So I have to pay a tax to the government for breathing??
This is a con of the highest order.
Its strange how the fix to any environmental problem is always to pay more money to the government!!
And the people in government who promote paying carbon offsets are the very people with a vested interest in the companies that stand to benefit from people paying.
CON
Free Ramos, You should'nt get a bad conscience over living, really.
Global warming is a scam, carbon taxes are a scam.
yeah, the greek collondate that obama was behind looked rather fascist-esque from a distance, kind of like tempelhof airport in berlin. i was kind of shocked and appalled. combined with the fact that the music and cameras created this absurd cult of personality around him, like he is the one true savior that will lead our country back to glory. ugh. i still think he would be a better president than mccain. but the whole way everything was orchestrated yesterday really reminded me of hitler.
If you havent noticed America is becoming very like Nazi Germany, so his likeness to Adolf is not a shock.
Global warming is a sham.
The earth hasent warmed since 1998, and no conclusive evidence shows that humans have had any effect on the natural heating and cooling cycles of the earth.
Zoolander, you'd be proud of me. The other weekend when the Sierra Club knocked on my door I called them on the carpet and challenged them to prove that their "carbon footprint" was less than mine.
I'm all for the environment. I'm a LEED AP and support all that it stands for. But, I don't appreciate non-profits pushing a political party, and that's exactly why the Sierra Club was on my doorstep. Then when they brought up the topic of drilling for oil they were clueless outside their talking points. They couldn't even answer simple questions like how much oil is burned every day in the US? And they couldn't answer anything about environmental regualtions already in place for oil exploration. If you're trying to sell an agenda be informed please.
Sorry for the thread jack but this is a topic that gripes me to no end since most people know nothing about it and cheer talking points like Obama saying last night that in 10 years we'll be free of oil imports from the Middle east. Say what? I'll debate that one with you Mr. Obama.
People cheer topics they know nothing about because thay are sheep.
And sheep get sheared and butchered.
As usual Obama is saying what the people want to hear to get the votes. Not that winning the vote count matters, as we've seen from Bush's rigged election.
People cheer topics they know nothing about because thay are sheep.
Well, my argument was the Sierra Club is more about pushing a political agenda than saving the environment. I can suport their original cause, but not their current actions.
Oil is a topic that gets me because politicians know nothing about it. In the Pelosi Meet the Press interview when she said natural gas isn't a fossil fuel my eyes just rolled knowing that the country never will have a serious energy policy with comments like that.
The whole environmental drive is being used as a stick to flog the public with, for political motives.
The Club of Rome discuess this very issue in 'The First Global Revolution'.
Anyone well read on this topic like myself will realise its a con.
Im all for doing my bit to preserve the environment, but I make a stand when governments latch onto this movement and twist its objectives to suit their own goals.
Scribble - let me explaine Obama's post birth abortion stance in IL. Various hard core anti abortion groups kept introducing extremely rare scenerios into legislation to be concidered - like ban on post birth abortions. Its virtually nonexistant. No one goes in for a late term abortion and rarely if ever is a post birth abortion nessessary for reason medical or botched procedure. The reason these folks introduce bills like this is to say, " Hey look at that politician Hes a baby killer". If they agree to the ban then they can say who is he to decide the starting line for life? Its a trap and Obama didnt fall into it. Im not particularily fond of the idea of abortion but you cant have unregulated abortions happening in back alleys. And in fact Obama said last night what Ive said for years - dont make abortions illeagal but make unwanted pregnancy a thing of the past.
re: greek stage
the greeks also gave the west a form of sin and retribution
the non-american question is: setting the world stage for more hubris or less?
it is interesting to note that there is a contradiction between the almost complete (segmented circular arrangement echoing performance amphitheatres and the singluar orientation of the 'preacher stand' that would indicate a semi circular speech centred amphitheater. This is quite telling:
-while the american public might think that the charm of the circle endows them with the equality of a cog in a machine, in truth their leaders can only face some and turn their back on others. it is the paradox between american rhetoric and reality ie a cleavage between language (the semi cricle) and action (the full circle). so therein the ultimate american gemetrical paradox.
