I have recently heard of a contractor in Cali using screws while stick framing a house. I framed for 3 summers while in school and never once heard of this method. I don't recall learning about this in school either. Is this a typical practice?
Not only does it seem like this would take A LOT longer than using a nail gun or nailing by hand, it seem like it is border line dangerous. Last time I checked, screws snap when bent and have very little shear strength (think joist hangers). Also, would this have any affect when the wood epands and contracts?
Sometimes screws are used when attaching plywood subflooring to joists, in order to avoid squeaky floors (that nailing sometimes results in). And, of course, drywall is screwed to wood studs.
But using screws to attach studs to plates, etcetera? Haven't heard of that.
if you use screws that have an ICC report and select screws with equivalent capacities as nails, there isn't any reason why you couldn't substitute them for nails.
on the house i worked on, we first started to use nails...... but since the firm was in nyc and we were in michigan and it was sort of like a design/build as you go, we changed to screws...
the arch changed alot of stuff in the process simply because it wouldnt work or they changed their minds..... we ended up used the deckmate screws and simpson ties on alot of things........
and remember when you do residential..... to know the "actual" thickness of lumber/etc...... being off by .5 to .75 isnt cool
so we had to double check everything and make adjustments....luckily we had a good crew of 5 people.............. but still had to send it back to the archs...then they had to beatch and "approve" the right way....then they would change it.....etc........
we did use nails on a few things.... such as sistering up a joist or for stacking up blocking......firestops/etc....
I know for a fact Simpson uses Screws in 120 mph wind condition design....I know because I have seen it. They actually make a
screw gun for anchoring floor sheathing with screws. Yes they are
better than nails in withdrawl....If you don't believe me back one out
just a bit from the finish surface and try to pull it out with a clawhammer....tough little buggers those screws are.
I dont disagree with the screwing in of flooring. Have you ever toe "nailed" (screwed) a stud to a plate, or toe screwed a joist to a top plate? This is the area that I am most curious about.
snook_dude - are those aplications for H-clips or joist hangers?
Toe-screwing sounds a little "screwy" to me. But I'd trust the fasteners. While some screws are vulnerable to torque failure while being driven, this wouldn't necessarily translate to failure once in place. . .
"if you have "good" carpenters then they will know how the read the grain and hit the right angle for toe-ing......"
This is the first addition they have ever done! Dont know if that qualifies for good...
Unfortunetly the person who could potentially be my boss has way less experiance then me and another co-worker, but he is stubburn and "knows" the right way to do EVERYTHING
borderline dangerous (seismically) is my guess. having looked, it's difficult/impossible to find data on screws and comparative malleability is a concern. i sat through a seismic retrofit class (as a home owner) and screws were explicitly prohibited for attachment of shear panels. the instructor said that if you're in a basement during an earthquake that right after the event an exposed nail head of a shear panel should be hot to the touch -the heat generated by the movement of the nail. it concerns me that a screw wouldn't behave this way.
vindingo, perhaps more interestingly, what do you think this contractor is doing? is he doing it intentionally? is he trying slow the work? has anyone questioned him on it? also, what did you have in your spec?
el jeffe, the fastening schedule of the CBC (table 2304.9.1) stipulates all structural nailing to be common or box nails, except where otherwise stated.
2007 CBC allows for 14 gauge staples now in lieu of nails, but there's no allowance for screws...
why would anybody screw where should be nailed? the whole volumes of calculations and tests and practice and materials manufacturing and tools and prices and etc., are based on nails.
i can understand using screws instead of nails on drywall installation etc. but type 5 framing calls for nails not screws.
i can only imagine some weekend hobbyist trying to build a doghouse w/ screws.
Cabinetmakers know the advantages of screws. I recently replaced some exterior siding and trim, and used Grabbers which I sunk and (exterior) spackled. I was making 45-degree miters and working with a wavy building. Screws allowed me to selectively remove and adjust shims, and to bring wet-caulked miters gently and accurately together as I proceeded.
I know for hurricane use screws are typically not accepted (typically). Screws can be used for interiors and where works are intended to be temporary. They do leave less of a mess when removed.
i can see screws passing the test on metal plate to wood applications ,like hold downs and some metal hangers but framing stud to framing stud??
there are no tools developed to put in 2.5" screw as rapid as nail gun. or is there? can you imagine the cost because of the time? but really, i think structural considerations would trump all.
