Ok, so I was curious this evening and did some "I wish I didn't have massive debt" shopping for new cars. I was mostly interested in hybrids since doing my tax returns recently I was reminded that if I purchases a hybrid, I could get a credit (which I further researched that once a model reached 60,000 sales, the rebate would be phased out over a year....so Prius and Civic HD are out). Well, the Prius style doesn't quite do it for me. And the Civic Hybrid is not nearly as sleek as their supped SI Coupe version (which certainly appeals to my desire but not my conscience). Plus, I want a hatchback so while I have a compact, I can haul those 2x4s when I need them. So here is what I found:
HONDA CIVIC GX 1.8L 4, auto [CNG] c CTY24 HWY36
TOYOTA PRIUS 1.5L 4, auto CVT CTY48 HWY45
--------
HONDA FIT 1.5L 4, manual CTY28 HWY34
Here are some factors I used from Honda's Savings Calculator I found that the Prius matches Honda's estimates, so we will just compare the Fit to the Civic Hybrid -but you Prius arguably is a few miles higher than the Civic, just a few-
Gas Price: $3.2/gal
Miles/day: 10 miles (This is just an average for me. I live about 1.5 miles from school, and I drive about 5-15 miles for shopping, and take a few trips to Chicago. For others, this will be more, but if I move to a big city, I'd rather take transit and use the car for trips and long distance shopping, I'll give an alternative)
10 miles/day: You save $419.87 after 5 years with the Civic over the Fit
50 miles/day: You save $2,099.35 after 5 years with the Civic over the Fit
100 miles/day: You save $4,198.69 after 5 years with the Civic over the Fit
Now what does a Civic Hybrid cost over a Fit?
Civic Hybrid's suggested retail price is: $22,600
Fit's suggested retail price is: $13,950
For a grand difference of $8,650.
So if you drive a little over 206 miles per DAY then you'll make up the costs in the Fit after 5 years....yeah...
Now, I'm comparing a compact hatchback to a compact sedan hybrid. But the price of the hybrid is certainly a bit too high and we are most certain it will lower. In fact, Honda has stated that by 2009 or 2010 a model (new or retrofit) will come out that is a new generation of hybrid that is much cheaper than the Civic. Also as note the Prius has a suggested retail price of 21,100.
This isn't to say, don't invest in hybrid technology, it's a good thing, and will save you money. If your going from a Ford Expedition to a Civic Hybrid, then you'll notice a difference.
But since coming from Germany where 1 in like 200 cars where a SUV, Truck, or Van, I realize that people can easily live without their oversized autos. And for the next person to complain about the gas prices (granted our economy is struggling to adapt) we filled a car that was about the size of a Geo 2/3rds of the way and it cost use almost 60 euros...that's a conversion of 90 bucks to fill a Geo 2/3rds of the way...yeah....
kay, so just to put things in context, acording to the energy dude, mr. tertzakian, if EVERY new car and truck bought this year in the united states were a hybrid, then total energy use for the nation would only...GO UP slightly, instead of a lot.
which is to say we are fcuked anyway. the problem is bigger than hybrids, sadly...and all we got lately was some lame-ass ideas from the smuck of shmucks mr. bush.
kay, so just to put things in context, acording to the energy dude, mr. tertzakian, if EVERY new car and truck bought this year in the united states were a hybrid, then total energy use for the nation would only...GO UP slightly, instead of a lot.
which is to say we are fcuked anyway. the problem is bigger than hybrids, sadly...and all we got lately was some lame-ass ideas from the smuck of shmucks mr. bush. yeah that whole bio-fuel has been working out real well hasn't it?
the only way i found a hybrid to be worth it for me was to buy one used. i ended up with an insight - and it really was close to the same price as civics around that same year. well, and i looked for cars for 6 months before buying.
yeah yeah, it's a 2 seater - so not exactly efficient for people with a family. but within the 9 months that i've owned it so far, i've only had to borrow my sig. other's car twice to haul around more people.
slantsix has a point as well. my 95 honda civic gets 35 mpg easy - and you're not putting a strain on resources by buying a new car.
The flaw in your calculation is that gasoline prices are not going to stay at a constant. The higer that price goes up the closer the spread will become.
Also, I have a general distrust of the EPA miles per gallon figures. I drive a much larger Accord with the 2.3L engine and regularly see 25/35 mpg. Much depends on keeping the car in good mechanical condition. Some has to do with the tires I use and general driving style. But, generally speaking, I've always been able to beat the EPA window sticker figures no matter the car. And most importantly, on normal business days I only drive 5 miles. The best conservation is not driving.
