The Robert L. Capp collection at the Hoover Institution Archives contains ten never-before-published photographs illustrating the immediate aftermath of the Hiroshima bombing. These photographs, taken by an unknown Japanese photographer, were found in 1945 among rolls of undeveloped film in a cave outside Hiroshima by U.S. serviceman Robert L. Capp, who was attached to the occupation forces. Unlike most photos of the Hiroshima bombing, these dramatically convey the human as well as material destruction unleashed by the atomic bomb. Mr. Capp donated them to the Hoover Archives in 1998 with the provision that they not be reproduced until 2008. Three of these photographs are reproduced in Atomic Tragedy with the permission of the Capp family. Now that the restriction is no longer in force, the entire set is available below. Please contact Sean L. Malloy ([email protected]) if you have any information that might help identify the original photographer.
so ... since this post clearly was intended to be inflamatory, are you also going to post images of the astronomical number of atrocities conducted by the japanese army from 1939 through 1945 ... just so we have some balance here ?
Digger - his post is not inflammatory. You just choose to see it that way. If you had actually clicked the link you would see that evilplatypus simply copied the text on the website.
evil - interesting stuff, question though, why is it important
that they find the original photographer? more photos maybe?
Maybe im late to this library of congress photo prints thing, but i was happy when i found out that you can get some of histories biggest moments on your own print.
I think it is weird that these photos were found "abandoned" in a cave outside of Hiroshima..
It would be ve y interesting if the person who took them was discovered (if they ar estill alive).
Why did they abandon them - are there more - this is the closest thing to having live coverage. Weve all heard of the event. weve seen the pictures of the obliterated city weeks after the blast. But not the imediate aftermath.
digger, the parallels to this time and your thought[s] are striking. so, in your mind then, the atrocities committed by Saddam against Iranians, Iraqis and Kurds justify are bombing the shit out of Iraq and destroying an entire country and its people?
because when i think about us dropping the "big one" on two cities and the people that were wiped out and the subsequent Atomic Age, i always think how lucky we are that the USA did that...whew, thank God!
Rev Riot, the clan called, they want you to check in your Hood, your Grand Dragon one has come in....
hey punk, you should REALLY come out the closet and quit hiding already, most of us are so impressed by your thoughts, we'd love to meet, i mean beat you.
pimp, i believe is an east coaster, who is masquerading as a Klan Dragon, but their "real" identity is known to all of us...
pathetic. chickenshit in fact, but if you know the Klan, the reason for the hoods are so they can mask themselves when they go to the local glory holes...that, and because of inbreeding they are so god-damned fugly!
I looooove the name "turdmuffin", beta!! From now on Pimpanzee/Revriot shall be named turdmuffin. I think it puts his/her comments in a great context. icky, yet kinda funny, and not to be taken seriously.
More civilians were killed by the Japanese Army during the Nanjing Massacre than died in the combined bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasake.
There can be no point in posting the link to the Hiroshima images here besides a) an attempt to start a diatribe against the "immoral, inhumane decision by the US to use the bomb" or b) to actually have a civil debate that fairly evaluates the various positions on this controversial subject. The former is what happened / the latter actually might be useful.
I abhor the use (or potential use) of nuclear weapons. But, nobody here can really understand the mentality of the day when those decisions were being made. Nobody here can really understand what would have been involved had the Allies been forced to invade the mainland of Japan.
I have relatives who lived through those days -- many who were in the US Army or US Air Force, in both Europe and the Pacific. My own father was shot down over Germany and survived -- when the war in the Pacific ended, he was training in B-29s for rapid deployment to the Pacific. As horrible as the bombings were, those people have no doubts that the right decision was made.
i don't see what one has to do with another, how one justifies another, or how the actions are somehow unjustifiable. it was world war ii people. think about this for a second: World War II. not the franco-prussian war, the french and indian war, or the spanish-american war. WorldWarII. the very name itself implies an intensity above all other wars, and is more akin to an action movie. it was hellish, with several superpowers trying to take over world, and unfortunately ending in two hellish atomic blasts. right or wrong, they did what they did. we weren't there, and weren't consumed by the level of fear that either side was. the sort of things which happen to day are nothing compared to then. it was another time. thanks for posting the photos evilplatypus.
Personally, i didn't assume any political agenda by the posting of these pics.
