"This is a short term position to provide final review of permit submittal documents for a single story 4762 square foot office building in the -- The job would entail a detailed review of a 20 sheet plan set resulting in recommendations for edits and stamping prior to submittal. All drafting work will be provided by the employer. Must be a licensed architect in the State of --"Compensation: Payroll @ $60.00 per hour, Sub-Contract @ $85.00 per hour "
Currently I'm out of work, my previous company bankrupt due to the enconmy downturn and our only focus on Multifamily. I am licensed and have a stamp and it is not a problem for me to review the drawings for an office building. My question is what is the liability for me to stamp the drawings? Is the compensation fair enough for me to stamp the drawings with $60 or $85/hr? Also how that will affect my unemployment since this is short term work.
Your stamp on the drawings is going to make you liable. The take-home compensation numbers will look a lot different if you have to buy professional liability insurance and carry it for years going forward. Forming an LLC or similar corporation would also be an additional prudent way to limit your personal liability. Another issue is who is going to observe the construction for conformance with your stamped drawings?
Note that even if they hire you as an employee you could (depending on your state) be personally liable for the project even if you quit the firm the minute after you apply your stamp, for a long number of years as well.
In my mind: not worth it, unless they are a stellar professional group that just isn't licensed yet. Sounds top me like a sleazy attempt to skirt the law on their part. But it might be worth going for an interview with them to feel out their ethics.
You are going to be THE person liable, provided the building gets built. And you will be anywhere from 7 years to indefinitely after the building is complete depending on what state it is in. Keep in mind practically all suits will be directed at the owner so your liability only becomes a factor if the owner thinks the basis for the suit is your fault. If you are very good at codes and the building is designed per code, your liability should be minimal. But you should not work for an hourly fee - if you do it, it should be for a lump sum as an independent consultant. You will be the "Architect of Record" so you might even need to start a business which is very easy. Something like that might be worth 5-10% of the other firm's fee. That's a guess. Don't know about the unemployment thing. My guess is you go off it while the work is done, then back on it when it's over. Question is, when is it over? You will probably need to provide some CA to make sure they build what is designed as you may need to officially sign-off on the building when the construction is complete.
"Forming an LLC or similar corporation would also be an additional prudent way to limit your personal liability."
Providing services through a corporate entity or a LLC or a LLP will not protect you from professional liability ... only commercial liability. The "corporate veil" does not protect against misdeeds performed as a licensed professional.
Reason: to me, this sounds like a very bad idea. You might make a little money, but compared to the risk you are undertaking, the risk/reward ratio is all out of wack.
I understand the temptation to do this, since you are out of work. However, this has a really bad feel to me. You might get away without any issues ... but the worse case scenario could be pretty frightening.
While you could potentially limit your contractual liability, you have statutory liability of 7-10 years for anything you stamp that gets built. Even if you form an LLC or LLP the state (at least California) requires that you have insurance or a lot of money in the bank to cover your liability. If you have any assets like a house, you would want to have insurance. Plan stamping is not legal. According to the architects' practice act in CA, you can only stamp drawings completed under your "responsible control." How much control will you have?
$60-$85/hour is a way low rate for a licensed architect, and that rate does not account for the liability you might have. Our office periodically works with out of state "executive architects" who review, red-mark, stamp and locally permit drawings created in our office. These architects charge in the range of 5% of the construction budget for this service - way beyond the hours involved. They take on risk, and they want to be compensated in proportion to it. That is how you need to look at it.
Thanks for all your feed back. I need to look more into liability insurance.
Today I went there and met with the older guy who is the owner of the firm. The firm is also the client, they actually is going to build their own office. The owner was a builder before and now Tthey designed a lot of single family houses, which doesn't need architecture stamps. But for commercial they do. I'm pretty good with code. I did all the code analysis for my previous projects of big condos and apartment. The boss who stamped the drawings never even looked at all the drawings we did. I think if I want to start a business on my own in the future I need to stamp my drawings. If I never use it what is the point for me to get it anyway? But I do need to find out the value, and how much I should charge if I will stamp the drawings, and I will have good quality control to make sure drawings follow standards.
