god, just take a job, get your license and start your own firm so you don't have to do shitty t.i.'s

so ... you think we have this pile of money set aside with your name on it so we can bring you on board, whether we need you or not?

I know -- I'll fire somebody who actually can do something here in the office so I can give you a job that's, without doubt, your "entitlement".

c'mon kid - get a grip. we'll hire you a) if we have a need, and b) if you have something to offer.

kenpcho, congrats for finishing your education, but I gotta tell ya, school's over; you go and earn it.
Good luck.

3 easy steps:

1) Find the firm you like and let them low-ball you on salary.
2) Make yourself invaluable.
3) Tell them to double your salary or you walk.

is the job market really that bad???

it seems like there are new faces every week at the office?

keep working at it. it just takes time to find the job.

work people you know. if you don't know anyone, start knocking on doors. give them a face, not an email

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to sound like a member of the "I-deserve-it" generation that I unfortunately am a part of. But thank you for the advise. I will continue to make an effort.

Try finding a job in 2000 - everyone else was making money but arch firms were getting burned left and right by non payments. Then if you did have a job 911 killed a lot of that. I remember 2000, 20001 and 2002 being pretty fragile. Albeit worse for older architects who seem to have disappeared nowdays unless they are some ownership stake.

And from what Ive heard - 78,79,80,81,82 - architectural unemployment was running 50%

"so ... you think we have this pile of money set aside with your name on it so we can bring you on board, whether we need you or not?"

um, let's see...

where in the post does the author actually *indicate* that he is *entitled* to a job?

i think not.

c'mon digger. *you* get a grip. don't be so harsh on new grads. everyone's been there before. just remember, they might be the ones carrying you sometime down the road.

Those years after graduating can be aggravating. Even desolate in the wrong economic conditions. Whats worse is - you have an idea about how to make things cool and you have to get in line behind some boring designs. The pay scale is in your favor. There isn't much need for anyone beyond 5 years of experience. What you do with a year or 2 of experience is drawing which is all anyone does until they have a stamp. Even then, you still draw. A lot of firms need someone that just draws and you can do that cheaper than anyone at this point in your career. Have you been in an office yet? There is a principle and his henchmen that design and manage projects. Everyone else is drawing and maybe at the higher end they are pushing 8 1/2x11 documents. The more experienced of that group simply costs more. In fact the paradigm has been that the older ones draw slower. Drawing is a knuckle head task based labor that can get you a job. Sure - it is not what an ambitious graduate would consider. It is a start if you can't find anything. When you get smacked with a comment like "if we need you" there is an answer for you - drawing is a skill and they need it. BTW offices like to hand out 'business smacks' like that all the time. Drawing has to be one of the easiest jobs out there for the money you get. Where else are you going to get paid to listen to music and draw pictures all day? You don't even have to really do anything except click a mouse and collect a paycheck. Firms have a need for really stupid drones, so do that while you set your sights higher.

Hmm.

My point may have come across harsher than I intended - for that I apologize. I'm tremendously sympathetic to the difficulties of finding work these days - and I try to help where I can. I've hired two recent grads in the past month.

What struck a nerve in the original post was a sense conveyed that employers could simply add staff on a whim.

These are starting to be tough economic times for employers too. Those grads who find work are the ones who can demonstrate the ability to contribute and convey a sense that their pay is somehow tied to the economic well being of the firm.

get your MBA

school is more fun, keeps dreams alive and could actually help your future

Just take a job man. There will be a 80% chance it will be shitty.

The market has cooled down a little since last year but firms are still hiring. So you may as well get a job, and fasten your seatbelt until this economic situation we are in now is over.

God, the Carter years sounded like sheer hell. No wonder we've only had one democrat in the white house in the past 28 some odd years.

I like Obama - but I really hope he breaks with the democratic, big domestic spending mantra and gets a pro business stance. Good for business is good for everyone. The world economy is teetering on a precipous and we dont need bullshit economics tipping over the edge. Hillary would be even worse. In fact despite what people think, G-Dub while seemingly not too bright has a done good at keeping us out of terrible finacial panic - think post 911 - that could have been much worse, our bad martage debt is largely held around the world and our banks while exposed are not going to be ruined. The low dollar is keeping production going barely.

Carter's response to problems was go throw on a cadigan and some James Taylor and start lovin your lady right

learn some humility - just take a job - and if you can, take a job working under a really excellent project manager. You will need to learn more from PMs during your first few years than any designer will ever be able to teach you.

be a sponge, and if you really want to do design work - invent projects for yourself - enter into competitions with friends - find other opportunities to pursue your interests - eventually something will come your way.

it typically takes 2 to 4 months to find a job. so patience is a good professional skill to start practicing. get a job at starbucks for the meantime, at least you'll get free coffee and have health insurance.

just cause you have a degree doesn't mean you have employable skilz. figure out what your professional abilities and deficiencies are now, before you over sell yourself and get fired.

its easy to get a job once you have a job... take a crap architecture job if you need to then start looking for a better one...

agree with the fact that it's easier to get a job once you have one. been there, done that. patience too. it's just the times.

so grads... be patient, take a job - any job, and then look for something better.

but since digger seems to know the market quite well from an employer's side of things... what are your views on folks that may have taken a starbucks job and then kept looking for something in architecture? do these people get dinged because they didn't start out with architecture right out of school?

perhaps this could be a separate discussion...

