Donna, I have read most everything you have written on this subject and you make a lot of sense. You should really consider writing a Blog here on helping women dress in the profession. Not long ago I wrote something on Reddit on women in architecture and I just hinted at some of your ideas and they came at me like a pack of Feral Cats. I think the women’s fashion industry creates too many choices for women and it’s hard to get it right. It’s not a matter of dressing like a man it’s a matter of dressing like an architect. Your handbag is exactly the type of thing that I’m suggesting. Men or women your ideas about accessories are spot on.
Archanonymous, your idea of buying good lightly used on ebay is smart. A $1,000. suite looks like $1,000. suite regardless what you pay for it. You bring up another vital ingredient – tailoring. I think they have great long sleeve sport shirts that are good for work with or without a jacket but only come sm-med-lg and unless you are a perfect shape - you buy the size that fits around you and the sleeves are always too long. Same on dress shirts, if you are big you get the neck size that fits but can never find the correct corresponding sleeve length. It is an additional expense but necessary to look right - get them shortened…it’s not that much, men’s fashion doesn’t change and if you buy enough shirts they can last 2-3 years. Because of my size and position I bought custom made suites and shirts (had to) and it improved my overweight appearance remarkably…this is important for people who have a weight problem. I once had a client say to me (with a bit of a laugh) that the reason he hired me was that he liked the way I dressed…laugh if you will - but he said it.
Whatever you wear make sure you're comfortable in it. Fancy dress can make you feel uptight. I'd rather be the only guy in jeans and a T-shirt in a room full of suits than vice versa.
Never wear black; it is a very tired cliche. Besides Jean Nouvel has a patent on the color. He will send his black-clad, shaved head "associates" to pay you a visit.
Sneaky, thanks for the suggestion, looked them up and is a good source…read they use AutoCAD to cut their patterns, reason enough for us to buy there. They are now starting a shirt-club of sorts offering custom shirts by mail-order to keep up your supply. I used Shirt Creations out of Brooklyn for years for my shirts and was very satisfied. Switched to Charles Tyrwhitt – London in the last few years and found the British fabrics and tailoring provide a unique style that fits-the-look – and you don’t see yourself coming. Charles Tyrwhitt is a full line store and has women’s clothes and the stuff arrives in a flash at your doorstep. Proper Suit does in-person fitting and the other two you do your own…the list of measurements you input is pretty thorough and I’ve been very satisfied with the fits.
Richard, wearing what it is appropriate changes of course….can’t tell you how many times I’ve gotten nail-snagged at a jobsite, our business can be hard on clothes. We should have locker rooms…meeting with a client in the AM and getting dragged to a job site in the PM.
Following Miles’ analogy on coats and T-shirts I find it interesting who flinches first in those situations. I know things are super casual today but I almost always throw a jacket on over my polo because I think it makes be look better – being self conscious of my weight. I always know what will happen - it never fails….Just went to a high school get-together-cocktail party at a local restaurant and walked in that way and the first guy that I walked up to said “Hey, what’s with the jacket?” I looked him up-and-down and he was wearing a pair of those chunking leather sandals (bare feet), a pair of cargo shorts and a polo – he flinched not me. There were many dressed like him in the room but I also thought later that I’m still an architect and they all know I am and still looking the part shows respect for my profession – always better to dress-up than down.
I hear you. One thing is I don't do site visits on a job site at the same time I am doing meetings. If I were to, I would be disclaiming up front with the client that I will be wearing clothes suitable for going through crawl spaces and other such spaces. Initial meeting, I would wear a jacket/dress shirt and dress pants and only a limited site visit around the site to capture some photos. I would come back to the site later for doing measurements and other work in clothes suitable for doing that such.
Most clients will understand that you don't go through crawl spacesand cob web infested attics in your "Sunday best" or suits. Always dress for the context of the occassion. Exactly. We don't always have the opportunity for a locker room.
Richard, like the ad on Houzz, having a picture of yourself is smart – been told by marketing experts that including a picture brings more responses statistically.
Would consider dropping the words Exemption from your Building Design Services list, too soon in the ad and is confusing to laypeople, better to apply the asterisk to each and let them read the footnote at the bottom.
Sep 10, 14 2:55 pm ·
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Yep, will work on that. The site/pages will be worked on over the next several months which includes a logo that I am working on. It's all to be worked on. I agree, the wording of exemption can be complicated.
Sep 10, 14 2:59 pm ·
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Thanks for the suggestion. I also did a minor tweak to the footnote at the bottom to correct the wordage a little bit.
I removed the repetitious usage of the word 'exempt'.
Ladies, what kind of image are you selling when you show up to work wearing what could pass as a leotard and tutu, complete with platform heels? You want your clients, and coworkers for that matter, to want to work with you, not date you.
