I recently received an offer from a smaller firm (~15) in Southern California to start at an annual full-time salary of $30K flat with no health insurance and standard vacation days. That's it. I am from the east coast, is $30K even livable in that area? I can't imagine being able to survive on that salary, let alone be anywhere near comfortable or have money to pay down student debt or save. Is anyone in the area working as a recent graduate with a Masters degree for less than $40K? I have about 1.5 years of interning experience while in college, so I am familiar with a working environment and have a fair level of comfort working in small offices. $30K seems very very low, almost unlivable.
Any thoughts on negotiating with them would be great. Thanks!
It's going to be difficult, and your salary is on the low side, but it's not extraordinary. Unfortunately, are a huge number of qualified recent graduates competing for few positions right now, and some employers are either being opportunistic or have been forced to lower compensation because of the competitive environment and lots of downward pressure on fees. Carefully assess the options that you have available. Some job>no job, and it is easier to find a higher paying position when you are employed.
Thank you for the response. I realize times are tough especially for recent graduates, but it simply comes down to numbers for me. $30K is just barely enough to cover living expenses without a car or health insurance. So I would either be demanding a substantial raise after the first year, or would be essentially looking for another job the moment I accept their offer. It also involves moving across the country where I don't know anyone and have no family nearby for support.
I'm mostly curious how others have gone about negotiating an initial offer from a firm if you feel it is too low or basically prohibitive. Anyone who takes this offer would have to be either sitting on a good amount of savings or have someone else they know that can help support them financially. $30K starting salary for just about any Masters degree (let alone architecture) seems almost insulting to be honest. I know an elementary school custodian that just started in his mid twenties making more. I understand the industry isn't in the best shape, but having to negotiate a livable wage seems a little absurd.
30k is low....maybe try for asking for 40 or 45k ? Yeah it might be bad out there but 30 is what I earned in school as an intern. Is the architect super famous or something? Even if they were they still should not pay so low. Unless it was only for 6 months to see if you are competent, with a potential raise afterwards.
In my experience I had a friend bargain for 4k a month for a summer gig at a starchitect's office. He did a 6 month gig before hand and did really well. So he went back the next summer earning as much as a junior architect. However other well known offices typically start ppl around 40k in Cali, that's from my experience.
Ask for 40k, if they say no. Consider taking it but look for other opportunities while working. You are more desirable working then not.
You should try negotiating the offer up at least a little bit. Unless the experience you're getting at that firm is amazing I wouldn't stay for long—that salary is deplorably low and the lack of health insurance is killer.
Thanks for the input guys. The offer is 30K/year starting but they are putting me on a probationary period of 90 days and if we like where things are going and we're both happy then I become full time, but there is (so far) no mention of a raise once the probationary period is over. It's apparently how they handle new hires which isn't that unusual being a smaller firm I suppose.
@archinet, I also earned more ($18/hr) as an intern during undergrad, so being offered less with a Masters for full time seems very low, especially with living expenses in Southern California. And no, they aren't a "starchitect," but a young smaller firm.
honestly try to ask for a raise after the probationary period. Most of my friends started around 50k after graduation, some 55k. The lowest I heard of was 37k at a small office around 15ppl. This is up in Canada. And anyways aren't things picking up down there? Just ask, the worst they say is no, but keep your eyes open for other opportunities.From my experience the more they pay the more responsibility you get.
@archinet, maybe I should be looking at moving north, Vancouver looks amazing :) Things are "picking up" in the news, but on paper it's a bit of another bubble, thought it does help raise housing prices so people are encouraged to buy/build with cheaper money. In any case, thanks for the insight, it's been helpful.
$30k? That should keep you below the professional exemption clause in the CA labor department - which should mean they have to pay you 1.5x salary rate for overtime?
You cannot make it in SoCal on that kind of money today. Period. Then, NO health insurance, to boot. This is actually indicative of a firm you don't want to be associated with. Are they, without being specific, "bohemian?"
When I started working, in the 90s, I got close to that, with health insurance and vacation, and it wasn't easy, and it wasn't even SoCal. And it was also a crappy firm, not in terms of what I learned, but in terms of the "alumni club" management. I licensed after a stint at another firm, then switched again, and my salary increased.
I would stay away from them. There was recently a thread on $42,000 to start in SoCal with a M.Arch. and some of us indicated that they could edge up a little more.