I've seen several similar 'offers' on sites like craigslist and e-lance.
Basically, the 'offer' is the result of a client hiring someone who is not licensed to do work that they should have hired a licensed architect to perform.
By performing a 'detailed review' of the drawings you have not been directly envolved enough in how the drawings were brought up to the state they are in when you begin your 'detailed reveiw'. Most states would consider this a lack of performing 'responsible control' and you'd likely be exposed to all sorts of nastyness.
Just checked the Law it is actually allowed to stamp other's drawings. (see below) Most firm's documents are prepared by interns who are not licensed architect either and I'm surprised how lack of directions sometime it is. It seems a bit scary a lot of time, the people are draw things they don't fully understand. The only chance to catch it is quality control. I don't see most of the firms are really good at that either.
"Architects
Under Washington law, architects may stamp documents prepared by others in two instances.
First, the architect may stamp drawings “prepared by . . . regularly employed subordinates.”6
These subordinates, however, must be working under the architect’s “direction and control” and
the documents must be prepared under the architect’s “personal supervision.”7
Second, an architect may stamp another’s work if the architect “review[s]” the document.8
Washington’s regulations governing the practice of architecture define “review” as:
[a] continuous process of examination, evaluation, and direction throughout the
development of the documents, which includes the ability to control the final
product.9"
neither of those two conditions are met by the arrangement proposed by your potential client.
you had no employed subordinates nor were you involved in a 'continuous process...throughout development of the documents.'
"Most firm's documents are prepared by interns who are not licensed architect either and I'm surprised how lack of directions sometime it is. It seems a bit scary a lot of time, the people are draw things they don't fully understand. The only chance to catch it is quality control. I don't see most of the firms are really good at that either."
it sounds like you're getting emotionally involved and rationalizing the situation with some strange arguments.
Ask about a hold-harmless and conditionless indemnity agreement, as well as reimbursable costs for legal expenditures, including having your lawyer sign and review said indemnity agreement(s). That will probably make THEM run.
El jeffe, i've worked in practices where the principal's stamp gets put on drawings put together by interns who have no clue what they are doing, and with little to no input from the principal beyond basic design and layout.
He'd be getting sued up and down the block if they didn't have their own GC who figures out all the shit in field for them.
I've never worked in a practice where the licensed arch had all the answers to my questions, most of the time i get to look things up in Graphic Standards, especially when it comes to building construction.
we all know sink or swim office cultures, but how someone chooses to run their practice within the legal limits of their license is one thing; using that poor management system to justify a situation that is pretty clearly outside the legal definition allowed by the license (reason's citation above) is an entirely different matter.
I don't know if it is as bad as all these people are saying. It's not great, but maybe not that bad. You've met with the firm. Why don't you just talk to them about it? Talk to them about having a more active role in the design of the building. If they are unwilling to do that then it is not worth working with them, whether it's legal or not. It is legal BTW. If you review the drawings, make corrections, they pick up the changes, you review, looks good, it's legal. And again - lump sum fee. That will actually promote them to get you more involved instead of with an hourly they will try to keep you away.
I think I remember seeing this ad on craigslist and thinking they were bottom feeding and looking to take advantage of a deperate licensed person.
Anyhow, this could work to your advantage and it may lead to more work in the future. That would be the only reason to pursue it. Otherwise $85 p/h to review and stamp...how many hours could you possibly bill? 20, 30 ? For $2500 bucks it hardly seems worth it to hang yourself out there for a one time shot. Geting a lawyer to draw up an indemnity clause will wipe out that $2500!!
The compensation needs to match the risk. I'd say a lump sum of 20k is about right and you can spend as much time in CA as you need.
my $.02. I charge 5k minimum for my stamp. (depending on the project) Charge a fee that covers the single project liability costs up to 500k or so and allows you to put money in your pocket for your time as well.
I'd suggest you get a retainer and mark the shit up out of the set he gives you.. like really bleed on every single page. he'll have to go back and make all the corrections, then bring it back to you to review again..