Sep 11, 14 10:38 am ·
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I don't know where you are wanting to go with this one. I do understand that our job (be it an employee of a business or owner of a business) is not the place to be getting in the sack with clients or co-workers. Personal relationships are to be carried out on personal time not at work or at the client's. It is unprofessional conduct.
Women should not be dressing with the subliminal message of "Take me to bed" when it comes to carrying out professional activities (as employees, owners/principals, etc.). Therefore, women should dress professionally including certain dinner activities of the business where you are representing the business you are employed or is a owner (or the owner) of.
Similarly, the same goes with men.
The bottom line is dressing professional because that is what you are and the message you want to communicate. Dressing professional is context of the occassion dependent. Dressing properly for the particular occassion. You don't dress in a suit and tie if you are going to be crawling in crawl spaces or otherwise. You dress appropriately.
A professional takes consideration of the occassion, who the client is as to what level of clothing is going to be comfortable with the client as you don't want to cause discomfort to the client. If it's a meeting, you may want to be dressing professionally just like lawyers and other professionals that are taken seriously if you want to be taken seriously.
Dress like a teenager and you'll be treated like one.
Dress like a slut/whore/lady of the night and you'll be treated like one. Don't convey the wrong subliminal message is an important factor in dressing professionally.
Dress like a slut/whore/lady of the night and you'll be treated like one.
You know, you can take this assumption straight to the trash. The corollary is also true: If a woman is not dressed professionally it is her coworkers'/business associates' responsibility to treat her with professional respect anyway. Period. Why? Because professionalism doesn't only flow in one direction.
People who judge others by how they choose to decorate and cover their bodies are fools. I would not mind an employee wearing a tutu, as long as she or he does her or his job. I even bet that that individual would be more enjoyable to work with than any stiff who thinks people ought to dress to their "standards".
Sep 11, 14 1:45 pm ·
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Professionalism should flow both ways. Reality is, human nature doesn't work that way. However, how is it possible for a 18 to 25 year old intern if model figure dressed in a bikini and g-string going to not be distractive to the work place or other highly sexualized clothing that clearly is drawing attention to the boobs and just below the waist area?
The work place isn't about finding a guy to date and get in bed. The only reason for dressing that way is about sex and getting laid. That's not what a workplace if for.
This is what I would expect:
This is akin to what I would expect. Some cases, a little more casual but not too much. I expect men to wear the male business attire appropriate for a professional office enviroment.
Another example:
I don't expect to see this in the work space:
Work place is not a night club.
Sep 11, 14 2:37 pm ·
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My main point is that we don't dress in a manner that conveys the wrong impression.
Sorry but this is the real world we are talking about not a fantasy ideal world (that will never exist) where everyone is going to provide two-way professionalism. Some will but most won't just like it has been since the beginning of the human race.
by the way, anyone who is not unfit for the position they hold or not hopelessly stupid can tell the lady in the last picture is wearing a sportcoat of the finest material....
Sep 11, 14 3:13 pm ·
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Yeah but we don't live and operate on pure fantasy but remember how long it took to abolish slavery which still is fashionable in most of the world.
My point is, U.S. isn't an ideal place. We still have biases, discrimination, etc. There isn't eough clients and projects for us to be too picky and expecting everyone to be magically ideal.
There is still biases and every client is an interview and when you are an employee... every day at work is an interview. Every day is your name, impression people have of you and so forth is at stake.
Clothing is just one element. Do you want to present the image that will mean you get on the next lay off notice or clients not hiring you.
As professionals, we aren't suppose to be hitting on our client or client's spouse. Right ?
^--- in the real world, richard balkins tells women how to dress. that's how it works.
Exactly, curt.
Yep. And he can't control it when he stares at a woman's butt when she's walking away no matter how she's dressed because that's just the way it works.
Seriously, Richard: if you're in enough control of your brain and body to present yourself as a professional, then you're in enough control of your brain and body to be polite about how other people present themselves. It's not my job to hide my body parts to suit you.
Whoa! I was writing what’s below before I just saw Richard’s pictured post…Richard I get the basic point but you better put a filter on that cigarette.
I knew that stuff would bring Donna back. I think I just heard a door slam. Frankly after reading most everything you’ve written on the subject Donna I’m surprised to read your latest post. I said earlier that the women’s fashion industry creates too many confusing options for women that gets in the way of things. This thread isn’t about respect for women but how an architect should dress - which I guess now is including women.
I once had a young woman architect working for me that I felt had it all wrong, but never said anything….until one night our office held an Art Swaray for clients and friends of the firm and she showed up with a short-super tight skirt and a slightly see-through top - with no undergarments on! I didn’t notice it at first but it was the other women of the firm that came to me….and I went up close to have some light conversation and whoa…they were right! Everything was telegraphing through…and I had to send her home…our biggest client was a Convent of Nuns with many in the room. I thought after and now “How & why in the hell does that happen?”
