I browsed through the salary poll but wanted to see if anyone had additional insight on the typical salary structure for principals particularly in Manhattan (though any location would be helpful). What percentage bonus/profit sharing is typical? Any thoughts on a base salary with 20 years of experience at this level?
i don't mean to come across as snarky, but a lot depends on some very key particulars - how big is the firm, what are their dominant markets, how long have they been around, what was their financial performance the last 5-10 years, what is a typical profit margin for those years, etc.
a partnership at a more corporate office like som could probably expect a base salary north of 160k (junior partnership), not including benefits, with a ranging bonus depending on your contributions. typical profit pool is probably 20-30% each year. what your 'buy-in' is and how long the payback period is may vary (you would probably have to put in some capital, which could either be fronted or deducted from bonuses over a period of time).
some places have esops, some that are far smaller (say 20 people) may or may not have a steeper buy-in - a lot depends on the current principals. are they getting older and looking to cash out? if so, they may have a very inflated notion as to what the firm is worth. what is their backlog and contact list like? were they at 40 people a couple of years ago (a clear warning sign that it isn't 'flowing' like it once did').
if you're setting up your own firm, whatever rules you want to apply can apply. just get the work and make sure everyone gets paid on time. whatever you have leftover is your 'salary'....
From the most recent (2005) AIA Compensation Survey:
National Compensation Range for Principals and Partners - average compensation including bonuses, profit sharing, and other incentive compensation:
Under 10 employees: $96,400 to $119,400
10 to 19 employees: $96,000 to $163,300
20 to 49 employees: $110,500 to $205,100
50 to 99 employees: $116,600 to $233,400
100 to 249 employees: $122,700 to $229,400
250 or more employees: $125,700 to $321,800
Base salaries tend to be in the range of 60% to 72% of total compensation amounts, with the percentage going lower as the firms increase in size.
However, as laru suggests above, there can be tremendous variation, depending on seniority and ownership share.
I am very new to the profession - so many of you know my salary range. Obviously I never get into discussion of any sorts about salaries and compensation with anyone. But these figures are starting to put things into perspective.
I'm probably not the type of person who will be a principle or partner. But I'm wondering if anyone has the same kind of figures on architects who are project managers, associates or senior associates.
The AIA publishes a periodic national compensation survey for the profession. A new one is due to be released here fairly soon. When it is published, it will be available for purchase (by anybody) from AIA's website. However, note that if you're not a member, be prepared to pay more than the member price (last time, the member price was $50 / the non-member price was $225).)
This survey looks at a standard list of positions within the profession and also aggregates data by state and major city.
You may be able to view a copy of the prior survey at your local AIA offices ... I think (but don't know for sure) that most local components have a copy available for reference.
That survey is a goldmine of reference information.
When I went on the job market a couple of years back (after many underpaid years in a small firm), I had utterly no idea how much I was worth. It took a lot of digging around to get some kind of comparable salary information. (This included scrolling through page after endless page on Archintect's old & unimproved Salary Poll... when's the new one coming, folks?)
Thanks for the link, jafidler. Let go and let Google, I always say...
It's probably not a good idea to use a salary survey to determine "how much I'm worth" ... unless you think of yourself as a commodity, like wheat or corn.
All a salary survey can do is provide general guidance. All surveys are based on average, and incomplete, data. No two design professionals have the same ability, the same taste, the same talent, the same experience, the same potential. for those reasons, the survey data must be interpreted to conform to the difference.
All a salary survey can do is give you - and the prospective employer - a starting place for an informed conversation. Hopefully, that conversation can involve a certain amount of objectivity.
Yes, what you said, Quiz. I was giving the shorthand version.
But, honestly, I had absolutely no idea of even the _range_ someone with my resume' might command. Without some tenacious digging, I'd now be making only 2/3 of where I ended up.
The only reason I included it is that we each have our years of experience and various credentials to bring to the table when talking about compensation, as Quiz aptly points out.
In any case... If I truly cared about money, I would be in another field.