- since, i am sure, there are huge screens that pick him up for everyone else and its easier to look at a big screen than a little man, then not only is the background a mock-up ..an architectural model...but so is the obama foreground. yet again, the reality of the circle is being contradicted by the envisaged frontal projection => a larger audience, the nation, in front of the television screen...this is so much more potent, much more theatrical, that the television obama supersedes the physical obama for most of the people present physically around him.
the real object force here is not obama but the preacher bible stand. without it, he would fall prey to the trivia of performance. it only takes the removal of this stand to turn this into a broadway show; this shows:
-by making and orienting the center obvious, people assume its a serious display; disbelief is suspended.
- by regressing the center into invisibility, people accept it as informal, a joke, a fiction: belief is suspended.
washington dc is full of greek and classical forms... it symbolizes the origins of democratic values...
I think there's something to be said for the idea of a public forum... Historically, the idea of democracy originated with the greeks, especially the idea of democracy where government is responsible to the people... The idea of "public space" as a political space, where people have a voice... Obama's said that the reason for moving to the stadium was to open up the convention to the public because they were the ones who funded and who drove the campaign, the greek imagery seems to make sense...
Historical Origins of Democracy
The genesis of democracy can be traced back to the Greek city-state of Athens. The democratic idea of a government responsible to the governed, of trial by jury and of civil liberties of thought, speech, writing and worship have been stimulated by Greek history. Emphasis on liberty and the studies related to man were the main tenets of ancient Greece. It was their sense of liberty and independence, individual and collective, which inspired them to accomplishments in philosophy, politics and science. The Greeks gave to mankind the idea of politics as the business of citizens as against the arbitrary rule of the despots.
Not under existing laws, except in some limited cases...come back and talk to us when you and your right-wing friends have placed exactly who you want in the Supreme Court and succeed in making your personal beliefs the law of the land.
-it's bad design. if for anyone or anything other than obama, y'all would be trashing this as all that's bad with the u.s. and mcmansion-ization of our cities/burbs
-for a campaign whose theme is 'change', this is the exact opposite. do you really think the average american (or that 95% who will see tax cuts (!?!)) will get that greek imagery = the birth of democracy?
-for a campaign that rails against washington insiders and the status quo, should the backdrop be representive of washington and the status quo?
-if obama wants to get off foreign oil and use solar, wind, water, clean coal (!?!), and other renewable resources, why didn't he represent that with solar panels and windmills in the backdrop? he could have contributed to the powering of the stadium with that stuff, and said something like 'in one week we put together this structure that creates clean power for the stadium. in ten years we can implement this throughout our great country ... '.
-obama could even say the solar panel and windmill backdrop will be dismantled and donated to jimbob rancher in eastern colorado or western nebraska/kansas (keep it local, reduce co2 emissions). this will offset jimbob's energy cost by 30% and lead the way to energy independence ..
-i know the democratic convention was 'green' and i'm sure lots of money was paid in carbon credits. but actually putting that money toward solar panels, windmills, etc. would have been a better symbol for what obama's talking about.
-i was serious about my question 'will the stage set be recycled or reused?' what is it made of, how much did it cost, what happens to it? if it's recycled biodegradable materials that will melt away in a landfill then i'll give the DNC a few points; but if it's lead-coated asbestos shipped over from china i'm gonna have some problems here. i just don't know and am curious to learn.
-did i mention it was bad design? come on, you're architects! be objective and critical about this - it was a history making event. al gore often asks if our grandchildren will see us as having the courage to tackle climate change. well, wouldn't it have been great to have a technologically modern, sustainable design as a backdrop to such an important speech? come on!