Well, the guy in the green shirt - epic fail. Escort him to the parking lot. No hope there. The cupcake in the black dress? Cover up her top a little more (maybe a jacket?), add a few more inches of hemline, lose the necklace and earrings, and she I good to go.
In college our career centers offered advice on 'what's appropriate in a professional setting' sessions - design students usually ignored them, but their faculty did give us advice during the end of semester chats. Surprisingly helpful and I've since passed on similar advice to students: dress nice enough to come across like you care how you look as (for better or for worse) our profession is a lot about aesthetics. Personal fashion sense is a plus, but try to avoid offending most people (and you should know what that means if you're going to try to make it in this profession).
Sep 11, 14 3:47 pm ·
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Donna,
I was speaking about the subject of how architects (like any professional) should dress. My point is if you dress in a manner that conveys a "slut", it has a high probability that people will perceive you as one. Just like dressing like a prostitute. Sure, there is some that will be polite.
If you did in fact , dressed inappropriately, I would be polite. Clients may or may not dress professionally. My point isn't if I would be but how others who may not have the same degree of control.
Since the discussion is about professional attire of an architect, this is what we are discussing. What is appropriate and what isn't appropriate.
Guess what, in the U.S. where there is no ethics, morality or otherwise any form of discipline taught to the children anymore.... you can't expect people to know this by the time they go to college.
Yet, culturally we have biases and so forth. Not everyone is going to be polite because not everyone knows how to be.
Sep 11, 14 3:50 pm ·
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Carrera,
That isn't a cigarrette but a Swedish Detail Ruling Pen.
The undercurrent of your posting of all those women's outfits, Richard, is that women have to take responsibility for where your eyes go on their body. That's offensive.
In a professional setting, like an office, we really do have an expectation that everyone does know how to be polite. If someone (man or woman) is a mature adult, and a professional, then they know better than to stare at someone's cleavage in a professional setting.
Carrera, did your office have an office conduct manual? From an HR standpoint you have to have SOME kind of written-out guidelines. You can't just tell someone one day that what they have on "isn't appropriate" if you haven't spelled out what IS appropriate.
Also, this labeling of any woman who wears something tight as being "a slut" is so childish and lazy and puritan and awful. Get over yourself.
Lots of surveys over the years have shown that women tend to find mens' hands to be the sexiest body part. Should I call men sluts and exhibitionists for not wearing gloves at the office?
Sep 11, 14 4:11 pm ·
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Donna,
Ok, perhaps there is some teaching of disciplines, morals, ethics to children but it isn't like it used to be considering that more of the parents just aren't doing the parental role as it used to be. Especially with higher divorce rates and so forth.
Children in general do not have the upbringing as it used to be.
I saw a teenage girl recently whose arm ended just above the elbow, and she was wearing short sleeves. Should I have told her to cover that arm because oh boohoo it's hard for me to not stare at it? Or should I behave like a member of civil society and control where my eyes go?
Yeah, I'm pissed at this line of conversation and all those women you're parading for your own judgement up there, Richard.
OMG divorce has anything to do with this?!? You've veered off the deep end, Richard.
Sep 11, 14 4:15 pm ·
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It isn't just a matter of my eyes. It is a matter of how people in general are. They are NOT always polite.
The premise of the clothing form is to draw attention to certain parts of the body by design.
Certain clothes are cut and designed to accentuate certain parts, it will inherently draw attention.
One shouldn't where clothing in such a matter to overly accentuate the parts. My point isn't the particularly about being tight but overall clothes design explicitly to draw attention to certain parts of the body so as to draw men's attention. In other words, clothes designed intentionally for seduction should not be worn in a professional setting because we aren't suppose to be seducing through excessive sexual seduction. That was the point of the clothes.
Again, the clothes alone is just cloth. The issue is why would a woman wear night club clothes designed to sexually seduce a boyfriend to an office? Would it be appropriate for a man to wear clothes intentionally designed for sexual seduction to an office?
My point is, some clothes are not appropriate in certain settings. The idea is to dress appropriate and that is my key point..... MALE and FEMALE.
Sep 11, 14 4:33 pm ·
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Divorce and such where both parents aren't together raising children literally has a lot to do with children often not getting raised properly. Single parent raising a child more often then not leads to children not getting the discipline level they would otherwise have with both parents raising. Not being raised with ethics and values and discipline often leads to children ignoring and not valuing dress code standards because they aren't brought up to value societal rules, ettiquettes and guidelines.
It starts with the parent setting an example for the children. Overworked parent just doesn't have the energy to raise a child as effectively as two caring parents. Then we have kids growing up and having children. It's a societal problem that is getting worse with not having parenting ethics like it used to because these little things have profound effects on how people grow up down the road.
