did anyone tell her that she couldn't use myspace? if not, then tell her not to. plus, it's not possible to download anything larger than a jpg from myspace.
Frankly, you can get viruses doing anything on the net, I would just tell my employees that even though they will surf at work (everybody does a little) that they should not surf sites known for security issues of which myspace ranks pretty high. I think the embarassment is probably punishment enough.
Every firm in this day in age needs extensive anti-virus and anti adware and spyware protection.
If a mainsteam site like myspace can crash an entire network (which I'm still having a hard time beleiving), there are some serious flaws the IT support that you have.
That said, architecture firms need access to the internet. However there are some firms that have internal software like Symantec and such that blocks certain sites. If they want to resort to such draconian rules, so be it.
I dont know what we have but it seems pretty good. We've never had problems with the network asside from it going down in spells of five minutes or so once in a great while. We seem to have good IT people too that correct any screw ups that happen rather quickly.
but i heard the Boston Market was crashing....(sorry could not stop myself)
If myspace can crash your system, there is something seriously wrong, as someone else also pointed out. In any case, you need good antivirus AND firewall software. If you can afford it, get a hardware firewall that sits between the modem and router. Those are the most secure....
1. The employee didn't actually break your office rules in any way.
2. Anyone with any savvy is skeptical that this was the cause anyway: a MySpace page doesn't generally lend itself to automated downloads and things of that nature. Seems more likely to be a firewall issue with your new server? Or at the very least, a combination of the two issues.
3. You're annoyed and want to exact a strong(er) punishment because the guy is rolling with the punches.
Frankly, the employee's response ("water off a duck") is exactly what it should be. I've worked in a place with a draconian internet policy, all it does it breed an "us vs. them" mentality and remind your employees daily that you don't trust them to get their work done if MySpace is an option. Treat them like adults, not some misbehaving tweens.
I mean, really, the guy got blindsided by a virus on a page that you would never expect it from (if we are to believe your tech's assessment). He didn't break any rules, he didn't maliciously cause damage, and you've actually considered firing him? Jeesh.
it's important that a firm make its IT and internet policies clear to the staff ... it's also important that those policies be appropriate to your situation. but, once the policies have been made clear, they must be enforced with fairness and consistency. otherwise, you don't have any meaningful policies
there's a tendency for staff everywhere to feel that these marvelous technical resources that firm's pay to provide are their own personal technology. when that attitude becomes pervasive, the whole issue becomes pretty problematic.
"you don't trust them to get their work done" -- it's hard for a generation that grew up amidst pervasive technology to understand how hard it was to dick-off in an office before everybody had a computer. back then, if you weren't drawing or writting specs, it was obvious to everybody -- not so today. this has made the "trust" issue so very difficult because it's truly hard to define objective standards for output and productivity.
dsc_arc, you seem to be disappointed in that he is proceeding with work as normal. What you should ask yourself is what you would want him to do. Should he be extremely apologetic for something that he seems to have had limited control over? How long should he be apologetic - a few days, a month?
To be honest, it seems like you are taking something out on an innocent employee when in fact it was a fault in your internal rules and computer system.
I think the problem I am having is setting the social networking benchmark for the firm.
Part of the issue is gen x vs gen y. My gen x'ers don't dick off ever. Personal calls are rare. Gen y occasionaly take personal calls during meetings or tell me very late (morning of) for denstist appointments.
I think I am more diasapointed that in a formal dress down he did not take it more seriously.
Lastly, my space usage is a trust issue. How much is too much? Should it be banned?
dsc, the gen x versus gen y thing is a really good point. i think gen x-ers get more annoyed with stuff like im-ing, taking cell phone calls at work, and myspacing than people of an older generation do. it drives me up the wall when interns are just chatting away on the phone with friends or when i see an im window open.
i like quizzical's take on this - clearly state what the rules are in the office (it's up to you how tough you want to be; you are the boss), and then hold everyone to them, but i don't think you should target this individual for this isolated, if damaging, incident.
i've been in a situation where X's would rat out the Y's who were texting/surfing to the boss - then turn around and take their daily 2 hr lunch break. fucked up to say the least.
that being said, i don't think it's fair to either myspace OR stand around/chat if you're going to bolt out the door at 5. if said office is 9-5, it's pretty obvious you should check your email once an hour and leave it that. if you're already putting in a 12 hour day, i think it's ok to get on the internet (every now and then) for a small break.