I've taken a liking to the Clubman, seems to get similar mileage to ms. tk's Fit. Still not sure if I can swing a $20k car with the wee one on the way. the missus wants me to get a four door/equivalent so I can stow a baby seat in back- that eliminates getting a fourtwo or the insite. that leaves the civic as my best buy, since the a3 tdi won't make it across the pond.
slantsix has the answer... if you're really trying to save the earth, stop buying new cars, period. The energy expended in building your new car is greater than the energy it will use over the course of its lifetime (I'm trying to remember/find the source for this, will get back to you).
Good luck trying to get a hybrid repaired for cheap as well...a lot of indy mechanics don't want to touch them, which leaves you at the mercy of the "stealer", where their hourly labor rate is more than what I get billed out at.
If you live in a state that has approved the new low-sulfur diesel, go with one of those for a better mpg punch (although the new diesles from the likes of VW et al. cost a little more up front, but come with the long-term durability of a deisel engine: i.e. no need for tune ups, etc.)
Get a used European car (cause they are usually more mpg friendly with a manual transmission (= long term durability). I just bought an 8 yo Bimmer for less than 10 grand in great shape and I get better mpg than my Nissan. I consistently get 18-25 around town and >35 on the highway, you can't beat that.
From an energy/carbon footprint point of view, your better off getting a quality car that will last you twice as long as a newer one with slightly better mpg. Taking into account the energy used to actually produce the car, ship the car, etc.
One a similar note: just because the EPA state a certain MPG, doesn't mean that the car will deliver that MPG automatically.
One of most important factors are grade of gasoline: I know it costs more, but premium burns more efficiently (thus giving better MPG) because it is cleaner. And it keeps your engine & fuel system that way as well, keeping your car on the road longer.
Another is your style of driving. Give me a prius driven by a lead-foot on a race track and I will bet it gets poor MPG. How you drive has a great impact on gas mileage. Tire pressure as well plays a part...
i saw a Yukon (or another Gigantic 4 wheel drive suburban grocery getter) Hybrid the other day on Woodward Ave...i couldn't stop laughing...it must get a full 18mpg hwy compared to the 12mpg hwy of the non-hybrid model...
it's like eating diet-steak!
i drive one of those new civics...with my manual transmission, i average 29mpg. city, and about 37 hwy...
hybrid technology is being hijacked right nwo...the prius seems to be the only true hybrid out there...
A lot of this is just marketing hype from the car and oil companies. We're being spoonfed all this "save the planet" stuff right now, only it's coming from huge corporations, because they've realized that Green Sells.
If you really want to save the planet, figure out a way to walk, bike or take public transport. Flip off your light switches. Drive only smaller used cars. Buy bulk foods. Recycle where you can. Etc. Etc.
The best solutions to global climate change are low-tech, common sense solutions.
i bought a civic hybrid in '03 and it's been great. for reasons some have said above, not sure i'd buy ANY new car now, hybrid or not, but i did get to take advantage of the tax credit, mileage has been great, and i've never had any but the scheduled service.
a biodiesel is a better investment, same mileage and 0 polution (hydrocarbons and carbonmonixide) as well as you can get the fuel for free. just buy any old diesel car and run it on veg oil
i returned my lease vehicle in december and have barely driven since. fixing the crummy state of our environment will not be done by adding 5-10 mpg to your vehicle, a massive fundamental rethinking of our daily habits or a major technological breakthrough are going to be the only ways to effect meaningful change. otherwise, it's like slapping a band-aid on a gun shot wound.
like a quote i read the other day: buying a hybrid or changing your light bulbs means nothing if you don't have/w/o a vegetarian diet because the the amount of unsustainable energy that is put into factory farming
or something along those lines.
here is another about the most sustainable veg practice (think about our anthropological pre-fire history we were all raw foodists(and not raw meat because that is not digestible and dangerous to the human digestive system) permaculture?:
"Raw foodists maintain that only uncooked foods are fit to be eaten, that cooked food is the cause of virtually all disease and is always harmful to some extent. A cooked-food eater will, if he or she adopts a raw food diet, come to feel lighter, more energetic, and just happier about being alive."
Prehistoric man actually did eat raw meat, there are still people today who claim that raw meat is much better and healthier than cooked. Then there's those other people who eat rancid meat but they're a whole different kettle of eels.
I think meat is fine in moderation and when it's raised correctly, the typical north am cow is raised on a diet of corn, hormones and antibiotics, the cows digestive system is made to eat grass almost exclusively. Feeding a cow a diet of corn leads to deficiencies in their diet and sickness, hence the need for growth hormones and drugs.
Chickens are another example, they're carnivorous and their digestive system is designed to eat primarily insects NOT corn.
That's one reason why food tastes better in Europe, the cattle is grass fed and the chickens are mostly insect fed, if you've ever tried this sort of meat you'll never go back. Also properly raised chicken eggs have orange yolks not this yellow crap I keep seeing everywhere.