Reverse the clock back to 1950 and go from there and you can see how these turned the way they are from where they were in 1950.
As for clothing attire and ethics, this is something that although is not direct hinged on parenting, it is effected by how people grow up and the role models in the lives of our children.
I hope every office has a manual that covers dress code. one that isn't implicitly offensive.
Sep 11, 14 4:55 pm ·
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I do commend the single parent raising a child the best they can. I don't hate them for the situation they are in. It is just that it is a bad circumstances in our society that far too many are left raising childredn alone and not having two parents together raising children.
I want to be clear about that. In case, it was not being conveyed above.
I don't blame Donna for getting incensed over the slut stuff, but I will say it is far more complicated than that. First you have to factor in culture that glamorizes sluttiness with corporate merchandise branding - from Madonna, Britney Spears, Lady BarfBarf, Miley Cyrus (and just about every other pop star) to Ralph Lauren, Victoria's Secret, beer commercials, etc. etc. etc.
And that's before you factor in estrogen and testosterone. Or cultural shifts the more mature of us witness with horror and disgust. The whole society is built on sex (both literally and figuratively). And in this country at least on absurdist puritanical ideals that criminalizes sex in media (except for advertising, of course) while glorifying violence. Talk about confusing messages.
Sep 11, 14 5:46 pm ·
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Miles,
Thanks for adding that point. That is in fact the part I was trying to getting at without getting too verbose on that part. People have biases and such imprinted through constant bombarment of stereotypes and so forth through media, television, movies, etc.
However, professionally, we are obligated as figures of society to hold ourselves above the immorals of commoner life. We are called upon to be better than that. In order for our professional message and impression to be conveyed, we need continuity in our message and in our 'uniform' of our profession that does not convey the wrong message.
Our clothing is our uniforms of what we stand for and our values as professionals. As professionals, we want to communicate that we are serious, to be taken seriously, and as educated professionals. In addition, as creative professionals, we want to communicate that message as well in a coherent manner.
We don't want to send mix messages. One voice is more coherent than multiple voices. One message is more clear than multiple messages.
As clothing attire, we have room for individuality within a subliminal range yet still communicate our main message.
The way human brain works and memorizes has been scientifically determined to be associative. We are wired by association of patterns. Not just visual patterns but associative patterns. Clothing is associated by patterns of experiences. When I see clothing of gangbangers, I will get that impression and the people who where such clothing communicates that they subscribe to that way of life.
Types of clothing have associations to particular ways of life, values, culture. Some of it is contradictory to the values of the way of life of being an architectural/design/consultant professional. We are a professional of an occupational profession of a learned profession that has a general basic altruistic value to be purer than mundane ignorant people because we are educated to know better. We have a mission to protect the ignorant from themselves when it comes to architectural matters because the ignorant people will hurt themselves (if not get themselves killed) while putting harm to others.
That is why we have somewhat a 'puritan' perspective but its more altruism than puritanism.
Sep 11, 14 6:22 pm ·
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So we know the context of ignorant, it's ignorant of architectural matters. We have a mission to protect people ignorant of architectural matters from themselves.
We are all ignorant to something. Medical professionals have a mission to protect ignorant people from themselves when it comes to the context of medical matters. Ignorance is context dependent to the subject matter at hand.
if you're too weak to look at a girl without being sexually aroused, that's because you're weak and it's your problem, not the girl's.
but we live in a patriarchal society where some men who are generally too pathetic to control their base emotions blame women and think they can get away with telling them what to do.
however, some men aren't that weak and pathetic. since this isn't 1950 anymore, the patriarchal system you rely on to make you feel strong is crumbling. women are now equal to you. so, if you see some lady wearing a short skirt, understand that it doesn't have anything to do with you. they aren't trying to seduce you - it's not about you at all. then understand that if you have a problem with it, you have to change yourself. you don't have a right to tell that lady she's a slut or a prostitute, because, again, it's not about you. that's not your decision to make. you're getting excited because you're weak, and you're saying the woman should change because you're relying on the crumbling infrastructure of a patriarchal society to blame someone else for your weakness.
How to dress like an Architect
Donna, I have read most everything you have written on this subject and you make a lot of sense. You should really consider writing a Blog here on helping women dress in the profession. Not long ago I wrote something on Reddit on women in architecture and I just hinted at some of your ideas and they came at me like a pack of Feral Cats. I think the women’s fashion industry creates too many choices for women and it’s hard to get it right. It’s not a matter of dressing like a man it’s a matter of dressing like an architect. Your handbag is exactly the type of thing that I’m suggesting. Men or women your ideas about accessories are spot on.
if we are talking about colored pants how about The Invasion of the Lobster Legs?
