"yes ,but unless you boiled down the animal hides, hooves to a glue like collagen, made from glue pots that you threw and fired yourself, to build the model with, well it's really cheating, isn't it. "


there is a difference between a first year student physically putting together his model and hiring someone to put it together for him

if in your first year, you think you cant build models well, what exactly are you basing that on?
you need to develop the skills, just like you need to develop drawing and drafting skills
it takes time, and isnt done overnight

z88, I graduated from UH and remember the "cube project" quite well. Yes, first year is definitely a weed out year and a few of my classmates had to retake first year. Mainly because of similar situations as yours: bad craft/presentation and incomplete work, a killer combination. I didn't have stellar craft, but I did have complete projects that fully conveyed a design solution for both exacting critics and softies. And I took a C+ in my second year for a project that included what I felt to be a stellar model and drawings. i wanted to argue it but I didn't because I realized I had totally missed the intent of the design problem.

Unfortunately, arch school is sooo freaking subjective that yeah, your future depends on what name you choose from the class schedule. Hang in there and accept the help offered, you're not a failure just because you have to repeat.

And regarding someone else building your models, there was a guy who would have both his girlfriends help him with his. He was a repeater.

Craft means a tremendous amount to architecture. Craft, precision, and skill are extremely important.

So are finishing all of the requirements, and finishing them on time. It's good prep for the real world of architectural practice.

That said, from the one image, your project looks reasonably good. Not slapped together. In my teaching, I award a C if the student slacks off, and a D if they REALLY noticeably don't care. Fulfilling the requirements for the class, even with minor errors and a few days late, is usually worth at least a C+.

Are + / - really necessary? If C- doesn't let you pass, than it's effectively a D+ /D / D- / F+ /F /F-.

craft, precision and skill are quite effective in disguising the lack of thought, ideas, process...

i love it, helping this kid build a model is cheating, and helping a grad student build theirs is "tradition." man i love this profession!

they are also ways to emphasize your thoughts, ideas, and process


if you never take the time to bother to learn any skills, how are you going to present these ideas?


going to school is about more than just getting great ideas
its about being able to show and explain them to other people

craft, precision and skill are methods for this


some people can have awesome models and BS their way through a presentation, when their ideas arent that great
that is another way to disguise your lack of ideas

yep Jack, you're right there, that plus/minus thing is the precursor to those millennials, who's parents helicopter in to save their brats.

your craft and my craft are one thing; subjective.

"yes ,but unless you boiled down the animal hides, hooves to a glue like collagen, made from glue pots that you threw and fired yourself, to build the model with, well it's really cheating, isn't it. "

Not even close. But you seem convinced of cheating as the better way.

Anything below a C+ is a fail in my faculty. I just remembered that.

i dont buy for a second that anyone here had such brilliant design ideas in school that justified them being someone who had to spend all their time and energy on these designs that someone else had to build their models for them

i buy for a second that people THOUGHT their ideas were that brilliant


the egos of architects (students and architects in general) tend to be way higher than they need to be
hence some of the comments you see on these boards for example

The point of learning how to build a model in design school is not to simply produce a nice-looking end-product, it's to learn how to design using 3 dimensional aids and analysis. Getting someone else to simply produce a pretty-looking product for you is completely missing the point.

That said, giving a grade based 100% on model craft in a design studio sequence is also completely missing the point. I sincerely doubt this professor is actually doing that.

and what is a response you can give to your professor when he asks you why you didnt build your model yourself?

is there a response that doesnt make you sound like a snobby stupid kid who is positive he is already the next big thing?

'i love it, helping this kid build a model is cheating, and helping a grad student build theirs is "tradition." man i love this profession!'

What's this "tradition" you keep referencing?

There are definitely a lot things I see here in this kid's case that have been more common lately. Remember, not everyone gets through architecture school once in. The real challenge is getting through architecture school.

There is one thing that you have undertstand no matter what -- especially for the young people getting in. You HAVE to understand this too.

Your professors know more about architecture, design, and the profession than you do. I see a lot of young kids these days who already think they are architects while in college. I see many people who only care about their own work, their designs, they never ask about other people's projects, and never seek advice on their projects. And in all likelihood, many of these people are only in studio about three times a week and they do much of their work at home. These are types of students who generally fail down the stretch.

My advice: Listen to your professor because he or she obviously knows more than you do. Get advice from your colleagues and learn from their projects. Take positions, never appologize for your work, and always be involved but not in an annoying way. and time management is a huge thing. It sounds as if you didn't spend enough time on your work since you had too much on your plate at the end. Pissing away all of your time when things arent necessarily due can bite you in the ass in the long run. And you just have to be in studio and you have to do work their so that your professors will see how engaged you are and visually they can see the progress of your work.

Sorry if this sounds crude but it's really the reality of the situation.