Do another round of mark-ups and let him know your fee does not cover multiple rounds of back and forth with the docs, request a mod to your contract for the "time spent reviewing above and beyond the provided fee". get another couple thousand out of him, then stamp away with a disclaimer that states any revisions requested by the local permit department are not your responsibility.
c'mon y'all these are tough economic times!!! gotta be creative!
I agree. Tough times - gotta get creative. In reality, you are going to be this company's architect. So charge accordingly - usually 5-10% depending on job size, then deduct whatever drafting they will be doing for you. Draft up a contract and add a clause that states the owner agrees to limit the Architect's liability for damages to the amount of insurance coverage you have.
Thanks for all your feed back. I agree we got to be creative at this economic time. Remember lately listen to NPR mentioned how there is works but not jobs right now. A atterny lost her job and start her own business, because of lower overhead, she actually got quite a few cases.
To me this is an oppotunity to get contacts and lead to future projects. Also by checking and marking up drawing it helps me review all the code related issue and drawing standards. They are very cooperative so far, are making changes to meet all the drawing standards. I learned quite a few things through the projects and meeting with consultants. I didn't see any advantage for me to sit around with my stamp doing nothing. I charge over 100hr fee and make sure I will be covered by their liability insurance. Sometime it maybe a win win situation for everyone.
I do enjoy the comfort and security to work for others and never worry about liability. But right now it may not be readily availalbe. Interviewed for a job with other 100 candidate for a PA position, ask for revit experiences. Suppose to heard back in a week, then delay then never heard from them. I'm sure the other 90 something candidates feel the same frustration.
reason - all anyone can say is goodluck to you. And everyone else on here that is hanging their shingle, or looking for a full time, or trying to hang on at their firm. Everyone has their own threshold for risk, and it sounds like you've found yours. In times like these, "standard" practice goes by the way side. Hopefully it doesn't result in a lowering of standards, but a leaner more business savvy profession down the road.
: "I ... make sure I will be covered by their liability insurance." ... if they have no licensed professionals on their staff, I'm not sure they are in a position to purchase E&O insurance that will protect you personally against professional liability.
You might want to look into this aspect further and verify whether they're just talking about "general liability" coverage, which is something altogether different and doesn't give you a dime's worth of coverage with respect to professional E&O problems. Without genuine E&O coverage, if you stamp the drawings as the licensed professional, you're on your own with respect to E&O issues.
If they do have genuine professional liability coverage, make sure you're listed individually as a "named insured" and make sure there's a clause in your contract that gives you at least 90-days advance written notice of their intent to cancel the coverage.
Most E&O coverage is provided on a "claims made" basis -- meaning if the claim arises in 2012 and they no longer have the insurance in effect at that time, the claimant is going to come after you personally.
i think the biggest liability is disciplinary action by your state board (washington). i agree with el jeffe that according to the project description you provided, you do not meet either of the conditions stipulated in the state of washington. there is significant potential that you could be fined more than the fee you earn and/ or lose your license plus as an added bonus you could get sued later by another owner years after the project is built. think about that. what's to stop the owner from selling that property next week if they want?
This is the sort of thing that undermines and devalues the profession. You subject yourself to unreasonable liability -- for a long time!! -- and for little compensation with no benefits. If the drawings require an architect's stamp, they should have been prepared by an architect (or under his or her supervision.)
You are being used.
After you lose any unemployment you have and pay your taxes, including social security and medicare you will see that it isn't worth it to compromise your ethics for so little.
Take the advise others have given and RUN.
I wish you well in finding more honest and lucrative work.
Feb 28, 09 4:50 am ·
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Shall I consider this? What is the liability?