Don't own any red pants/slacks but do prefer colors beyond black/white/khaki....
Personally, I would like to start wearing jackets/suits to work more.
Archanonymous, your idea of buying good lightly used on ebay is smart. A $1,000. suite looks like $1,000. suite regardless what you pay for it. You bring up another vital ingredient – tailoring. I think they have great long sleeve sport shirts that are good for work with or without a jacket but only come sm-med-lg and unless you are a perfect shape - you buy the size that fits around you and the sleeves are always too long. Same on dress shirts, if you are big you get the neck size that fits but can never find the correct corresponding sleeve length. It is an additional expense but necessary to look right - get them shortened…it’s not that much, men’s fashion doesn’t change and if you buy enough shirts they can last 2-3 years. Because of my size and position I bought custom made suites and shirts (had to) and it improved my overweight appearance remarkably…this is important for people who have a weight problem. I once had a client say to me (with a bit of a laugh) that the reason he hired me was that he liked the way I dressed…laugh if you will - but he said it.
Whatever you wear make sure you're comfortable in it. Fancy dress can make you feel uptight. I'd rather be the only guy in jeans and a T-shirt in a room full of suits than vice versa.
Never wear black; it is a very tired cliche. Besides Jean Nouvel has a patent on the color. He will send his black-clad, shaved head "associates" to pay you a visit.
wearing loud plaid and white-black checked socks today. What does that mean?
It means your university will revoke the degree they awarded you - especially if it's Ivy League.
i like to think of my wardrobe like the emperor's
if you can't see that i'm wearing a sportcoat of the finest material, it's probably because you're unfit for you position or hopelessly stupid.
The company Proper Suit (based out of Chicago) does a really nice made-to-measure without an extreme price tag.
Sneaky, thanks for the suggestion, looked them up and is a good source…read they use AutoCAD to cut their patterns, reason enough for us to buy there. They are now starting a shirt-club of sorts offering custom shirts by mail-order to keep up your supply. I used Shirt Creations out of Brooklyn for years for my shirts and was very satisfied. Switched to Charles Tyrwhitt – London in the last few years and found the British fabrics and tailoring provide a unique style that fits-the-look – and you don’t see yourself coming. Charles Tyrwhitt is a full line store and has women’s clothes and the stuff arrives in a flash at your doorstep. Proper Suit does in-person fitting and the other two you do your own…the list of measurements you input is pretty thorough and I’ve been very satisfied with the fits.
Richard, wearing what it is appropriate changes of course….can’t tell you how many times I’ve gotten nail-snagged at a jobsite, our business can be hard on clothes. We should have locker rooms…meeting with a client in the AM and getting dragged to a job site in the PM.
Following Miles’ analogy on coats and T-shirts I find it interesting who flinches first in those situations. I know things are super casual today but I almost always throw a jacket on over my polo because I think it makes be look better – being self conscious of my weight. I always know what will happen - it never fails….Just went to a high school get-together-cocktail party at a local restaurant and walked in that way and the first guy that I walked up to said “Hey, what’s with the jacket?” I looked him up-and-down and he was wearing a pair of those chunking leather sandals (bare feet), a pair of cargo shorts and a polo – he flinched not me. There were many dressed like him in the room but I also thought later that I’m still an architect and they all know I am and still looking the part shows respect for my profession – always better to dress-up than down.
http://propersuit.com/
http://www.shirtcreations.com/
http://www.ctshirts.com/default.aspx?q=|||||||||||||||
I hear you. One thing is I don't do site visits on a job site at the same time I am doing meetings. If I were to, I would be disclaiming up front with the client that I will be wearing clothes suitable for going through crawl spaces and other such spaces. Initial meeting, I would wear a jacket/dress shirt and dress pants and only a limited site visit around the site to capture some photos. I would come back to the site later for doing measurements and other work in clothes suitable for doing that such.
Most clients will understand that you don't go through crawl spacesand cob web infested attics in your "Sunday best" or suits. Always dress for the context of the occassion. Exactly. We don't always have the opportunity for a locker room.
Otherwise, we need one of these:
http://www.ohiolemonlaw.com/files/8214/0439/5122/RVLemonLaw.jpg
(Not a lemon but a fully functional RV.)
http://www.rickbalkinsbuildingdesigner.com/about
This is me... Working on the Houzz site. Work in progress.
Richard, like the ad on Houzz, having a picture of yourself is smart – been told by marketing experts that including a picture brings more responses statistically.
Would consider dropping the words Exemption from your Building Design Services list, too soon in the ad and is confusing to laypeople, better to apply the asterisk to each and let them read the footnote at the bottom.
Yep, will work on that. The site/pages will be worked on over the next several months which includes a logo that I am working on. It's all to be worked on. I agree, the wording of exemption can be complicated.