KURT, go read HERE, Bottom 3rd

12/11/08 20:57

hello tc,

i have a general question... someone in this here school i'm at sent around an email basically asking undergrads in the first years to help out graduate thesis students on various tasks..[model making and such] apparently this is some sort of tradition that is passed on, the junior students learn and in turn will be helped when their turn comes. now we're getting emails from thesis students asking for help [and apparently miffed that they're not getting much].

i mean, are you serious? is this really a tradition? i've been in 2 other schools in the us and this is the first time i've heard of this. the emails are starting to get a bit funny in tone -amazed at not getting volunteers at this busy point in the semester.


nearly all the comments chalk "this" up to tradition.

this is hott....

"Craft means a tremendous amount to architecture. Craft, precision, and skill are extremely important".....

can we cross-reference this to learning trades and design/build too?



a few questions for the OP
1. do you have s uper studio professor
2. are there ego's involved
3. does this professor have a portfolio


most first year studio suck anyways so whats the problem????... it's a breaking point for the young minds to realize that they have 4-5 years of this shit.

that is a weird tradition at that school
is that an ivy league school by any chance?
just curious to see if the stereotypes live up to themseleves


at this school, are the "junior" students (if any upity upper classmen called me that, i might have been offended) done with their classes when being asked for their help?
I sure hope so
if i was in the middle of final projects, and some grad students gave attitude because we werent helping them with their work to their satisfaction, i would have been a little annoyed

but it's tradition.

do they get paid?
what if the work isnt up to the upper classman's standards?


it seems like hazing for a fraternity or something



it just seems foreign to me because they didnt have that where i went to school

i wonder who was the first to start the tradition
that was the smart guy

he got some undergrads to do his work, and conned them into thinking it was tradition

right, just like this kids is being hazed for doing exactly what the instructions say, and then gets hazed by prof that says one thing and does another, and never an evaluation at the mid-term to lay out the deficiencies.

the kid did something i doubt most new students do, take a studio critic with a tough rep, for that i give bonus points.

listen, if you want to be a furniture builder craft means something, if you want to be an architect, build something resembling what your idea is and move on. museum quality, or subjective definitions of what craft "means" are fucking retarded, and i mean in the Corky sort of way.

unfortunately, if you take a class, you have to play by that professors rules

unless you want to crusade to change the ways classes are taught and graded

which wouldnt be a bad thing mind you
it is just not an easy thing to do




i do agree with you though
he does get bonus points for trying to challenge himself
and that should also factor in if he doesnt get through it on the first try
at least it was a hard studio that you failed
i doubt you are the only one who failed this guys studio, and you wont be the last
nothing really to be ashamed of

beta, i think you've partly derailed this conversation into a screed against the - yes - tradition of underclasspeople helping thesis people with final presentation of their projects. it was, in fact, a tradition at my school, one i supported as a helper and one that helped me as a thesis student. it's almost always a discreet phase of work from the design phase of the project - it's just about production to reflect decisions already made. the helpers learn a lot about what's expected of them and get to see the thesis student in the throes of the work.

it has nothing to do with this student's dilemma!! if he hasn't built models before, he should not be getting upperclassmen or anyone else to help - he needs to learn to MAKE MODELS and, in the meantime, learn from the making.

making and making and making is an integral part of beginning architectural education. i can't even figure out why that completely separate discussion is even on the table here.

Actually, I'm not sure I know WHAT Beta's point is...

I agree with SW... I always assumed that basic model-building skills were a fairly important part of architectural education, both in terms of thinking about material properties and how things fit together, and in terms of simply being employable as an entry-level intern.

By the time thesis year rolls around, students should have already had a few years of earning their model-building chops, and will have bigger fish to fry at that point. Maybe if the OP'er had spent some time helping a thesis student with his model, his own model wouldn't be so bad. Besides, you don't have to be the next Rem Koolhaas to take a few extra seconds to clean up your glue and graphite.

i didn't derail anything, vado was making a joke, and i commented on people all up in arms about that joke...my comments and my point is, that the professor noted that his reasoning for the grade reflected the "craft" of the work presented. if craft - about as subjective a rationale as i have ever seen - ever figured into a students grade, i better have my head examined. i am tough critic, sat on enough reviews, and the one thing i am not critical of is the "craft" of the model. i will be critical of a representation that does not bear out the thesis statement, but i could care less if someone built the model using sobo glue, elmers glue, horse glue or cheeze whiz, balsa, birch, maple, or foam core. the IDEA should be the discussion, craft is developed over time and it changes about as easily as i change underwear.

so let me get this straight, the only lessons worth teaching students are when those lesson involve those inexperienced lower classmen, helping build finished thesis models for upperclassmen? lessons of model building could never be taught by upperclassmen to help the underclass in the finishing of their final models?

while that makes sense beta, but if you are a first year studio professor and you see a sloppy model that could have easily been cleaned up, wouldnt that reflect negatively on your grading?

if it looks just thrown together quickly and sloppily for a final presentation, that seems like it would and should have a negative impact on the grade

i agree that the idea should be the discussion, and it really shouldnt be discussed in the final presentation beyond just a comment saying the model making needs work

but when evaluating the final grade, i would think that everything is taken into consideration, including the quality of the presentation, drawings, and models


now how much the model making should count towards a grade is completely subjective based on each professors preference

Except that you weren't running that particular class, Beta.