I wouldn't be too picky now. The market isn't doing that well and billings are at an all time low since the billing index started. I have been glancing at the job listings on craigslist and the aia website and there is not that many posted. There is about 50% less postings than there was 6 months ago.

bay area -

being the employer, let me tell you it isn't all roses for almost anyone right now. i don't think any reasonable firm is going to look at someone taking a non-architecture job right now as an inherent negative. my wife, waaaaay back, took 8-12 months to find her first gig it was so bad (and she had merrill elam helping to try and find her something - go figure). a few years later, she could get a job just about anywhere she wanted she was so valuable technically.

that said

IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR A JOB RIGHT NOW:

be humble, patient, do your research on the firms you're applying to, be really flexible, and be willing to do whatever they ask, not just what you want. firms of all sizes and locales are having issues right now - the well is definitely lower than it was last year this time. acting like you're god's gift to a firm is not going to go over well....

From someone stuck in between the 'entitlement generation' and gen-x: You might have to start out at $15/hr, maybe even less but it's not forever and if you work hard, prove you're an I'll-get-it-done person, have good drawing skills, and good coordination skills, you'll start to move up quickly. You'll learn just as much from Joe Architect as you will a slick, glossy, designer firm. 2 to 3 months is pretty reasonable to get a job and 6 months isn't out of the question. Good luck!

having worked in our profession for more than 30 years now, I've seen the economic cycle bash us back and forth too many time to count. what sticks in my mind after all these swings is the idea that the cycle doesn't strike in a uniform manner nationwide. while the general trend may be down right now, there are still market sectors (e.g. health care, higher ed, high-end hospitality) that remain strong.

there also tends to be significant regional differences -- jobs probably are hard to find in Detroit and Cleveland, while many of the sunbelt cities (Houston, Atlanta, Southern California) continue to offer a meaningful number of employment opportunities.

I would argue that it's important to be flexible about relocation if you really want to work in architecture ... be willing to go where the jobs are ... the career center at AIA.org currently list 438 job openings ... the states of Idaho, Iowa, Minnesota, Kansas and Wyoming together show a grand total of 5 job openings. However, California, New York, Texas, Virginia and North Carolina together show 201 job openings.

it's better to go where you can find a job in architecture ... much better than taking a job at Starbucks while you wait for the economy to rebound in your area. if nothing else, you'll be learning something about your craft - even if it's not necessarily in a firm that meets all of your expectations.

laru - great insights. i think the poster will be a bit more relieved to hear that. it's just that the times are so bad - i was out for about a year myself. i am sure there are many other new grads out there running into the same issue, and advice like that would give these new grads more direction.

and here i thought kansas and iowa were full of boom towns.

j/k phoenix is the shit

I followed my wife (then girlfriend) out east back in 2001. I thought could find work easily because I had been offered several positions in the Midwest before I finished school (from a few critics who had attended my reviews). it took me 6 months and a whole lot of resumes before I landed a job at a firm. in the meantime I worked at a picture-framing place - I had one weekday off per week and would take that day to show up at firms or cold-call.

I still haven't gotten over how poorly I was treated at some offices when I'd show up. however - there were a few firms that were extremely helpful to me during this period - they didn't have a position, but they would call their friends at other offices and help set up interviews. There was one principal who called me up a few times to check in to see how my job search was going and offer words of encouragement. I still keep in touch with some of these people, even though I've never worked for them.

it's a lot of hard work, but if you present yourself well and get your face out there, you'll land something good eventually.

seriously is the market for jobs really that bad for everyone?

i'm being very serious when i say i see a new face just about every week....

is the firm i work at really that much of the exception? we did go from about 450 when i arrived to over 1000 now 3 years later- supported mostly by overseas work- but the domestic offices have been doing very well too through out the east coast and mid west...

i think the market depends, as everyone is saying. certain sectors are absolutely dead here (atl), most of the counties/municipalities are getting whiggy about their projects unless the funding is rock solid, and even the state cut out most of the large university projects for this year's funding cycle. that, coupled with a very large (400+) AE firm literally imploding (we've heard 140+ of that have already been let go), is going to flood our market with a lot of experience, with less local work going on.

firms that are heavily overseas or in other parts of the country are probably doing better than most. larger firms seem to be having a better go of it than the smaller firms (in general). but, yes, it's pretty rough right now.

My only advice is if you take a less than stellar position and three months in you get "a better gig." Don't take it if you are fresh out of school w/ no experience.

