My dad in Hong Kong (low tax) makes $200,000 US a year, selling boats..
I was wondering if i'd be able to be successful as an Architect to make as much as him.. However, i have gone through the polls, and most architects make 60,000 a year..
per the 2005 AIA Compensation Survey (latest available) senior principals at firms with 20 or more people typically earn total annual compensation of $200k or higher. they also carry considerable liability exposures as owners of the business.
in my experience, it's relatively rare (but not impossible) for non-owners to generate annual income at that level.
problem is... it doesnt make sense.. my dad pays alot, and I end up making less than expected.. How does an Architect which works for long hours make less than my dad who isnt even one of the best boat dealers in his family..
hahaha, nice one postal... you see... i don't really look up to my dad... but he seems to make alot.. and I would feel very pressured at the fact that I would make less than my dad.. Who would want to live under their parents roof at the age of 30? Another problem i face, is that fact that I would have to live with a room mate after graduating as I wouldnt be able to afford an apartment... I guess I would have to get used to this..
lawrence ... it depends on what you want out of life. if all you want is to earn 200k per year, then perhaps you're in the wrong field to start with -- unlike the law, it's not routine for architects to make $200k per year.
if you want the risk and anxiety and hard work and responsibility that goes with owning your own business, then you can more reasonably expect to earn at that level. but, you also pay a pretty high price to be in that position.
it's a truism that not everybody is equipped to start and operate a design firm successfully -- the skill set required to grow and run a firm with 20+ employees is not something typically taught in architecture school. the appropriate temperament is not teachable.
I guess i chose to pursue architecture, as I enjoy designing, being inspired by other architects and enjoy admiring architectural structures. The satisfaction of creating an inspiring structure was the major factor for me to take architecture. Money is a secondary factor, as It would help prove to myself that I can be more succesful compared to my dad.
being an architect(employee) will not get you there.
Your options:
1: start a side business to create additional income
2: start a full time business and focus on that
3: after decades of experience in architecture, have wealthy clients pay you craploads for your amazing designs, although chances are low this will occur.
4: become financially educated, develop real estate, and make money as the owner of the buildings you design.
or 5: wait till you inherit all the money your dad is making :)
lawrence -- stop for a moment to consider the true meaning of the word "success" -- imho, money is a poor way to measure success -- at best, money is a by-product of being successful, not the essence.
i know many plumbers who probaby make more money than I do -- being a professional, i respect what they do and what they earn, but I don't necessarily measure my own success against theirs. for starters, i don't have to go to work every day, worrying whether i'll come home that night covered in s**t.
you gonna pay your dad back for all the diapers and baby food? the rent for the first however many years of your life?... don't reduce the relationship you have with your father to an "investment"
what you need to do, in this day and age, is save enough money to send your kids to college...
did your dad invest in you pursuing architecture with the idea that you would be making more money than him at some point?
because that is the first problem, since it will take you a good number of years to reach that sort of salary, if at all. he is placing very unrealistic expectations on you if that is the case, just by the nature of architecture as a profession
do you think you owe this to your dad? or is this something he is pressuring you about. if he is making $200,000 a year, he probably doesnt need you to pay him back.
here is a way to pay him back
design his dream house for him
he sounds like he can afford it, and if you design it for him, thats a way to pay him back for all his help
precisely quizzical. so being from the same culture (probably), i can relate better perhaps. or with more credibility?
i saw the whole deal coming down the path so i sidestepped the "investment in my future" issue by paying my own way through work (couple years between undergrad and grad school) and the help of some student loans...so there's no obligation or guilt on my part to do anything with my life except what's right for me, even if that means making squat or travelling for months at a time. of course, that means i own no house, car, nor cash for that matter. but so be it for now.
LC, i know you're on the flip side, having accepted the investment and now worried about the whole issue of "face", right? well, as others have said, you really are in the wrong profession if you are expecting 200k anytime soon, unless you are exceptionally talented. so take impalajunkie's advice and find another way to make money.
you also need to stop measuring success as being an income level relative to your father's. n_ is right in that respect. and don't correlate hours worked with income either. these are antiquated notions from the perspective of a culture that is very conservative and traditional. you need to work smart, not hard. and measure success by happiness and quality of life, not by the size of your bank account.
me, i'm moving on to development in the next few years with whatever money i can scrape up, confident that what i've learned in all my jobs will have me ready to succeed in niche markets that i carve for myself. that means not only having the right experience in design, but also in finance, marketing, people management, etc. everything.
