing Middle East then!
Abu Dhabi isn't much better, by the way. They too have the same kinds of labor camps and similar ideals.
They market themselves as being a bit more liberal, but in the end, they are all siblings of the same rogue family (quite literally). Having no culture and a lot of money will do that to you.
"I mean, I enjoy making meaningless analogies as much as the next person but comparing our lives to a country where women have to go to separate beaches than men and where you get thrown in JAIL if you can't pay your debt just does not make sense to me."
This was very well said, WonderK.
"How much for the little girl, the women? Sell me your children."
link
diabases - EXACTLY!!!!
OA - Funny what a difference a year makes.
I'm not saying American ideals/parties apply to the situation in Dubai. The point I'm trying to make, however badly worded, is that the situation in Dubai should be a cautionary tale to American ideals/parties. Is that really such a controversial notion?
Aside from that, I agree 100% with diabase.
Gin, people get touchy when you bring up slavery and its moral implications.
It's kind of odd when more people outside of the country have read a Toni Morrison book about American social politics than Americans have.
you got proof of that Toni Morrison stat anyplace rockhill? I would think that's an interesting statistic.
Only anecdotal evidence-- most of the people I come across have no idea who she is unless they are black and or lesbian.
However, almost all of my foreign friends have read some of her works (a bulk of them being french, italian, russian, kazak, chinese, japanese and israeli).
LIG - agreed - this situation is a cautionary tale to many western countries. I wonder how Rem and Foster et al are jutifying their involvement in Dubai now...
I have no idea who Toni Morrison is, but I bet I know a whole lot more about the US, then anyone here knows about NZ...;)
straight up. why do americans seem to think that everything is about america?
Good question agfa, I think the situation in Dubai related directly mostly to the British. God knows Ive met quite a few washed-up Britons there.
BBC investigation programme 'Panorama' aired on 6th April.
link
As for some of your comments evilplatypus - I just ain't feeling the love this morning...
"Capitalism has done a lot more for humanity than any other economic system."
"Didnt you hear - Bush is cool again."
April 7th : http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html
@ sameolddoctor: no culture in Dubai.... please pay a bit more attention in school. Arabia was peaking as a civilisation when Europe was bashing its head in with clubs! For example where do you think numeracy / algebra comes from?
And at all the others: please come visite the UAE before you form your opinion... Alright?
From last year's thread.
Integrated separation. Sorta like jumbo shrimp.
Mac, if i'm not mistaken most of the advances in science, math and philosophy during that time period were happening north of Saudi in the Calliphate which again if i'm not mistaken had its capital in Baghdad. I think Saudi has always been the land of nomads and herders because of the severe lack of fresh water sources.
Mac, you work in the UAE?
Mac, most of the things that Arabs pride themselves on come from the Levant and or are Levantine in nature.
Just as we borrowed math from Arabia, you borrowed culture from elsewhere. Oh and don't give me any ethnocentric bullshit about how Arabic is the center of all languages. It wasn't even a true language until it made the shift from proto-arabic in the 14th century. I am tired of hearing this from so many arab-centric assholes.
Furthermore, most of the advances you claim to have made are advances stolen from greco-roman libraries that didn't get burned down in Europe's implosion between the 4th and 7th centuries. So, while I am thanking you for preserving the knowledge and culture of Europe... claiming full ownership for them and touting them as your own culture kind is the kind of ethnocentrism that I absolutely despise. That and the iconoclasm that destroyed every last remaining piece of art from antiquity right after the spread of islam doesn't help that conversation either.
You're slightly worse than the US in a lot of regards involving extremism, current slavery, a widening wealth gap, a low human development index (for a wealthy country), denial of capital goods and institutionalized segregation. I'm not saying the US (in terms of cultural relativism, the United States is nothing but one giant glass ceiling) is any better but I wouldn't be throwing stones.
I love how so many people claim to be experts on Arabs and the Arab world... I think this is the only culture and region where you could have just a cursory potted history of the region and get confused as an "expert."
Oh right and the Arabs totally "stole" math from the Europeans! Many today they all blow things up, yesterday they went around steeling math -- is there no end to their evil?
Silly buffoon statements like this are a testament to just how low our expectations are willing to fall when there is any kind of western discourse of the Middle East.
cursory potted history is redundant.
Also, if you knew the history of greek mathematics... you would know that the greeks discovered irrational numbers, zero, formal proof and number theory about a 800-1000 years before the first algebraic equation came about.