I can't belive you don't have MySpace blocked. Get Websence or something similar and block all social networking websites. That is not what internet access in the workplace is for. Also, block all web based email. That is a big time gateway for viruses into your office. No major companies allow Hotmail or Gmail access. This is all very basic IS&T protocol these days.
It amazes me that architecture firms are so loose with their technology regulations. I have co-workers that have itunes loaded on their work computers. Things like that create nightmares for IT and is why large companies lock down shit like this. It's not about "us vs. them," it's about running a business and being the most productive you can with your resources at hand. Down time for 1 person in IT or the whole office costs money.
Plenty of major companies allow webmail access. Virus protection should happen at the router/server level, if you're worried about individual website, you'll just be playing whack-a-mole as new problems crop up. You're way better off just watching for viruses at the gate.
Blocking access to webmail or chat would be incredibly shortsighted. Right now, in my gchat contact list, I've got direct access to good friends in architecture offices all across the country, and the world. With gchat, we can, and do, ask each other quick questions about all kinds of professional, technical, and design issues.
This is a time when the professional and social worlds are getting inextricably mixed. If you see this as 'shit' that must be 'locked down', then you're going to lose access to important sources of connection and information.
If you can argue that webmail should be blocked at the office, then I can argue that the office number should be blocked on my cellphone.
occasionally i would use gchat to ask my pm questions since they were on the other side of the office. it was quick and didn't subject those around me to additional 'noise'. there's big difference btw getting on your email and getting on myspace (which is just flat out inappropriate in an office).
Virus protection does happen at the server level, however even the best systems aren't flawless. Hence you should also limit the potential hazards that can filter into the individual workstation.
Web based email cannot filtered message by message on the server level as company based email is, and viruses can be attached to emails in Hotmail/Gmail that go straight past even the best web virus protection. The web based email guys have gotten better at filtering out the junk, but you still are relying on their systems, not internal ones. If a company allows access to sites like that it only means they haven't had an incident yet.
You're forgetting that gmail, at this point, has got it's own filter down pat. I get no spam. Period. Nothing gets through gmail at all.
The only other issue is one of educating your staff, here in 2008, anybody that uses a computer should know that you just don't click on attachments from unsolicited emails. But again, that's -if- the bad guys get through gmail, which, and this is actually really amazing now that I think about it, never seems to happen.
The benefits of connectivity far outweigh the risks. And again, if the office can call me at home, then my friends should be able to get in touch with me at the office. How is it different?
That said you should get phone calls...I even have trillian open as many of my friends are also technical bad asses so, I have support for many applications and scenarios at my finger tips.
I still think that sites like Myspace are completely different...they are purely socialized entertainment...if people are abusing sites, block them at your router...it is very easy to do and will stop any unwanted surfing immediately.
None of us young whippersnappers are suggesting that there is a solid ACLU case for MySpace rights at work.
Also, the most disturbing comments in the thread have been the sweeping generalizations about the young whippersnappers, the middle-aged Xers, and the fogeys. Sweeping generalizations are by definition, specifically inaccurate.
As for the assertions that a safety first attitude is a legitimate route, I can't argue with you there. But there are always costs. And ignoring the mindset that sets in when you're being babysat instead of managed doesn't make it go away. In this situation (as it's been explained very openly by DSC... thanks for clearly stating the problem and being open to viewpoints), there hasn't been an infraction that requires babysitting! It's not as if the actions were exceptionally irresponsible, it's not as if anyone's actions were malicious, and it's not (atleast by DSC's explainations) as if the employee was missing deadlines because of excessive breaks.
Now, the issue of being at a firm that pays overtime introduces another ripple. It breaks down the financial responsibility of the office into 40 hour increments, and how "break time" needs to be factored into that by the employee (ie not including a 10 minute break as billable hours, regardless of whether that break was spent smoking, sitting, or browsing networking sites). This has to do with the quality of young hires your firm collects and the general culture of the firm, NOT whether or not the URL for MySpace gets blocked between 8:30 and 5:00.