I don't know that it's bad design... It's not the barcelona pavilion... It's just a backdrop for a convention event in a football stadium... If you go all modern with digital effects, it looks like a rock concert, if you go simple, it still looks like a football stadium... Temporary backdrop for a convention event... in other words, keep it relatively cheap, but don't make it look cheap... Press photos are going to be broadcasted all over the country and around the world... It's an outdoor space basically, I liked the design of the interior set for the other three nights, but this is okay...
I know we architects tend to be averse to anything that hints at pomo or classical these days, but the architecture here isn't meant to be beautiful, it's not supposed to be the focus... It's more about symbolic significance... Greek says democratic... The circular format is more visible, the speach stand is almost like barn siding... The windows at back sort of hint at households... All this stuff is carefully orchestrated...
It could be worse, and it's not built for designers, it's for people... It does what it does...
i suspect the paradox lies in that americans owe more to the romans than to the hellenic greeks. and the romans are always the empire-simmering-beneath-the-republic. frontality, archi-politically, is roman par excellence (whereas sexually, it was also very greek (turning the back tainted a male with the temperature of a passive, cold woman). the greek orator, political prototype, shared the same space as the athlete for their parallel purposes: a civilized display of body and a civilized display of words. the orator was therefore also susceptible to being attacked from the flank or back side; the circle was the testing ground for how well logos could emanate and overtake its audience (there must be a very intimate connection, a place within each other, between dionysian frenzy and the exposition of logos, both in their 'contamination' of their audience). speech, for the greek, was still language in self discovery; by the time of the efficient roman empire machine, it became a medium, not a thing-in-itself, through which the structure of the one (the leader) and the many (populace) was affirmed through reiteration. the circle was left to sports which, now devoid of the backbone of the religiousity of language, turned to spectacle and visuality. The greek circle was then turned inside out by the romans: change no longer occured on the periphery but within the center...the audience were not expected to permanently change; however, the wrestlers and gladiators were - from a state of living/winning to a state of death/losing.
in their own way, americans harken back to this. what is significant is not how much the leader can change and inspire her/his people but how well s/he can reinstate the national power structure and simultaneusly come across as 'representing' the people. the leader must therefore represent both and be the amalgam of his people's intelligence and their stupidity. hence the hybrid stupidity of a frontally projecting preacher stand in the middle of circular stage and the intelligence of television screens in living rooms around the world. and the hybrid american intelligence-stupidity tradition of advertising equality and obliterating variety.
Emilio wrote:
"Not under existing laws, except in some limited cases...come back and talk to us when you and your right-wing friends have placed exactly who you want in the Supreme Court and succeed in making your personal beliefs the law of the land.
Ok, back to the Greek talk."
It is murder. I don't need the law to tell me what is and is not murder. Any logical thinker will tell you that when a person is born then killed, it is murder.
But you just believe what the government tell you, I bet your a 'good guy'. Waken up. Also I am not right wing or left wing.
As for people saying the greek layout and monuments in Washington DC represents democracy, you guys crack me up!
Democracy is the furthest thing from the minds of the people who designed that stuff and for the people who comissioned it.
Greek Imagery for Obama
Zoolander, go outside and fart: that's a carbon footprint.
then go to terrapass to calculate the offset for that
What Greek Role?
hahahahahahaha
How Prophetic.
So I have to pay a tax to the government for breathing??
This is a con of the highest order.
Its strange how the fix to any environmental problem is always to pay more money to the government!!
And the people in government who promote paying carbon offsets are the very people with a vested interest in the companies that stand to benefit from people paying.
CON
Free Ramos, You should'nt get a bad conscience over living, really.
Global warming is a scam, carbon taxes are a scam.
