i think the embargo has given Cuba some independence from the past
American overseen / controlled government... but things are still not perfect.. i dont know if lifting the embargo would be a good thing or not.
in my opinion the socialist government seems to be working well for cuba. like i said. its not perfect. but it works. the people seem to be happy with their government and they live long healthy lives. cuba has a great FREE healthcare system, good free education, and healthy clean food.
i think the best government is 50% socialist, 50% capitalist - maybe lifting the embargo would get cuba there.
for some of the poor countries of the world. i think socialism would help the situation.. given they have a good leader. Che had the right idea. he got things done. Some developing countries could use someone who has devotion to get things done.
shaner. ever been to cuba? i dont exactly know how you could argue that things there seem to be working. but hey only been there a half dozen times or so.
funny story about che. he held my friends grandfather (american businessman) at gunpoint during the revolution.
call me simplistic, but cuba is one case where obama's predilection toward 'hey, why don't we talk to them?' seems like it could make a lot of sense. this stupid standoff has been going on way too long...
Steven - I have to admit when I first heard Obama's "I want to talk to them" speech I was very skeptical. However, I agree that in the case of Cuba it might work. Still skeptical that talking to Iran or N. Korea would yield anything in the interest of the USA.
I do think Raul is slowing stepping Cuba in the right direction. Abandoning the salary equality is an example. Sounds very similar to Gorbachev in the early 90's. Best hopes for a smooth transition.
shaner - if the communist gov't of cuba was working so well wouldn't it be the American's floating across the Florida straights trying to make it to Cuba? I know many Canadians that have spent holiday there, and while I'm told it's a beautiful country, the people live in poverty. Simple things like crayons for school children aren't even available, thus tourists smuggle them in for children. Is that success? It's far too easy to look at things you like (gov't healtcare) and look past the opression.
Also being from a third world country and having visited Cuba a few times (despite my spelling mistake), I can say that the embargo whilst it has forced the island to be self-dependent consuming mostly what they make, and successfully exporting. To say that the migration is any scale of their success would be false, many Americans and Europeans are still immigrating for financial reasons to Cuba and other places of the Caribbean...its usually a chance for a new life economic or social.
But the socialist policies about free education, healthcare, etc have only now been adopted by other countries as a good thing and sometimes necessary.
I generally try not to partake in political threads on Archinect, but...
aqua - Why are you skeptical that talking to N. Korea would yield anything in the interest of the US? Since I know enough of the topic, I would argue that is not the case. While the US "helps" other countries, there always have been not-so-innocent intentions (OIL for example). In the case of N Korea, its pretty clear and out in the open that US's intentions are to remove N Korea as a threat to the US since there is no material gain. Removing the threat while reducing the humanitarian rights violations (freedom of speech and freedom to meet their own families across the border that they haven't seen about 50 years) and hunger would be a huge plus. Yeah, there is no economical gain, but something like that changes the perception of the US always doing something for its own gain under the guise of "helping."
And with the small size and the disconnect with the rest of the world, something like the president of US going over to talk as a symbol of diplomacy is huge. Did you see the New York Philharmonic went to PyongYang and made a huge wave across the country? You think a president going over there would make less of an impact? Considering the situation in the Koreas as one of the last remaining vestiges of The Cold War, something as small as "talking" will make a huge impact.
I mean what are the alternatives? Not talk to them and label them as "evil" like Bush did like a 3rd grader?
It's so comforting to know that if I'm ever kidnapped by terrorists my country won't negotiate on my behalf. Somehow negotiating my swift and safe release makes us look weaker than letting them string me up in the town square of some third world country. Never quite got that whole "we don't negotiate with the evildoers" thing. Knowing that ideology is placed above safety and welfare of US citizens is a big reason I opted not to do Peace Corps or any other volunteering abroad. If they don't have my back I'm not sure I want to have theirs. I hope our next administration changes this.