@observant, They are actually a growing and successful firm in the area with a lot of projects on their plate. It seems that they are just very hesitant to offer more money up front until you have proven your worth. I don't know how common the probationary period is for a Masters grad, but it's a situation where you work for 3 months, if it doesn't work out, you leave. If it does work out, they put you on salary and give you a small pay bump consummate with your performance. The problem is even if I do stay and get a bump to 40K, which is probably out of the question for a 1 or 2 year employee hired in at 30k though I'm not sure, is still not a lot to live on in the area. They are essentially selling me an opportunity to work in a very busy and growing young firm (~8 years), with the ability to take on multiple roles early on as a designer, but at the price of pay. Right now it comes to if it's worth it to just go for it and rough it out for 3 months and re-evaluate later. They are not flexible on the pay fwiw. It's take it or leave it.
What you learn as you mature is that "there's lots of opportunity," especially in a small or newer outfit, is merely a sales pitch, and it can be true, but maybe not for everyone to whom it is conveyed. $30,000 is $14.42 an hour. You can't live in SoCal on that. I would not sell myself short and keep looking.
If it's like San Diego or far East LA... maybe. Anywhere else? Nope.
Just applied for a job that required immediate on call availability in Lower Manhattan, chatted via email with the HR director and found out the pay was only $29,500 and someone with a M.A. was ahead of me in the interview queue.
i had a couple internships, an m.arch, and started at 30k. i think that's pretty much the lowest i'd expect for any college educated job. its a foot in the door and some real experience, anyway. if you don't have any options besides them, you take it. then if something comes up in 3 months ask for more money, and if they don't, leave. that's the risk any employer assumes when they pay below market value for an employee.
(1) that $14.42 per hour, on $30K a year, is pre-tax, (2) if they get overtime off of you for free, that is majorly screwed, and (3) they are taking advantage of the market ... they can definitely bill you at 3x that rate, and then some.
Others in more "balanced" or less "gotta have it" markets, please chime in. What are they paying, for a FT salary (or per hour, but still FT basis), in places like Houston, Dallas, Denver, St. Louis, Kansas City, and Minneapolis, among others?
There are some major firms in L.A. How about cutting your teeth at one of those, and then being more adventurous with an avant-garde and more uncharted firm?
@Kevin W, It's a 90 day probationary period, and if we like each other I become a permanent employee for 30K the first year. They pay me the 30K hourly equivalent until the 3 months is up then I go salary, but I would be working full time throughout.
The primary issue is it's the only offer I currently have on the table. I am 8 months out of school and starting to get concerned about how long it may take for another to come along if I pass. Firm location isn't a major factor for me, though I of course prefer it be in a city or metropolitan area for a handful of reasons. I wish it were as easy as just applying to every major firm and getting at least one offer. Unless you already have connections with someone inside a firm, it's very difficult competing against the sea of graduates. I have held off on head-hunters but perhaps it's time to go that route? I know a lot of design firms don't like dealing with them but at this point I feel I need to make myself more visible in the market in whatever ways possible.
Its an insult but hey, in this economy and job market, I guess its okay to start with that figure. Unless you were at the top of your class, interned at many firms, have plenty of achievements and awards, we can't really expect much like other engineering professions where your skills can be somewhat quantified based on marks, tests etc. Architecture is flaky and people are often judged not on the work they do but who they are and how well liked they are. I'd say, stick with it for a few months and if the next raise isn't significant, get the hell out of there. That again depends on where your skills are so you have to be honest with yourself. But the fact that you were able to get through masters warrants a pay much higher than working at McDonalds you know. If I were you, I'd rather go work in some Hollywood studio designing digital sets for movies you know ;) Get paid 70K/year and just worry about design and none of the other b.s ^^
A firm offering 30K for a M.Arch grad in 2013 in North America is not seriously considering you. Employers are well aware of industry standards and typically if they post dramatically lower it is likely they are only looking for a short term position (which they do not tell you).
Without knowing your financial situation, do not take what sounds like a ridiculous offer.
Our firm pays students in the middle of school 20 dollars an hour... with 1.5x pay overtime.
I spoke with the principle today for a good hour or so about all of this. His sentiments were that he really liked my work from school and the handful of internships I've had, and was really pushing the idea that they wanted me to stay on for at least 2 years if things were going well after the first 90 days. Is it worth it to make essentially no money to have at least 3 months of recent professional work experience? I am flying across the country to work for them as well fwiw.
My main concern is that even if I do like the work and the firm and ask for a raise, starting at 30k really lowers the ceiling on future raises even 3-5 years out. I'm not out to get wealthy or demand a 50k+ salary in 2-3 years, but I don't know that they can accommodate or offer enough of a pay raise within the next year or two to give me enough incentive to continue working there. I really want to work with them and I am very eager to get started in general, and I understand that early on it's more about the experience than the pay, but at a certain point I need a more livable wage otherwise I have more incentive to jump ship for better offers in the near future. However, turning down my only offer in a long time just feels wrong considering my position and the status of the industry.
