Evil,
While it would be an important and strategic military effort to secure and control the last remaining body of fresh water on earth, those urban centers within the region are so systemically paternalist that 'it' could never compete with China. You'd have to force people to work in factories, or import workers, and people won't work when you force them to.
At one time people of the great Lakes were happy to go to work and happy to participate in the industrial economy. They were told over and over they were being screwed by the man - rise up and overcome and all that bullshit. So now you have places like Detroit where theyve lost over 1 million people since 1950. Ya - looks like the man was what was keeping your way of life going after all.
I think this is rock bottom. Every small scale machine operation that can relocate has basically relocated. The manufacturing thats left is heavy industry that cant move or is more sophisticated manufacturing with robotics and such. A smarter factory if you will.
My fear however is manufacturing is coming back - but this time in Texas
50% (of those employed) in Chicago are employed by the government or recieve their income from the government in one form or another. Not sure about the other urban centers - Milwaukee is pretty bad, too.
i will say that while the rest of the country is suffering through hurricanes, tornados, floods, heat waves, etc., detroit has had one of the most beautiful winters and springs i can remember since moving here (knock on wood). now if it weren't for our gansta mayor, low graduation rate, and crime problem, this might be paradise.
Your right too Poz about the taxes - Chicago is on a mission to tax production based business out of the city. Its by design. They move the manufacturing to the burbs or more rurla cities in the midwest and the factory workers will follow. Whats left is rich white folks who like to pay high taxes and poor black people working for the government and voting democrat every time. its a sick sick system theyve created at the exspense of American business prowess and the middle class.
The great lakes are not polluted. Lake michigan is very clean and rain replenished. Im sure there are bays where theres some pollution but its generally safe and clean. The biggest problem in Lake Michigan is seagull droppings which can cause freshwater bacteria to form in hot still waters near shore like found on a sunny, no wind august day at chicago beaches. But thats a natural pollution.
Superior is crystal clean.
I think the pollution is more on Lake Erie where there was certainly some big time industrial dumping going on until the recent past. I know the harbour at Zion,IL had a major PCB contamination in the 70's.
But what do you think is going on in China? ive seen pictures of black rivers. At our worst we never polluted that badly or on that scale. Could you imagine if Chinese mfr had to follow clean air standards as set forth by Amercia, regardless of the Kyoto protocol? Or pay something resembling fair wages?
i've swam/kayaked in them all my life. in general, the system is not polluted. biggest environmental issue is introduced species like zebra mussels, which actually have improved the quality of the water itself while reaking havoc on the rest of the ecosystem. of course the colorado river is so much cleaner that even the water has been cleaned out of it since it doesn't reach the ocean anymore. and don't get me started about tempe "town lake". talk about don't drink the water. hell as it evaporates 10' a year, you could probably replenish your thirst only by standing next to it.
hey James Elmore Lake AKA 'tempe town lake' does bring all kinds of life and repairian areas back. they say something about the # of bird spieces etc. it was intended to be much bigger and integrated with the new light rail more. one day....
good to hear things being clean. maybe one day i will get up to Canacagohisconsianagan, an area of the country i have never been.
I think you missed bossman's point, Anti, which is that it's a man-made lake.
In a desert.
It may be making "riparian areas" but they sure as hell aren't natural ones! And I say this as a 20-year resident of said desert, who watched dry washes rush briefly with water 2-3 times a year only, during monsoon season. No lakes.
also, it is important to note that asu never intended it to be a lake. the original proposal was to restore a section of the salt river, complete with natural, native riparian zones. when phoenix developers got a hold of it, they turned it into a lake, due to the possiblity of valuable "beach front property" (see below). many peopel think the salt river is naturally dry. note that, before the salt river project, the river flowed aaaallll year long, which adds a certain irony to the two inflatable dams that were installed to build the lake. this is why as the story goes dean munier stormed out of the final presentation for the lake, and why as an asu student, you should hate it as well. i know i sure do. i'm going to go hayduke on those fuckin things one day.
no it used to be naturally flowing before dammed up upstream at the Roosevelt and other dams and creating this body of water now helps a little to restore what used to happen kinda not really. think floods like egypt but phoenix.