I wonder why screws would be considered less safe in hurricane conditions. Surely the withdrawal resistance is greater. Could tests have shown shear strength is less ?
Carpenters are using hammer-drills now for driving screws. Far less breakage and cam-out, and they sink like butter. Noisy, though. . .
screws diameter are measured to the teeth not the core, as such of a similar dimension to a nail it would be a smaller diameter and thus more likely to shear. That's what I was taught and shown with wtl scenarios
Jul 2, 08 7:09 pm ·
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"Screwed" Up Stick Framing
I have recently heard of a contractor in Cali using screws while stick framing a house. I framed for 3 summers while in school and never once heard of this method. I don't recall learning about this in school either. Is this a typical practice?
Not only does it seem like this would take A LOT longer than using a nail gun or nailing by hand, it seem like it is border line dangerous. Last time I checked, screws snap when bent and have very little shear strength (think joist hangers). Also, would this have any affect when the wood epands and contracts?
Has anyone ever done this, or spec'd it?
Could it be that they are talking of 'stick framing' as simply a method, and actually using metal studs?
they could be using simpson ties as it is in an earthquake zone. dunno?
Sometimes screws are used when attaching plywood subflooring to joists, in order to avoid squeaky floors (that nailing sometimes results in). And, of course, drywall is screwed to wood studs.
But using screws to attach studs to plates, etcetera? Haven't heard of that.
if you use screws that have an ICC report and select screws with equivalent capacities as nails, there isn't any reason why you couldn't substitute them for nails.
...i would rather screw with a drill then hammer by hand.
on the house i worked on, we first started to use nails...... but since the firm was in nyc and we were in michigan and it was sort of like a design/build as you go, we changed to screws...
the arch changed alot of stuff in the process simply because it wouldnt work or they changed their minds..... we ended up used the deckmate screws and simpson ties on alot of things........
and remember when you do residential..... to know the "actual" thickness of lumber/etc...... being off by .5 to .75 isnt cool
so we had to double check everything and make adjustments....luckily we had a good crew of 5 people.............. but still had to send it back to the archs...then they had to beatch and "approve" the right way....then they would change it.....etc........
we did use nails on a few things.... such as sistering up a joist or for stacking up blocking......firestops/etc....
b
The stick framing I am refering to is wood, and they are using them for studs and joists.
"they could be using simpson ties as it is in an earthquake zone. dunno?"
- Im pretty sure most simpson ties used in wood framing require nails.
The earthquake thing is actually what concerns me. Most screws have a catastrophic failure, they snap. It is almost impossible to snap a nail.
As far as screw vs nailing, it probably takes 3x as long and you are dependant on batteries or a power source. Just seems very "amature" to me.
lets hope they are using sheer stress screws
i've used screws for interiors, actually it works pretty well. don't think i'd use it for structural. maybe there is a new product out there?
deckmate screws are fairly tough.......
good thing about screws is that they hold....... nails can work themselves out ...
if they are using drywall screws then i would really be concerned.....
i know i have snapped the bit driver for the deckmates before i even snapped a deckmate screw....
b
I know for a fact Simpson uses Screws in 120 mph wind condition design....I know because I have seen it. They actually make a
screw gun for anchoring floor sheathing with screws. Yes they are
better than nails in withdrawl....If you don't believe me back one out
just a bit from the finish surface and try to pull it out with a clawhammer....tough little buggers those screws are.
yeah...that floor screw gun rocks balls
add that clip and just fire away......
also easy on the back........ and being 6'3.... anything low really sucks
b
I dont disagree with the screwing in of flooring. Have you ever toe "nailed" (screwed) a stud to a plate, or toe screwed a joist to a top plate? This is the area that I am most curious about.
snook_dude - are those aplications for H-clips or joist hangers?
another side note - I think these contractors are idiots, so I want to call them on something. ulterior motivies one might say...
if you have "good" carpenters then they will know how the read the grain and hit the right angle for toe-ing......
you dont really toe-in on the end grain if you can avoid it.......mainly from the sides and about 1.0-1.5"high and a 45-30degree angle or so
b
Toe-screwing sounds a little "screwy" to me. But I'd trust the fasteners. While some screws are vulnerable to torque failure while being driven, this wouldn't necessarily translate to failure once in place. . .
get some pics if you can.... i can help if needed......not really 100% on earthquake/hurricane codes since i'm in michigan...
b
"if you have "good" carpenters then they will know how the read the grain and hit the right angle for toe-ing......"