Instead I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that evil was simply posting something he had run into on the net recently, and thought it "was of the moment" and wanted others to see it. Simply to be informed not to argue a certain agenda.
Maybe i am wrong, Evil?
Besides which it is pretty ridiculous to even start an argument over the moral relatavism of the twin Japanese nukings and the Rape of Nanking.
They are obviously both horrible, historical events.
Nothing to be debated over, which one was worse!!!
and let is also not forget there is no such thing as evil it is a man made concept to enact social contract thru intimidation and fear of the weak and children.
peace indeed and that comes thru the meeting of all of our instrinsic needs.
Connection, acceptance, affection, appreciation, belonging, cooperation, communication, closeness, community, companionship, compassion, consideration, consistency, empathy, inclusion, intimacy, love, mutuality, nurturing, respect/self-respect, safety, security, stability, support, to know and be known, to see and be seen, to understand and be understood, trust, warmth
Honesty, authenticity, integrity, presence
Play, joy, humor
Peace, beauty, communion, ease, equality, harmony, inspiration, order
Physical well-being, air, food, movement/exercise, rest/sleep, sexual expression, safety, shelter, touch, water
Meaning, awareness, celebration of life, challenge, clarity, competence, consciousness, contribution, creativity, discovery, efficacy, effectiveness, growth, hope, learning, mourning, participation, purpose, self-expression, stimulation, to matter, understanding
Autonomy, choice, freedom, independence, space, spontaneity
remb. there is enough for us all if we take the strategies that enable such.
"Instead I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that evil was simply posting something he had run into on the net recently, and thought it "was of the moment" and wanted others to see it. Simply to be informed not to argue a certain agenda.
Maybe i am wrong, Evil?
"
You are correct - I came accross a blog link to these photos and I thought it was really interesting. we are used to seeing the direct aftermath of events today through mass media, but not then, and not most of history. Those pictures you can see the smoke in the air. I almost smell the burned flesh. I always assumed after a nuclear blast it would be silent and desolate. But not so.
There is no political motive to this post at all what so ever. I even support the decision to bomb Japan given the context of the times and the fact no one had ever used this weapon before. We cant make the same decision again since our frame of reference has since changed. Nor would an emporer/ facist ever push the world to the brink the way Hitler/ Hirohito did. All our context is changed.
...Now we Build Dubai and destroy a culture from within, and preserve the oil deposits access thereto in the process. Say hello to the next Las Vegas! Sin Evil, Moral Decay...right smack-dab in the middle of the middleeast..
Genius
the atrocities committed by Saddam against Iranians, Iraqis and Kurds justify are bombing the shit out of Iraq
Totally different situation than WWII. There are no parallels. Different time, different region, different politics.
because when i think about us dropping the "big one" on two cities and the people that were wiped out and the subsequent Atomic Age, i always think how lucky we are that the USA did that...whew, thank God!
You have to make shitty decisions in a war. When Truman was given the option of dropping this new "bomb" and risking only a few American lives for a Japanese surrender vs. an full invasion and risking hundreds of thousands of American lives I can fully understand the decision he made.
Japan was ready to call it quits anyway. More than 60 of its cities had been destroyed by conventional bombing, the home islands were being blockaded by the American Navy, and the Soviet Union entered the war by attacking Japanese troops in Manchuria.
American refusal to modify its "unconditional surrender" demand to allow the Japanese to keep their emperor needlessly prolonged Japan's resistance.
A demonstration explosion over Tokyo harbor would have convinced Japan's leaders to quit without killing many people.
Even if Hiroshima was necessary, the U.S. did not give enough time for word to filter out of its devastation before bombing Nagasaki.
The bomb was used partly to justify the $2 billion spent on its development.
The two cities were of limited military value. Civilians outnumbered troops in Hiroshima five or six to one.
Japanese lives were sacrificed simply for power politics between the U.S. and the Soviet Union.
Conventional firebombing would have caused as much significant damage without making the U.S. the first nation to use nuclear weapons.
- not even close to the truth at the senior political level. The emperor had to interceed after Hiroshima and Nagasaki to make the war government surrender.
American refusal to modify its "unconditional surrender" demand to allow the Japanese to keep their emperor needlessly prolonged Japan's resistance. - easy to say today - not so easy back in 1945 after many years of death and destruction.
A demonstration explosion over Tokyo harbor would have convinced Japan's leaders to quit without killing many people. - sorting of splitting hairs, aren't you?
