holz, many law schools will give loan relief if their grads go into public interest law or otherwise work for a not-for-profit.. that might be a way out of debtors' prison for some of them.
i'm not going to stop trying to be an architect. i have two arch degrees (professional and post-professional) and taking ARE's now. i LOVE architecture. i'm not going to toot my own horn, but maybe i should for a change dammit- i've won design awards, i've excelled in my profession, and yet here i still am- unemployed. but perhaps an old saying i once heard is ringing true- "make what you love your hobby, not your career".
what is so grim to me, is that i have about 40 more years in the workforce. it will take me approximately 3-4 years to finish law school and my son won't have even entered the first grade yet. in that time frame, even as a licensed architect i won't be making six figures- if i'd EVER make six figures- but yet i could as a lawyer. plus i would have my arch license in addition. everything you learned in architecture school - including defending a thesis- is a very valid skillset for law school. i see the chances as a lawyer MUCH brighter than that in the architecture profession. i have connections to get into law school, and for funding which doesn't include loans. i found out if you go to law school full time you finish in 3 years, part time is 4 years. well shoot... that leaves me with 36 years left to be a lawyer and earn more money in one year than would take me to earn in FOUR as an architect.
i guess i'm thinking more about my future and my family and less about just doing architecture because i'm passionate about it. i'm at a crossroads, and i'm not going to leave my future all to chance.
I was thinking about getting a degree in Psychology so I can be a counselor, if people are not spending money on new homes or renovations they might be a little depressed and need someone to assure them they are all right. I figure the two professions Architecture and psychology are often in demand at different ends of economic fluctuations.
thats why the economy is so messed up rich folks are not spending or investing as much as they used to, not because there is no money! so tell all your rich republican buddies to start investing, fund an up and coming office like displacedarchitects and assoc. or something
I think the times of lawyers making big bucks are over, they are in the same shithole now as architects, well maybe, not as bad, but they are not getting that much income nowdays as they used to in old days...
yea i heard one lawyers lecture, he said he only makes 540 Dollares an hour, not as much as the good ol days, although new lawyers graduating are the ones having trouble establishing themselves.
you're not going to find a profession that has been untouched where not a single person has been laid off. (except for maybe plumbers?) so yeah there's arguments for this and against that- but i've spent just as much time, effort, and money to become an architect and with architects at somewhere between 40-60% unemployment it seems like wages are going down for us (at least where i'm at) which is absurd. i'd rather spend the next four years becoming a lawyer because even if i earn HALF of what they earn right now it would still be twice as much or more than what i'd earn as an architect.
yes, i know, everything is not about money... but to be realistic, i can't afford to do everything for free. and if i get one more damned email from the AIA about volunteering for this or speaking for free for that i'm going to explode.
Not too much traffic here lately, maybe it is the nice weather or things are stabilizing. I’m still not working professionally and now that the census job is winding down I am facing the fact that I have to budget. An interesting exercise to do is figure out how many hours of minimum wage work a week you need to do to break even until this crisis becomes a recovery. For me living in central IL it was 52 hours a week. That includes paying student loans, debts and other “living” expenses. Another thing I discovered is this nifty tax calculator if you are considering an offer it may help you see what your potential take home pay could be.
Not sure how accurate it is but it could be useful in estimating.
Summer is here and now is the optimum time to reconnect with your college or university and get appointments with career counselors and faculty who can help you tweak your resume, and or advise you on skills to work on. Second opinions are always useful and for most of us this is a free service.
Has anyone opened up a stand at a local farmer’s market? I might be starting one in the next few weeks it just cost $10 per market day, I will keep you posted how it goes.
Now a question that may spark a debate;
Is it fair and or wise to try and assemble a team for a pro-bono project for a non-for-profit that has limited resources? The way I see it is I / we get experience and IDP training units and a worthy cause gets a building renovated to bring it up to code so they can stay open. I know working for a firm for free is a bad idea but is building a project team to service a client with no means to pay ethical if the people involved are gaining IDP units and keeping their skills up-to-date. This has been a difficult quandary and I’m not sure what to do, stipulate a modest fee and not do the project at all or work for free or next to free and gain the experience necessary to qualify for NCARB registration. Myself and a few others are about 300 hours away from having the IDP done and the green light for NCARB registration, I know you can take the ARE early but in some states you are going to run into problems with reciprocity if you did not finish the IDP program first. Perhaps I’m misinformed on this.
"Not too much traffic here lately, maybe it is the nice weather or things are stabilizing."
It seems like offices are letting people go but they aren't exactly hiring either and it's not really showing much promise that situation is going to change anytime soon. I'm starting to face the grim reality that this might as good as it gets.
I know you can take the ARE early but in some states you are going to run into problems with reciprocity if you did not finish the IDP program first.
I'm not sure the specific rules but passing the ARE's and finishing IDP, regardless of order completed, is still the same amount of work/accomplishment. If it's good enough to get a NCARB certificate you should be fine. Just do your research first. I'm sure it's all online somehwhere.
As for pro-bono work for the non-profit. That's a different story than model building for some star architect. Assuming a registered Architect would lead the project both for signing the drawings and your IDP hours. Seems a good opportunity to pick up those volunteer hours. Check the rules on that too. Don't you have to be working FT for a number of weeks for IDP hours to apply?
...with architects at somewhere between 40-60% unemployment it seems like wages are going down for us (at least where i'm at) which is absurd. i'd rather spend the next four years becoming a...
Something that I've discussed with colleagues and friends in the field quite frequently. Anyone that's registered has invested a lot of $$$ and time into this profession and it seems crazy to abandon it. However, cost of living has NOT gone down. Taxes are going up, the mortgage is the same, food & energy are up. Big deal if a plasma TV is cheaper, I don't NEED that. End of story, to maintain a standard of living we do need rising wages. Thus when a good friend (working under a 10% paycut) was offered a job as facilities manager for a large corporation, he took it. Pay went from $65k (pre-cut) to over $100k. How could you say no? You know what he says now? He's happier than ever because he can sleep at night not worrying about job security and his wife can stay home with their newborn.
aqua and others.. you can always go back to being an architect later after a little career switch. This may be what I do. I am more than happy to leave the profession to gain some alternate experiences. After all, I don't need more drafting experience, which is about as good as I can get in a firm right now. I can choose to return to the profession when I am 51.8 years old, as that is when I can make a real impact anyways.