Thanks for the suggestion. I also did a minor tweak to the footnote at the bottom to correct the wordage a little bit.
I removed the repetitious usage of the word 'exempt'.
Here is my pet peeve...
Ladies, what kind of image are you selling when you show up to work wearing what could pass as a leotard and tutu, complete with platform heels? You want your clients, and coworkers for that matter, to want to work with you, not date you.
I don't know where you are wanting to go with this one. I do understand that our job (be it an employee of a business or owner of a business) is not the place to be getting in the sack with clients or co-workers. Personal relationships are to be carried out on personal time not at work or at the client's. It is unprofessional conduct.
Women should not be dressing with the subliminal message of "Take me to bed" when it comes to carrying out professional activities (as employees, owners/principals, etc.). Therefore, women should dress professionally including certain dinner activities of the business where you are representing the business you are employed or is a owner (or the owner) of.
Similarly, the same goes with men.
The bottom line is dressing professional because that is what you are and the message you want to communicate. Dressing professional is context of the occassion dependent. Dressing properly for the particular occassion. You don't dress in a suit and tie if you are going to be crawling in crawl spaces or otherwise. You dress appropriately.
A professional takes consideration of the occassion, who the client is as to what level of clothing is going to be comfortable with the client as you don't want to cause discomfort to the client. If it's a meeting, you may want to be dressing professionally just like lawyers and other professionals that are taken seriously if you want to be taken seriously.
Dress like a teenager and you'll be treated like one.
Dress like a slut/whore/lady of the night and you'll be treated like one. Don't convey the wrong subliminal message is an important factor in dressing professionally.
Dress like a slut/whore/lady of the night and you'll be treated like one.
You know, you can take this assumption straight to the trash. The corollary is also true: If a woman is not dressed professionally it is her coworkers'/business associates' responsibility to treat her with professional respect anyway. Period. Why? Because professionalism doesn't only flow in one direction.
People who judge others by how they choose to decorate and cover their bodies are fools. I would not mind an employee wearing a tutu, as long as she or he does her or his job. I even bet that that individual would be more enjoyable to work with than any stiff who thinks people ought to dress to their "standards".
Professionalism should flow both ways. Reality is, human nature doesn't work that way. However, how is it possible for a 18 to 25 year old intern if model figure dressed in a bikini and g-string going to not be distractive to the work place or other highly sexualized clothing that clearly is drawing attention to the boobs and just below the waist area?
The work place isn't about finding a guy to date and get in bed. The only reason for dressing that way is about sex and getting laid. That's not what a workplace if for.
This is what I would expect:
This is akin to what I would expect. Some cases, a little more casual but not too much. I expect men to wear the male business attire appropriate for a professional office enviroment.
Another example:
I don't expect to see this in the work space:
Work place is not a night club.
My main point is that we don't dress in a manner that conveys the wrong impression.
Sorry but this is the real world we are talking about not a fantasy ideal world (that will never exist) where everyone is going to provide two-way professionalism. Some will but most won't just like it has been since the beginning of the human race.
"Some will but most won't just like it has been since the beginning of the human race."
Slavery was fashionable at one point too.
^--- in the real world, richard balkins tells women how to dress. that's how it works.
by the way, anyone who is not unfit for the position they hold or not hopelessly stupid can tell the lady in the last picture is wearing a sportcoat of the finest material....
Yeah but we don't live and operate on pure fantasy but remember how long it took to abolish slavery which still is fashionable in most of the world.
My point is, U.S. isn't an ideal place. We still have biases, discrimination, etc. There isn't eough clients and projects for us to be too picky and expecting everyone to be magically ideal.
There is still biases and every client is an interview and when you are an employee... every day at work is an interview. Every day is your name, impression people have of you and so forth is at stake.
Clothing is just one element. Do you want to present the image that will mean you get on the next lay off notice or clients not hiring you.
As professionals, we aren't suppose to be hitting on our client or client's spouse. Right ?
We are suppose to be above sitcom drama... right?
^ does he tell them along with a firm yet soft pat to the tush to signify he means business?
^--- in the real world, richard balkins tells women how to dress. that's how it works.
Exactly, curt.
Yep. And he can't control it when he stares at a woman's butt when she's walking away no matter how she's dressed because that's just the way it works.
Seriously, Richard: if you're in enough control of your brain and body to present yourself as a professional, then you're in enough control of your brain and body to be polite about how other people present themselves. It's not my job to hide my body parts to suit you.
Yekh, that's why I prefer communism...communism or nudism.
Whoa! I was writing what’s below before I just saw Richard’s pictured post…Richard I get the basic point but you better put a filter on that cigarette.