Even if Hiroshima was necessary, the U.S. did not give enough time for word to filter out of its devastation before bombing Nagasaki. - simply not true - the government in Tokyo was fully aware of the extent of destruction in Hiroshima
The bomb was used partly to justify the $2 billion spent on its development. - all the atomic powers have spent considerably more than $2 billion on nuclear weaponry since 1945 -- by your argument, all of those countries would have used those weapons many times over by now.
The two cities were of limited military value. Civilians outnumbered troops in Hiroshima five or six to one. - in WW2, both sides made war on countries, not just military targets
Japanese lives were sacrificed simply for power politics between the U.S. and the Soviet Union. - tell that to the mothers of soldiers in uniform.
Conventional firebombing would have caused as much significant damage without making the U.S. the first nation to use nuclear weapons. - not sure I see the distinction between dying by firebombing vs. dying by atom bomb.
so the war ended after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. 220thousand dead. horrible yes. however, if you think about it, it may have saved a million japanese lives as well as the hundreds of thousands of potential allied casualties. EnJoY!
: "There is no political motive to this post at all, whatsoever."
at the risk of reigniting a firestorm that probably needs to die down, please let me explain why I took the approach I took initially.
evil -- with both respect and courtesy, I'm inclined to think your statement quoted above is either naive (at best) or disingenuous (at worst). The simple act of posting a link to such graphic images - irrespective of their historical importance - without anticipating the reaction that act might produce from some readers is, to some degree, akin to shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre -- it would be reasonable to assume the posting might generate some strong, and conflicting, reactions.
We're not talking here about some cool new images of a freshly constructed building that would pique the interest of the broad range of archinect readers. We're talking about disturbing images tied very closely to a hot political debate that has raged unabated for over 60 years.
I can accept that evil didn't deliberately set out to generate the controversy that errupted. However, over a fairly long life, I've rarely, if ever, seen someone bring up the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki without someone else immediately start to bash the US for choosing to use the bomb in this way. I could see it coming in this thread (and I was right) and I felt it important to inject an offsetting influence early. The politics of the day cannot be ignored when considering this issue.
Presumably, most of the posters here are relatively young -- certainly most are younger than me. My birth occurred a few short years following the end of WW2 - at the time of my birth, my father (who fought in Europe) still served in the US Military. His generation suffered badly during WW2 and the first 25-30 years of my life were lived in the shadow of that horrible conflict. This was made worse by the lingering tensions of the Cold War. Very few of the generation who lived through this period felt the use of the bomb was anything but fully justified.
nevertheless -- evil, if I misread your intent, you have my apology.
Patrick, i grow tired of your rah-rah war stance. that statement above is NOT my position, but of many others. if you'd bother to take a read of the link i posted you'd find that opinion as you call it, bears out through some more astute historical examination, by others more inclined to base it on facts gathered than on hopeless rhetoric you offer.
Interestingly enough, the photos have now been removed because of questions of authenticity (this note appears at the original link):
NOTE: The Robert L. Capp collection at the Hoover Institution Archives contains ten photographs purportedly showing the immediate aftermath of the Hiroshima bombing. Mr. Capp was assigned to the occupation forces outside Hiroshima after World War II. According to to Mr. Capp's oral history (available along with the photographs in the Robert L. Capp collection), he found these photos among rolls of undeveloped film in a cave outside of Hiroshima. Since making these photographs publicly available, I have received reliable proof that at least some of these photos are actually of the 1923 Kanto earthquake. It appears that the Hoover Archives have been deceived and the the designation of the collection was incorrect. I take full responsibility for my own failure to take additional steps to verify that the original archival designation was correct. I have removed the photographs until and unless their source can be verified.
in fact, the japanese military attempted a coup to overthrow the cilivian government to continue the war. oh and this happened after the bombs were dropped. you can see it in the film "japan's longest day"
Ok, sure; i guess you never saw the movie Wargames? ruthless behavior begets ruthless behavior? how, how Neanderthal of you. i love how the things that easily slip by for you are not important; arms escalation, cold war, failed wars in Korea, Vietnam and Iraq - all of these things i believe are rooted in that decision to drop those bombs, but you go on deluding yourself and believe it was the right thing.
i am done trying to convince you war is not the answer.
oh, and what is the point of those photos you posted from your brother? those kids will still grow up killing your brother's friends, i guess ruthlessness begets ruthlessness?
a soccer ball is supposed to be meaningful when you look at those photos you see that, your brother sees that. you know what i see? i see armored vehicles, heavily armed soldiers with guns ready, some crouching, kids with ill fitting shoes and clothes, one with no shoes, all kids with zero body armor or weapons and oh, yeah, I SEE AN ILLEGAL OCCUPATION.