The question is how can one still be connected to the architecture profession while in a different career.I believe it is really important to be connected to the profession if you want to or thinking of returning to the profession later. If you completely disconnect yourself from architecture you may not be able to go back because everything is changing rapidly from software to practice.
hate to throw a wrench on this thread, but i just came back from an interview, it went well, but they seemed really disorganized and desperate, could be that they fired everyone and then now they are realizing they f'd up, i could be walking into a shit storm fubar situation.
thanks aquapura for posting that comment- i'm just trying to figure out ways to maximize my experience and education while trying to provide for my family. i LOVE architecture, i really do, and if i were single with no one else to care for but myself i'd be taking some big chances right now. i'm actually making a go of this photography thing on the side right now- it's proving to make me some good side money, i've even booked a wedding. i'm still sort of shocked about that.
@ DisplacedArchitect- congrats on the interview? just be careful what you're walking into!
i guess i have a wrench of my own to throw in here... in the last hour and a half i just got two interviews. both at architecture firms. i'm pretty excited about this... and sad at the same time. i've enjoyed the time home with my son. but i've missed being an "adult" too.
I've also had my time with my one year old son. I just dont know i think i might have also surprised them because i dont think they were expecting to interview someone who can be a Pa, and has had all kinds of experience and travelled.
Parad0x, to answer your question: I plan to stay connected to the architecture community by continuing to understand space and buildings while I build other skills: people, money, management, business and networking skills. I have plenty of firm experience by now, what I need for both personal satisfaction and career advancement is life experience, which I couldn't get sitting in an architect's office all day as a young architect anyway. I am NOT worried about keeping up with software or building technology, because that can be easily learned. Note that if I reenter the profession, it will be as an older well-rounded individual that has lots more to offer than drafting. In other words, if I become an architect again, it will be as a sole proprietor and I would expect to hire out the drafting to an intern. I should also say I wouldn't expect a firm to hire me after a long hiatus, nor would I want to go back to that route.
I am having the same hard time as every new grad out there. Graduated M.Arch last year, and haven't found a job in a firm yet. Had 1 interview recently, and they loved my work, but that I didn't have the "time" in the field. Seriously?!? How the hell else am I going to get the experience? That said, for the moment, I landed a job working for the tax man in california answering taxpayers' f-ed up calls for more than I was making in the last firm I was at. I am just waiting to meet some space planners and knock them off so I can take their state job. Oh, and this could all go down the drain soon, because the governator wants to pay me minimum wage to do my job, only to pay me my back pay later. Ugh, the entire economy is messed up, and my only consolation is that my entire graduating class is basically unemployed also.
melbelle- if you don't mind my asking, where did you graduate from? (not that that has anything to do with finding or not finding a job- i was just curious because i know a lot of students i taught at uva are having a really tough time too) it'd be interesting to know the actual unemployment rate of "recent" (last two years) grads in MArch programs
Its really tough for recent grads to get any job these days, I was lucky enough to graduate in 2006 and worked for 2 years until the economic meltdown, been unemployed since 2008. But at least I have experience in my resume. The worst thing about this is the student loan debt, especially private student loan debt, they don't care if you are unemployment, they want money now! I tried to go to bankruptcy attorney, but turns out student loan debtors cannot get fresh start in this country, the debt is non-dischargable in bankruptcy, unless you are a vegetable with no arms and legs, even then its hard to discharge it, because they just put co-signer on the bill. Anyway, thought of paying so much for my degree and then not working in my field and paying all those student loans just kills me. I think going to arch school was my biggest mistake to date...
“I think going to arch school was my biggest mistake to date...”
Zen I think it is more of a risk than mistake, I’m in the same boat as you are and I am trying to scrape by 60 hours a week min wage or census to just make payments. But frugality and necessity may make you and everyone else in this predicament much more budget and value oriented. What client doesn’t want to have a budget and value oriented person on their team? Grad school is an investment with a lot of risks and given all the info you had you made the best decision you could, it could still pay off in the long run but you have to keep up with the pack and not dwell on past deacons too much. Take what you have and do as much with it as you can, build something, learn something, plant something.
Zen - check out the IBR program - the federal Income Based Repayment plan... you pay your student loans based on your income, for up to 25 years, and what's left is forgiven. If you work for an approved government-type agency, that 25 year can be knocked out in 10 years.
roob - IBR is only for federal loans.
I have more than 60k in private loans that will not accept "no money" for an answer, do not provide any assistance, have no options, and will go after my unemployment compensation...
From PJN26 on 05/28/10- "Whatever you do don’t come to Illinois the governor is going to sign a budget with a 6 billion dollar deficit this year and a 13 Billion dollar deficit for next year with over a Billion owed to the state Universities, there is no way any building can be done with state funds, we can’t even sell an unused prison to the feds at a loss."
PJN26 I live in Chicago and have been unemployed for over a year now. Your statement really hit home for me the need to consider looking at other cities and possibly relocating. Have you, or any others, looked into this? Anyone have any ideas what states are prospering as much as they can these days?
I am 40 years old, married, no kids, and rent an apartment. I graduated in 2008 after leaving being a chef for 14 years, so this is a second career for me. I interned while in school and then worked for 8 months before getting laid-off in Feb. 2009. oh and my wife was laid-off a month after I was (admin. assistant) and is still out of work also.
I am wondering if the cost to be incurred moving to another state for a job is really the wise thing to do, but after considering the state of things here in Illinois getting out of Dodge may be the right thing to do.