Perhaps I just wasn't expecting a very difficult decision over my first offer. If they had offered me 40k I would have accepted instantly with a smile on my face and been on the first flight out.
Screw them. Seriously. Jacques is correct. Not only that, this principal is putting you on hourly for 90 days, and then putting you on the full-time payroll? The serious employer puts you on the payroll at a salaried wage and gives you a probationary period. In terms of paperwork, it's not that hard. They have to do payroll, anyway. Did he ever mention overtime pay or comp time? Did he ever mention if insurance would kick in later? Not only that, you now mention you've had a few internships, so if you have 4 to 6 months of experience, some other employer absorbed the toughest part of the learning curve, so you should be able to be more productive than someone who has never set foot in an office. Then, it requires moving across the country. Let me tell you something else I've observed. Given that they are trying to entice someone from far away, Los Angeles and its surroundings are not lacking for talent from the schools and people who descend on the area to work, it could mean that the firm might have a less than desirable reputation as an employer and "locals" are passing on them. If a blue chip firm in L.A. is paying market rate, they wouldn't toss out such ridiculous conditions, they'd be respected, and people wouldn't hesitate to take their offers. This isn't a balancing of positives and negatives. Most of the variables are negative and highly skewed in the employer's favor.
If your goal is to eventually live and work in L.A regardless of what firm you end up with, I say take the job and start looking for jobs at other firms in L.A also.
I did an internship at a corporate firm in L.A about 5 years ago, as a second year undergrad. Taking into account all the overtime pay I got, I easily made over $45K/year, in addition to getting paid to complete LEED exam, monthly transportation expenses, and many other incentives etc
it could be great choice, could be crazy bad. no one here really has a clue, except maybe orhan or other LA long-timers. for perspective 30k is about normal for grad in tokyo (a bit high even). i made dismal wages in london and my friends made even worse when we were getting started, especially the ones at famous offices. but it was what and where we wanted to be. sometimes the crazy choices are worth taking because of things that go beyond simple calculations about fairness or whatever.
if its the oakies in the grapes of wrath its a different story, but if its about gaining experience no other firm will give you because you don't have anything like the experience necessary to run a job in a big firm....well that's a different story.
that said, it is definitely a low wage and likely will be tough. from what you describe it will be tough for years. the payoff better be awesome in other ways. maybe they let you sleep on the floor and you can save on rent ;-)
If you take it, make sure you get paid for overtime (it is the law anyways). Are you still on your parent's health insurance?
I made less when I first started too, but that was a few years ago, in a lost cost area, and was paid overtime. I worked so much overtime I didn't have any time to spend my money! Then I got a 33% raise going to my next job because of all my work experience (working overtime!)
Master's degree doesn't mean shit. You are entitled to nothing by having it. Don't like it... complain to your school. What is the position? Are you going to be designing? Is your years of learning how to design part of the negotiation here? Or is the firm looking for someone to be a draftsman? If the firm is looking for a draftsman than they don't need to hire someone with a fancy Master's degree. They can hire someone with a two year associates degree who probably knows the software better and would be happy with 30k to start. Just saying...
8months is a long time... you gotta start somewhere.
I tend to agree with Will. Give it a try. There's nothing wrong with changing jobs if it doesn't end up working for you.
Ok, he can give it a try. We don't know if he wants that firm, or if he wants L.A. If he wants that firm, then no. If he wants L.A., then he could go. However, if it doesn't work out, then he has to find another job in L.A., or the surroundings. Right now, we don't know if he's in a lower cost area, or even living with family or relatives.
Had a college friend who had to have a job San Francisco. He got a job in San Francisco, and not with a particularly good firm. The mystique wore off in less than 2 years. He returned to his home state and never returned to the Bay Area.
Master's degree doesn't mean shit. You are entitled to nothing by having it. Don't like it... complain to your school.
This is moot. It's all what the school hands out and what educational model they follow. If it was Auburn, for example, he'd have a B.Arch. He probably went somewhere that awarded M.Archs. as accredited degrees.
Without being specific, it would be interesting to know the longevity of the prior two internships and why they didn't turn into something full time after graduating. Sure, there are lots of firms where people intern that they wouldn't want to return to.
I would at the least negotiate the 90 day probationary period. You're investing a lot to move across the country it would be reasonable to start out as a salaried employee. If they let you go after 3 months, what would you do? You'd likely have a year lease somewhere, with no job, and presumably not much savings.