Besides, not to sell my self short, but I don't really see myself as principal or partner material (not now at least). I'm the loyal employee that will make sure things get done (If I have anything to do about it) type.
In my experience, we all really do care about money, just not enough to do what's necessary to make a lot of it.
Whether it's the result of our genetic makeup or our training, we tend to be much more concerned about professional satisfaction and the enjoyment of our work experience. We're also mightily concerned about leaving monuments to our talent. If we have a choice between turning the sheet loose or keeping it on our desk another day in order to squeeze out that last .00001% of refinement, we'll almost always choose the latter.
One of the things I love about architecture - and architects - is the notion that "almost right is good enough" never seems to enter our brains. However, as the manager of a firm, I can tell you there's a terrible economic impact associated with that sort of thinking.
You don't have to answer this if you don't want to. But are you content with being "one of those guys" and are you content with the compensation? Just curious.
Quizzical,
Like I said, having that kind of loot would be nice. I understand I have to work hard and wait a long time before I can expect it but that's fine with me. I agree with you about everything. The profession and the education associated with it is what we find rewarding. I'm fine with that and I feel the same way. I come from a very modest background anyway (hell it was even subsistence level at one point) but had a very fun and happy time which was the most important part.
But it seems to me that our architect salaries are now beginning to get back to the levels of respectability as other professionals out there. It's more money that I've ever made and it's more money than many of my friends make.
I think being loyal and making sure that work gets done are two extremely important attributes for any employee to have. So, I'm fine with that. My compensation is now pretty good, coming from a small firm to a large one during a booming economy. No complaints there, either.
For me, however, it has to be about doing interesting work with nice and talented people. Good money is good, but, for me, even great money won't offset being bored at work alongside dolts or backstabbers.
Salary Structure for Principals
I browsed through the salary poll but wanted to see if anyone had additional insight on the typical salary structure for principals particularly in Manhattan (though any location would be helpful). What percentage bonus/profit sharing is typical? Any thoughts on a base salary with 20 years of experience at this level?
transept -
i don't mean to come across as snarky, but a lot depends on some very key particulars - how big is the firm, what are their dominant markets, how long have they been around, what was their financial performance the last 5-10 years, what is a typical profit margin for those years, etc.
a partnership at a more corporate office like som could probably expect a base salary north of 160k (junior partnership), not including benefits, with a ranging bonus depending on your contributions. typical profit pool is probably 20-30% each year. what your 'buy-in' is and how long the payback period is may vary (you would probably have to put in some capital, which could either be fronted or deducted from bonuses over a period of time).
some places have esops, some that are far smaller (say 20 people) may or may not have a steeper buy-in - a lot depends on the current principals. are they getting older and looking to cash out? if so, they may have a very inflated notion as to what the firm is worth. what is their backlog and contact list like? were they at 40 people a couple of years ago (a clear warning sign that it isn't 'flowing' like it once did').
if you're setting up your own firm, whatever rules you want to apply can apply. just get the work and make sure everyone gets paid on time. whatever you have leftover is your 'salary'....
From the most recent (2005) AIA Compensation Survey:
National Compensation Range for Principals and Partners - average compensation including bonuses, profit sharing, and other incentive compensation:
Under 10 employees: $96,400 to $119,400
10 to 19 employees: $96,000 to $163,300
20 to 49 employees: $110,500 to $205,100
50 to 99 employees: $116,600 to $233,400
100 to 249 employees: $122,700 to $229,400
250 or more employees: $125,700 to $321,800
Base salaries tend to be in the range of 60% to 72% of total compensation amounts, with the percentage going lower as the firms increase in size.
However, as laru suggests above, there can be tremendous variation, depending on seniority and ownership share.
I am very new to the profession - so many of you know my salary range. Obviously I never get into discussion of any sorts about salaries and compensation with anyone. But these figures are starting to put things into perspective.
I'm probably not the type of person who will be a principle or partner. But I'm wondering if anyone has the same kind of figures on architects who are project managers, associates or senior associates.
damn I can't even spell 'principal' right -- no wonder I'll never be one.
thanks guys, you've been extremely helpful !