In my little corner of the world, anything over 40 hours I might as well consider charity work for the firm. That type of attitude, however, is poisonous to my motivation, so I choose to focus on the fact that I am paid a salary to complete tasks, big and small, and the number 40 is relatively inconsequential as anything but a guideline. DSC, what is the general mindset of your average employee? Are you actually going to get much more out of them by cutting off a couple of websites? I haven't really seen productivity as a part of your argument. At most, it's secondary (in this case) to network security.
On a side note, the biggest reason IT guys across the world wince when you mention iTunes is NOT security, it's bandwidth. iTunes has vulnerabilities, but so does any software which accesses the internet (think software update notices from Autodesk, Rhino, etc). The real problem is with sharing files and streaming radio. Bandwidth aint cheap. Also, in larger offices with a more cover-your-ass approach, liability and deniability concerning legal or illegal music can also factor in.
Similar issues with webmail... I hear you on the backdoor around the office email's virus protection, but let's remember that it's not as if you can get a virus by opening a GMail message. Anybody downloading executables from unknown senders is a dolt and more of a liability to the office than a virus or worm.
I do see both sides of this issue. My abrupt "firing" comment was somewhat glib. But the attitude of the employee not being concerned is disconcerting. Is the employee otherwise a productive person who is a plus to the office? Does your whole office goof off half the week then cash in on the overtime? I guess the bottom line is whether or not deadlines are met and the work is of good quality. if that is the case then cut people some slack. If the jobs aren't profitable from people taking advantage, then maybe its time to clean house and set an example.
The internet is a part of everything we do now. You have to be able to do some amount of surfing just to function. I try to keep my office computer use to work related issues only, but I still occasionally just need to look something up thats personel. There are some people who abuse this and I get a bit miffed at when I am asked to work overtime (I refuse almost all overtime) when I know my colleagues have wasted a good part of the week goofing off.
I hear a lot about entitlement these days. I've had jobs where I read magazines and surfed all day but that was from lack of work. The job would have been intolerable if there wasn't something to fill the day. However, most jobs I have had there has been PLENTY to do and I would just a s soon work hard and then go home, I don't need to spend much time entertaining myself. I do enjoy my work. My present employer takes it to extreme though, if you are chatting for more than a minute somebody walks by you and glares at you till you get back to work. It's pretty abnormal not to be allowed to take a break every hour or so for a few minutes.
"In my little corner of the world, anything over 40 hours I might as well consider charity work for the firm..."
-just because you are on salary don't expect to work 40 hours. that's exactly why you are on salary so you can work more and not get paid for it.-
in this day and age its pretty impossible not to have access to the net. we download details and spec sheets all the time, interact with official agencies via the web, download local codes etc.
myspace penalty....
What schould the penalty be for being on myspace at work, catching a virus that crippled the office server by down loading a quarter terabyte of info.
It took the tech 4 hours to fix the problem. During thos time the entire staff could not use their computers.
Any ideas?
Firing?
tempted...
did anyone tell her that she couldn't use myspace? if not, then tell her not to. plus, it's not possible to download anything larger than a jpg from myspace.
2-minute minor.
the other employees have probably already taken him / her out for drinks because they didnt have to draft for 4hrs, so that is out of the question...
Frankly, you can get viruses doing anything on the net, I would just tell my employees that even though they will surf at work (everybody does a little) that they should not surf sites known for security issues of which myspace ranks pretty high. I think the embarassment is probably punishment enough.
how about a better IT person? better virus software?
block the site internally.
fire the tech, took him too long to fix the shit.
Every firm in this day in age needs extensive anti-virus and anti adware and spyware protection.
If a mainsteam site like myspace can crash an entire network (which I'm still having a hard time beleiving), there are some serious flaws the IT support that you have.
That said, architecture firms need access to the internet. However there are some firms that have internal software like Symantec and such that blocks certain sites. If they want to resort to such draconian rules, so be it.
i had symantec, it leaks... i'm using AVG now.
i was fired from my previous two jobs because archinect crashed the office system...oops
I dont know what we have but it seems pretty good. We've never had problems with the network asside from it going down in spells of five minutes or so once in a great while. We seem to have good IT people too that correct any screw ups that happen rather quickly.