I'm curious if health insurance would kick in once you're a salaried employee. Typically if you are not full time they must pay overtime, and typically if you are full time you would get health insurance. I don't really know all that much about it or California but can they not pay overtime and not give you health insurance as a full time employee?
California tends to be very pro-employee in larger organizations. With mom and pops, like anywhere else, it need not be. However, by law, many more civil protections are in place than they are in other states.
The fact that they are even messing with the OP on the 90 day stuff given the cross-country move is the biggest of the red flags. Again, it depends on how much he wants L.A.
Most employment is at-will, meaning either party can call it quits for no reason (exception: discrimination) unless you have a written contract. Negotiating the probationary period is moot unless you have a contract.
Small businesses (50 or fewer employees) are exempt from providing health insurance, but if they have it, they have to let full-time employees enroll too. That's usually how it works at least.
Yes, I would think almost all states have the at-will model. However, nonperformance is a valid reason, too. Discrimination is a recipe for other issues, and is usually rationalized as something else. Also, I once read in an organizational behavior course that 5/6 of separations are based on lack of fit and 1/6 are based on competence. This means most people can actually do their jobs.
The whole health insurance thing will change in about 7 months. It will be nice to see the underdog have access to insurance, though ACA is lengthy and hard to understand.
Just to clarify, under ACA, small businesses (under 50 employees) are still exempt from providing healthcare benefits, but if they do provide it, they may be eligible for tax breaks.
Fair enough observant. I'm not the guy to talk to about risk taking. For me life is too short to let chances go just because there could be a downside. The real question is what is the upside? It may not be financial. That's all I'm saying. The calculus is not easy though, especially now.
Will, it's a guarantee that he can move to the L.A. area with it. And it guarantees that he suddenly finds himself in SoCal if it didn't work out, as in "I'm here." In other regards, it's a wild card. Everyone has a different tolerance for risk, from high to low, and everything in between. I've moved to schools and cities without knowing anyone, and I did what I had to to make it work, so I'm somewhere between high and low for tolerating risk. Also, it has to do with where you are in life. From the lenses of a new grad, they are actually in the best position to take a leap.
A couple things: Following There is no there there, 90 day probationary periods are pretty typical in California, and I had one as an intern in New York. Expressed probationary period or not, it's worth reiterating that as an at will employee (i.e., no contract), you can be terminated at any time without cause. The 90 period exists to set the employee's expectations, but doesn't mean that you have any less rights.
Also, some on this board seem to think that employers don't provide health insurance out of nothing but stinginess. You should know that until ACA comes into effect, group plans for small businesses under ten are financially impossible. We have eight and the cost per employee quote we received for high deductible plans (>$3500 annually) exceeds $500 per month. I hate it, but it makes more sense for everyone for us to just pay our folks this money in salary, introduce them an insurance broker we trust, and let them arrive at the plan and coverage that works for them (and maybe pocket the difference).
I find this amazing, and typical of our society. When i graduated in 96 from SCI-arc I had already been interning at a similar firm for a year. My full time salary offered (and taken) was 27k. By 2004 I finally hit 50k only because I told them I was looking for better opportunities. Another firm offered 60k and I left on good terms. Through experience I have learned to request what I am worth and what I can live on. It's a choice we all have to make. In 06 I ventured out on my own and have survived through this shitty economy. I find it UNBELIEVABLE that 13 years later someone is being offered that kind of pay. What an insult, not only to Architecture, but to our humanity as well. No wonder society has such disrespect for our profession.
Don't get me started, Ernest. And I agree that that wage makes no sense given that it's 2013 in relation to 1990s wages, which is also when I finished school.
It starts in school: the notion that the student is a bohemian piece of shit and it goes into the internship cycle, where "we know you very badly want to draw, so we'll pay you peanuts."
There was an "issue," albeit of different kinds, at both of the 2 firms at which I spent my 3 years of internship.
I agree that it is an insult and a disservice to the profession as a whole.
He doesn't have to take the job. We still have that choice in the US. (for the time being anyway.) If the offer is so insulting, why don' t one of you offer kenshiro a better job?
Because I don't need the help. That's a real intelligent comment. I truely love my CHOSEN profession and wouldn't change any of my experiences on my journey. We all know how the labor market has worked throughout the years. I went through it because that's all I ever wanted. The one thing that has been difficult over the years is valuing myself and my skills. Which translates into lower fees for my services, in turn hurting the profession overall.
Jun 9, 13 11:05 pm ·
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$30,000 offer for M.Arch Graduate Starting out in Southern California. Yikes?