"But what do you think is going on in China? i've seen pictures of black rivers. At our worst we never polluted that badly or on that scale. Could you imagine if Chinese mfr had to follow clean air standards as set forth by America, regardless of the Kyoto protocol? Or pay something resembling fair wages?"
have you ever heard of the 'Superfund'? it's all about fixing up huge, extremely polluted river, lakes, reservoirs, land-fills, etc that have existed in America, at least since the 1880's. these are all over the USA, and the rivers are not just black; they are mostly red, yellow and green - being arsenic, lead, sulphur, cadmium, and a few other savory toxic materials.
exactly what would be a fair wage in China, where the cost of living doesn't include the need for 4-wheel drives and SUVs?
and exactly which clean air standards is it that the current administration is advocating or supporting? the same one about letting wholesale drilling along any coast in the USA for a few more gallons of gas for those Detroit wheels??
no, just saying that China's heavy pollution has mostly happened in the last 20 years, as it attempts (and aspires) to a US-inspired reality of consumer satisfaction.
to then condemn China as somehow being beyond the pale is neither historically correct nor socially equitable given the distance it has had to travel in a much shorter period of time. i.e., why are the goal-post fixed in all countries based on a USA world-view?
of course i agree china must be taken into context. and i understand that there is more to pollution than just "smog." but seeing that giant brown cloud over asia makes me wonder what western nations can really do to curb global warming in the coming century, especially considering how clear the air is above america's factory floor (of course - on the day this picture was taken). i wonder though how much of it is just about moral principles rather than actual pragmattic concerns regarding environmental quality. history considered, it isn't fair to condemn china. but they are largely the immediate problem, whatever anyone says about bush's policies, and they are a problem for everyone. and we need them. it will be an interesting 92 years. anyway...the great lakes at least are blue again. it has been a long time since the cuyahoga river caught fire.
The great lakes have always been blue, and green, and grey. Really i dont think theyve ever been polluted - theres been parts that are, but theyre so huge - They are essentialy seas.
My husband was born/grew up in Traverse City, so I've been many times. He'll take Angus up for Cherry Festival while I'm in Kentucky over the Fourth.
We seriously considered buying his grandmother's house there when she died 2.5 years ago, but the finances just weren't realistic. But we have talked about moving there many times. The place is booming with summer residents expanding into being full-time residents, but outside the city there is still a sort of frontier mentality that we both like. But I'm not sure either of us could find a satisfying job there, it's not exactly a hotbed of architectural/artistic thought!
the difference between the east side of lake michiganistan and the west side is that on the west side much of the lakefront is public while on the east side most of its private.
I had a profound debate with my nephew the other day about which was the west coast and which was the east coast (On lake michigan) As with the west Coast of Continental U.S. the water is to the left, So is it the East Bank And the West Coast at the same time? Is the West Bank and the East Coast the same? We concluded that the whole darn shoreline should be officially known as the Third Coast.
actually lb if you can break into the market, you can make a lot of money in high-end res in the tc area. what exists is mostly traditional architecture, but i think what salmela is doing in duluth is a pretty good precident for what could happen in northern/western michigan. you should go lb. the biggest problem with architecture in northern michigan is not that their isn't anything to be done, just that no one ever does anything.
evilp, that photo of the two beacons is extraordinarily beautiful, almost as beautiful as that bottle of third coast beer. and what is with the latest wierd yooper conspiracy theory of government submarines spying on the great lakes?
Canacagohisconsianagan
Evil - The last two photos aren't showing up. What about Duluth, MN?
Duluth - Iron Ore Capital of the World, where the big freighters go
Argh - the seas were rough off Duluth that day. The waves were 10 feet if they were a foot i tell ya, eh.
evil its been nice to know Ya!
ft. wayne, indiana...if hitler wanted to blow it up, it should be on the list
Hmm - Vado your onto something. We should get Gordon to write a national anthem.
Gordon
Duluth - WAS the iron ore capital of the world. this is now held by a number of ports in Australia.
baer field in fort wayne was the primary training field for bomber pilots in ww2.
Evil,
While it would be an important and strategic military effort to secure and control the last remaining body of fresh water on earth, those urban centers within the region are so systemically paternalist that 'it' could never compete with China. You'd have to force people to work in factories, or import workers, and people won't work when you force them to.
At one time people of the great Lakes were happy to go to work and happy to participate in the industrial economy. They were told over and over they were being screwed by the man - rise up and overcome and all that bullshit. So now you have places like Detroit where theyve lost over 1 million people since 1950. Ya - looks like the man was what was keeping your way of life going after all.