WAKE UP FOLKS.
no, Bluesteel is a scam, global warming is real, and don't you have a keg to tip or a chip board study model to build?
yeah, the greek collondate that obama was behind looked rather fascist-esque from a distance, kind of like tempelhof airport in berlin. i was kind of shocked and appalled. combined with the fact that the music and cameras created this absurd cult of personality around him, like he is the one true savior that will lead our country back to glory. ugh. i still think he would be a better president than mccain. but the whole way everything was orchestrated yesterday really reminded me of hitler.
it's a stageset meant to remind of the lincoln memorial/march on washington. lighten up, everybody. it's show business!
If you havent noticed America is becoming very like Nazi Germany, so his likeness to Adolf is not a shock.
Global warming is a sham.
The earth hasent warmed since 1998, and no conclusive evidence shows that humans have had any effect on the natural heating and cooling cycles of the earth.
Zoolander, you'd be proud of me. The other weekend when the Sierra Club knocked on my door I called them on the carpet and challenged them to prove that their "carbon footprint" was less than mine.
I'm all for the environment. I'm a LEED AP and support all that it stands for. But, I don't appreciate non-profits pushing a political party, and that's exactly why the Sierra Club was on my doorstep. Then when they brought up the topic of drilling for oil they were clueless outside their talking points. They couldn't even answer simple questions like how much oil is burned every day in the US? And they couldn't answer anything about environmental regualtions already in place for oil exploration. If you're trying to sell an agenda be informed please.
Sorry for the thread jack but this is a topic that gripes me to no end since most people know nothing about it and cheer talking points like Obama saying last night that in 10 years we'll be free of oil imports from the Middle east. Say what? I'll debate that one with you Mr. Obama.
People cheer topics they know nothing about because thay are sheep.
And sheep get sheared and butchered.
As usual Obama is saying what the people want to hear to get the votes. Not that winning the vote count matters, as we've seen from Bush's rigged election.
Expect more laws, less privacy, more taxes.
zoolander you're a bit harsh
but obama did go kind of too far in promising all kinds of nice stuff
i would have preferred to hear a logical argument full of evidence and support rather than the superficial speech made to enthuse a superficial nation
“People get the government they deserve.”
This famous quote condenses the whole issue.
If people don't start waking up to reality and accepting some responsibility they cannot complain when the government takes off the velvet glove...
Well, my argument was the Sierra Club is more about pushing a political agenda than saving the environment. I can suport their original cause, but not their current actions.
Oil is a topic that gets me because politicians know nothing about it. In the Pelosi Meet the Press interview when she said natural gas isn't a fossil fuel my eyes just rolled knowing that the country never will have a serious energy policy with comments like that.
Aqua,
You're right about the political agenda.
The whole environmental drive is being used as a stick to flog the public with, for political motives.
The Club of Rome discuess this very issue in 'The First Global Revolution'.
Anyone well read on this topic like myself will realise its a con.
Im all for doing my bit to preserve the environment, but I make a stand when governments latch onto this movement and twist its objectives to suit their own goals.
"but I make a stand when governments latch onto this movement and twist its objectives to suit their own goals."
Like, say, capitalism?
Scribble - let me explaine Obama's post birth abortion stance in IL. Various hard core anti abortion groups kept introducing extremely rare scenerios into legislation to be concidered - like ban on post birth abortions. Its virtually nonexistant. No one goes in for a late term abortion and rarely if ever is a post birth abortion nessessary for reason medical or botched procedure. The reason these folks introduce bills like this is to say, " Hey look at that politician Hes a baby killer". If they agree to the ban then they can say who is he to decide the starting line for life? Its a trap and Obama didnt fall into it. Im not particularily fond of the idea of abortion but you cant have unregulated abortions happening in back alleys. And in fact Obama said last night what Ive said for years - dont make abortions illeagal but make unwanted pregnancy a thing of the past.
Its more than any numbers of -ism's that can be bandied about.
All I know is that this carbon footprint rubbish is going to reduce my freedoms/rights and take yet more hard earned money out of my pocket.
Personally I think the average man is at breaking point at the minute with all the government taxes already in place.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
The words of Franklin.
'Post birth abortion' is even more abstrat than 'carbon footprint'
Post birth abortion is murder. Lets call a spade a spade.