"This is a short term position to provide final review of permit submittal documents for a single story 4762 square foot office building in the -- The job would entail a detailed review of a 20 sheet plan set resulting in recommendations for edits and stamping prior to submittal. All drafting work will be provided by the employer. Must be a licensed architect in the State of --"Compensation: Payroll @ $60.00 per hour, Sub-Contract @ $85.00 per hour "
Currently I'm out of work, my previous company bankrupt due to the enconmy downturn and our only focus on Multifamily. I am licensed and have a stamp and it is not a problem for me to review the drawings for an office building. My question is what is the liability for me to stamp the drawings? Is the compensation fair enough for me to stamp the drawings with $60 or $85/hr? Also how that will affect my unemployment since this is short term work.
Your stamp on the drawings is going to make you liable. The take-home compensation numbers will look a lot different if you have to buy professional liability insurance and carry it for years going forward. Forming an LLC or similar corporation would also be an additional prudent way to limit your personal liability. Another issue is who is going to observe the construction for conformance with your stamped drawings?
Note that even if they hire you as an employee you could (depending on your state) be personally liable for the project even if you quit the firm the minute after you apply your stamp, for a long number of years as well.
In my mind: not worth it, unless they are a stellar professional group that just isn't licensed yet. Sounds top me like a sleazy attempt to skirt the law on their part. But it might be worth going for an interview with them to feel out their ethics.
You are going to be THE person liable, provided the building gets built. And you will be anywhere from 7 years to indefinitely after the building is complete depending on what state it is in. Keep in mind practically all suits will be directed at the owner so your liability only becomes a factor if the owner thinks the basis for the suit is your fault. If you are very good at codes and the building is designed per code, your liability should be minimal. But you should not work for an hourly fee - if you do it, it should be for a lump sum as an independent consultant. You will be the "Architect of Record" so you might even need to start a business which is very easy. Something like that might be worth 5-10% of the other firm's fee. That's a guess. Don't know about the unemployment thing. My guess is you go off it while the work is done, then back on it when it's over. Question is, when is it over? You will probably need to provide some CA to make sure they build what is designed as you may need to officially sign-off on the building when the construction is complete.
You will be liable.
This liability could be for some time.
Compensation does not seem to outweigh the risks.
Pass.
Providing services through a corporate entity or a LLC or a LLP will not protect you from professional liability ... only commercial liability. The "corporate veil" does not protect against misdeeds performed as a licensed professional.
Reason: to me, this sounds like a very bad idea. You might make a little money, but compared to the risk you are undertaking, the risk/reward ratio is all out of wack.
I understand the temptation to do this, since you are out of work. However, this has a really bad feel to me. You might get away without any issues ... but the worse case scenario could be pretty frightening.
RUN!!!DON"T LOOK BACK-
While you could potentially limit your contractual liability, you have statutory liability of 7-10 years for anything you stamp that gets built. Even if you form an LLC or LLP the state (at least California) requires that you have insurance or a lot of money in the bank to cover your liability. If you have any assets like a house, you would want to have insurance. Plan stamping is not legal. According to the architects' practice act in CA, you can only stamp drawings completed under your "responsible control." How much control will you have?
$60-$85/hour is a way low rate for a licensed architect, and that rate does not account for the liability you might have. Our office periodically works with out of state "executive architects" who review, red-mark, stamp and locally permit drawings created in our office. These architects charge in the range of 5% of the construction budget for this service - way beyond the hours involved. They take on risk, and they want to be compensated in proportion to it. That is how you need to look at it.
Thanks for all your feed back. I need to look more into liability insurance.
Today I went there and met with the older guy who is the owner of the firm. The firm is also the client, they actually is going to build their own office. The owner was a builder before and now Tthey designed a lot of single family houses, which doesn't need architecture stamps. But for commercial they do. I'm pretty good with code. I did all the code analysis for my previous projects of big condos and apartment. The boss who stamped the drawings never even looked at all the drawings we did. I think if I want to start a business on my own in the future I need to stamp my drawings. If I never use it what is the point for me to get it anyway? But I do need to find out the value, and how much I should charge if I will stamp the drawings, and I will have good quality control to make sure drawings follow standards.
Spaceman is correct - in California what they are asking you to do has in the past been prosecuted as "abetting unlicensed practice".
i don't imagine you got your license in order to stamp other people's drawings.
be very careful.