Yes its possible, although what I pay myself, and what I keep in the company is important, to grow the company, diversify what the company does ie buy stuff like the office space we work in or speculative building opportunities.
keep your overhead low and keep the money in your control.
i guess a question to ask is when do you want to be able to pay him back by?
how long have you been out of school? because i imagine you need a good number of years working before you can start your own firm, and then need some time to build it up to make it successful
can you wait to pay him back? or is it something you feel needs to happen soon
you definitely need to pay your dues as an architect, before you can make the big bucks
youre not going to make 200,000 sitting behind a desk or by being out on site,
only way is going to be by you going out and finding work, having a tight staff of trustworthy people working for you own good and you are going to have to support them
your main priority in find work, staff jobs, do quality work so you get repeat clients, you may not do the work you want to be doing ideally
marketing manager
business/financial manager
licensed architect that knows their stuff
draftsperson/junior designer
you out there hitting the pavement
youre going to have to make a hell of a lot more than 200,000 to accomplish you making 200,000
otherwise, its all going to come with time at the right job, you see if youre not bringing in work, or an EXTREMELY valuable employee, they why the heck would anyone want to pay you that much, people who make big money bring in big money, period
my post was never added the other day - shite. Anyway my plan for 200k would involve real estate and a little financial investment.
I'd spend 75k to complete development of the house I already own as well as partially pay of the mortgage. I would put the house on the market meanwhile, looking for another renovation project in Montserrat. I'd look to spend maximum 130K on the purchase, with input of about 50k. I'd do this a few times, retaining approximately 45k for living expenses, and the balance on a high yield bond based investment with a 3 year roll-over.
Basically I'd look to turn 200k into 500k (inclusive of equity) over a three span.
Oh and I'd take 2 months vacation per annum in Tobago/Jamaica and some other place I've never been. Ask me how.
another issue, and this is regarding "getting work"
work does not just walk in the door, and it takes time to reply to rfp's and get all the balls in the air, plus a lot of the time is spent on trying to bring in work and what is the ratio of jobs youre gunning for versus signed contracts
as per Zaha/Foster, come up with an amazing design and team up with a local firm that will exceute it, get some scope for CA so you can be in the submittal review chain/con. meetings to assure some quality control and that things stay in line with the original intent and youre scoring some dollars
would you say that there is a substantial risk in bidding as a member of a design build team because of the substantial amount of work required to be done initially with no guarantee of selection
is this characteristic of all design/build jobs?
many federal jobs that we have bid on are done design/build this way and we gotten stung by this many times and still keep getting burned, although we have gotten quite a few jobs in this manner
start trading options and stocks......
And when you have enough money you can quit working for other people, who are always going to underpay you so they can live on Park Avenue. Then you can design build your own stuff; be finically successful and personally satisfied. Anyway, that’s my 10 year plan!!!
My dad never said i'd have to pay him back, and he has never said that he has invested in me.. He hasn't forced me into taking architecture, but has only suggested me to take professional degrees, ie engineering, architecture, medicine etc..
I guess its a physiological mind set I have (i'm only 18....) I enjoy designing art/structures, appreciate different structures, and have been good at my maths and physics.. therefore I chose the path of being an architect, as it seems for fulfilling to create great structures and have a good reputation. This seems more favorable compared to being an engineer, as most of my family members are.
My dad has influenced me into taking architecture by the slightest, where he told me I would be able to approve projects, (even boat projects) when I get my licence
lawrence -- I think it's admirable (and refreshing) that you feel an obligation to your parents for the support they have provided over the years -- and may be providing still.
as a parent myself of two children slightly older than you, I'd venture to say that you may be placing too much pressure on yourself. I suspect your parents already understands your appreciation, want you to be happy, and are more than willing to support you as you pursue your own personal goals.
however, it never hurts to reinforce the gratitude you feel whenever you see them. but without specific evidence to the contrary, I would expect that their most valuable "payback" is to see you become happy and successful (by whatever relevant measure exists) in your chosen profession.
just be the best person you possibly can be, work hard at becoming a good architect, and make sure your parents know how you feel about them and what they've helped you become ... I'm reasonably confident your parents will be totally proud of that outcome.
yeah, I think being happy is as much as any parent hope for. It is a lot more than most achieve.
I do, however, feel great that I am in a position to go in with them on a family vacation home. I hope someday my kids, should I ever have them, my nephew and younger sisters will enjoy.