Pre birth abortion is also murder.
But post birth abortion is another step in the degredation of the human life.
Community=Communism.
Communities aren't Planned - they grow organically.
i had such high hopes for this thread...
re: greek stage
the greeks also gave the west a form of sin and retribution
the non-american question is: setting the world stage for more hubris or less?
it is interesting to note that there is a contradiction between the almost complete (segmented circular arrangement echoing performance amphitheatres and the singluar orientation of the 'preacher stand' that would indicate a semi circular speech centred amphitheater. This is quite telling:
-while the american public might think that the charm of the circle endows them with the equality of a cog in a machine, in truth their leaders can only face some and turn their back on others. it is the paradox between american rhetoric and reality ie a cleavage between language (the semi cricle) and action (the full circle). so therein the ultimate american gemetrical paradox.
- since, i am sure, there are huge screens that pick him up for everyone else and its easier to look at a big screen than a little man, then not only is the background a mock-up ..an architectural model...but so is the obama foreground. yet again, the reality of the circle is being contradicted by the envisaged frontal projection => a larger audience, the nation, in front of the television screen...this is so much more potent, much more theatrical, that the television obama supersedes the physical obama for most of the people present physically around him.
the real object force here is not obama but the preacher bible stand. without it, he would fall prey to the trivia of performance. it only takes the removal of this stand to turn this into a broadway show; this shows:
-by making and orienting the center obvious, people assume its a serious display; disbelief is suspended.
- by regressing the center into invisibility, people accept it as informal, a joke, a fiction: belief is suspended.
Curt had such high hopes for this thread....
What exactly were you expecting??
washington dc is full of greek and classical forms... it symbolizes the origins of democratic values...
Historical Origins of DemocracyI think there's something to be said for the idea of a public forum... Historically, the idea of democracy originated with the greeks, especially the idea of democracy where government is responsible to the people... The idea of "public space" as a political space, where people have a voice... Obama's said that the reason for moving to the stadium was to open up the convention to the public because they were the ones who funded and who drove the campaign, the greek imagery seems to make sense...
The genesis of democracy can be traced back to the Greek city-state of Athens. The democratic idea of a government responsible to the governed, of trial by jury and of civil liberties of thought, speech, writing and worship have been stimulated by Greek history. Emphasis on liberty and the studies related to man were the main tenets of ancient Greece. It was their sense of liberty and independence, individual and collective, which inspired them to accomplishments in philosophy, politics and science. The Greeks gave to mankind the idea of politics as the business of citizens as against the arbitrary rule of the despots.
"Pre birth abortion is also murder."
Not under existing laws, except in some limited cases...come back and talk to us when you and your right-wing friends have placed exactly who you want in the Supreme Court and succeed in making your personal beliefs the law of the land.
Ok, back to the Greek talk.
i'm surprised at you guys
-it's bad design. if for anyone or anything other than obama, y'all would be trashing this as all that's bad with the u.s. and mcmansion-ization of our cities/burbs
-for a campaign whose theme is 'change', this is the exact opposite. do you really think the average american (or that 95% who will see tax cuts (!?!)) will get that greek imagery = the birth of democracy?
-for a campaign that rails against washington insiders and the status quo, should the backdrop be representive of washington and the status quo?
-if obama wants to get off foreign oil and use solar, wind, water, clean coal (!?!), and other renewable resources, why didn't he represent that with solar panels and windmills in the backdrop? he could have contributed to the powering of the stadium with that stuff, and said something like 'in one week we put together this structure that creates clean power for the stadium. in ten years we can implement this throughout our great country ... '.
-obama could even say the solar panel and windmill backdrop will be dismantled and donated to jimbob rancher in eastern colorado or western nebraska/kansas (keep it local, reduce co2 emissions). this will offset jimbob's energy cost by 30% and lead the way to energy independence ..