Patrick - you yourself seem to be making plenty of assumptions - for instance that "their poor families get oppressed by a bigoted religious minority that would just as soon shoot a fag rather than honor his humanity".
I'm not sure if you'd noticed but religious population are not the minority there as you suggest. And, indeed, having hard-line religious rulers that seek to side-line gay people from equal rights/privileges is not something limited to the country that's being invaded...it also happens to be a defining part of the invading country too (for now).
"Ruthless behavior can only be met with equally ruthless behavior. They were fine with raping and plundering all of East Asia before we dropped two atom bombs on them..."
- just swap 'East Asia' with 'Middle East' and 'atom bombs' for 'planes' and I think you'll see why your gun-ho attitude is - as b3ta pointed out - only going to make things worse.
we are all Brights(world free from supernatural), just some people don't know it yet. and those who know it most and want to maintain control are the leaders in churches mosques synagogues.
well, how many people do you think claim to believe but really don't? it's impossible to know (since we can't read minds yet) but i bet atheists make up more than 3.8%.
well, not being religious doesn't necessarily make you aetheist per se, but i'd say that outside of europe and maybe communist or former communist republics, the world seems to be pretty religious. the only way around it seems to be if you counted the 1b+ people in china as non-religious, because they are officially communist. i would even argue that communist north korea is deeply religious, due to the cult of its leader. i don't know maybe the world isn't religious, but i'm curious where that comes from.
It's true, posting pictures such as those in the link cannot but bring up lines of argument and defensive postures, because the bombing campaigns by the Allies and the use of atomic weapons by the US cannot be seen in anything but black and white, it seems. It is indisputable that the world was full of fear at that time, and anything seemed fair when so many lives and countries' survivals were in the balance, and we can hardly put ourselves in those situations with any real clarity now.
But it's also true that the winning side can't claim total moral victory on HOW they won. The bombing campaigns of Curtis LeMay and Arthur Harris can hardly be looked at as "clean" war operations. Many of their targets were civilian centers, not military installations, so if looked at through the lens of morality, can hardly be discerned from the war actions of the Axis (and I'm not including here the concentration camps, which were plain genocide and represented no strategic war gains for Germany, and would have gone on, had the Axis won, past the war).
In my eyes, there is more than a bit of guilt in the touchiness of those who would defend any and all actions by the Allies and want a clear stamp of approval on all the bombing campaigns and will brook no photos or reminders of any negative impact of our actions ever to be shown. This guilt was present in some of the key players, especially LeMay himself when he stated that had the U.S. lost the war, he fully expected to be tried for war crimes. "Ruthless behavior can only be met with equally ruthless behavior" just cannot in itself justify ALL actions in every case. It's more the case that you get away with some things if you win.
this is very true, emilio. but in that case do you feel in such a terrible situation that it would have been possible to achieve a true moral victory, and if so, what would have been the scenario for this?
Hiroshema Photos Released
The Robert L. Capp collection at the Hoover Institution Archives contains ten never-before-published photographs illustrating the immediate aftermath of the Hiroshima bombing. These photographs, taken by an unknown Japanese photographer, were found in 1945 among rolls of undeveloped film in a cave outside Hiroshima by U.S. serviceman Robert L. Capp, who was attached to the occupation forces. Unlike most photos of the Hiroshima bombing, these dramatically convey the human as well as material destruction unleashed by the atomic bomb. Mr. Capp donated them to the Hoover Archives in 1998 with the provision that they not be reproduced until 2008. Three of these photographs are reproduced in Atomic Tragedy with the permission of the Capp family. Now that the restriction is no longer in force, the entire set is available below. Please contact Sean L. Malloy ([email protected]) if you have any information that might help identify the original photographer.
link
so ... since this post clearly was intended to be inflamatory, are you also going to post images of the astronomical number of atrocities conducted by the japanese army from 1939 through 1945 ... just so we have some balance here ?
Dude - Do you even know me? I think I would be inflamatory the other way candy ass.