I also hope it gets me super famous and I am swamped with tons of requests for $1000/sq. ft. homes, awards and covers of magazines.
as another parent with kids much younger than you i would also agree. there is very little i would not do for my children and mostly i would be happy to see them happy...don't know if HK culture is different. I do like however that you don't seem to see your future as an entitlement.
if you want to make lots of money as an architect you can probably do it by becoming a principal in a firm, but that will taked a long time (usually) and the reward vs risk aspect will be a difficult thing to deal with often enough.
the other choice is real estate. i know of at least two star architects who make most of their money in real estate and other business and for whom architecture is a large side business that sometimes intersects with the actual big-income generating work. getting architecture to work that way for you is not easy though. i suspect also that few architects are mentally equipped or interested in the process...probably result of the socialist doctrine that inherently exists in almost all (western at least) architecture schools even now (thank you walter gropius).
jump,
"the other choice is real estate. i know of at least two star architects who make most of their money in real estate and other business and for whom architecture is a large side business that sometimes intersects with the actual big-income generating work"
which architects are you referring to? I'm considering going along that path myself.
Also you mention that the socialist doctrine is prevalent in arch schools in the west....awesome I love to argue with commies.
$200,000 a year?
My dad in Hong Kong (low tax) makes $200,000 US a year, selling boats..
I was wondering if i'd be able to be successful as an Architect to make as much as him.. However, i have gone through the polls, and most architects make 60,000 a year..
discuss?
sell boats part time and be an architect part time and make 130,000
per the 2005 AIA Compensation Survey (latest available) senior principals at firms with 20 or more people typically earn total annual compensation of $200k or higher. they also carry considerable liability exposures as owners of the business.
in my experience, it's relatively rare (but not impossible) for non-owners to generate annual income at that level.
problem is... it doesnt make sense.. my dad pays alot, and I end up making less than expected.. How does an Architect which works for long hours make less than my dad who isnt even one of the best boat dealers in his family..
I see.. so I have to work under a company for a few years, then hope to be successful, then open my own buisness?
people like boats...
architects like architecture...
architects are not people...
LC, if you want to make more than your pops, avoid architecture. There are much easier ways to make $$$ than architecture.
hahaha, nice one postal... you see... i don't really look up to my dad... but he seems to make alot.. and I would feel very pressured at the fact that I would make less than my dad.. Who would want to live under their parents roof at the age of 30? Another problem i face, is that fact that I would have to live with a room mate after graduating as I wouldnt be able to afford an apartment... I guess I would have to get used to this..
lawrence ... it depends on what you want out of life. if all you want is to earn 200k per year, then perhaps you're in the wrong field to start with -- unlike the law, it's not routine for architects to make $200k per year.
if you want the risk and anxiety and hard work and responsibility that goes with owning your own business, then you can more reasonably expect to earn at that level. but, you also pay a pretty high price to be in that position.
it's a truism that not everybody is equipped to start and operate a design firm successfully -- the skill set required to grow and run a firm with 20+ employees is not something typically taught in architecture school. the appropriate temperament is not teachable.
I guess i chose to pursue architecture, as I enjoy designing, being inspired by other architects and enjoy admiring architectural structures. The satisfaction of creating an inspiring structure was the major factor for me to take architecture. Money is a secondary factor, as It would help prove to myself that I can be more succesful compared to my dad.
being an architect(employee) will not get you there.
Your options:
1: start a side business to create additional income
2: start a full time business and focus on that
3: after decades of experience in architecture, have wealthy clients pay you craploads for your amazing designs, although chances are low this will occur.
4: become financially educated, develop real estate, and make money as the owner of the buildings you design.
or 5: wait till you inherit all the money your dad is making :)
You've much larger problems if you feel pressure because you make less than your father.
well, its the fact that my dad invested a load of money into me, and it is my duty to make enough to pay my parents back..
lawrence -- stop for a moment to consider the true meaning of the word "success" -- imho, money is a poor way to measure success -- at best, money is a by-product of being successful, not the essence.
i know many plumbers who probaby make more money than I do -- being a professional, i respect what they do and what they earn, but I don't necessarily measure my own success against theirs. for starters, i don't have to go to work every day, worrying whether i'll come home that night covered in s**t.
you gonna pay your dad back for all the diapers and baby food? the rent for the first however many years of your life?... don't reduce the relationship you have with your father to an "investment"
what you need to do, in this day and age, is save enough money to send your kids to college...
if your dad invested alot of money in you then obviously he is a fool
fellas...i suspect we have a cultural issue here that we westerners may not fully appreciate.