I think this is rock bottom. Every small scale machine operation that can relocate has basically relocated. The manufacturing thats left is heavy industry that cant move or is more sophisticated manufacturing with robotics and such. A smarter factory if you will.
My fear however is manufacturing is coming back - but this time in Texas
Definitely not in Chicago, Tax-Consumer capital of the world.
50% (of those employed) in Chicago are employed by the government or recieve their income from the government in one form or another. Not sure about the other urban centers - Milwaukee is pretty bad, too.
...Between 1967 and 1987, Chicago lost 60 percent (over 500,000) of its manufacturing jobs
i will say that while the rest of the country is suffering through hurricanes, tornados, floods, heat waves, etc., detroit has had one of the most beautiful winters and springs i can remember since moving here (knock on wood). now if it weren't for our gansta mayor, low graduation rate, and crime problem, this might be paradise.
Since I already have Canacagohisconsianagan citizenship, I see a move to Traverse City in my future.
You see, my husband and I have only ever lived together in cities with 12-letter names.
Why buck a good trend? We're off to Traverse City!
seriously, lb?
we should have a 'necter meet up in TC, maybe at michael moore's film festival. the big news in TC is that madonna is going to be there this year.
Your right too Poz about the taxes - Chicago is on a mission to tax production based business out of the city. Its by design. They move the manufacturing to the burbs or more rurla cities in the midwest and the factory workers will follow. Whats left is rich white folks who like to pay high taxes and poor black people working for the government and voting democrat every time. its a sick sick system theyve created at the exspense of American business prowess and the middle class.
my dad made more per hour workin at bethleham steel 25 years ago than i make now.
just don't drink the water
I made more money 12 years ago as a Single Electrician than I do now as a Married Father Architect....but I have no regrets.
The great lakes are not polluted. Lake michigan is very clean and rain replenished. Im sure there are bays where theres some pollution but its generally safe and clean. The biggest problem in Lake Michigan is seagull droppings which can cause freshwater bacteria to form in hot still waters near shore like found on a sunny, no wind august day at chicago beaches. But thats a natural pollution.
Superior is crystal clean.
I think the pollution is more on Lake Erie where there was certainly some big time industrial dumping going on until the recent past. I know the harbour at Zion,IL had a major PCB contamination in the 70's.
But what do you think is going on in China? ive seen pictures of black rivers. At our worst we never polluted that badly or on that scale. Could you imagine if Chinese mfr had to follow clean air standards as set forth by Amercia, regardless of the Kyoto protocol? Or pay something resembling fair wages?
but do you swim in them?
the reason i like the desert: no natural disasters and low insects
Azlan is going to be just as autonomous as Canacagohisconsianagan?
i've swam/kayaked in them all my life. in general, the system is not polluted. biggest environmental issue is introduced species like zebra mussels, which actually have improved the quality of the water itself while reaking havoc on the rest of the ecosystem. of course the colorado river is so much cleaner that even the water has been cleaned out of it since it doesn't reach the ocean anymore. and don't get me started about tempe "town lake". talk about don't drink the water. hell as it evaporates 10' a year, you could probably replenish your thirst only by standing next to it.
i agree with the inclusion of Duluth in Canacagohisconsianagan.
What about Minneapolis? do we get all of Minnesota??
i love duluth...
i love minneapolis...
sufjan stevens would swim across lake michigan...
yeah, gangsta mayor needs to go
hey James Elmore Lake AKA 'tempe town lake' does bring all kinds of life and repairian areas back. they say something about the # of bird spieces etc. it was intended to be much bigger and integrated with the new light rail more. one day....
good to hear things being clean. maybe one day i will get up to Canacagohisconsianagan, an area of the country i have never been.
I think you missed bossman's point, Anti, which is that it's a man-made lake.
In a desert.
It may be making "riparian areas" but they sure as hell aren't natural ones! And I say this as a 20-year resident of said desert, who watched dry washes rush briefly with water 2-3 times a year only, during monsoon season. No lakes.
riparianewass is more like it.
also, it is important to note that asu never intended it to be a lake. the original proposal was to restore a section of the salt river, complete with natural, native riparian zones. when phoenix developers got a hold of it, they turned it into a lake, due to the possiblity of valuable "beach front property" (see below). many peopel think the salt river is naturally dry. note that, before the salt river project, the river flowed aaaallll year long, which adds a certain irony to the two inflatable dams that were installed to build the lake. this is why as the story goes dean munier stormed out of the final presentation for the lake, and why as an asu student, you should hate it as well. i know i sure do. i'm going to go hayduke on those fuckin things one day.