40-44%, Really? I've been reading the posts here for the first time since I was in school and was shocked! This is the first I have seen a number put to the current state of the professions unemployment. The pit in my stomach right now is the size of a basketball.
Zen - yes that is true. Private loans usually are not included in IBR. I know they are trying to change that in the program, but for now, no. Sorry, thought the info would help.
PencilPusher I am in a similar situation living in a job market that is going to be one of the last to see recovery, mostly because neighboring states are still poaching all of our work. Stupid Texas.
The idea of relocation for a job sounds nice but it's been a mixed bag of response from potential employers. I think given the overwhelming pool of applicants combined with the persistent instability of the market, most firms are hesitant about hiring someone who needs to relocate as they are not totally confident they will have work for much longer than 6 months. Getting laid off after spending thousands to move somewhere would sting pretty bad.
My friend moved out of country and says its the best decision he has ever made, the rent is super cheap in India for him and collection agencies finally stopped calling him. I think he left US for good, or maybe when his statute of limitations expires he might return debt free.
Got Laid...off in January from my Caribbean gig. Turns out that they blow money faster than Americans. Been working construction & restoring muscle cars/selling them for the last 6 mos.
But....see the Post named "Employment Employment'.....
Pencil - I doubt it - student loans stay with you forever. You have to change your identity (get another SSN); the SSN which is connected with your loans stays there always. I'm sure big brother is reading this and will be knocking at my door soon.... eeek!
Zen - I am curious how your friend coordinated moving to India, found work, speaks the language (or needs to learn?), all that. How does he/she get to work there (a version of 'green card' or 'naturalization' or the like?). I lived in Italy for a year and a half on a student visa, and also worked, and my employer would have sponsored me if I decided to stay (this was 12 years ago), but I had to return to finish my thesis and graduate... trust me, it was a tossup decision!
Anyway, I know that many here leave the States because mounting debts become overwhelming and impossible to escape from (if one stayed here (now, especially with this economic craphole we're in)). Moving to another country is a very logical way to free oneself of these debts.
I know how that sounds - running away from your obligations (BAD) - and, to a certain degree, it is certainly not an ethical way to do things. However, the way the system is set up, you are almost assured to fail - taking out loans to go to school, getting a mortgage and then loosing your job, then loosing your house, using credit cards to eat, etc.
The alternative, I guess, is to live on the street. However, I don't think most of us choose that route. Most are optimistic that things will 'turn around' and risk going into more debt because we think that later money will start comig in again, and we'll be able to pay these debts off.
It's the intent of going into debt, thinking you'll pay it back, vs. intentionally going into debt, knowing you won't pay it back. To me, that's the difference, the INTENT.
North Dakota is where the unemployment is low head west.
Have you ever been to North Dakota?
That is one of the single most depressing places on Earth. And it's really not doing as well as you might think.
Sure, the state isn't taking loses. But North Dakota is now essentially the nation's telemarketing and bill collection call center State.
Mind you, if it's not laws that shelter banks and telemarketers... it could be the fact that North Dakota pulls in billions of dollars from mineral leases. It's kind of easy to have a nice economy when your sharing the wealth of gas and oil production along 600,000 people in a mostly empty state.
People from North Dakota will tell you that the reason North Dakota is so great is because of a "hard farm work ethic" and frugality but they're all basically batshit insane.
And that's really something I should point out twice-- everyone in the state is effing crazy.
Everyone says in those states (ND and the states around them) talk about how great living in a state with small government and low tazes is. Why it is great to live in a state that "espouses the American way of life" and all that.
But the economies of ND... along with other states like Wyoming... is so completely socialized it's not even funny. Both states, and states in the area, all have government-owned and government-run industries, collect heavily from the federal government through public lands management.
While everyone seems to pick on states like New York and California for their various budgetary woes, their debt-to-total-GDP is actually quite low. And while their budget gaps are high, the figures the press reports are the estimated maximum budget gaps.
This is where it is mildly humorous-- the states that last year were the hot new investment states with "stable economies" are circling the drain faster than the spend-heavy states.
Arizona, Neveda, Alaska, the Carolinas, Georgia, Texas, Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, Alabama, Florida, Viriginia are the new failed states this year.
Especially Florida, Texas and Georgia-- who are now skipping pension and bond payments in order to keep hiring new employees are larger salaries while continuing to try to spur construction.
And these states have yet to fix any of the problems from the two prior years. Like Florida still has about 200,000-400,000 houses that are technically-condemned-but-have-yet-to-evict-their-residents over chinese drywall.
But seriously, skipping bond payments in attempt to continue a failed and unsustainable economic model? WHAT THE SHIT IS WRONG WITH YOU?
Last but not least, Georgia and Florida are in real trouble because it seems both states invested money into the credit default swap market to try to cash in. While it is perfectly okay for states to invest money to supplement (or replace) their state's source of income, this is absolutely ridiculous.
Pencil - yes there is statute of limitations on private student loans, not on federal, but I have nothing against federal, the privates are the real killers.
roob - the fact is, US is slowly dying, dragging all its citizens along into a debthole of no escape. My friend is one of the smartest few who fled this dying country to take advantage of new debt free life, sort of an american dream but not in america.
She is staying with her cousin at the moment, but she already has a job in arch-firm there, and a second job teaching english. I think if you plan to move, now is the time, because India and China are heavily funding their education, they spend more than military on education, because they want to break free from outside workers. I think in 10-15 years, they will be completely self-sufficient, no more need for starchitects and big corporate firms from US to build their cities, they will have their own capable architects very soon. And when this happens, America will be isolated from the rest of the world, it will not be as powerful anymore, it will be a land of the debt, not a land of the free...
Zen - I kinda wanted to say that, but some on here are die-hard believers in this 'American' dream thing. Nothing wrong with that dream, except that it's impossible now, here. I hope I'm wrong, but the way the monied elites are fleecing the 'little people' in this country, and that we allow it to happen, pretty much seals the deal to what you say. Your friend is quite smart. I've been thinking about leaving (again, and for good) for quite a number of years now.
the G20 summit world leaders agreed to a controversial goal of cutting government deficits in half by 2013. We speak with journalist Naomi Klein. "What actually happened at the summit is that the global elites just stuck the bill for their drunken binge with the world’s poor, with the people that are most vulnerable," Klein says.