did your dad invest in you pursuing architecture with the idea that you would be making more money than him at some point?
because that is the first problem, since it will take you a good number of years to reach that sort of salary, if at all. he is placing very unrealistic expectations on you if that is the case, just by the nature of architecture as a profession
do you think you owe this to your dad? or is this something he is pressuring you about. if he is making $200,000 a year, he probably doesnt need you to pay him back.
here is a way to pay him back
design his dream house for him
he sounds like he can afford it, and if you design it for him, thats a way to pay him back for all his help
I do think there is a cultural issue here. The way westerners usually pay their parents back for their investment is grandkids.
you should tell them, either i pay you back the money, or you get grandkids
i bet your mother will resolve this pretty quickly
haha
precisely quizzical. so being from the same culture (probably), i can relate better perhaps. or with more credibility?
i saw the whole deal coming down the path so i sidestepped the "investment in my future" issue by paying my own way through work (couple years between undergrad and grad school) and the help of some student loans...so there's no obligation or guilt on my part to do anything with my life except what's right for me, even if that means making squat or travelling for months at a time. of course, that means i own no house, car, nor cash for that matter. but so be it for now.
LC, i know you're on the flip side, having accepted the investment and now worried about the whole issue of "face", right? well, as others have said, you really are in the wrong profession if you are expecting 200k anytime soon, unless you are exceptionally talented. so take impalajunkie's advice and find another way to make money.
you also need to stop measuring success as being an income level relative to your father's. n_ is right in that respect. and don't correlate hours worked with income either. these are antiquated notions from the perspective of a culture that is very conservative and traditional. you need to work smart, not hard. and measure success by happiness and quality of life, not by the size of your bank account.
me, i'm moving on to development in the next few years with whatever money i can scrape up, confident that what i've learned in all my jobs will have me ready to succeed in niche markets that i carve for myself. that means not only having the right experience in design, but also in finance, marketing, people management, etc. everything.
Go into architecture because you love architecture, not because you love money.
If you love money, become an investment banker or stockbroker.
If you love boats, sell boats.
Make money doing what you love. Don't do something you don't like just to play into the societal trap of "money=success."
Don't Be an architect if you love Boats.
go to a cheap school...
Yes its possible, although what I pay myself, and what I keep in the company is important, to grow the company, diversify what the company does ie buy stuff like the office space we work in or speculative building opportunities.
keep your overhead low and keep the money in your control.
go work for an ibank.
i guess a question to ask is when do you want to be able to pay him back by?
how long have you been out of school? because i imagine you need a good number of years working before you can start your own firm, and then need some time to build it up to make it successful
can you wait to pay him back? or is it something you feel needs to happen soon
you definitely need to pay your dues as an architect, before you can make the big bucks
youre not going to make 200,000 sitting behind a desk or by being out on site,
only way is going to be by you going out and finding work, having a tight staff of trustworthy people working for you own good and you are going to have to support them
your main priority in find work, staff jobs, do quality work so you get repeat clients, you may not do the work you want to be doing ideally
marketing manager
business/financial manager
licensed architect that knows their stuff
draftsperson/junior designer
you out there hitting the pavement
youre going to have to make a hell of a lot more than 200,000 to accomplish you making 200,000
otherwise, its all going to come with time at the right job, you see if youre not bringing in work, or an EXTREMELY valuable employee, they why the heck would anyone want to pay you that much, people who make big money bring in big money, period
i think that architecture in the traditional design/bid/build sense takes time
the question is what services can we provide as architects that are high fee, quick turnaround, moderate risk, no callbacks
pfft. in hong kong the only measurement of success is money. that's why they're all in business majors overseas.
my post was never added the other day - shite. Anyway my plan for 200k would involve real estate and a little financial investment.
I'd spend 75k to complete development of the house I already own as well as partially pay of the mortgage. I would put the house on the market meanwhile, looking for another renovation project in Montserrat. I'd look to spend maximum 130K on the purchase, with input of about 50k. I'd do this a few times, retaining approximately 45k for living expenses, and the balance on a high yield bond based investment with a 3 year roll-over.
Basically I'd look to turn 200k into 500k (inclusive of equity) over a three span.