*swish* Although the greeks used no formal algebra, they invented everything necessary for it to exist. Needless to say, that Babylonians did all of this a few centuries before the Greeks.
In either event, I don't think a relatively modern culture can claim ownership of a previous (millennia old) achievement that's completely unrelated to the culture claiming it. That was my point.
the arabs certainly invented the practice of jelq-ing
NSFW!
By the way, Ive been to Dubai and there is no doubt the Emiratis and Europeans (mostly Brits, Germans and French) treat all the others like second class citizens. The sad part is that my generalization is based on the people I met there, who were mostly highly educated. It is scary to think of what the uneducated and nouveau-rich locals would be like.
My current studio project is in Dubai, I feel weird about it now. We were excited to contribute to the extravagance of it, but now I feel like I should do something different. Very interesting article and an unfortunate glimmer of our world.
I swear to christ, the shit you read on internet forums...
When it comes to the Middle East, Americans are always on the wrong side of the fence. We protect absolute monarchies like Saudi Arabia, and Apartheid States like Israel. The alternative was never great but they should have paid closer attention at the *ACTUAL* moderate peoples of Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt.
Every time the US seems to interfere with the Middle East they fuck everything up!
my fear is that as designers we enable the labor abuses - after all, many of those workers are engaged to work on the very buildings we design. I've never personally worked on a Dubai project, but we all know many who do. I'm wondering if we need to consider taking a stand, like British architects did with refusing to design prisons a few years ago, and say that we won't work on projects (especially on downstream work, CD/CA) unless the owners guarantee to observer minimal health, welfare and safety standards in the project's construction.
Something about horses and barn doors comes to mind... Sounds like the construction activity there has pretty much come to a grinding halt, so any action by architects at this point would be a joke.
Besides, how do you organize something like that when we can't even organize for our own economic self-interest? Tell a bunch of architects to form a firing squad, and they'd stand in a circle.
yeah, but it'll be an iconic circle ;-P
Didnt the Arabs invent republicans?
EP, I think that was the Greek too since they also invented pederasty. ;)
whats this i smell? racism and ignorance.
for all the city's absolute faults, only a number of you seem to be able to look at things objectively,,
a few points,,
there was a point about religion early on in the thread, >"The reason for this is because certain people of certain religions look down on anyone else of any other religion"<... this doesnt stand, because, alot of the workers are Muslim, yes, just as there are non-Muslims, alot of them are Muslims, and that doesn stop at construction workers, it extends into all fields of hard labor,, just as there are alot of both, Muslims and non-Muslims in white collar jobs,, and, almost all of you seem to be aware that the guys doing most of the planning and design work (and the banking and the servicing and and and...) are Westerners, and those are the guys that are regarded in high esteem by the Local developers, so, pray tell me, how does that work? Since they highly esteemed and the guys with Capital do not share a religion... Its not a religion issue, there is a cultural fault occuring (and one could argue culture is influenced, if not dictated by, religion, but not in this case),, and in my opinion the fault is blindly assuming that the Westerners have the right answers, when, like someone mentioned above, most of the people coming here would not do well anywhere else in the world, but that doesnt mean there arent talented conscientious people... you cant generalize,,,
Second, how on earth is this not a political issue? not to sound paranoid, EVERYTHING IS A POLITICAL ISSUE,, the versailles was a political issue, the Pope Sixtus V built the Acqua Felice and the Moses Fountain for political reasons, the piazza del popolo was a political issue, so, pray tell me, Dubai is not submerged in political issues? The obvious points have been raised earlier, i think mainly by LiG, and others, and it is that the U.S, and its former president(s) and other Western Investors have made so much money on the backs of the Arabian Gulf and their leaders,,, why do you think the Dubai Stock Exchange collapsed momentarily when 9/11 happened? because all western investors pulled out, and why do you think it was reborn over night? because Saudi investors who pulled out of the U.S markets invested in Dubai,, Moreover, some of you are viewing this like a soap opera,, there is the rich, there is the poor.. the Locals and Westerners, and the Sub-continent workers,,, but, if any of you really understands how the country as a whole emerged during the 1970s (Kuwait earlier, in the 50s), you will realize it was political, and you will also realize that there is a missing link, the Middle-Easterners whose countries (mainly Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Palestine amongst others ofcourse) where in political, economic and social turmoil, so they saw hope there for their families to lead a decent