G20 Leaders Agree to Cut Government Deficits in Half by 2013
Inside the G20 summit, world leaders agreed to a controversial goal of cutting government deficits in half by 2013. Economists say such a move could usher in sizable tax increases and massive cuts in government programs, including benefit programs such as Social Security and Medicare. The Nobel laureate economist Joseph Stiglitz criticized the G20 agreement, saying, "There are almost no successful cases of countries cutting back on their expenditures as a way of getting out of the kind of economic downturn." Meanwhile, world leaders at the G20 failed to come to an agreement on setting new global rules for big banks or imposing a new across-the-board global bank tax.
i <3 democracy now and naomi klein.
what is funny is that after they air that here in DC there's a radio show called "community commentary" that comes on after it, and everyone was talking about how dumb expensive the G20 meeting is. so someone called and said:
"why did they need to spend $1.2billion to have a ridiculous G20 summit? do you know what my company does when we need to have a meeting and it's too expensive to get everyone together? we have a conference call."
go get your residential builders license and pickup some tools... you can still design and build your work just on a smaller scale...might also learn a thing or two....
good luck folks... just need to open your eyes a bit and look else where for work....and as i said before, you have ti 'hustle'... some folks dont like that term, but at the end of the day, it's about the dollar bill and moving ahead...
I think capitalism is not working anymore, or is it something else now, did capitalism die, and we are entering a new era of some kind of evolved capitalism where middle class is the punching bag?
“As it is the power of exchanging that gives occasion to the division of labour, so the extent of this division must always be limited by the extent of that power, or, in other words, by the extent of the market.”
book I, chapter III of Wealth of Nations 1776
When supply exceeds demand, all hell breaks loose.
Milton Friedman
i was going to say something about marx's theory of history and tendency of capitalism to create a two class society but it looks like seed beat me to it.
it's nice to see smith and marx pop up on this forum. almost academic!
labor. Such persistence and willingness to change tactics and
learn lessons along the way is what U.S. Social Forum
attendees - who converged in Detroit this week to share
countless struggles and highlight the links between them
- say is needed to move toward a better world.
Much like the worker run factories i am reminded of McNeel and Associates who is doing well in these times releasing a new version of Rhinoceros each week,
Actually, what we are experiencing is nothing new in this country. In the 1870-90's there were the industrialists and robber barons who bought congress, judges, controlled the media (yellow jornalism), and made it so they could 'rape' the land, and the people, as much as possible. Sound familiar? Only difference is 1) the 'yellow' media reaches many more people (there are many more people to 'reach'), 2) pre & post WWII we actually created a middle class for the first time. Before, a 'middle' class wasn't heard of.
Many, from a certain perspective, now days are calling the principals to middle-class ideals "Socialism." The word 'Socialism' was thrown around in the 19th century, used as another propaganda tactic to scare the 'average' person into believing that their freedom would be taken away by the government. Sound familar?
Since the media is controlled by the elites, seems all you hear is the cry "Socialist, Marxist, Maoist..." etc., by this elite minority, usually dressed up to look like 'one of us.' Because 'they' own the podium, they control what you hear and read. Anyone who has spent any time in another country, reading and listening to the news in that country, will tell you that the news we get here is censored.
Truly, the majority of people in this country hold dear middle class principals, and yet, at the same time, some believe in the rhetoric this elite class throws at them. The fight isn't about 'Capitalism' or 'Socialism' or 'whateverism,' it's about the elite dictating our government to give favor to their interests, above and beyond what the people desire and need. At the same time, through propaganda, the elites split the people through partisaian beliefs; Democrat, Republican, Teaparty, Libertarian, and create phony arguments that further split us up. A house divided cannot stand.
We all need to put aside our differences, and realize that the true 'enemy' is this elite. Only when we come together en mass, forcing our government to represent US and not the monied/corporate interests, will we see any change in this country.
roob - I agree with you, the elites control this country and probably the world.
They created the middle class, because its unsafe to have a mob of poor running around. They take away 30% of our income in order to keep us in the same class forever. They only take 11% of income from the rich or people who earn above $1.5million/year, if regular people knew that there would probably be another revolution, but the poor like to complain that they earn a lot and 11% of tax is a lot! But still, we the middle class pay almost triple the tax, this is meant to be so to keep us in the unescapable debt sinkhole and in the same class.
What I find really funny is that many people believe that we are living in true capitalism and yet they give away 30% of their income for the government to distribute among the poor, to fund wars, and to do whatever they wish, tell me its not distribution of wealth, then what is distribution of wealth? What kind of capitalism is that where 30% of our livelyhoods is being taken away from every paycheck? There is no equality, the rich should pay same tax % as the middle class, they will still be rich anyway, they are filthy rich.
hay people Taking the gold, raping and pillaging the poor, hasn't this been happening on a grand scale here in the new world for like 500 years? now you have an idea of how it felt like when Spain invaded, tortured and plundered everyone in what is now Mexico, they could get their hands on then said "Give me all of your gold" 100% of it. I wont even get into what happened a few miles to the north. Were all cavemen hunter gatherers. Life sucks that way.