......tight ass
get a mac.
lolerz
Make them buy Boston Market meatloaf for everyone in the office for a whole week.
but i heard the Boston Market was crashing....(sorry could not stop myself)
If myspace can crash your system, there is something seriously wrong, as someone else also pointed out. In any case, you need good antivirus AND firewall software. If you can afford it, get a hardware firewall that sits between the modem and router. Those are the most secure....
There was is a qualifier here.
The tech had just put on the new server online and we had agv running on the client stations. the tech was the one who brought it to my attention.
We do have a policy of internet usage. Probably a bit too liberal.
The employee has had to have his system reloaded (hence the switch from to agv).
The office has now brow beat him but I feel that he is treating it like water off a duck.
What are some ideas for consequnces if there is a next time?
So, from what you've told us.....
1. The employee didn't actually break your office rules in any way.
2. Anyone with any savvy is skeptical that this was the cause anyway: a MySpace page doesn't generally lend itself to automated downloads and things of that nature. Seems more likely to be a firewall issue with your new server? Or at the very least, a combination of the two issues.
3. You're annoyed and want to exact a strong(er) punishment because the guy is rolling with the punches.
Frankly, the employee's response ("water off a duck") is exactly what it should be. I've worked in a place with a draconian internet policy, all it does it breed an "us vs. them" mentality and remind your employees daily that you don't trust them to get their work done if MySpace is an option. Treat them like adults, not some misbehaving tweens.
I mean, really, the guy got blindsided by a virus on a page that you would never expect it from (if we are to believe your tech's assessment). He didn't break any rules, he didn't maliciously cause damage, and you've actually considered firing him? Jeesh.
.mm
it's important that a firm make its IT and internet policies clear to the staff ... it's also important that those policies be appropriate to your situation. but, once the policies have been made clear, they must be enforced with fairness and consistency. otherwise, you don't have any meaningful policies
there's a tendency for staff everywhere to feel that these marvelous technical resources that firm's pay to provide are their own personal technology. when that attitude becomes pervasive, the whole issue becomes pretty problematic.
"you don't trust them to get their work done" -- it's hard for a generation that grew up amidst pervasive technology to understand how hard it was to dick-off in an office before everybody had a computer. back then, if you weren't drawing or writting specs, it was obvious to everybody -- not so today. this has made the "trust" issue so very difficult because it's truly hard to define objective standards for output and productivity.
dsc_arc, you seem to be disappointed in that he is proceeding with work as normal. What you should ask yourself is what you would want him to do. Should he be extremely apologetic for something that he seems to have had limited control over? How long should he be apologetic - a few days, a month?
To be honest, it seems like you are taking something out on an innocent employee when in fact it was a fault in your internal rules and computer system.
I think the problem I am having is setting the social networking benchmark for the firm.
Part of the issue is gen x vs gen y. My gen x'ers don't dick off ever. Personal calls are rare. Gen y occasionaly take personal calls during meetings or tell me very late (morning of) for denstist appointments.
I think I am more diasapointed that in a formal dress down he did not take it more seriously.
Lastly, my space usage is a trust issue. How much is too much? Should it be banned?
dsc, the gen x versus gen y thing is a really good point. i think gen x-ers get more annoyed with stuff like im-ing, taking cell phone calls at work, and myspacing than people of an older generation do. it drives me up the wall when interns are just chatting away on the phone with friends or when i see an im window open.
i like quizzical's take on this - clearly state what the rules are in the office (it's up to you how tough you want to be; you are the boss), and then hold everyone to them, but i don't think you should target this individual for this isolated, if damaging, incident.
i've been in a situation where X's would rat out the Y's who were texting/surfing to the boss - then turn around and take their daily 2 hr lunch break. fucked up to say the least.
that being said, i don't think it's fair to either myspace OR stand around/chat if you're going to bolt out the door at 5. if said office is 9-5, it's pretty obvious you should check your email once an hour and leave it that. if you're already putting in a 12 hour day, i think it's ok to get on the internet (every now and then) for a small break.
establish what type of office you are.
checking non-office email once an hour is a lot!
then again, i tend to sneak a quick glance at archinect when things are loading up on my 'puter
Hey msnbc took this up too!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24529992/
ps. 30 min /day way too much.
before shift. before lunch and after shift ok.
her founding-father arguement is such a non-sequitur its not even funny.