This is history - this is what the earth looks like after a nuke. Thats it.
Digger - his post is not inflammatory. You just choose to see it that way. If you had actually clicked the link you would see that evilplatypus simply copied the text on the website.
evil - interesting stuff, question though, why is it important
that they find the original photographer? more photos maybe?
Maybe im late to this library of congress photo prints thing, but i was happy when i found out that you can get some of histories biggest moments on your own print.
1939? try 1933.
digger, it's important for you to know that Attacking Pearl Harbor was inflammatory.
preparation-h banners should be all over this thread: candy ass & inflammatory...
I think it is weird that these photos were found "abandoned" in a cave outside of Hiroshima..
It would be ve y interesting if the person who took them was discovered (if they ar estill alive).
Why did they abandon them - are there more - this is the closest thing to having live coverage. Weve all heard of the event. weve seen the pictures of the obliterated city weeks after the blast. But not the imediate aftermath.
digger, the parallels to this time and your thought[s] are striking. so, in your mind then, the atrocities committed by Saddam against Iranians, Iraqis and Kurds justify are bombing the shit out of Iraq and destroying an entire country and its people?
because when i think about us dropping the "big one" on two cities and the people that were wiped out and the subsequent Atomic Age, i always think how lucky we are that the USA did that...whew, thank God!
Rev Riot, the clan called, they want you to check in your Hood, your Grand Dragon one has come in....
Hussein...Thank you so much for taking the call while you were licking my shoe. Hand me the phone next time, bitch.
digger are you a makeshift patriot?
awww...the racist called me bitch, thanks turdmuffin!
is that you in the back there?
hey punk, you should REALLY come out the closet and quit hiding already, most of us are so impressed by your thoughts, we'd love to meet, i mean beat you.
I just checked her profile. She only posts political stuff. Way to contribute to ARCHInect.
pimp 'n chimp seems like a real fun person.
pimp, you in l.a.? perhaps you should come out to the next l.a. archinect meet-up. it'd be interesting chatting with you.
pimp, i believe is an east coaster, who is masquerading as a Klan Dragon, but their "real" identity is known to all of us...
pathetic. chickenshit in fact, but if you know the Klan, the reason for the hoods are so they can mask themselves when they go to the local glory holes...that, and because of inbreeding they are so god-damned fugly!
I looooove the name "turdmuffin", beta!! From now on Pimpanzee/Revriot shall be named turdmuffin. I think it puts his/her comments in a great context. icky, yet kinda funny, and not to be taken seriously.
More civilians were killed by the Japanese Army during the Nanjing Massacre than died in the combined bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasake.
There can be no point in posting the link to the Hiroshima images here besides a) an attempt to start a diatribe against the "immoral, inhumane decision by the US to use the bomb" or b) to actually have a civil debate that fairly evaluates the various positions on this controversial subject. The former is what happened / the latter actually might be useful.
I abhor the use (or potential use) of nuclear weapons. But, nobody here can really understand the mentality of the day when those decisions were being made. Nobody here can really understand what would have been involved had the Allies been forced to invade the mainland of Japan.
I have relatives who lived through those days -- many who were in the US Army or US Air Force, in both Europe and the Pacific. My own father was shot down over Germany and survived -- when the war in the Pacific ended, he was training in B-29s for rapid deployment to the Pacific. As horrible as the bombings were, those people have no doubts that the right decision was made.
i don't see what one has to do with another, how one justifies another, or how the actions are somehow unjustifiable. it was world war ii people. think about this for a second: World War II. not the franco-prussian war, the french and indian war, or the spanish-american war. World War II. the very name itself implies an intensity above all other wars, and is more akin to an action movie. it was hellish, with several superpowers trying to take over world, and unfortunately ending in two hellish atomic blasts. right or wrong, they did what they did. we weren't there, and weren't consumed by the level of fear that either side was. the sort of things which happen to day are nothing compared to then. it was another time. thanks for posting the photos evilplatypus.
lets not forget the African civil wars
forget the bias, the race, whatever - murder for social/political/reasons..etc is just pure evil...live the peace folks
Personally, i didn't assume any political agenda by the posting of these pics.
Instead I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that evil was simply posting something he had run into on the net recently, and thought it "was of the moment" and wanted others to see it. Simply to be informed not to argue a certain agenda.
Maybe i am wrong, Evil?