Layoffs....layoffs......
holz, many law schools will give loan relief if their grads go into public interest law or otherwise work for a not-for-profit.. that might be a way out of debtors' prison for some of them.
i'm not going to stop trying to be an architect. i have two arch degrees (professional and post-professional) and taking ARE's now. i LOVE architecture. i'm not going to toot my own horn, but maybe i should for a change dammit- i've won design awards, i've excelled in my profession, and yet here i still am- unemployed. but perhaps an old saying i once heard is ringing true- "make what you love your hobby, not your career".
what is so grim to me, is that i have about 40 more years in the workforce. it will take me approximately 3-4 years to finish law school and my son won't have even entered the first grade yet. in that time frame, even as a licensed architect i won't be making six figures- if i'd EVER make six figures- but yet i could as a lawyer. plus i would have my arch license in addition. everything you learned in architecture school - including defending a thesis- is a very valid skillset for law school. i see the chances as a lawyer MUCH brighter than that in the architecture profession. i have connections to get into law school, and for funding which doesn't include loans. i found out if you go to law school full time you finish in 3 years, part time is 4 years. well shoot... that leaves me with 36 years left to be a lawyer and earn more money in one year than would take me to earn in FOUR as an architect.
i guess i'm thinking more about my future and my family and less about just doing architecture because i'm passionate about it. i'm at a crossroads, and i'm not going to leave my future all to chance.
good luck to all of you.
I was thinking about getting a degree in Psychology so I can be a counselor, if people are not spending money on new homes or renovations they might be a little depressed and need someone to assure them they are all right. I figure the two professions Architecture and psychology are often in demand at different ends of economic fluctuations.
psychology is about the one profession I can think of that's both more unstable and just as low-paying (if not more) than architecture.
So from the sound of it, we should all just get off the grid and burn all our remaining cash a-la "Into The Wild"?
Starting to sound like that recent South Park episode about the ECONOMY!
thats why the economy is so messed up rich folks are not spending or investing as much as they used to, not because there is no money! so tell all your rich republican buddies to start investing, fund an up and coming office like displacedarchitects and assoc. or something
Fuck it. Be an engineer or computer scientist. Everyone needs those.
I think the times of lawyers making big bucks are over, they are in the same shithole now as architects, well maybe, not as bad, but they are not getting that much income nowdays as they used to in old days...
yea i heard one lawyers lecture, he said he only makes 540 Dollares an hour, not as much as the good ol days, although new lawyers graduating are the ones having trouble establishing themselves.
you're not going to find a profession that has been untouched where not a single person has been laid off. (except for maybe plumbers?) so yeah there's arguments for this and against that- but i've spent just as much time, effort, and money to become an architect and with architects at somewhere between 40-60% unemployment it seems like wages are going down for us (at least where i'm at) which is absurd. i'd rather spend the next four years becoming a lawyer because even if i earn HALF of what they earn right now it would still be twice as much or more than what i'd earn as an architect.
yes, i know, everything is not about money... but to be realistic, i can't afford to do everything for free. and if i get one more damned email from the AIA about volunteering for this or speaking for free for that i'm going to explode.
Not too much traffic here lately, maybe it is the nice weather or things are stabilizing. I’m still not working professionally and now that the census job is winding down I am facing the fact that I have to budget. An interesting exercise to do is figure out how many hours of minimum wage work a week you need to do to break even until this crisis becomes a recovery. For me living in central IL it was 52 hours a week. That includes paying student loans, debts and other “living” expenses. Another thing I discovered is this nifty tax calculator if you are considering an offer it may help you see what your potential take home pay could be.
http://www.yourmoneypage.com/withhold/il2.php
Not sure how accurate it is but it could be useful in estimating.
Summer is here and now is the optimum time to reconnect with your college or university and get appointments with career counselors and faculty who can help you tweak your resume, and or advise you on skills to work on. Second opinions are always useful and for most of us this is a free service.
Has anyone opened up a stand at a local farmer’s market? I might be starting one in the next few weeks it just cost $10 per market day, I will keep you posted how it goes.
Now a question that may spark a debate;
Is it fair and or wise to try and assemble a team for a pro-bono project for a non-for-profit that has limited resources? The way I see it is I / we get experience and IDP training units and a worthy cause gets a building renovated to bring it up to code so they can stay open. I know working for a firm for free is a bad idea but is building a project team to service a client with no means to pay ethical if the people involved are gaining IDP units and keeping their skills up-to-date. This has been a difficult quandary and I’m not sure what to do, stipulate a modest fee and not do the project at all or work for free or next to free and gain the experience necessary to qualify for NCARB registration. Myself and a few others are about 300 hours away from having the IDP done and the green light for NCARB registration, I know you can take the ARE early but in some states you are going to run into problems with reciprocity if you did not finish the IDP program first. Perhaps I’m misinformed on this.
Discussion and information is all I ask.
Over and OUT
PJN26
"Not too much traffic here lately, maybe it is the nice weather or things are stabilizing."
It seems like offices are letting people go but they aren't exactly hiring either and it's not really showing much promise that situation is going to change anytime soon. I'm starting to face the grim reality that this might as good as it gets.
I'm not sure the specific rules but passing the ARE's and finishing IDP, regardless of order completed, is still the same amount of work/accomplishment. If it's good enough to get a NCARB certificate you should be fine. Just do your research first. I'm sure it's all online somehwhere.
As for pro-bono work for the non-profit. That's a different story than model building for some star architect. Assuming a registered Architect would lead the project both for signing the drawings and your IDP hours. Seems a good opportunity to pick up those volunteer hours. Check the rules on that too. Don't you have to be working FT for a number of weeks for IDP hours to apply?
...with architects at somewhere between 40-60% unemployment it seems like wages are going down for us (at least where i'm at) which is absurd. i'd rather spend the next four years becoming a...
Something that I've discussed with colleagues and friends in the field quite frequently. Anyone that's registered has invested a lot of $$$ and time into this profession and it seems crazy to abandon it. However, cost of living has NOT gone down. Taxes are going up, the mortgage is the same, food & energy are up. Big deal if a plasma TV is cheaper, I don't NEED that. End of story, to maintain a standard of living we do need rising wages. Thus when a good friend (working under a 10% paycut) was offered a job as facilities manager for a large corporation, he took it. Pay went from $65k (pre-cut) to over $100k. How could you say no? You know what he says now? He's happier than ever because he can sleep at night not worrying about job security and his wife can stay home with their newborn.
aqua and others.. you can always go back to being an architect later after a little career switch. This may be what I do. I am more than happy to leave the profession to gain some alternate experiences. After all, I don't need more drafting experience, which is about as good as I can get in a firm right now. I can choose to return to the profession when I am 51.8 years old, as that is when I can make a real impact anyways.