I knew that stuff would bring Donna back. I think I just heard a door slam. Frankly after reading most everything you’ve written on the subject Donna I’m surprised to read your latest post. I said earlier that the women’s fashion industry creates too many confusing options for women that gets in the way of things. This thread isn’t about respect for women but how an architect should dress - which I guess now is including women.
I once had a young woman architect working for me that I felt had it all wrong, but never said anything….until one night our office held an Art Swaray for clients and friends of the firm and she showed up with a short-super tight skirt and a slightly see-through top - with no undergarments on! I didn’t notice it at first but it was the other women of the firm that came to me….and I went up close to have some light conversation and whoa…they were right! Everything was telegraphing through…and I had to send her home…our biggest client was a Convent of Nuns with many in the room. I thought after and now “How & why in the hell does that happen?”
TAMMUZ,
"communism or nudism"
Now that is a slogan!
Well, the guy in the green shirt - epic fail. Escort him to the parking lot. No hope there. The cupcake in the black dress? Cover up her top a little more (maybe a jacket?), add a few more inches of hemline, lose the necklace and earrings, and she I good to go.
In college our career centers offered advice on 'what's appropriate in a professional setting' sessions - design students usually ignored them, but their faculty did give us advice during the end of semester chats. Surprisingly helpful and I've since passed on similar advice to students: dress nice enough to come across like you care how you look as (for better or for worse) our profession is a lot about aesthetics. Personal fashion sense is a plus, but try to avoid offending most people (and you should know what that means if you're going to try to make it in this profession).
Donna,
I was speaking about the subject of how architects (like any professional) should dress. My point is if you dress in a manner that conveys a "slut", it has a high probability that people will perceive you as one. Just like dressing like a prostitute. Sure, there is some that will be polite.
If you did in fact , dressed inappropriately, I would be polite. Clients may or may not dress professionally. My point isn't if I would be but how others who may not have the same degree of control.
Since the discussion is about professional attire of an architect, this is what we are discussing. What is appropriate and what isn't appropriate.
Guess what, in the U.S. where there is no ethics, morality or otherwise any form of discipline taught to the children anymore.... you can't expect people to know this by the time they go to college.
Yet, culturally we have biases and so forth. Not everyone is going to be polite because not everyone knows how to be.
Carrera,
That isn't a cigarrette but a Swedish Detail Ruling Pen.
The undercurrent of your posting of all those women's outfits, Richard, is that women have to take responsibility for where your eyes go on their body. That's offensive.
In a professional setting, like an office, we really do have an expectation that everyone does know how to be polite. If someone (man or woman) is a mature adult, and a professional, then they know better than to stare at someone's cleavage in a professional setting.
Carrera, did your office have an office conduct manual? From an HR standpoint you have to have SOME kind of written-out guidelines. You can't just tell someone one day that what they have on "isn't appropriate" if you haven't spelled out what IS appropriate.
If I were you I'd use this photo instead.
Also, this labeling of any woman who wears something tight as being "a slut" is so childish and lazy and puritan and awful. Get over yourself.
Lots of surveys over the years have shown that women tend to find mens' hands to be the sexiest body part. Should I call men sluts and exhibitionists for not wearing gloves at the office?
Donna,
Ok, perhaps there is some teaching of disciplines, morals, ethics to children but it isn't like it used to be considering that more of the parents just aren't doing the parental role as it used to be. Especially with higher divorce rates and so forth.
Children in general do not have the upbringing as it used to be.
I saw a teenage girl recently whose arm ended just above the elbow, and she was wearing short sleeves. Should I have told her to cover that arm because oh boohoo it's hard for me to not stare at it? Or should I behave like a member of civil society and control where my eyes go?
Yeah, I'm pissed at this line of conversation and all those women you're parading for your own judgement up there, Richard.
OMG divorce has anything to do with this?!? You've veered off the deep end, Richard.
It isn't just a matter of my eyes. It is a matter of how people in general are. They are NOT always polite.
The premise of the clothing form is to draw attention to certain parts of the body by design.
Certain clothes are cut and designed to accentuate certain parts, it will inherently draw attention.
One shouldn't where clothing in such a matter to overly accentuate the parts. My point isn't the particularly about being tight but overall clothes design explicitly to draw attention to certain parts of the body so as to draw men's attention. In other words, clothes designed intentionally for seduction should not be worn in a professional setting because we aren't suppose to be seducing through excessive sexual seduction. That was the point of the clothes.
Again, the clothes alone is just cloth. The issue is why would a woman wear night club clothes designed to sexually seduce a boyfriend to an office? Would it be appropriate for a man to wear clothes intentionally designed for sexual seduction to an office?
My point is, some clothes are not appropriate in certain settings. The idea is to dress appropriate and that is my key point..... MALE and FEMALE.