I recently received an offer from a smaller firm (~15) in Southern California to start at an annual full-time salary of $30K flat with no health insurance and standard vacation days. That's it. I am from the east coast, is $30K even livable in that area? I can't imagine being able to survive on that salary, let alone be anywhere near comfortable or have money to pay down student debt or save. Is anyone in the area working as a recent graduate with a Masters degree for less than $40K? I have about 1.5 years of interning experience while in college, so I am familiar with a working environment and have a fair level of comfort working in small offices. $30K seems very very low, almost unlivable.
Any thoughts on negotiating with them would be great. Thanks!
It's going to be difficult, and your salary is on the low side, but it's not extraordinary. Unfortunately, are a huge number of qualified recent graduates competing for few positions right now, and some employers are either being opportunistic or have been forced to lower compensation because of the competitive environment and lots of downward pressure on fees. Carefully assess the options that you have available. Some job>no job, and it is easier to find a higher paying position when you are employed.
Thank you for the response. I realize times are tough especially for recent graduates, but it simply comes down to numbers for me. $30K is just barely enough to cover living expenses without a car or health insurance. So I would either be demanding a substantial raise after the first year, or would be essentially looking for another job the moment I accept their offer. It also involves moving across the country where I don't know anyone and have no family nearby for support.
I'm mostly curious how others have gone about negotiating an initial offer from a firm if you feel it is too low or basically prohibitive. Anyone who takes this offer would have to be either sitting on a good amount of savings or have someone else they know that can help support them financially. $30K starting salary for just about any Masters degree (let alone architecture) seems almost insulting to be honest. I know an elementary school custodian that just started in his mid twenties making more. I understand the industry isn't in the best shape, but having to negotiate a livable wage seems a little absurd.
30k is low....maybe try for asking for 40 or 45k ? Yeah it might be bad out there but 30 is what I earned in school as an intern. Is the architect super famous or something? Even if they were they still should not pay so low. Unless it was only for 6 months to see if you are competent, with a potential raise afterwards.
In my experience I had a friend bargain for 4k a month for a summer gig at a starchitect's office. He did a 6 month gig before hand and did really well. So he went back the next summer earning as much as a junior architect. However other well known offices typically start ppl around 40k in Cali, that's from my experience.
Ask for 40k, if they say no. Consider taking it but look for other opportunities while working. You are more desirable working then not.
You should try negotiating the offer up at least a little bit. Unless the experience you're getting at that firm is amazing I wouldn't stay for long—that salary is deplorably low and the lack of health insurance is killer.
Thanks for the input guys. The offer is 30K/year starting but they are putting me on a probationary period of 90 days and if we like where things are going and we're both happy then I become full time, but there is (so far) no mention of a raise once the probationary period is over. It's apparently how they handle new hires which isn't that unusual being a smaller firm I suppose.
@archinet, I also earned more ($18/hr) as an intern during undergrad, so being offered less with a Masters for full time seems very low, especially with living expenses in Southern California. And no, they aren't a "starchitect," but a young smaller firm.
If you've already made $18/hr, then ask them to match that.
honestly try to ask for a raise after the probationary period. Most of my friends started around 50k after graduation, some 55k. The lowest I heard of was 37k at a small office around 15ppl. This is up in Canada. And anyways aren't things picking up down there? Just ask, the worst they say is no, but keep your eyes open for other opportunities.From my experience the more they pay the more responsibility you get.
@there is no there, good idea. ty.
@archinet, maybe I should be looking at moving north, Vancouver looks amazing :) Things are "picking up" in the news, but on paper it's a bit of another bubble, thought it does help raise housing prices so people are encouraged to buy/build with cheaper money. In any case, thanks for the insight, it's been helpful.
$30k? That should keep you below the professional exemption clause in the CA labor department - which should mean they have to pay you 1.5x salary rate for overtime?
@3tk, not sure, I'll ask. thanks.
N-O.
That offer is simply unacceptable and that "firm" should be ashamed of themselves.
NO.
You cannot make it in SoCal on that kind of money today. Period. Then, NO health insurance, to boot. This is actually indicative of a firm you don't want to be associated with. Are they, without being specific, "bohemian?"
When I started working, in the 90s, I got close to that, with health insurance and vacation, and it wasn't easy, and it wasn't even SoCal. And it was also a crappy firm, not in terms of what I learned, but in terms of the "alumni club" management. I licensed after a stint at another firm, then switched again, and my salary increased.
I would stay away from them. There was recently a thread on $42,000 to start in SoCal with a M.Arch. and some of us indicated that they could edge up a little more.