The question is how can one still be connected to the architecture profession while in a different career.I believe it is really important to be connected to the profession if you want to or thinking of returning to the profession later. If you completely disconnect yourself from architecture you may not be able to go back because everything is changing rapidly from software to practice.
hate to throw a wrench on this thread, but i just came back from an interview, it went well, but they seemed really disorganized and desperate, could be that they fired everyone and then now they are realizing they f'd up, i could be walking into a shit storm fubar situation.
thanks aquapura for posting that comment- i'm just trying to figure out ways to maximize my experience and education while trying to provide for my family. i LOVE architecture, i really do, and if i were single with no one else to care for but myself i'd be taking some big chances right now. i'm actually making a go of this photography thing on the side right now- it's proving to make me some good side money, i've even booked a wedding. i'm still sort of shocked about that.
@ DisplacedArchitect- congrats on the interview? just be careful what you're walking into!
i guess i have a wrench of my own to throw in here... in the last hour and a half i just got two interviews. both at architecture firms. i'm pretty excited about this... and sad at the same time. i've enjoyed the time home with my son. but i've missed being an "adult" too.
like wise congrats on you 2 interviews!
I've also had my time with my one year old son. I just dont know i think i might have also surprised them because i dont think they were expecting to interview someone who can be a Pa, and has had all kinds of experience and travelled.
Parad0x, to answer your question: I plan to stay connected to the architecture community by continuing to understand space and buildings while I build other skills: people, money, management, business and networking skills. I have plenty of firm experience by now, what I need for both personal satisfaction and career advancement is life experience, which I couldn't get sitting in an architect's office all day as a young architect anyway. I am NOT worried about keeping up with software or building technology, because that can be easily learned. Note that if I reenter the profession, it will be as an older well-rounded individual that has lots more to offer than drafting. In other words, if I become an architect again, it will be as a sole proprietor and I would expect to hire out the drafting to an intern. I should also say I wouldn't expect a firm to hire me after a long hiatus, nor would I want to go back to that route.
I am having the same hard time as every new grad out there. Graduated M.Arch last year, and haven't found a job in a firm yet. Had 1 interview recently, and they loved my work, but that I didn't have the "time" in the field. Seriously?!? How the hell else am I going to get the experience? That said, for the moment, I landed a job working for the tax man in california answering taxpayers' f-ed up calls for more than I was making in the last firm I was at. I am just waiting to meet some space planners and knock them off so I can take their state job. Oh, and this could all go down the drain soon, because the governator wants to pay me minimum wage to do my job, only to pay me my back pay later. Ugh, the entire economy is messed up, and my only consolation is that my entire graduating class is basically unemployed also.
melbelle- if you don't mind my asking, where did you graduate from? (not that that has anything to do with finding or not finding a job- i was just curious because i know a lot of students i taught at uva are having a really tough time too) it'd be interesting to know the actual unemployment rate of "recent" (last two years) grads in MArch programs
Its really tough for recent grads to get any job these days, I was lucky enough to graduate in 2006 and worked for 2 years until the economic meltdown, been unemployed since 2008. But at least I have experience in my resume. The worst thing about this is the student loan debt, especially private student loan debt, they don't care if you are unemployment, they want money now! I tried to go to bankruptcy attorney, but turns out student loan debtors cannot get fresh start in this country, the debt is non-dischargable in bankruptcy, unless you are a vegetable with no arms and legs, even then its hard to discharge it, because they just put co-signer on the bill. Anyway, thought of paying so much for my degree and then not working in my field and paying all those student loans just kills me. I think going to arch school was my biggest mistake to date...
“I think going to arch school was my biggest mistake to date...”
Zen I think it is more of a risk than mistake, I’m in the same boat as you are and I am trying to scrape by 60 hours a week min wage or census to just make payments. But frugality and necessity may make you and everyone else in this predicament much more budget and value oriented. What client doesn’t want to have a budget and value oriented person on their team? Grad school is an investment with a lot of risks and given all the info you had you made the best decision you could, it could still pay off in the long run but you have to keep up with the pack and not dwell on past deacons too much. Take what you have and do as much with it as you can, build something, learn something, plant something.
Zen - check out the IBR program - the federal Income Based Repayment plan... you pay your student loans based on your income, for up to 25 years, and what's left is forgiven. If you work for an approved government-type agency, that 25 year can be knocked out in 10 years.
www.ibrinfo.org
roob - IBR is only for federal loans.
I have more than 60k in private loans that will not accept "no money" for an answer, do not provide any assistance, have no options, and will go after my unemployment compensation...
From PJN26 on 05/28/10- "Whatever you do don’t come to Illinois the governor is going to sign a budget with a 6 billion dollar deficit this year and a 13 Billion dollar deficit for next year with over a Billion owed to the state Universities, there is no way any building can be done with state funds, we can’t even sell an unused prison to the feds at a loss."
PJN26 I live in Chicago and have been unemployed for over a year now. Your statement really hit home for me the need to consider looking at other cities and possibly relocating. Have you, or any others, looked into this? Anyone have any ideas what states are prospering as much as they can these days?
I am 40 years old, married, no kids, and rent an apartment. I graduated in 2008 after leaving being a chef for 14 years, so this is a second career for me. I interned while in school and then worked for 8 months before getting laid-off in Feb. 2009. oh and my wife was laid-off a month after I was (admin. assistant) and is still out of work also.
I am wondering if the cost to be incurred moving to another state for a job is really the wise thing to do, but after considering the state of things here in Illinois getting out of Dodge may be the right thing to do.
40-44%, Really? I've been reading the posts here for the first time since I was in school and was shocked! This is the first I have seen a number put to the current state of the professions unemployment. The pit in my stomach right now is the size of a basketball.