"Craft" counted toward one's grade in this kid's class. Period.

z88 dug his own grave. He picked the professor and did not deliver the goods. No argument there.

However, I don't understand the fascination with fucking chip board and elmer's. What a complete waste of time.


1. Model the fucking thing on the machine.

2. Send to stereolithography apparatus.

3. Work on your A+ in Party Hard 101 while the model is printing.

look at the kids model, does that look sloppy, no. does it look museum quality? no. it looks like an underclass model. it doesn't look mailed in, it doesn't look like it wsa made with cheetos or play-doh or legos. it even looks like basswood, when i saw in my first year, most students were using balsa. this model, if we are judging just on model "craft" looks like a C+.

now if some kid presented a model using macaroni on paper plates, and i found out he/she did it the night before, i don't care how good the thesis was; i rip them a new asshole, and toss that model around the room. but, this kid produced a real model, with some earnest effort. there apparently was no warning this ridiculous grade was coming, and the kid should have known it was a possibility.

case closed.

not really beta

the kid knew he had a C+ before this major project then hands it in late

you cant argue a grade reduction when you hand in the major project of the studio late

KURT, you are right, all i am saying is that it's a BS standard.

look, i think you are missing something. he wrote this to the kid...

I appreciate your maturity and enthusiasm. In the end, your craft was such that I couldn't let you go to the Spring semester.
But I am confident that you will do what it takes to improve, so that when you come back next Fall, you will be in a position
to be ahead of the other students and be a leader in the Studio.


I would use the time until then to practice your modeling skills, concentrating on the projects from this semester,especially the cube project.
If you need advice, stop by anytime after studio - I would be happy to help."

where in that is the reason for the downgrade was because the project was late?

very true
but when you dont hand things in on time, you give up the right to complain when you get bad grades

again, honesty, be honest!

how mutha effing hard is that?!

I didn't read this whole post, but have you looked for a grade review process in your college catalog? I would be amazed if the professor allone had total discretion. BTW I successfully challenged a studio grade

you're right you can't complain, if the reason for downgrade was the lateness, AND the critic cites that as the reason.

like i said, i never argued a grade, never. and i don't mean that in a Bill Clinton sort of way, i mean never.

well the reason was the model making skills, which we clearly stated as a big part of the project and the studio

he had a C+, then had what his professor considered a sloppy model that was handed in late
so his grade changed to a D+
final projects are usually weighted more than everything before it, so it really shouldnt be a surprise to this kid


all i am saying is this kid doesnt have much room to complain considering everything we have heard


i remember doing 2 or 3 small projects in the first month of class that took a lot of time, and were usually drawing exercises, or model building things
they were usually really nice pieces of work when done
but then the actual class project came along, and that was essentially your grade, regardless of how well those earlier projects went

i see it being completely reasonable for someone to have a C+, then to come in late with a sloppy project and have his final grade reflect that

sounds like the professor needs to do a more thorough job of explaining it to his students when they ask the criteria for their grade, but your grade before your final project in a studio sometimes means next to nothing

Truth... the model looks like it was slapped together at the last minute. Very hard to find a straight line anywhere. Very little coherence of thought... I shudder to think what the back side of this model looks like.

beta, the teacher did tell him he had a C+ going into the project, and did tell him it would drop further if he didn't do well on the final project. I know the letter sounds different (perhaps because it was in response to a specific question?) but the student himself in the original post admits he knew he was in danger of failing before the project even started. And then he didn't finish his work. I really think there is more than just model craft to this story.

1. madivan, that's a D+ model? please, don't try and sell me on straightness being a criteria for grading, this is not a model building class or Construction 2 class, this is a studio 101 class.
2. manta, don't "read" into anything, the critic - at least as presented - never said that his grade would drop - a full grade - in fact the email never mentions lateness.

In almost every class I've ever taken, an assignment are usually dropped a full letter grade for every day it's late, unless other arrangements have already been agreed upon. This is something that would be spelled out in the syllabus at the beginning of the term.

according to this professor, it was a D+ model
i cant open the link here at work, it gets blocked, so i cant comment on it


this is part of the problem though, its all subjective based on what the professor is looking for

you have all semester to figure out what the professor wants, and to deliver that to them for the final presentation



just out of curiosity beta, when you were a professor, how did you set up your grading?
whenever i see these conversations, i always wonder what i would base my grading on if i was the professor

manta, i think you are reading things in his first post that don't exist.

"I shudder to think what the back side of this model looks like."

That's nothing, speaking of backsides...earlier beta was braggin' about changing underwear.... :-)

Can we all agree that we're just killin' time until Christmas break?