Besides which it is pretty ridiculous to even start an argument over the moral relatavism of the twin Japanese nukings and the Rape of Nanking.
They are obviously both horrible, historical events.
Nothing to be debated over, which one was worse!!!
and let is also not forget there is no such thing as evil it is a man made concept to enact social contract thru intimidation and fear of the weak and children.
peace indeed and that comes thru the meeting of all of our instrinsic needs.
Connection, acceptance, affection, appreciation, belonging, cooperation, communication, closeness, community, companionship, compassion, consideration, consistency, empathy, inclusion, intimacy, love, mutuality, nurturing, respect/self-respect, safety, security, stability, support, to know and be known, to see and be seen, to understand and be understood, trust, warmth
Honesty, authenticity, integrity, presence
Play, joy, humor
Peace, beauty, communion, ease, equality, harmony, inspiration, order
Physical well-being, air, food, movement/exercise, rest/sleep, sexual expression, safety, shelter, touch, water
Meaning, awareness, celebration of life, challenge, clarity, competence, consciousness, contribution, creativity, discovery, efficacy, effectiveness, growth, hope, learning, mourning, participation, purpose, self-expression, stimulation, to matter, understanding
Autonomy, choice, freedom, independence, space, spontaneity
remb. there is enough for us all if we take the strategies that enable such.
nam, I was referring to Reverend's posts. She always posts political turdmuffins.
anyway, thanks for posting this evil. i didn't assume any political agenda either.
the photographs are both horrifying and fascinating at the same time. you're right, it's as close as we can get to first person coverage.
"Instead I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that evil was simply posting something he had run into on the net recently, and thought it "was of the moment" and wanted others to see it. Simply to be informed not to argue a certain agenda.
Maybe i am wrong, Evil?
"
You are correct - I came accross a blog link to these photos and I thought it was really interesting. we are used to seeing the direct aftermath of events today through mass media, but not then, and not most of history. Those pictures you can see the smoke in the air. I almost smell the burned flesh. I always assumed after a nuclear blast it would be silent and desolate. But not so.
There is no political motive to this post at all what so ever. I even support the decision to bomb Japan given the context of the times and the fact no one had ever used this weapon before. We cant make the same decision again since our frame of reference has since changed. Nor would an emporer/ facist ever push the world to the brink the way Hitler/ Hirohito did. All our context is changed.
...Now we Build Dubai and destroy a culture from within, and preserve the oil deposits access thereto in the process. Say hello to the next Las Vegas! Sin Evil, Moral Decay...right smack-dab in the middle of the middleeast..
Genius
Totally different situation than WWII. There are no parallels. Different time, different region, different politics.
because when i think about us dropping the "big one" on two cities and the people that were wiped out and the subsequent Atomic Age, i always think how lucky we are that the USA did that...whew, thank God!
You have to make shitty decisions in a war. When Truman was given the option of dropping this new "bomb" and risking only a few American lives for a Japanese surrender vs. an full invasion and risking hundreds of thousands of American lives I can fully understand the decision he made.
Why the bomb was not needed, or unjustified:
Japan was ready to call it quits anyway. More than 60 of its cities had been destroyed by conventional bombing, the home islands were being blockaded by the American Navy, and the Soviet Union entered the war by attacking Japanese troops in Manchuria.
American refusal to modify its "unconditional surrender" demand to allow the Japanese to keep their emperor needlessly prolonged Japan's resistance.
A demonstration explosion over Tokyo harbor would have convinced Japan's leaders to quit without killing many people.
Even if Hiroshima was necessary, the U.S. did not give enough time for word to filter out of its devastation before bombing Nagasaki.
The bomb was used partly to justify the $2 billion spent on its development.
The two cities were of limited military value. Civilians outnumbered troops in Hiroshima five or six to one.
Japanese lives were sacrificed simply for power politics between the U.S. and the Soviet Union.
Conventional firebombing would have caused as much significant damage without making the U.S. the first nation to use nuclear weapons.
- not even close to the truth at the senior political level. The emperor had to interceed after Hiroshima and Nagasaki to make the war government surrender.
American refusal to modify its "unconditional surrender" demand to allow the Japanese to keep their emperor needlessly prolonged Japan's resistance. - easy to say today - not so easy back in 1945 after many years of death and destruction.
A demonstration explosion over Tokyo harbor would have convinced Japan's leaders to quit without killing many people. - sorting of splitting hairs, aren't you?