Zen - yes that is true. Private loans usually are not included in IBR. I know they are trying to change that in the program, but for now, no. Sorry, thought the info would help.
New York, Florida, California MA CT NJ and Nevada are not doing well. North Dakota is where the unemployment is low head west.
PencilPusher I am in a similar situation living in a job market that is going to be one of the last to see recovery, mostly because neighboring states are still poaching all of our work. Stupid Texas.
The idea of relocation for a job sounds nice but it's been a mixed bag of response from potential employers. I think given the overwhelming pool of applicants combined with the persistent instability of the market, most firms are hesitant about hiring someone who needs to relocate as they are not totally confident they will have work for much longer than 6 months. Getting laid off after spending thousands to move somewhere would sting pretty bad.
My friend moved out of country and says its the best decision he has ever made, the rent is super cheap in India for him and collection agencies finally stopped calling him. I think he left US for good, or maybe when his statute of limitations expires he might return debt free.
Zen Maker is there a statue of limitation on student loans?
Got Laid...off in January from my Caribbean gig. Turns out that they blow money faster than Americans. Been working construction & restoring muscle cars/selling them for the last 6 mos.
But....see the Post named "Employment Employment'.....
Pencil - I doubt it - student loans stay with you forever. You have to change your identity (get another SSN); the SSN which is connected with your loans stays there always. I'm sure big brother is reading this and will be knocking at my door soon.... eeek!
Zen - I am curious how your friend coordinated moving to India, found work, speaks the language (or needs to learn?), all that. How does he/she get to work there (a version of 'green card' or 'naturalization' or the like?). I lived in Italy for a year and a half on a student visa, and also worked, and my employer would have sponsored me if I decided to stay (this was 12 years ago), but I had to return to finish my thesis and graduate... trust me, it was a tossup decision!
Anyway, I know that many here leave the States because mounting debts become overwhelming and impossible to escape from (if one stayed here (now, especially with this economic craphole we're in)). Moving to another country is a very logical way to free oneself of these debts.
I know how that sounds - running away from your obligations (BAD) - and, to a certain degree, it is certainly not an ethical way to do things. However, the way the system is set up, you are almost assured to fail - taking out loans to go to school, getting a mortgage and then loosing your job, then loosing your house, using credit cards to eat, etc.
The alternative, I guess, is to live on the street. However, I don't think most of us choose that route. Most are optimistic that things will 'turn around' and risk going into more debt because we think that later money will start comig in again, and we'll be able to pay these debts off.
It's the intent of going into debt, thinking you'll pay it back, vs. intentionally going into debt, knowing you won't pay it back. To me, that's the difference, the INTENT.
Have you ever been to North Dakota?
That is one of the single most depressing places on Earth. And it's really not doing as well as you might think.
Sure, the state isn't taking loses. But North Dakota is now essentially the nation's telemarketing and bill collection call center State.
Mind you, if it's not laws that shelter banks and telemarketers... it could be the fact that North Dakota pulls in billions of dollars from mineral leases. It's kind of easy to have a nice economy when your sharing the wealth of gas and oil production along 600,000 people in a mostly empty state.
People from North Dakota will tell you that the reason North Dakota is so great is because of a "hard farm work ethic" and frugality but they're all basically batshit insane.
And that's really something I should point out twice-- everyone in the state is effing crazy.
Everyone says in those states (ND and the states around them) talk about how great living in a state with small government and low tazes is. Why it is great to live in a state that "espouses the American way of life" and all that.
But the economies of ND... along with other states like Wyoming... is so completely socialized it's not even funny. Both states, and states in the area, all have government-owned and government-run industries, collect heavily from the federal government through public lands management.
While everyone seems to pick on states like New York and California for their various budgetary woes, their debt-to-total-GDP is actually quite low. And while their budget gaps are high, the figures the press reports are the estimated maximum budget gaps.
This is where it is mildly humorous-- the states that last year were the hot new investment states with "stable economies" are circling the drain faster than the spend-heavy states.
Arizona, Neveda, Alaska, the Carolinas, Georgia, Texas, Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, Alabama, Florida, Viriginia are the new failed states this year.
Especially Florida, Texas and Georgia-- who are now skipping pension and bond payments in order to keep hiring new employees are larger salaries while continuing to try to spur construction.
And these states have yet to fix any of the problems from the two prior years. Like Florida still has about 200,000-400,000 houses that are technically-condemned-but-have-yet-to-evict-their-residents over chinese drywall.
But seriously, skipping bond payments in attempt to continue a failed and unsustainable economic model? WHAT THE SHIT IS WRONG WITH YOU?
Last but not least, Georgia and Florida are in real trouble because it seems both states invested money into the credit default swap market to try to cash in. While it is perfectly okay for states to invest money to supplement (or replace) their state's source of income, this is absolutely ridiculous.
Unicorn- oh yes... tell it! You've only tipped the iceburg here... This is gonna be with us for quite some time... and really, will never be the same.
Pencil - yes there is statute of limitations on private student loans, not on federal, but I have nothing against federal, the privates are the real killers.
roob - the fact is, US is slowly dying, dragging all its citizens along into a debthole of no escape. My friend is one of the smartest few who fled this dying country to take advantage of new debt free life, sort of an american dream but not in america.
She is staying with her cousin at the moment, but she already has a job in arch-firm there, and a second job teaching english. I think if you plan to move, now is the time, because India and China are heavily funding their education, they spend more than military on education, because they want to break free from outside workers. I think in 10-15 years, they will be completely self-sufficient, no more need for starchitects and big corporate firms from US to build their cities, they will have their own capable architects very soon. And when this happens, America will be isolated from the rest of the world, it will not be as powerful anymore, it will be a land of the debt, not a land of the free...
Zen - I kinda wanted to say that, but some on here are die-hard believers in this 'American' dream thing. Nothing wrong with that dream, except that it's impossible now, here. I hope I'm wrong, but the way the monied elites are fleecing the 'little people' in this country, and that we allow it to happen, pretty much seals the deal to what you say. Your friend is quite smart. I've been thinking about leaving (again, and for good) for quite a number of years now.