Oh and I'd take 2 months vacation per annum in Tobago/Jamaica and some other place I've never been. Ask me how.
meta, why waste time with design-build? why not just do develop-sell?
another issue, and this is regarding "getting work"
work does not just walk in the door, and it takes time to reply to rfp's and get all the balls in the air, plus a lot of the time is spent on trying to bring in work and what is the ratio of jobs youre gunning for versus signed contracts
who said getting work was easy? lol
as per Zaha/Foster, come up with an amazing design and team up with a local firm that will exceute it, get some scope for CA so you can be in the submittal review chain/con. meetings to assure some quality control and that things stay in line with the original intent and youre scoring some dollars
rinse and repeat
imo:
selling boats + $$$$ = worth it
architecture + $ + passion = worth it
meta,
would you say that there is a substantial risk in bidding as a member of a design build team because of the substantial amount of work required to be done initially with no guarantee of selection
is this characteristic of all design/build jobs?
many federal jobs that we have bid on are done design/build this way and we gotten stung by this many times and still keep getting burned, although we have gotten quite a few jobs in this manner
thanks. Uhmmm making boats eh?
start trading options and stocks......
And when you have enough money you can quit working for other people, who are always going to underpay you so they can live on Park Avenue. Then you can design build your own stuff; be finically successful and personally satisfied. Anyway, that’s my 10 year plan!!!
people will gladly pay $$$ for a boat but not for architecture
I see a business plan here:
Architect are poor
Contractors love boats
The starving architect gets rich selling boats to contractors.
i am actually thinking about making wooden boats when I move to Seattle
What happened to Portland?
SLEEP WITH YOUR MOTHER
KILL YOUR FATHER
BLIND YOURSELF...
KILL THE FATHER
FUCK THE MOTHER
KILL THE FATHER
FUCK THE MOTHER
KILL THE FATHER
FUCK THE MOTHER
I AM THE LIZARD KING
hard day, vado and apurimac?
My dad never said i'd have to pay him back, and he has never said that he has invested in me.. He hasn't forced me into taking architecture, but has only suggested me to take professional degrees, ie engineering, architecture, medicine etc..
I guess its a physiological mind set I have (i'm only 18....) I enjoy designing art/structures, appreciate different structures, and have been good at my maths and physics.. therefore I chose the path of being an architect, as it seems for fulfilling to create great structures and have a good reputation. This seems more favorable compared to being an engineer, as most of my family members are.
My dad has influenced me into taking architecture by the slightest, where he told me I would be able to approve projects, (even boat projects) when I get my licence
isn't per corell a boat builder? i bet he'd like his son to become an architect too
lawrence -- I think it's admirable (and refreshing) that you feel an obligation to your parents for the support they have provided over the years -- and may be providing still.
as a parent myself of two children slightly older than you, I'd venture to say that you may be placing too much pressure on yourself. I suspect your parents already understands your appreciation, want you to be happy, and are more than willing to support you as you pursue your own personal goals.
however, it never hurts to reinforce the gratitude you feel whenever you see them. but without specific evidence to the contrary, I would expect that their most valuable "payback" is to see you become happy and successful (by whatever relevant measure exists) in your chosen profession.
just be the best person you possibly can be, work hard at becoming a good architect, and make sure your parents know how you feel about them and what they've helped you become ... I'm reasonably confident your parents will be totally proud of that outcome.
yeah, I think being happy is as much as any parent hope for. It is a lot more than most achieve.
I do, however, feel great that I am in a position to go in with them on a family vacation home. I hope someday my kids, should I ever have them, my nephew and younger sisters will enjoy.
I also hope it gets me super famous and I am swamped with tons of requests for $1000/sq. ft. homes, awards and covers of magazines.
as another parent with kids much younger than you i would also agree. there is very little i would not do for my children and mostly i would be happy to see them happy...don't know if HK culture is different. I do like however that you don't seem to see your future as an entitlement.
if you want to make lots of money as an architect you can probably do it by becoming a principal in a firm, but that will taked a long time (usually) and the reward vs risk aspect will be a difficult thing to deal with often enough.
the other choice is real estate. i know of at least two star architects who make most of their money in real estate and other business and for whom architecture is a large side business that sometimes intersects with the actual big-income generating work. getting architecture to work that way for you is not easy though. i suspect also that few architects are mentally equipped or interested in the process...probably result of the socialist doctrine that inherently exists in almost all (western at least) architecture schools even now (thank you walter gropius).
jump,
"the other choice is real estate. i know of at least two star architects who make most of their money in real estate and other business and for whom architecture is a large side business that sometimes intersects with the actual big-income generating work"
which architects are you referring to? I'm considering going along that path myself.
Also you mention that the socialist doctrine is prevalent in arch schools in the west....awesome I love to argue with commies.
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.