I could probably care less about how my employees operate on the company time as long as they meet deadlines and their work is up to par.
Why does never hear of a study that analyzes just how many trillions of dollars shitty managers cost each year?
you could. But I pay time and one half for overtime.
and we thank ye, dsc
I can't belive you don't have MySpace blocked. Get Websence or something similar and block all social networking websites. That is not what internet access in the workplace is for. Also, block all web based email. That is a big time gateway for viruses into your office. No major companies allow Hotmail or Gmail access. This is all very basic IS&T protocol these days.
It amazes me that architecture firms are so loose with their technology regulations. I have co-workers that have itunes loaded on their work computers. Things like that create nightmares for IT and is why large companies lock down shit like this. It's not about "us vs. them," it's about running a business and being the most productive you can with your resources at hand. Down time for 1 person in IT or the whole office costs money.
Plenty of major companies allow webmail access. Virus protection should happen at the router/server level, if you're worried about individual website, you'll just be playing whack-a-mole as new problems crop up. You're way better off just watching for viruses at the gate.
Blocking access to webmail or chat would be incredibly shortsighted. Right now, in my gchat contact list, I've got direct access to good friends in architecture offices all across the country, and the world. With gchat, we can, and do, ask each other quick questions about all kinds of professional, technical, and design issues.
This is a time when the professional and social worlds are getting inextricably mixed. If you see this as 'shit' that must be 'locked down', then you're going to lose access to important sources of connection and information.
If you can argue that webmail should be blocked at the office, then I can argue that the office number should be blocked on my cellphone.
occasionally i would use gchat to ask my pm questions since they were on the other side of the office. it was quick and didn't subject those around me to additional 'noise'. there's big difference btw getting on your email and getting on myspace (which is just flat out inappropriate in an office).
Virus protection does happen at the server level, however even the best systems aren't flawless. Hence you should also limit the potential hazards that can filter into the individual workstation.
Web based email cannot filtered message by message on the server level as company based email is, and viruses can be attached to emails in Hotmail/Gmail that go straight past even the best web virus protection. The web based email guys have gotten better at filtering out the junk, but you still are relying on their systems, not internal ones. If a company allows access to sites like that it only means they haven't had an incident yet.
You're forgetting that gmail, at this point, has got it's own filter down pat. I get no spam. Period. Nothing gets through gmail at all.
The only other issue is one of educating your staff, here in 2008, anybody that uses a computer should know that you just don't click on attachments from unsolicited emails. But again, that's -if- the bad guys get through gmail, which, and this is actually really amazing now that I think about it, never seems to happen.
The benefits of connectivity far outweigh the risks. And again, if the office can call me at home, then my friends should be able to get in touch with me at the office. How is it different?
Your office pays you and your friends don't
That said you should get phone calls...I even have trillian open as many of my friends are also technical bad asses so, I have support for many applications and scenarios at my finger tips.
I still think that sites like Myspace are completely different...they are purely socialized entertainment...if people are abusing sites, block them at your router...it is very easy to do and will stop any unwanted surfing immediately.
Virus protection does happen at the server level
It can if you set up your environment to be clones working off of a centralized server.
"there's big difference btw getting on your email and getting on myspace (which is just flat out inappropriate in an office)"
Agreed!
embarrassment is, as apurimc said, probably the best punishment.
make said intern wear a dunce cap that says "myspace whore" on it.
Agreed, there's really no excuse for myspace. Archinect, on the other hand ...
time out in corner with Dunce cap displaying FOX logo
nail on the head 765
i'm still trying to figure out the quarter terabyte, aka 250 gigs over an outside line. how long did that take? 6-7 hours? where was IT?
Draconian internet regulations in the office is no way to resolve the problems.
If the internet affects an employee's performance and productivity at work in a negative way, then it would be time to take action.
Get good pc protection for the server. There is no reason for any architecture firm not to have it.
blocking a few sites is not Draconian...If you don't want to work by a companies rules you are always free to quit.
Just a couple of quick notes....