no it used to be naturally flowing before dammed up upstream at the Roosevelt and other dams and creating this body of water now helps a little to restore what used to happen kinda not really. think floods like egypt but phoenix.
ya what le bossman said
"But what do you think is going on in China? i've seen pictures of black rivers. At our worst we never polluted that badly or on that scale. Could you imagine if Chinese mfr had to follow clean air standards as set forth by America, regardless of the Kyoto protocol? Or pay something resembling fair wages?"
have you ever heard of the 'Superfund'? it's all about fixing up huge, extremely polluted river, lakes, reservoirs, land-fills, etc that have existed in America, at least since the 1880's. these are all over the USA, and the rivers are not just black; they are mostly red, yellow and green - being arsenic, lead, sulphur, cadmium, and a few other savory toxic materials.
exactly what would be a fair wage in China, where the cost of living doesn't include the need for 4-wheel drives and SUVs?
and exactly which clean air standards is it that the current administration is advocating or supporting? the same one about letting wholesale drilling along any coast in the USA for a few more gallons of gas for those Detroit wheels??
all nations have some pollution. no offense here but are you trying to say that china does a better job with their's than the US?
no, just saying that China's heavy pollution has mostly happened in the last 20 years, as it attempts (and aspires) to a US-inspired reality of consumer satisfaction.
to then condemn China as somehow being beyond the pale is neither historically correct nor socially equitable given the distance it has had to travel in a much shorter period of time. i.e., why are the goal-post fixed in all countries based on a USA world-view?
lets go to war with china and force them to go green who's down?
no but wait aren't they practically our slaves?
or wait they are our masters.
what a bad situation to be in huh!
of course i agree china must be taken into context. and i understand that there is more to pollution than just "smog." but seeing that giant brown cloud over asia makes me wonder what western nations can really do to curb global warming in the coming century, especially considering how clear the air is above america's factory floor (of course - on the day this picture was taken). i wonder though how much of it is just about moral principles rather than actual pragmattic concerns regarding environmental quality. history considered, it isn't fair to condemn china. but they are largely the immediate problem, whatever anyone says about bush's policies, and they are a problem for everyone. and we need them. it will be an interesting 92 years. anyway...the great lakes at least are blue again. it has been a long time since the cuyahoga river caught fire.
The great lakes have always been blue, and green, and grey. Really i dont think theyve ever been polluted - theres been parts that are, but theyre so huge - They are essentialy seas.
Admire the beauty.
will people who do NOT possess a canacagohisconsianaganastan passport quit trying to hijack this thread.
I love Traverse City. You been there, lb? Maybe I will go for the festival this year.
My husband was born/grew up in Traverse City, so I've been many times. He'll take Angus up for Cherry Festival while I'm in Kentucky over the Fourth.
We seriously considered buying his grandmother's house there when she died 2.5 years ago, but the finances just weren't realistic. But we have talked about moving there many times. The place is booming with summer residents expanding into being full-time residents, but outside the city there is still a sort of frontier mentality that we both like. But I'm not sure either of us could find a satisfying job there, it's not exactly a hotbed of architectural/artistic thought!
But then, neither is Naptown. Sigh.
Well LB it just so happens that the west coast of Mich. is teaming with high end residential projects I hear. Maybe there is a good market after all?
the difference between the east side of lake michiganistan and the west side is that on the west side much of the lakefront is public while on the east side most of its private.
I had a profound debate with my nephew the other day about which was the west coast and which was the east coast (On lake michigan) As with the west Coast of Continental U.S. the water is to the left, So is it the East Bank And the West Coast at the same time? Is the West Bank and the East Coast the same? We concluded that the whole darn shoreline should be officially known as the Third Coast.
actually lb if you can break into the market, you can make a lot of money in high-end res in the tc area. what exists is mostly traditional architecture, but i think what salmela is doing in duluth is a pretty good precident for what could happen in northern/western michigan. you should go lb. the biggest problem with architecture in northern michigan is not that their isn't anything to be done, just that no one ever does anything.
evilp, that photo of the two beacons is extraordinarily beautiful, almost as beautiful as that bottle of third coast beer. and what is with the latest wierd yooper conspiracy theory of government submarines spying on the great lakes?
I wish the other photos posted but alas, we are doomed to cut paste Html 1997 posting technologies. Why do you scorn me archinect!!!!
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