I wouldn't even bother negotiating, thank them for their offer and keep looking.
@observant, They are actually a growing and successful firm in the area with a lot of projects on their plate. It seems that they are just very hesitant to offer more money up front until you have proven your worth. I don't know how common the probationary period is for a Masters grad, but it's a situation where you work for 3 months, if it doesn't work out, you leave. If it does work out, they put you on salary and give you a small pay bump consummate with your performance. The problem is even if I do stay and get a bump to 40K, which is probably out of the question for a 1 or 2 year employee hired in at 30k though I'm not sure, is still not a lot to live on in the area. They are essentially selling me an opportunity to work in a very busy and growing young firm (~8 years), with the ability to take on multiple roles early on as a designer, but at the price of pay. Right now it comes to if it's worth it to just go for it and rough it out for 3 months and re-evaluate later. They are not flexible on the pay fwiw. It's take it or leave it.
"It's take it or leave it."
If you have other opportunities, take one of those. If you don't have other opportunities, keep searching for something that is more suitable for you.
How you make this decision is fundamentally tied to your confidence in your own competence and your ability to contribute. Don't sell yourself short.
Kenshiro:
What you learn as you mature is that "there's lots of opportunity," especially in a small or newer outfit, is merely a sales pitch, and it can be true, but maybe not for everyone to whom it is conveyed. $30,000 is $14.42 an hour. You can't live in SoCal on that. I would not sell myself short and keep looking.
If it's like San Diego or far East LA... maybe. Anywhere else? Nope.
Just applied for a job that required immediate on call availability in Lower Manhattan, chatted via email with the HR director and found out the pay was only $29,500 and someone with a M.A. was ahead of me in the interview queue.
You said this is part time? How many hours?
Wait...first you say full time, then you say full time after 90 days....is $30K for full time or part time?
i had a couple internships, an m.arch, and started at 30k. i think that's pretty much the lowest i'd expect for any college educated job. its a foot in the door and some real experience, anyway. if you don't have any options besides them, you take it. then if something comes up in 3 months ask for more money, and if they don't, leave. that's the risk any employer assumes when they pay below market value for an employee.
A couple of other things:
(1) that $14.42 per hour, on $30K a year, is pre-tax, (2) if they get overtime off of you for free, that is majorly screwed, and (3) they are taking advantage of the market ... they can definitely bill you at 3x that rate, and then some.
Others in more "balanced" or less "gotta have it" markets, please chime in. What are they paying, for a FT salary (or per hour, but still FT basis), in places like Houston, Dallas, Denver, St. Louis, Kansas City, and Minneapolis, among others?
There are some major firms in L.A. How about cutting your teeth at one of those, and then being more adventurous with an avant-garde and more uncharted firm?
@Kevin W, It's a 90 day probationary period, and if we like each other I become a permanent employee for 30K the first year. They pay me the 30K hourly equivalent until the 3 months is up then I go salary, but I would be working full time throughout.
The primary issue is it's the only offer I currently have on the table. I am 8 months out of school and starting to get concerned about how long it may take for another to come along if I pass. Firm location isn't a major factor for me, though I of course prefer it be in a city or metropolitan area for a handful of reasons. I wish it were as easy as just applying to every major firm and getting at least one offer. Unless you already have connections with someone inside a firm, it's very difficult competing against the sea of graduates. I have held off on head-hunters but perhaps it's time to go that route? I know a lot of design firms don't like dealing with them but at this point I feel I need to make myself more visible in the market in whatever ways possible.
Its an insult but hey, in this economy and job market, I guess its okay to start with that figure. Unless you were at the top of your class, interned at many firms, have plenty of achievements and awards, we can't really expect much like other engineering professions where your skills can be somewhat quantified based on marks, tests etc. Architecture is flaky and people are often judged not on the work they do but who they are and how well liked they are. I'd say, stick with it for a few months and if the next raise isn't significant, get the hell out of there. That again depends on where your skills are so you have to be honest with yourself. But the fact that you were able to get through masters warrants a pay much higher than working at McDonalds you know. If I were you, I'd rather go work in some Hollywood studio designing digital sets for movies you know ;) Get paid 70K/year and just worry about design and none of the other b.s ^^
No.
A firm offering 30K for a M.Arch grad in 2013 in North America is not seriously considering you. Employers are well aware of industry standards and typically if they post dramatically lower it is likely they are only looking for a short term position (which they do not tell you).
Without knowing your financial situation, do not take what sounds like a ridiculous offer.