Archmed:
The AIA publishes a periodic national compensation survey for the profession. A new one is due to be released here fairly soon. When it is published, it will be available for purchase (by anybody) from AIA's website. However, note that if you're not a member, be prepared to pay more than the member price (last time, the member price was $50 / the non-member price was $225).)
This survey looks at a standard list of positions within the profession and also aggregates data by state and major city.
You may be able to view a copy of the prior survey at your local AIA offices ... I think (but don't know for sure) that most local components have a copy available for reference.
Good luck.
jafidler -- good deal -- I didn't know the 2005 survey had moved into the public domain.
That survey is a goldmine of reference information.
When I went on the job market a couple of years back (after many underpaid years in a small firm), I had utterly no idea how much I was worth. It took a lot of digging around to get some kind of comparable salary information. (This included scrolling through page after endless page on Archintect's old & unimproved Salary Poll... when's the new one coming, folks?)
Thanks for the link, jafidler. Let go and let Google, I always say...
It's probably not a good idea to use a salary survey to determine "how much I'm worth" ... unless you think of yourself as a commodity, like wheat or corn.
All a salary survey can do is provide general guidance. All surveys are based on average, and incomplete, data. No two design professionals have the same ability, the same taste, the same talent, the same experience, the same potential. for those reasons, the survey data must be interpreted to conform to the difference.
All a salary survey can do is give you - and the prospective employer - a starting place for an informed conversation. Hopefully, that conversation can involve a certain amount of objectivity.
Yes, what you said, Quiz. I was giving the shorthand version.
But, honestly, I had absolutely no idea of even the _range_ someone with my resume' might command. Without some tenacious digging, I'd now be making only 2/3 of where I ended up.
It pays to do some research.
I can't wait to making that kind of loot.
Archmed, the formula is simple...
1. finish internship
2. get licensed
3. get master's
4. get PhD
5. work for two decades in the process
PhD? Seriously?
I've never met anyone in a position of seniority at a firm who has a PhD.
That's actually another story, for another time
The only reason I included it is that we each have our years of experience and various credentials to bring to the table when talking about compensation, as Quiz aptly points out.
In any case... If I truly cared about money, I would be in another field.
Besides, not to sell my self short, but I don't really see myself as principal or partner material (not now at least). I'm the loyal employee that will make sure things get done (If I have anything to do about it) type.
A good firm has to have those too, you know.
You're quite right, and I've been one of those for twenty years now...
In my experience, we all really do care about money, just not enough to do what's necessary to make a lot of it.
Whether it's the result of our genetic makeup or our training, we tend to be much more concerned about professional satisfaction and the enjoyment of our work experience. We're also mightily concerned about leaving monuments to our talent. If we have a choice between turning the sheet loose or keeping it on our desk another day in order to squeeze out that last .00001% of refinement, we'll almost always choose the latter.
One of the things I love about architecture - and architects - is the notion that "almost right is good enough" never seems to enter our brains. However, as the manager of a firm, I can tell you there's a terrible economic impact associated with that sort of thinking.
Citizen,
You don't have to answer this if you don't want to. But are you content with being "one of those guys" and are you content with the compensation? Just curious.
Quizzical,
Like I said, having that kind of loot would be nice. I understand I have to work hard and wait a long time before I can expect it but that's fine with me. I agree with you about everything. The profession and the education associated with it is what we find rewarding. I'm fine with that and I feel the same way. I come from a very modest background anyway (hell it was even subsistence level at one point) but had a very fun and happy time which was the most important part.
But it seems to me that our architect salaries are now beginning to get back to the levels of respectability as other professionals out there. It's more money that I've ever made and it's more money than many of my friends make.
Archmed,
I think being loyal and making sure that work gets done are two extremely important attributes for any employee to have. So, I'm fine with that. My compensation is now pretty good, coming from a small firm to a large one during a booming economy. No complaints there, either.
For me, however, it has to be about doing interesting work with nice and talented people. Good money is good, but, for me, even great money won't offset being bored at work alongside dolts or backstabbers.
Good answer. That is where I would like to see myself down the stretch.
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