Even if Hiroshima was necessary, the U.S. did not give enough time for word to filter out of its devastation before bombing Nagasaki. - simply not true - the government in Tokyo was fully aware of the extent of destruction in Hiroshima
The bomb was used partly to justify the $2 billion spent on its development. - all the atomic powers have spent considerably more than $2 billion on nuclear weaponry since 1945 -- by your argument, all of those countries would have used those weapons many times over by now.
The two cities were of limited military value. Civilians outnumbered troops in Hiroshima five or six to one. - in WW2, both sides made war on countries, not just military targets
Japanese lives were sacrificed simply for power politics between the U.S. and the Soviet Union. - tell that to the mothers of soldiers in uniform.
Conventional firebombing would have caused as much significant damage without making the U.S. the first nation to use nuclear weapons. - not sure I see the distinction between dying by firebombing vs. dying by atom bomb.
pearl harbour was an inside job...as was 9/11
beta, I challenge you to make that argument to a WWII vet that was fighting in the pacific.
We can speculate till the cows come home about what else might have ended the war. But the history is that after dropping 2 bombs Japan surrendered.
It's a little telling that it took 2 bombs before that happened. If they were that close to surrender why not after the 1st?
I agree that America is far from a perfect country but I don't think this is an example of it.
slippery slope we all fall.
so the war ended after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. 220thousand dead. horrible yes. however, if you think about it, it may have saved a million japanese lives as well as the hundreds of thousands of potential allied casualties. EnJoY!
Thanks for the link. Very moving.
: "There is no political motive to this post at all, whatsoever."
at the risk of reigniting a firestorm that probably needs to die down, please let me explain why I took the approach I took initially.
evil -- with both respect and courtesy, I'm inclined to think your statement quoted above is either naive (at best) or disingenuous (at worst). The simple act of posting a link to such graphic images - irrespective of their historical importance - without anticipating the reaction that act might produce from some readers is, to some degree, akin to shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre -- it would be reasonable to assume the posting might generate some strong, and conflicting, reactions.
We're not talking here about some cool new images of a freshly constructed building that would pique the interest of the broad range of archinect readers. We're talking about disturbing images tied very closely to a hot political debate that has raged unabated for over 60 years.
I can accept that evil didn't deliberately set out to generate the controversy that errupted. However, over a fairly long life, I've rarely, if ever, seen someone bring up the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki without someone else immediately start to bash the US for choosing to use the bomb in this way. I could see it coming in this thread (and I was right) and I felt it important to inject an offsetting influence early. The politics of the day cannot be ignored when considering this issue.
Presumably, most of the posters here are relatively young -- certainly most are younger than me. My birth occurred a few short years following the end of WW2 - at the time of my birth, my father (who fought in Europe) still served in the US Military. His generation suffered badly during WW2 and the first 25-30 years of my life were lived in the shadow of that horrible conflict. This was made worse by the lingering tensions of the Cold War. Very few of the generation who lived through this period felt the use of the bomb was anything but fully justified.
nevertheless -- evil, if I misread your intent, you have my apology.
Patrick, i grow tired of your rah-rah war stance. that statement above is NOT my position, but of many others. if you'd bother to take a read of the link i posted you'd find that opinion as you call it, bears out through some more astute historical examination, by others more inclined to base it on facts gathered than on hopeless rhetoric you offer.
Interestingly enough, the photos have now been removed because of questions of authenticity (this note appears at the original link):
NOTE: The Robert L. Capp collection at the Hoover Institution Archives contains ten photographs purportedly showing the immediate aftermath of the Hiroshima bombing. Mr. Capp was assigned to the occupation forces outside Hiroshima after World War II. According to to Mr. Capp's oral history (available along with the photographs in the Robert L. Capp collection), he found these photos among rolls of undeveloped film in a cave outside of Hiroshima. Since making these photographs publicly available, I have received reliable proof that at least some of these photos are actually of the 1923 Kanto earthquake. It appears that the Hoover Archives have been deceived and the the designation of the collection was incorrect. I take full responsibility for my own failure to take additional steps to verify that the original archival designation was correct. I have removed the photographs until and unless their source can be verified.