Our firm pays students in the middle of school 20 dollars an hour... with 1.5x pay overtime.
I spoke with the principle today for a good hour or so about all of this. His sentiments were that he really liked my work from school and the handful of internships I've had, and was really pushing the idea that they wanted me to stay on for at least 2 years if things were going well after the first 90 days. Is it worth it to make essentially no money to have at least 3 months of recent professional work experience? I am flying across the country to work for them as well fwiw.
My main concern is that even if I do like the work and the firm and ask for a raise, starting at 30k really lowers the ceiling on future raises even 3-5 years out. I'm not out to get wealthy or demand a 50k+ salary in 2-3 years, but I don't know that they can accommodate or offer enough of a pay raise within the next year or two to give me enough incentive to continue working there. I really want to work with them and I am very eager to get started in general, and I understand that early on it's more about the experience than the pay, but at a certain point I need a more livable wage otherwise I have more incentive to jump ship for better offers in the near future. However, turning down my only offer in a long time just feels wrong considering my position and the status of the industry.
Perhaps I just wasn't expecting a very difficult decision over my first offer. If they had offered me 40k I would have accepted instantly with a smile on my face and been on the first flight out.
Screw them. Seriously. Jacques is correct. Not only that, this principal is putting you on hourly for 90 days, and then putting you on the full-time payroll? The serious employer puts you on the payroll at a salaried wage and gives you a probationary period. In terms of paperwork, it's not that hard. They have to do payroll, anyway. Did he ever mention overtime pay or comp time? Did he ever mention if insurance would kick in later? Not only that, you now mention you've had a few internships, so if you have 4 to 6 months of experience, some other employer absorbed the toughest part of the learning curve, so you should be able to be more productive than someone who has never set foot in an office. Then, it requires moving across the country. Let me tell you something else I've observed. Given that they are trying to entice someone from far away, Los Angeles and its surroundings are not lacking for talent from the schools and people who descend on the area to work, it could mean that the firm might have a less than desirable reputation as an employer and "locals" are passing on them. If a blue chip firm in L.A. is paying market rate, they wouldn't toss out such ridiculous conditions, they'd be respected, and people wouldn't hesitate to take their offers. This isn't a balancing of positives and negatives. Most of the variables are negative and highly skewed in the employer's favor.
If your goal is to eventually live and work in L.A regardless of what firm you end up with, I say take the job and start looking for jobs at other firms in L.A also.
I did an internship at a corporate firm in L.A about 5 years ago, as a second year undergrad. Taking into account all the overtime pay I got, I easily made over $45K/year, in addition to getting paid to complete LEED exam, monthly transportation expenses, and many other incentives etc
it could be great choice, could be crazy bad. no one here really has a clue, except maybe orhan or other LA long-timers. for perspective 30k is about normal for grad in tokyo (a bit high even). i made dismal wages in london and my friends made even worse when we were getting started, especially the ones at famous offices. but it was what and where we wanted to be. sometimes the crazy choices are worth taking because of things that go beyond simple calculations about fairness or whatever.
if its the oakies in the grapes of wrath its a different story, but if its about gaining experience no other firm will give you because you don't have anything like the experience necessary to run a job in a big firm....well that's a different story.
that said, it is definitely a low wage and likely will be tough. from what you describe it will be tough for years. the payoff better be awesome in other ways. maybe they let you sleep on the floor and you can save on rent ;-)
If you take it, make sure you get paid for overtime (it is the law anyways). Are you still on your parent's health insurance?
I made less when I first started too, but that was a few years ago, in a lost cost area, and was paid overtime. I worked so much overtime I didn't have any time to spend my money! Then I got a 33% raise going to my next job because of all my work experience (working overtime!)
Kenshiro you said this: I really want to work with them and I am very eager to get started in general
Then Will said this: sometimes the crazy choices are worth taking because of things that go beyond simple calculations about fairness or whatever.
I tend to agree with Will. Give it a try. There's nothing wrong with changing jobs if it doesn't end up working for you.
Master's degree doesn't mean shit. You are entitled to nothing by having it. Don't like it... complain to your school. What is the position? Are you going to be designing? Is your years of learning how to design part of the negotiation here? Or is the firm looking for someone to be a draftsman? If the firm is looking for a draftsman than they don't need to hire someone with a fancy Master's degree. They can hire someone with a two year associates degree who probably knows the software better and would be happy with 30k to start. Just saying...
8months is a long time... you gotta start somewhere.
I tend to agree with Will. Give it a try. There's nothing wrong with changing jobs if it doesn't end up working for you.