RUN LIKE THE WIND!
I've seen several similar 'offers' on sites like craigslist and e-lance.
Basically, the 'offer' is the result of a client hiring someone who is not licensed to do work that they should have hired a licensed architect to perform.
By performing a 'detailed review' of the drawings you have not been directly envolved enough in how the drawings were brought up to the state they are in when you begin your 'detailed reveiw'. Most states would consider this a lack of performing 'responsible control' and you'd likely be exposed to all sorts of nastyness.
Also, one last thought: Your liability insurance may not cover a claim related to work that was in voilation of the states professional practice act.
Make sure you read the fine print of your policy should you decide to undertake this risky venture.
Just checked the Law it is actually allowed to stamp other's drawings. (see below) Most firm's documents are prepared by interns who are not licensed architect either and I'm surprised how lack of directions sometime it is. It seems a bit scary a lot of time, the people are draw things they don't fully understand. The only chance to catch it is quality control. I don't see most of the firms are really good at that either.
"Architects
Under Washington law, architects may stamp documents prepared by others in two instances.
First, the architect may stamp drawings “prepared by . . . regularly employed subordinates.”6
These subordinates, however, must be working under the architect’s “direction and control” and
the documents must be prepared under the architect’s “personal supervision.”7
Second, an architect may stamp another’s work if the architect “review[s]” the document.8
Washington’s regulations governing the practice of architecture define “review” as:
[a] continuous process of examination, evaluation, and direction throughout the
development of the documents, which includes the ability to control the final
product.9"
neither of those two conditions are met by the arrangement proposed by your potential client.
you had no employed subordinates nor were you involved in a 'continuous process...throughout development of the documents.'
be very cautious.
"Most firm's documents are prepared by interns who are not licensed architect either and I'm surprised how lack of directions sometime it is. It seems a bit scary a lot of time, the people are draw things they don't fully understand. The only chance to catch it is quality control. I don't see most of the firms are really good at that either."
it sounds like you're getting emotionally involved and rationalizing the situation with some strange arguments.
be very, very cautious.
Ask about a hold-harmless and conditionless indemnity agreement, as well as reimbursable costs for legal expenditures, including having your lawyer sign and review said indemnity agreement(s). That will probably make THEM run.
oops - the lawyer should MAKE and review the indemnity agreement.
El jeffe, i've worked in practices where the principal's stamp gets put on drawings put together by interns who have no clue what they are doing, and with little to no input from the principal beyond basic design and layout.
He'd be getting sued up and down the block if they didn't have their own GC who figures out all the shit in field for them.
I've never worked in a practice where the licensed arch had all the answers to my questions, most of the time i get to look things up in Graphic Standards, especially when it comes to building construction.
we all know sink or swim office cultures, but how someone chooses to run their practice within the legal limits of their license is one thing; using that poor management system to justify a situation that is pretty clearly outside the legal definition allowed by the license (reason's citation above) is an entirely different matter.
Ditto, what jeffe just said. Double ditto. Double dog ditto.
I don't know if it is as bad as all these people are saying. It's not great, but maybe not that bad. You've met with the firm. Why don't you just talk to them about it? Talk to them about having a more active role in the design of the building. If they are unwilling to do that then it is not worth working with them, whether it's legal or not. It is legal BTW. If you review the drawings, make corrections, they pick up the changes, you review, looks good, it's legal. And again - lump sum fee. That will actually promote them to get you more involved instead of with an hourly they will try to keep you away.
couldn't agree more jeffe, i just find it disturbing how prolific those kinds of practices are.
I think I remember seeing this ad on craigslist and thinking they were bottom feeding and looking to take advantage of a deperate licensed person.
Anyhow, this could work to your advantage and it may lead to more work in the future. That would be the only reason to pursue it. Otherwise $85 p/h to review and stamp...how many hours could you possibly bill? 20, 30 ? For $2500 bucks it hardly seems worth it to hang yourself out there for a one time shot. Geting a lawyer to draw up an indemnity clause will wipe out that $2500!!