The problem is 4arch is "if you give a mouse a cookie, he's gonna ask for a glass of milk". If we gave in to every demand terrorists made of us, we'd be in a pretty bad situation.
first of, i think in almost all these situations, obama is right about talking to other nations. it's time we stop overthrowing middle eastern governments (democracies and totalitarian regimes alike), and start talking. it's called diplomacy, it's been around for several thousand years, and it works quite well.
furthermore, even right-wingers like my senator (hopefully not for long), john sununu support lifting the embargo.
finally, i think it's foolish for us to think we can sum up cuba's government simply as successful b/c of its health and education (highest literacy rate in the world, i believe) or unsuccessful because of refugees or being on the human rights watch list (don't forget what other country is on there). neither pure socialism nor pure capitalism work, and as americans we hate to admit it but sometimes for some countries, democracy does not work. it's a hard notion to accept, and one that i would hope most countries will come to overcome, but some nations in the world are not suited in their current states to a governmental structure as instable and flexible as a democracy. and i'm sure the pure capitalists and pure socialists could come up with equally compelling arguments as to why either che or the businessman grandfather were heros or tyrants.
it's foolish to think there's a simple answer, but it's especially foolish not to talk to each other about it and come to some mutual understanding. this is what we need to do in global diplomacy, and this is why we must end the era of cowboy diplomacy and unilateralism. i know it worked well for rome and the british empire, but i'm worried it could be our downfall.
Philarch - Why are you skeptical that talking to N. Korea would yield anything in the interest of the US?
Well, you said the magic word - interest of the US. I'm not trying to justify Bush's "will not negotiate w/terrorists" message. All I'm saying is that talking to Raul and opening Cuba has a direct benefit to the US. Puddles mentioned developers, but there are many close benefits. Rich agriculture close to home, large immigrant population in the USA, even eased strain on immigration as presumably there would be less Cuban refugees.
I do think Raul has more incentive to work with the US vs. Iran or N. Korea, partly thanks to geography, but I also think he's more reasonable than Iran or N. Korea. Hey, I could be proved wrong, just my opinion.
4arch - It's so comforting to know that if I'm ever kidnapped by terrorists my country won't negotiate on my behalf
The US State Department does more for US citizens abroad that any other country in the world. You can find numerous articles about Canadians or Europeans fraduently accused of crime in 3rd world nations and their native countries helping very little. While American's aren't always liked around the globe, I am thankful that should something happen to me the US Gov't is generally very good at helping American's out.
benefits: (1) cigars, (2) revival of u.s. airline industry by now offering flights to havana. for all their talk of free markets, neocons are actually quite in favor of restricting trade
aquapura - I guess my point is that even though there is no immediate material gain it will be beneficial in the long run. Its this short-sightedness that has gotten the US where it is now.
Havanna Obama
could be the best news about his likely presidency
its havana
old news
i think the embargo has given Cuba some independence from the past
American overseen / controlled government... but things are still not perfect.. i dont know if lifting the embargo would be a good thing or not.
in my opinion the socialist government seems to be working well for cuba. like i said. its not perfect. but it works. the people seem to be happy with their government and they live long healthy lives. cuba has a great FREE healthcare system, good free education, and healthy clean food.
i think the best government is 50% socialist, 50% capitalist - maybe lifting the embargo would get cuba there.
for some of the poor countries of the world. i think socialism would help the situation.. given they have a good leader. Che had the right idea. he got things done. Some developing countries could use someone who has devotion to get things done.
shaner. ever been to cuba? i dont exactly know how you could argue that things there seem to be working. but hey only been there a half dozen times or so.
funny story about che. he held my friends grandfather (american businessman) at gunpoint during the revolution.
god bless dual citizenship
call me simplistic, but cuba is one case where obama's predilection toward 'hey, why don't we talk to them?' seems like it could make a lot of sense. this stupid standoff has been going on way too long...
What about this...
[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7449776.stm]Cuba to abandon salary equality
[/url]
Steven - I have to admit when I first heard Obama's "I want to talk to them" speech I was very skeptical. However, I agree that in the case of Cuba it might work. Still skeptical that talking to Iran or N. Korea would yield anything in the interest of the USA.
I do think Raul is slowing stepping Cuba in the right direction. Abandoning the salary equality is an example. Sounds very similar to Gorbachev in the early 90's. Best hopes for a smooth transition.
shaner - if the communist gov't of cuba was working so well wouldn't it be the American's floating across the Florida straights trying to make it to Cuba? I know many Canadians that have spent holiday there, and while I'm told it's a beautiful country, the people live in poverty. Simple things like crayons for school children aren't even available, thus tourists smuggle them in for children. Is that success? It's far too easy to look at things you like (gov't healtcare) and look past the opression.
Also being from a third world country and having visited Cuba a few times (despite my spelling mistake), I can say that the embargo whilst it has forced the island to be self-dependent consuming mostly what they make, and successfully exporting. To say that the migration is any scale of their success would be false, many Americans and Europeans are still immigrating for financial reasons to Cuba and other places of the Caribbean...its usually a chance for a new life economic or social.
But the socialist policies about free education, healthcare, etc have only now been adopted by other countries as a good thing and sometimes necessary.