All one need do is look at the results of g20
the G20 summit world leaders agreed to a controversial goal of cutting government deficits in half by 2013. We speak with journalist Naomi Klein. "What actually happened at the summit is that the global elites just stuck the bill for their drunken binge with the world’s poor, with the people that are most vulnerable," Klein says.http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/28/naomi_klein_the_real_crime_scene
G20 Leaders Agree to Cut Government Deficits in Half by 2013
Inside the G20 summit, world leaders agreed to a controversial goal of cutting government deficits in half by 2013. Economists say such a move could usher in sizable tax increases and massive cuts in government programs, including benefit programs such as Social Security and Medicare. The Nobel laureate economist Joseph Stiglitz criticized the G20 agreement, saying, "There are almost no successful cases of countries cutting back on their expenditures as a way of getting out of the kind of economic downturn." Meanwhile, world leaders at the G20 failed to come to an agreement on setting new global rules for big banks or imposing a new across-the-board global bank tax.
i <3 democracy now and naomi klein.
what is funny is that after they air that here in DC there's a radio show called "community commentary" that comes on after it, and everyone was talking about how dumb expensive the G20 meeting is. so someone called and said:
"why did they need to spend $1.2billion to have a ridiculous G20 summit? do you know what my company does when we need to have a meeting and it's too expensive to get everyone together? we have a conference call."
unicorn....you from NODAK?
go get your residential builders license and pickup some tools... you can still design and build your work just on a smaller scale...might also learn a thing or two....
good luck folks... just need to open your eyes a bit and look else where for work....and as i said before, you have ti 'hustle'... some folks dont like that term, but at the end of the day, it's about the dollar bill and moving ahead...
I think capitalism is not working anymore, or is it something else now, did capitalism die, and we are entering a new era of some kind of evolved capitalism where middle class is the punching bag?
Democracy is the road to socialism.
Karl Marx
I think Adam Smith put his finger on the problem:
“As it is the power of exchanging that gives occasion to the division of labour, so the extent of this division must always be limited by the extent of that power, or, in other words, by the extent of the market.”
book I, chapter III of Wealth of Nations 1776
When supply exceeds demand, all hell breaks loose.
Milton Friedman
i was going to say something about marx's theory of history and tendency of capitalism to create a two class society but it looks like seed beat me to it.
it's nice to see smith and marx pop up on this forum. almost academic!
a report from the outcome of the US social Forum
http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/6149/hashing_out_a_labor_platform_at_the_u.s._social_forum/
labor. Such persistence and willingness to change tactics and
learn lessons along the way is what U.S. Social Forum
attendees - who converged in Detroit this week to share
countless struggles and highlight the links between them
- say is needed to move toward a better world.
Much like the worker run factories i am reminded of McNeel and Associates who is doing well in these times releasing a new version of Rhinoceros each week,
http://download.rhino3d.com/rhino/5.0/wip/
Actually, what we are experiencing is nothing new in this country. In the 1870-90's there were the industrialists and robber barons who bought congress, judges, controlled the media (yellow jornalism), and made it so they could 'rape' the land, and the people, as much as possible. Sound familiar? Only difference is 1) the 'yellow' media reaches many more people (there are many more people to 'reach'), 2) pre & post WWII we actually created a middle class for the first time. Before, a 'middle' class wasn't heard of.
Many, from a certain perspective, now days are calling the principals to middle-class ideals "Socialism." The word 'Socialism' was thrown around in the 19th century, used as another propaganda tactic to scare the 'average' person into believing that their freedom would be taken away by the government. Sound familar?
Since the media is controlled by the elites, seems all you hear is the cry "Socialist, Marxist, Maoist..." etc., by this elite minority, usually dressed up to look like 'one of us.' Because 'they' own the podium, they control what you hear and read. Anyone who has spent any time in another country, reading and listening to the news in that country, will tell you that the news we get here is censored.
Truly, the majority of people in this country hold dear middle class principals, and yet, at the same time, some believe in the rhetoric this elite class throws at them. The fight isn't about 'Capitalism' or 'Socialism' or 'whateverism,' it's about the elite dictating our government to give favor to their interests, above and beyond what the people desire and need. At the same time, through propaganda, the elites split the people through partisaian beliefs; Democrat, Republican, Teaparty, Libertarian, and create phony arguments that further split us up. A house divided cannot stand.
We all need to put aside our differences, and realize that the true 'enemy' is this elite. Only when we come together en mass, forcing our government to represent US and not the monied/corporate interests, will we see any change in this country.
so long as we let fiat money and the corporation exist we are all slaves and abolition has never truly happened.
roob - I agree with you, the elites control this country and probably the world.
They created the middle class, because its unsafe to have a mob of poor running around. They take away 30% of our income in order to keep us in the same class forever. They only take 11% of income from the rich or people who earn above $1.5million/year, if regular people knew that there would probably be another revolution, but the poor like to complain that they earn a lot and 11% of tax is a lot! But still, we the middle class pay almost triple the tax, this is meant to be so to keep us in the unescapable debt sinkhole and in the same class.
What I find really funny is that many people believe that we are living in true capitalism and yet they give away 30% of their income for the government to distribute among the poor, to fund wars, and to do whatever they wish, tell me its not distribution of wealth, then what is distribution of wealth? What kind of capitalism is that where 30% of our livelyhoods is being taken away from every paycheck? There is no equality, the rich should pay same tax % as the middle class, they will still be rich anyway, they are filthy rich.
hay people Taking the gold, raping and pillaging the poor, hasn't this been happening on a grand scale here in the new world for like 500 years? now you have an idea of how it felt like when Spain invaded, tortured and plundered everyone in what is now Mexico, they could get their hands on then said "Give me all of your gold" 100% of it. I wont even get into what happened a few miles to the north. Were all cavemen hunter gatherers. Life sucks that way.
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