Divorce and such where both parents aren't together raising children literally has a lot to do with children often not getting raised properly. Single parent raising a child more often then not leads to children not getting the discipline level they would otherwise have with both parents raising. Not being raised with ethics and values and discipline often leads to children ignoring and not valuing dress code standards because they aren't brought up to value societal rules, ettiquettes and guidelines.
It starts with the parent setting an example for the children. Overworked parent just doesn't have the energy to raise a child as effectively as two caring parents. Then we have kids growing up and having children. It's a societal problem that is getting worse with not having parenting ethics like it used to because these little things have profound effects on how people grow up down the road.
Reverse the clock back to 1950 and go from there and you can see how these turned the way they are from where they were in 1950.
As for clothing attire and ethics, this is something that although is not direct hinged on parenting, it is effected by how people grow up and the role models in the lives of our children.
wow...
p.s. RBAA, you should have used caps on 'AND'
I hope every office has a manual that covers dress code. one that isn't implicitly offensive.
I do commend the single parent raising a child the best they can. I don't hate them for the situation they are in. It is just that it is a bad circumstances in our society that far too many are left raising childredn alone and not having two parents together raising children.
I want to be clear about that. In case, it was not being conveyed above.
I don't blame Donna for getting incensed over the slut stuff, but I will say it is far more complicated than that. First you have to factor in culture that glamorizes sluttiness with corporate merchandise branding - from Madonna, Britney Spears, Lady BarfBarf, Miley Cyrus (and just about every other pop star) to Ralph Lauren, Victoria's Secret, beer commercials, etc. etc. etc.
And that's before you factor in estrogen and testosterone. Or cultural shifts the more mature of us witness with horror and disgust. The whole society is built on sex (both literally and figuratively). And in this country at least on absurdist puritanical ideals that criminalizes sex in media (except for advertising, of course) while glorifying violence. Talk about confusing messages.
Miles,
Thanks for adding that point. That is in fact the part I was trying to getting at without getting too verbose on that part. People have biases and such imprinted through constant bombarment of stereotypes and so forth through media, television, movies, etc.
However, professionally, we are obligated as figures of society to hold ourselves above the immorals of commoner life. We are called upon to be better than that. In order for our professional message and impression to be conveyed, we need continuity in our message and in our 'uniform' of our profession that does not convey the wrong message.
Our clothing is our uniforms of what we stand for and our values as professionals. As professionals, we want to communicate that we are serious, to be taken seriously, and as educated professionals. In addition, as creative professionals, we want to communicate that message as well in a coherent manner.
We don't want to send mix messages. One voice is more coherent than multiple voices. One message is more clear than multiple messages.
As clothing attire, we have room for individuality within a subliminal range yet still communicate our main message.
The way human brain works and memorizes has been scientifically determined to be associative. We are wired by association of patterns. Not just visual patterns but associative patterns. Clothing is associated by patterns of experiences. When I see clothing of gangbangers, I will get that impression and the people who where such clothing communicates that they subscribe to that way of life.
Types of clothing have associations to particular ways of life, values, culture. Some of it is contradictory to the values of the way of life of being an architectural/design/consultant professional. We are a professional of an occupational profession of a learned profession that has a general basic altruistic value to be purer than mundane ignorant people because we are educated to know better. We have a mission to protect the ignorant from themselves when it comes to architectural matters because the ignorant people will hurt themselves (if not get themselves killed) while putting harm to others.
That is why we have somewhat a 'puritan' perspective but its more altruism than puritanism.
So we know the context of ignorant, it's ignorant of architectural matters. We have a mission to protect people ignorant of architectural matters from themselves.
We are all ignorant to something. Medical professionals have a mission to protect ignorant people from themselves when it comes to the context of medical matters. Ignorance is context dependent to the subject matter at hand.
if you're too weak to look at a girl without being sexually aroused, that's because you're weak and it's your problem, not the girl's.
but we live in a patriarchal society where some men who are generally too pathetic to control their base emotions blame women and think they can get away with telling them what to do.
however, some men aren't that weak and pathetic. since this isn't 1950 anymore, the patriarchal system you rely on to make you feel strong is crumbling. women are now equal to you. so, if you see some lady wearing a short skirt, understand that it doesn't have anything to do with you. they aren't trying to seduce you - it's not about you at all. then understand that if you have a problem with it, you have to change yourself. you don't have a right to tell that lady she's a slut or a prostitute, because, again, it's not about you. that's not your decision to make. you're getting excited because you're weak, and you're saying the woman should change because you're relying on the crumbling infrastructure of a patriarchal society to blame someone else for your weakness.
the only reason I stopped wearing sweatpants to work is because I wore out the crotch.
curtkram thank you so much for that post. It's exactly on target and I'm too incensed to be so rational and clear about it.
toaster thank you for your post, too. It made me laugh.
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