-i know the democratic convention was 'green' and i'm sure lots of money was paid in carbon credits. but actually putting that money toward solar panels, windmills, etc. would have been a better symbol for what obama's talking about.
-i was serious about my question 'will the stage set be recycled or reused?' what is it made of, how much did it cost, what happens to it? if it's recycled biodegradable materials that will melt away in a landfill then i'll give the DNC a few points; but if it's lead-coated asbestos shipped over from china i'm gonna have some problems here. i just don't know and am curious to learn.
-did i mention it was bad design? come on, you're architects! be objective and critical about this - it was a history making event. al gore often asks if our grandchildren will see us as having the courage to tackle climate change. well, wouldn't it have been great to have a technologically modern, sustainable design as a backdrop to such an important speech? come on!
I don't know that it's bad design... It's not the barcelona pavilion... It's just a backdrop for a convention event in a football stadium... If you go all modern with digital effects, it looks like a rock concert, if you go simple, it still looks like a football stadium... Temporary backdrop for a convention event... in other words, keep it relatively cheap, but don't make it look cheap... Press photos are going to be broadcasted all over the country and around the world... It's an outdoor space basically, I liked the design of the interior set for the other three nights, but this is okay...
I know we architects tend to be averse to anything that hints at pomo or classical these days, but the architecture here isn't meant to be beautiful, it's not supposed to be the focus... It's more about symbolic significance... Greek says democratic... The circular format is more visible, the speach stand is almost like barn siding... The windows at back sort of hint at households... All this stuff is carefully orchestrated...
It could be worse, and it's not built for designers, it's for people... It does what it does...
how many people can you pack in around he DAM?
i suspect the paradox lies in that americans owe more to the romans than to the hellenic greeks. and the romans are always the empire-simmering-beneath-the-republic. frontality, archi-politically, is roman par excellence (whereas sexually, it was also very greek (turning the back tainted a male with the temperature of a passive, cold woman). the greek orator, political prototype, shared the same space as the athlete for their parallel purposes: a civilized display of body and a civilized display of words. the orator was therefore also susceptible to being attacked from the flank or back side; the circle was the testing ground for how well logos could emanate and overtake its audience (there must be a very intimate connection, a place within each other, between dionysian frenzy and the exposition of logos, both in their 'contamination' of their audience). speech, for the greek, was still language in self discovery; by the time of the efficient roman empire machine, it became a medium, not a thing-in-itself, through which the structure of the one (the leader) and the many (populace) was affirmed through reiteration. the circle was left to sports which, now devoid of the backbone of the religiousity of language, turned to spectacle and visuality. The greek circle was then turned inside out by the romans: change no longer occured on the periphery but within the center...the audience were not expected to permanently change; however, the wrestlers and gladiators were - from a state of living/winning to a state of death/losing.
in their own way, americans harken back to this. what is significant is not how much the leader can change and inspire her/his people but how well s/he can reinstate the national power structure and simultaneusly come across as 'representing' the people. the leader must therefore represent both and be the amalgam of his people's intelligence and their stupidity. hence the hybrid stupidity of a frontally projecting preacher stand in the middle of circular stage and the intelligence of television screens in living rooms around the world. and the hybrid american intelligence-stupidity tradition of advertising equality and obliterating variety.
Emilio wrote:
"Not under existing laws, except in some limited cases...come back and talk to us when you and your right-wing friends have placed exactly who you want in the Supreme Court and succeed in making your personal beliefs the law of the land.
Ok, back to the Greek talk."
It is murder. I don't need the law to tell me what is and is not murder. Any logical thinker will tell you that when a person is born then killed, it is murder.
But you just believe what the government tell you, I bet your a 'good guy'. Waken up. Also I am not right wing or left wing.
As for people saying the greek layout and monuments in Washington DC represents democracy, you guys crack me up!
Democracy is the furthest thing from the minds of the people who designed that stuff and for the people who comissioned it.
What I said above.
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