in fact, the japanese military attempted a coup to overthrow the cilivian government to continue the war. oh and this happened after the bombs were dropped. you can see it in the film "japan's longest day"
Ok, sure; i guess you never saw the movie Wargames? ruthless behavior begets ruthless behavior? how, how Neanderthal of you. i love how the things that easily slip by for you are not important; arms escalation, cold war, failed wars in Korea, Vietnam and Iraq - all of these things i believe are rooted in that decision to drop those bombs, but you go on deluding yourself and believe it was the right thing.
i am done trying to convince you war is not the answer.
oh, and what is the point of those photos you posted from your brother? those kids will still grow up killing your brother's friends, i guess ruthlessness begets ruthlessness?
a soccer ball is supposed to be meaningful when you look at those photos you see that, your brother sees that. you know what i see? i see armored vehicles, heavily armed soldiers with guns ready, some crouching, kids with ill fitting shoes and clothes, one with no shoes, all kids with zero body armor or weapons and oh, yeah, I SEE AN ILLEGAL OCCUPATION.
Patrick - you yourself seem to be making plenty of assumptions - for instance that "their poor families get oppressed by a bigoted religious minority that would just as soon shoot a fag rather than honor his humanity".
I'm not sure if you'd noticed but religious population are not the minority there as you suggest. And, indeed, having hard-line religious rulers that seek to side-line gay people from equal rights/privileges is not something limited to the country that's being invaded...it also happens to be a defining part of the invading country too (for now).
"Ruthless behavior can only be met with equally ruthless behavior. They were fine with raping and plundering all of East Asia before we dropped two atom bombs on them..."
- just swap 'East Asia' with 'Middle East' and 'atom bombs' for 'planes' and I think you'll see why your gun-ho attitude is - as b3ta pointed out - only going to make things worse.
religious people are the minority worldwide
we are all Brights(world free from supernatural), just some people don't know it yet. and those who know it most and want to maintain control are the leaders in churches mosques synagogues.
religious people are the minority worldwide? can you cite that?
Well according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica 1997 atheists make up 3.8% of global population (approximate values of course). 11th place behind:
Christians (total): 33.7%
Roman Catholics: 16.9%
Protestants: 7.0%
Orthodox: 3.8%
Anglicans: 1.2%
Other Christian: 4.9%
Muslims: 19.4%
Non-religious: 15.3%
Hindus: 13.7%
Buddhists: 5.6%
I can't imagine the numbers have changed so much that atheism now represents the majority.
well, how many people do you think claim to believe but really don't? it's impossible to know (since we can't read minds yet) but i bet atheists make up more than 3.8%.
well, not being religious doesn't necessarily make you aetheist per se, but i'd say that outside of europe and maybe communist or former communist republics, the world seems to be pretty religious. the only way around it seems to be if you counted the 1b+ people in china as non-religious, because they are officially communist. i would even argue that communist north korea is deeply religious, due to the cult of its leader. i don't know maybe the world isn't religious, but i'm curious where that comes from.
well either way, religious people are certainly not the minority in the country currently under 'illegal occupation'.
It's true, posting pictures such as those in the link cannot but bring up lines of argument and defensive postures, because the bombing campaigns by the Allies and the use of atomic weapons by the US cannot be seen in anything but black and white, it seems. It is indisputable that the world was full of fear at that time, and anything seemed fair when so many lives and countries' survivals were in the balance, and we can hardly put ourselves in those situations with any real clarity now.
But it's also true that the winning side can't claim total moral victory on HOW they won. The bombing campaigns of Curtis LeMay and Arthur Harris can hardly be looked at as "clean" war operations. Many of their targets were civilian centers, not military installations, so if looked at through the lens of morality, can hardly be discerned from the war actions of the Axis (and I'm not including here the concentration camps, which were plain genocide and represented no strategic war gains for Germany, and would have gone on, had the Axis won, past the war).
In my eyes, there is more than a bit of guilt in the touchiness of those who would defend any and all actions by the Allies and want a clear stamp of approval on all the bombing campaigns and will brook no photos or reminders of any negative impact of our actions ever to be shown. This guilt was present in some of the key players, especially LeMay himself when he stated that had the U.S. lost the war, he fully expected to be tried for war crimes. "Ruthless behavior can only be met with equally ruthless behavior" just cannot in itself justify ALL actions in every case. It's more the case that you get away with some things if you win.
this is very true, emilio. but in that case do you feel in such a terrible situation that it would have been possible to achieve a true moral victory, and if so, what would have been the scenario for this?
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