life,, because Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait, Doha, Muscat where safe places, and where the children could get a fair education, play in the street, meet similar minded people, albeit from different countries, and where do you think those children are now? most of them went to western universities, trust me, and are confused at what happened to the place they grew up in, and they cannot make a solidly objective judgment,,, some of the middle eaterners have seized their opportunities when the boom happened, but others where happy to be where they already where, because, no matter what, they have come to realize that they will eventually go back to their countries after their work is done (mainly, old age, and a secure future life to their children) because the Gulf countries do not award citizenship to people who lived there (except for some occasions, and mainly to Palestinians, and thats ALSO POLITICAL)
Rockandhill, i usually admire your comments, but this time you're a bit hard headed, you're almost discounting all the work the Arabs and the Muslims have done from the 6th to the 15th century,, when one says Arab in that time, it is referred to the edges the India all the way to the edges of Granada, and the people of those areas, be they known now as uzbeks, tajiks, indians, iranian, egyptians and others they were proud to be of one Muslim culture, based on the Arabic language, and, for your info, those from the Levant have long since abandoned their archaic roots and have already become arab,, if you are familiar with Gibran Khalil Gibran, you will realize that he says "My Syrian Brothers" (he lived in contemporary lebanon, but it was known as Greater Syria, and the U.S) And "My Arab Brothers" interchangeably,,, and the Renaissance mainly happened because of the POLITCAL turmoil and the Ottoman's rise to power during that time..
Also, did anyone forget the long lived slavery that was only recently (historically) abolished in the U.S? if that wasnt true, all the hype about Obama being of african origins wouldnt have happened (I think its irrelevent, but, the hype did happen),, im only asking that one not adopt a self-entitled attitude and start bashing everyone else, just look at things objectively, and try to equate, for example say "in the U.S things happened like that, how do you think we can build on that model to fix the problems of the Arabian Gulf".. etc...
it is important to note that I agree with the ethical issue raised, i am absolutely in accordance, and i know that there are problems, hideous problems,,, i am not defending whats happening, trust me,, call for objectivity,, AND DONT FUCKING SAY "KILL ALL THE MIDDLE EAST"
"The reason for this is because certain people of certain religions look down on anyone else of any other religion"- Fays, I think the poster mentioning that was ill-informed.
It is actually people of different CLASSES treating the other classes like slaves.
I beg to differ about the people from other worse, regressive parts of the middle east moving to Dubai - yes a few of them moved to give their families better lives, but a lot of them moved FOR PURE GREED - Dubai offered them the perfect haven to invest their money in the day, screw Russian hookers at night, while the wife and kids hang out in the mall, and having a few slaves wash your feet, all at the same time. The emirates are based on nothing but a culture of hedonism, racism and escapism. Fays, as much as you can defend these guys, there is really no excuse for treating anyone the way laborers are treated in the UAE.
Speaking of the US, Slavery has been abolished since 1865. Taking that analogy to the UAE, is it safe to assume that they are still in the 19th century? (actually according to the arabic calendar, they are still in the 14th century)
Fays.panda... it was definitely me playing devil's advocate.
Thanks for the compliment. I know it was hard headed but I have quite a few muslim (slash Arab) friends I butt heads with all the time. A lot of the things they identify with as being Arab (most of them southern and central Saudi Arabian) think that Arabs basically invented the entire world. Which they really didn't (that's why I brought up the Levant).
Either way, I kind of dislike people in general using thousand year old facts to support anything. People in the US will gladly accept ancient european history as cold hard fact but when in comes to the history of the antebellum... everything is completely false [even though much of the problems of the 19th century are completely still valid?].
I think the "Arab area" is interesting because it is the nexus of "learned" humanity. But... I'm not going to excuse crimes against humanity because of historical claims of greatness (that can be explained in other cultures.)
More so, Pan-Arabianism is a relatively new concept because 150 years ago... Arabs of the same culture wanted nothing to do with each other. It wasn't until very recently that they have united as one. It's basically like Europe or East Asia that although they are all related... they haven't focused much time on unity.
It would be like me saying the US is awesome because we landed on the moon despite the fact that we have widespread wage slavery, unrealistic living situations, a massive poverty level, an even more massive homelessness problem, a major issue with credit and financing and disproportionate [almost criminal due to the extortive nature of securing energy futures] energy consumption.