Ok, he can give it a try. We don't know if he wants that firm, or if he wants L.A. If he wants that firm, then no. If he wants L.A., then he could go. However, if it doesn't work out, then he has to find another job in L.A., or the surroundings. Right now, we don't know if he's in a lower cost area, or even living with family or relatives.
Had a college friend who had to have a job San Francisco. He got a job in San Francisco, and not with a particularly good firm. The mystique wore off in less than 2 years. He returned to his home state and never returned to the Bay Area.
Master's degree doesn't mean shit. You are entitled to nothing by having it. Don't like it... complain to your school.
This is moot. It's all what the school hands out and what educational model they follow. If it was Auburn, for example, he'd have a B.Arch. He probably went somewhere that awarded M.Archs. as accredited degrees.
Without being specific, it would be interesting to know the longevity of the prior two internships and why they didn't turn into something full time after graduating. Sure, there are lots of firms where people intern that they wouldn't want to return to.
I would at the least negotiate the 90 day probationary period. You're investing a lot to move across the country it would be reasonable to start out as a salaried employee. If they let you go after 3 months, what would you do? You'd likely have a year lease somewhere, with no job, and presumably not much savings.
I'm curious if health insurance would kick in once you're a salaried employee. Typically if you are not full time they must pay overtime, and typically if you are full time you would get health insurance. I don't really know all that much about it or California but can they not pay overtime and not give you health insurance as a full time employee?
California tends to be very pro-employee in larger organizations. With mom and pops, like anywhere else, it need not be. However, by law, many more civil protections are in place than they are in other states.
The fact that they are even messing with the OP on the 90 day stuff given the cross-country move is the biggest of the red flags. Again, it depends on how much he wants L.A.
Most employment is at-will, meaning either party can call it quits for no reason (exception: discrimination) unless you have a written contract. Negotiating the probationary period is moot unless you have a contract.
Small businesses (50 or fewer employees) are exempt from providing health insurance, but if they have it, they have to let full-time employees enroll too. That's usually how it works at least.
^
Yes, I would think almost all states have the at-will model. However, nonperformance is a valid reason, too. Discrimination is a recipe for other issues, and is usually rationalized as something else. Also, I once read in an organizational behavior course that 5/6 of separations are based on lack of fit and 1/6 are based on competence. This means most people can actually do their jobs.
The whole health insurance thing will change in about 7 months. It will be nice to see the underdog have access to insurance, though ACA is lengthy and hard to understand.
Just to clarify, under ACA, small businesses (under 50 employees) are still exempt from providing healthcare benefits, but if they do provide it, they may be eligible for tax breaks.
No Idea what the schools have to do with it.
Will, it's a guarantee that he can move to the L.A. area with it. And it guarantees that he suddenly finds himself in SoCal if it didn't work out, as in "I'm here." In other regards, it's a wild card. Everyone has a different tolerance for risk, from high to low, and everything in between. I've moved to schools and cities without knowing anyone, and I did what I had to to make it work, so I'm somewhere between high and low for tolerating risk. Also, it has to do with where you are in life. From the lenses of a new grad, they are actually in the best position to take a leap.
A couple things: Following There is no there there, 90 day probationary periods are pretty typical in California, and I had one as an intern in New York. Expressed probationary period or not, it's worth reiterating that as an at will employee (i.e., no contract), you can be terminated at any time without cause. The 90 period exists to set the employee's expectations, but doesn't mean that you have any less rights.
Also, some on this board seem to think that employers don't provide health insurance out of nothing but stinginess. You should know that until ACA comes into effect, group plans for small businesses under ten are financially impossible. We have eight and the cost per employee quote we received for high deductible plans (>$3500 annually) exceeds $500 per month. I hate it, but it makes more sense for everyone for us to just pay our folks this money in salary, introduce them an insurance broker we trust, and let them arrive at the plan and coverage that works for them (and maybe pocket the difference).
I just got a quote for small business insurance yesterday, it was $991/per enrollee per month. This was a pretty good PPO plan though.
Don't get me started, Ernest. And I agree that that wage makes no sense given that it's 2013 in relation to 1990s wages, which is also when I finished school.
It starts in school: the notion that the student is a bohemian piece of shit and it goes into the internship cycle, where "we know you very badly want to draw, so we'll pay you peanuts."
There was an "issue," albeit of different kinds, at both of the 2 firms at which I spent my 3 years of internship.
I agree that it is an insult and a disservice to the profession as a whole.
He doesn't have to take the job. We still have that choice in the US. (for the time being anyway.) If the offer is so insulting, why don' t one of you offer kenshiro a better job?
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