This is the first addition they have ever done! Dont know if that qualifies for good...
Unfortunetly the person who could potentially be my boss has way less experiance then me and another co-worker, but he is stubburn and "knows" the right way to do EVERYTHING
I LOVE that feeling !
[oh -- sarcastic wednesday is tomorrow. . .]
well.... i guess you can wait for the inspector to swing by and make some noise.....
borderline dangerous (seismically) is my guess. having looked, it's difficult/impossible to find data on screws and comparative malleability is a concern. i sat through a seismic retrofit class (as a home owner) and screws were explicitly prohibited for attachment of shear panels. the instructor said that if you're in a basement during an earthquake that right after the event an exposed nail head of a shear panel should be hot to the touch -the heat generated by the movement of the nail. it concerns me that a screw wouldn't behave this way.
yeah...cause the nails are prolly friction sliding on the lumber/plates.....
have you ever drivin in a nail then pulled it out right after..... they can heat up really quick......
i believe the stock shaft of a deckmate screw is the size of a framing nail..... it's been a few years since i measured them up
b
The California Building Code has a nailing schedule which lists all the nail types that are required for Type V construction (stick framing).
Screws ain't allowed...
The ultimate in anti-earthquake building, no nails, no screws, no glue just members slotting into each other.
silverlake,
where does it say screws aren't allowed?
vindingo, perhaps more interestingly, what do you think this contractor is doing? is he doing it intentionally? is he trying slow the work? has anyone questioned him on it? also, what did you have in your spec?
vindigo,
have you talked to the contractor about your concern?
have you talked to building department or inspector about your concern?
el jeffe, the fastening schedule of the CBC (table 2304.9.1) stipulates all structural nailing to be common or box nails, except where otherwise stated.
2007 CBC allows for 14 gauge staples now in lieu of nails, but there's no allowance for screws...
why would anybody screw where should be nailed? the whole volumes of calculations and tests and practice and materials manufacturing and tools and prices and etc., are based on nails.
i can understand using screws instead of nails on drywall installation etc. but type 5 framing calls for nails not screws.
i can only imagine some weekend hobbyist trying to build a doghouse w/ screws.
"Stick with what you know," huh ?
Cabinetmakers know the advantages of screws. I recently replaced some exterior siding and trim, and used Grabbers which I sunk and (exterior) spackled. I was making 45-degree miters and working with a wavy building. Screws allowed me to selectively remove and adjust shims, and to bring wet-caulked miters gently and accurately together as I proceeded.
Not framing, I acknowledge. . .
mitered siding on corners. nice!
silverlake,
that table is prescriptive.
the code allows you to deviate if supported by calculations & reports to the building official's satisfaction.
i'm not arguing in favor of screws, just that i don't agree that they're prohibited.
I know for hurricane use screws are typically not accepted (typically). Screws can be used for interiors and where works are intended to be temporary. They do leave less of a mess when removed.
i can see screws passing the test on metal plate to wood applications ,like hold downs and some metal hangers but framing stud to framing stud??
there are no tools developed to put in 2.5" screw as rapid as nail gun. or is there? can you imagine the cost because of the time? but really, i think structural considerations would trump all.
sips are fastened with screws.
I wonder why screws would be considered less safe in hurricane conditions. Surely the withdrawal resistance is greater. Could tests have shown shear strength is less ?
Carpenters are using hammer-drills now for driving screws. Far less breakage and cam-out, and they sink like butter. Noisy, though. . .
SABS mops the flor with SIPS
meaning monolithic GFRC skin coated EPS stands up to 400mph winds under ICC-ES testing
i think the concern is the shear on the the head of the screw....
unless the hurricane/codes want the structure to shift during it....hmmmm.....
ask a structures teacher or an engineer and see what they have to say.....
screws diameter are measured to the teeth not the core, as such of a similar dimension to a nail it would be a smaller diameter and thus more likely to shear. That's what I was taught and shown with wtl scenarios
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