None of us young whippersnappers are suggesting that there is a solid ACLU case for MySpace rights at work.
Also, the most disturbing comments in the thread have been the sweeping generalizations about the young whippersnappers, the middle-aged Xers, and the fogeys. Sweeping generalizations are by definition, specifically inaccurate.
As for the assertions that a safety first attitude is a legitimate route, I can't argue with you there. But there are always costs. And ignoring the mindset that sets in when you're being babysat instead of managed doesn't make it go away. In this situation (as it's been explained very openly by DSC... thanks for clearly stating the problem and being open to viewpoints), there hasn't been an infraction that requires babysitting! It's not as if the actions were exceptionally irresponsible, it's not as if anyone's actions were malicious, and it's not (atleast by DSC's explainations) as if the employee was missing deadlines because of excessive breaks.
Now, the issue of being at a firm that pays overtime introduces another ripple. It breaks down the financial responsibility of the office into 40 hour increments, and how "break time" needs to be factored into that by the employee (ie not including a 10 minute break as billable hours, regardless of whether that break was spent smoking, sitting, or browsing networking sites). This has to do with the quality of young hires your firm collects and the general culture of the firm, NOT whether or not the URL for MySpace gets blocked between 8:30 and 5:00.
In my little corner of the world, anything over 40 hours I might as well consider charity work for the firm. That type of attitude, however, is poisonous to my motivation, so I choose to focus on the fact that I am paid a salary to complete tasks, big and small, and the number 40 is relatively inconsequential as anything but a guideline. DSC, what is the general mindset of your average employee? Are you actually going to get much more out of them by cutting off a couple of websites? I haven't really seen productivity as a part of your argument. At most, it's secondary (in this case) to network security.
On a side note, the biggest reason IT guys across the world wince when you mention iTunes is NOT security, it's bandwidth. iTunes has vulnerabilities, but so does any software which accesses the internet (think software update notices from Autodesk, Rhino, etc). The real problem is with sharing files and streaming radio. Bandwidth aint cheap. Also, in larger offices with a more cover-your-ass approach, liability and deniability concerning legal or illegal music can also factor in.
Similar issues with webmail... I hear you on the backdoor around the office email's virus protection, but let's remember that it's not as if you can get a virus by opening a GMail message. Anybody downloading executables from unknown senders is a dolt and more of a liability to the office than a virus or worm.
DAMNIT. So much for my couple of "quick notes."
.mm
I do see both sides of this issue. My abrupt "firing" comment was somewhat glib. But the attitude of the employee not being concerned is disconcerting. Is the employee otherwise a productive person who is a plus to the office? Does your whole office goof off half the week then cash in on the overtime? I guess the bottom line is whether or not deadlines are met and the work is of good quality. if that is the case then cut people some slack. If the jobs aren't profitable from people taking advantage, then maybe its time to clean house and set an example.
The internet is a part of everything we do now. You have to be able to do some amount of surfing just to function. I try to keep my office computer use to work related issues only, but I still occasionally just need to look something up thats personel. There are some people who abuse this and I get a bit miffed at when I am asked to work overtime (I refuse almost all overtime) when I know my colleagues have wasted a good part of the week goofing off.
I hear a lot about entitlement these days. I've had jobs where I read magazines and surfed all day but that was from lack of work. The job would have been intolerable if there wasn't something to fill the day. However, most jobs I have had there has been PLENTY to do and I would just a s soon work hard and then go home, I don't need to spend much time entertaining myself. I do enjoy my work. My present employer takes it to extreme though, if you are chatting for more than a minute somebody walks by you and glares at you till you get back to work. It's pretty abnormal not to be allowed to take a break every hour or so for a few minutes.
If you truly want your firm servers to be hack-proof and virus free, i would unplug them.
Look up his myspace page and find a couple of embarrassing photos, quotes, etc. Use them against him.
"In my little corner of the world, anything over 40 hours I might as well consider charity work for the firm..."
-just because you are on salary don't expect to work 40 hours. that's exactly why you are on salary so you can work more and not get paid for it.-
in this day and age its pretty impossible not to have access to the net. we download details and spec sheets all the time, interact with official agencies via the web, download local codes etc.
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