I generally try not to partake in political threads on Archinect, but...
aqua - Why are you skeptical that talking to N. Korea would yield anything in the interest of the US? Since I know enough of the topic, I would argue that is not the case. While the US "helps" other countries, there always have been not-so-innocent intentions (OIL for example). In the case of N Korea, its pretty clear and out in the open that US's intentions are to remove N Korea as a threat to the US since there is no material gain. Removing the threat while reducing the humanitarian rights violations (freedom of speech and freedom to meet their own families across the border that they haven't seen about 50 years) and hunger would be a huge plus. Yeah, there is no economical gain, but something like that changes the perception of the US always doing something for its own gain under the guise of "helping."
And with the small size and the disconnect with the rest of the world, something like the president of US going over to talk as a symbol of diplomacy is huge. Did you see the New York Philharmonic went to PyongYang and made a huge wave across the country? You think a president going over there would make less of an impact? Considering the situation in the Koreas as one of the last remaining vestiges of The Cold War, something as small as "talking" will make a huge impact.
I mean what are the alternatives? Not talk to them and label them as "evil" like Bush did like a 3rd grader?
It's so comforting to know that if I'm ever kidnapped by terrorists my country won't negotiate on my behalf. Somehow negotiating my swift and safe release makes us look weaker than letting them string me up in the town square of some third world country. Never quite got that whole "we don't negotiate with the evildoers" thing. Knowing that ideology is placed above safety and welfare of US citizens is a big reason I opted not to do Peace Corps or any other volunteering abroad. If they don't have my back I'm not sure I want to have theirs. I hope our next administration changes this.
The problem is 4arch is "if you give a mouse a cookie, he's gonna ask for a glass of milk". If we gave in to every demand terrorists made of us, we'd be in a pretty bad situation.
first of, i think in almost all these situations, obama is right about talking to other nations. it's time we stop overthrowing middle eastern governments (democracies and totalitarian regimes alike), and start talking. it's called diplomacy, it's been around for several thousand years, and it works quite well.
furthermore, even right-wingers like my senator (hopefully not for long), john sununu support lifting the embargo.
finally, i think it's foolish for us to think we can sum up cuba's government simply as successful b/c of its health and education (highest literacy rate in the world, i believe) or unsuccessful because of refugees or being on the human rights watch list (don't forget what other country is on there). neither pure socialism nor pure capitalism work, and as americans we hate to admit it but sometimes for some countries, democracy does not work. it's a hard notion to accept, and one that i would hope most countries will come to overcome, but some nations in the world are not suited in their current states to a governmental structure as instable and flexible as a democracy. and i'm sure the pure capitalists and pure socialists could come up with equally compelling arguments as to why either che or the businessman grandfather were heros or tyrants.
it's foolish to think there's a simple answer, but it's especially foolish not to talk to each other about it and come to some mutual understanding. this is what we need to do in global diplomacy, and this is why we must end the era of cowboy diplomacy and unilateralism. i know it worked well for rome and the british empire, but i'm worried it could be our downfall.
cuba is going to be a gold mine for real estate developers once it opens up to the u.s.
Philarch - Why are you skeptical that talking to N. Korea would yield anything in the interest of the US?
Well, you said the magic word - interest of the US. I'm not trying to justify Bush's "will not negotiate w/terrorists" message. All I'm saying is that talking to Raul and opening Cuba has a direct benefit to the US. Puddles mentioned developers, but there are many close benefits. Rich agriculture close to home, large immigrant population in the USA, even eased strain on immigration as presumably there would be less Cuban refugees.
I do think Raul has more incentive to work with the US vs. Iran or N. Korea, partly thanks to geography, but I also think he's more reasonable than Iran or N. Korea. Hey, I could be proved wrong, just my opinion.
4arch - It's so comforting to know that if I'm ever kidnapped by terrorists my country won't negotiate on my behalf
The US State Department does more for US citizens abroad that any other country in the world. You can find numerous articles about Canadians or Europeans fraduently accused of crime in 3rd world nations and their native countries helping very little. While American's aren't always liked around the globe, I am thankful that should something happen to me the US Gov't is generally very good at helping American's out.
benefits: (1) cigars, (2) revival of u.s. airline industry by now offering flights to havana. for all their talk of free markets, neocons are actually quite in favor of restricting trade
aquapura - I guess my point is that even though there is no immediate material gain it will be beneficial in the long run. Its this short-sightedness that has gotten the US where it is now.
aquapura are you saying that Americans that committ crimes in third world countries shouldn't suffer the consequences? I hope not.
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