You should stay for at least a year-(indentured servitude wages excepted).

The firm that takes you in is making an investment in you. Don't screw w/ that b/c this is a small world and word will get out.

if you are able to move about, then don't fixate on your current location.

currently, there is an abundance of work in europe, middle east, china and australia. in each place, employers can not find enough good staff to handle the work. salaries have increased by about 20% in the last 4 years.

instead of sitting in the States complaining, go out and find the work that is out there. the USA is no longer the centre of the universe.

USA = Last Best Hope - Dont Forget it

I am new here, but from my experiences so far, it IS that hard to find a job. I have been looking for 5 months now and I have had only a few interviews with no luck.

I currently live in Canada but I want to get licensed (eventually) in the US. I don’t want to take just any job here because I want to start chipping away at the IDP process as soon as I can.

I don’t know if making a big move for a less than perfect job makes sense to me. I am not picky about location, but I am about the firms I want to work for. It is also really hard to make contact (other that e-mail) with firms that are in a different city. Can anyone offer any words of wisdom or strategies that have worked for them? I am really struggling here.

what's wrong with taking a job that's not your dream job, while you figure out how to get in with the place you really want?

It's tough to get a job. It's tougher to get a job with no experience. So instead of "waiting for the perfect" job that won't hire you anyway (because you have no experience), you're letting valuable time go by, wasted because you think you're too good to take just any job. You could be getting the experience you need and on your way to that better job right NOW. But you sit and complain about it, which will get you exactly nowhere.

Does anybody else see the problem with this attitude? Cry me a river.

Best thing to do while you are looking or waiting is learn more. Take advantage of downtime by either furthering your current skills, making a better portfolio or learning something new that could help you (business, real estate, graphic design, etc., etc.).
Make a decent website (keep it siiiiimple!) and get some quality work online, quickest/cheapest way to show people. If you lack something in your portfolio, make it, don't wait for someone to assign a great project.

Wasting time is the worst thing you can do.

the perfect job is not the first one!
usually your first job sucks! the cool thing is instead of just being a tracing CADmonkey use the time to learn what everyone is doing! i have yet to see a school that teaches everything you need to know in the profession (nor should they!!!) this is what you first job is all about.

try markets as someone had suggested....i.e. school firms or build outs or spec houses...something that is hot in your city. and just learn. usually bigger more corporate firm are going to absorb the expense it is to teach you. understand that...you cost a lot of money as a new grad!

finally, don't work too much! participate in competitions, volunteer...whatever that is really your hope in life. do it on your time!

good luck

there is no dream job the second you leave school
you will have to work your way up wherever you go
so as long as you dont expect to be the head designer and have everyone follow your design ideas right away, you should be fine

pay your dues, learn as much as you can, and you will be able to find your dream job that much quicker
it might even be at that first place you work

Thanks for the advice guys. I guess I am just stuck in the mentality that to be the best you have to surround yourself with the best. For me, I could care less what my actual job is (I know my place as a recent grad) as long as I have the exposure to a good firm.

Am I wrong to assume that experience at a great firm is worth more than any place that will hire me?

its probably worth more

depends how long you would have to wait before you find that great firm

in a market that is running short on jobs, you have to be careful how picky you are

experience at an OK firm is better than no experience at all
and you can always switch jobs when a better one comes along

- it depends on what you mean by "great firm" .... what may be 'great' to you isn't necessarily going to mean 'great' to some future employer - or even to you down the road.

In the end, it tends to boil down to what you hope to accomplish in your career and what role(s) you see yourself filling during that time. Your early job(s) should help prepare you for what you hope to become.

I know young practitioners who have no interest whatsoever in the technical or business side of practice ... they tend to look for jobs that are all about design, which is okay, i guess. But, somewhere down the line, they may to want to start their own firm, or tackle a different role in a bigger firm. As has been admitted many times here before, a surprising number of folks reach that stage in their careers and find out they know nothing useful about the technical or business side of practice ... and, by then, it's kinda hard to get caught up.

also remember a big part of getting a job is also personality and how you present yourself... you might be a great designer...or not... depending on how you come off on the phone, in person or even in an email can mean alot...

i'm more or less the jr. HR talent search person for my office and i can say potential candidates live and die by how they come off... i don't care how good of a designer you look like on paper (because thats all i see in a portfolio) if you seem like a shitty person i'm not going to give you the time of day...

someone who doesn't appear to be the best designer in the world but seems like they work well with others and are enthusiastic and sometimes even fun gets much farther...

coming out of school i was pretty confident in my design skills but i pretty much know now 3 years in that i've gotten alot of opportunities because of personality and that people like working with me...

so keep that in mind

I agree with meta and everybody else, there are lots of different kinds of jobs out there, thankfully. Do you only dream one dream?

And yes, A-Torture is also correct, it's all about personality and attitude.