The compensation needs to match the risk. I'd say a lump sum of 20k is about right and you can spend as much time in CA as you need.
my $.02. I charge 5k minimum for my stamp. (depending on the project) Charge a fee that covers the single project liability costs up to 500k or so and allows you to put money in your pocket for your time as well.
I'd suggest you get a retainer and mark the shit up out of the set he gives you.. like really bleed on every single page. he'll have to go back and make all the corrections, then bring it back to you to review again..
Do another round of mark-ups and let him know your fee does not cover multiple rounds of back and forth with the docs, request a mod to your contract for the "time spent reviewing above and beyond the provided fee". get another couple thousand out of him, then stamp away with a disclaimer that states any revisions requested by the local permit department are not your responsibility.
c'mon y'all these are tough economic times!!! gotta be creative!
I agree. Tough times - gotta get creative. In reality, you are going to be this company's architect. So charge accordingly - usually 5-10% depending on job size, then deduct whatever drafting they will be doing for you. Draft up a contract and add a clause that states the owner agrees to limit the Architect's liability for damages to the amount of insurance coverage you have.
Thanks for all your feed back. I agree we got to be creative at this economic time. Remember lately listen to NPR mentioned how there is works but not jobs right now. A atterny lost her job and start her own business, because of lower overhead, she actually got quite a few cases.
To me this is an oppotunity to get contacts and lead to future projects. Also by checking and marking up drawing it helps me review all the code related issue and drawing standards. They are very cooperative so far, are making changes to meet all the drawing standards. I learned quite a few things through the projects and meeting with consultants. I didn't see any advantage for me to sit around with my stamp doing nothing. I charge over 100hr fee and make sure I will be covered by their liability insurance. Sometime it maybe a win win situation for everyone.
I do enjoy the comfort and security to work for others and never worry about liability. But right now it may not be readily availalbe. Interviewed for a job with other 100 candidate for a PA position, ask for revit experiences. Suppose to heard back in a week, then delay then never heard from them. I'm sure the other 90 something candidates feel the same frustration.
reason - all anyone can say is goodluck to you. And everyone else on here that is hanging their shingle, or looking for a full time, or trying to hang on at their firm. Everyone has their own threshold for risk, and it sounds like you've found yours. In times like these, "standard" practice goes by the way side. Hopefully it doesn't result in a lowering of standards, but a leaner more business savvy profession down the road.
: "I ... make sure I will be covered by their liability insurance." ... if they have no licensed professionals on their staff, I'm not sure they are in a position to purchase E&O insurance that will protect you personally against professional liability.
You might want to look into this aspect further and verify whether they're just talking about "general liability" coverage, which is something altogether different and doesn't give you a dime's worth of coverage with respect to professional E&O problems. Without genuine E&O coverage, if you stamp the drawings as the licensed professional, you're on your own with respect to E&O issues.
If they do have genuine professional liability coverage, make sure you're listed individually as a "named insured" and make sure there's a clause in your contract that gives you at least 90-days advance written notice of their intent to cancel the coverage.
Most E&O coverage is provided on a "claims made" basis -- meaning if the claim arises in 2012 and they no longer have the insurance in effect at that time, the claimant is going to come after you personally.
Good luck.
i think the biggest liability is disciplinary action by your state board (washington). i agree with el jeffe that according to the project description you provided, you do not meet either of the conditions stipulated in the state of washington. there is significant potential that you could be fined more than the fee you earn and/ or lose your license plus as an added bonus you could get sued later by another owner years after the project is built. think about that. what's to stop the owner from selling that property next week if they want?
This is the sort of thing that undermines and devalues the profession. You subject yourself to unreasonable liability -- for a long time!! -- and for little compensation with no benefits. If the drawings require an architect's stamp, they should have been prepared by an architect (or under his or her supervision.)
You are being used.
After you lose any unemployment you have and pay your taxes, including social security and medicare you will see that it isn't worth it to compromise your ethics for so little.
Take the advise others have given and RUN.
I wish you well in finding more honest and lucrative work.
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