Sameolddoctor,, yes, there is absolutely no excuse to the way the laborers are treated, no one with a shred of humanity can argue with that, but, you are way off on the other point... not all middle eastern men wanted to screw russian whores (which have long left and been substituted with cheaper ones from the former soviet union countries and east asia), and not all those families afforded "many slaves" if even one, you are forgetting that most of these were Muslim and a smaller number where Christian, both religions that do not approve of adultry (and slavery) yes, im sure a generous number did screw around with whores, but a bigger number did not, most of them where well learned individuals,, you cannot forget that the levant and egypt where a cultural hub in the middle part of the century, well into the 70s, meaning many of those young men moving into the Gulf at that time where well educated, and had dreams of a good honest life (i do not see whats wrong with making money,, just as an addendum!) and, i think it is too harsh to say "worse, regressive parts of the middle east",, problems can happen in any country, and it takes time, and some middle eastern countries have moved past that,, lebanon seems to be hanging on both ends, its culturally rich, but the internal conflict is extremely handicapping.
yes, greed was there, and is still, and this is everywhere, but, do not generalize, your arguement is bound to fall when you generalize..
and, its not the arabic calendar, its the Muslim calendar, and it had started at an important point in Islamic history,, that was snarky on your side,, both calendars are valid now, because you and i both know the gregorian calendar emerged after a struggle..
rockandhill, i agree with you, Pan-Arabianism is a fairly new notion, and it has primarily emerged due to political issues (occupied palestine, occupied parts of syria and lebanon, previously occupied parts of egypt),, arabs are too busy to fight amongst themselves at the moment (though they do this abundantly till now) so they are comfortable waving around the banner of pan-arabianism,, its all political,, yet, one cannot argue that culturally (and thats due to religion, and the interaction of Islam and Christianity and language) they do share alot, but i agree, i struggle with clearly understanding the underlyinh goals of pan-arabianism myself..
America did not voluntarily bring slavery to her shores. The Colonial powers discovered it in Africa where tribes sold each other into slavery where this was common practice on the continent, among the Africans themselves. The colonial merchants brought it to the caribean then to the south for massive aritocratic plantations. The north of the American country had been morally and economically opposed to slavery since inception. To say America is country that supported slavery is bullshit. America is the first country to outright ban it and kill almost a million of it's own citizens in order to stop it. So get off the America bashing people - Bush is gone.
I thought the british were the first to ban slavery?
They were as a result of the War of 1812-- they banned slavery to set an example that they were not brutish savages.
And EP, America did voluntarily bring slavery to its shores. The first common form of slavery was indentured servitude to pay for the Trans-Atlantic relocation. So, even before widespread chattel slavery, plantations and the like... the foundation of America was built on contractual enslavement.
As for Africa, it was specifically the remnants Kingdom of Ghana, the Kingdom of Ife and the Kingdom of Ashanti (Asante). They have predominately hierarchal societies and a shared pantheon religious basis in "Orisha." Part of this religious and cultural tradition requires an extensive amount of materials (mostly gold but including dyes, beads, textiles) and this is where predominately the African slave trade started. Because of the way the respective monarchies and status quo function, there is a major overlay between these African kingdoms and European Fiefdom. So, it's not that their entirely "tribes" and Africa has a few centuries of interaction with Europeans before slavery ignited in the region. America needed a lot of people, the Ashantis wanted a lot of gold and had a lot of people.
But even then, slavery in these kingdoms was relatively uncommon and relatively short-lived contractually if there was any prevalence... it certainly wasn't chattel slavery.
Hell, the Legend of Sleepy Hollow wasn't even a novel about a headless horseman (at least that wasn't necessarily the point). It was a novel about the basis of the American dream (a low ball tries to woo over old money {von tassel [count corn tassel]} so he can move to the south and start a plantation where he's allowed to use any means [chattel slavery was taboo in the pennsylvania dutch area] necessary to make money {presumably to become a free man, have his own method of transportation and have a single-family home outside of the city}).
last time i checked my history books the native americans had slavery. the aztecs had slavery. the incas had slavery. the spanish had slavery. the tainos probably had slavery. slavery was legal in ghana until five years ago. in fact every civilization in history depended upon slavery.
Ok I see now. Then GODMAN AMERICA. FUCK AMERICA. You white fucking devils should Die and have your posessions taken and redistributed. Does this mean I can get a PHD?
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