I have friends whom tried the raw food eating for a while, they determined that it didn't quite meet their nutritional needs. They're both vegetarian enviro hippies (although I think they're giving vegan a try) and one of them is studying plant horticulture and ethnobotany (he explains it to me but I'm still confused) anyway they spend a hell of a lot of time on this stuff.
My mission: To find good steaks (also known as partially decayed bovine carcass portions) and get them to try it, insert evil snigger here...... They're drinking bovine breast lactation products so the transition shouldn't be too bad.
grauster,
since when does premium burn more efficiently? higher octane only means greater resistance to pre-ignition, ie. you can use it in a higher compression engine than a lower octane rated fuel.
HA, brilliant responses, especially the crazy people.
First off, I'm not buying a new car because...well as I stated, I'm too poor! However, I'm starting to get a bit fed up with my lack of seats. You see, I currently drive a 93' Honda Del Sol. It runs great, but the larger width and length trunk with its low profile and 2 seats are a bit of a issue sometimes. Plus with it well over 180k miles, as well as it may run, it won't be like this forever.
So purchasing a newer, not necessarily new, car may someday be in my interest if I feel I really need to. However this won't happen till after I graduate this spring, after I get a job, and after I decide if the city I end up in requires that I purchase a new car. Frankly I'd rather live life with out the need for the car.
I'm curious, while all the bitching has been going on about how Hybrids are a joke, no one has talked about the Fit and financing. Forget your whining about new cars costing energy to build. Yes, we realize that, but it won't keep them from being made. Plus, if you're someone who buys a used car and then spend 7 years maintaining it to nearly 200k miles until it dies, then maybe you deserve a newer car. But the situation is the cost factor, and how upgrading to a Hybrid doesn't offset it over many other cars like the Fit. My point is the Hybrid is grossly overpriced at the moment, and yes, it really doesn't save all that much over a fuel efficient standard car.
OH, and don't get me started about biofuels. While they may be better, they are jacking up Corn prices and are already falling apart financially across this country.
there is no proof any people eat raw meat
there is proof it will kill you because of bacterias and that it must be rotted for weeks and that it takes a act of murder and that domestication is worse than slavery and torture
like a quote i read the other day: buying a hybrid or changing your light bulbs means nothing if you don't have/w/o a vegetarian diet because the the amount of unsustainable energy that is put into factory farming
I am sure you could find equivalent quotes saying all your other environmental actions are meaningless if you drive a car, fly on a plane, wear clothes made in a third world country, have a flush toilet in your house, etc. etc. etc.
I read that, in terms of energy consumption, hybrids are worse than 'regular' cars because of the amount of energy required to produce the actual engine.
Has anyone else heard this?
Seriously, I was about to buy a new car but then I realized that my own car-snobiness prevented me from making that decision. And had I actually succumb to that kind of snobiness I would have made the worse decision.
For example: It went from a Scion TC, to a Toyota Camry, to a Honda Accord Hybrid, to a Acura, to an Audi A-4 Quatro.
I thought NO WAY. I have college debts to pay off so I decided to get my old beat up Pathfinder fixed up for around $1000 and float on it for about another year-year-and-a-half.
every time i see a old diesel for sale at a good price i buy it and turn it over running Veggie Oil that i collect and filter for myself. It works out really well.
antisthenes,
"there is no proof any people eat raw meat"
What the heck do you call SUSHI then?
I can also round up a bunch of people I personally know whom eat their steaks raw and bloody, I cook the hell out of my meat but I'm just weird like that.
A really good steak has to be left out for weeks, the bacteria is there to break down the muscle fibers and make the steak tender. A fresh steak is actually really tough.
As for murdering an animal to eat it, we've been doing that for millenia, besides death and 'murder' for survival are prevalent in the animal kingdom too, it's the natural thing to do.
since we're on this topic, for the green geek and apathetic american, check out this tv show on human footprint (also posted to green tc- guilty as charged)...
the other hybrid car thread`` is here in case you missed it.
Super, I assume you were considering a used Civic hybrid, cause I think Honda stopped making those. I would say that hybrids are overpriced right now and don't get the mileage that they will in later versions: the trend will be toward less and less gas usage, as the gas engine will eventually turn into a one-speed battery charger that comes on only when needed and use minimal amounts of gas. People forget that hybrids are still in their infancy, and that they are really just morphing into electric cars.
For right now, yes, you can get close to the mileage of a Prius in some gas engine compacts for less price, but if you're arguing which is greener, don't forget that emissions also come into play: a hybrid's engine shuts off in stop and go traffic and at low speeds.
As to the argument that the most eco-friendly thing is to stop buying new cars: well, the most eco friendly thing is that we stop making new anything, but that ain't gonna happen. To buy a used car you need it to have been new at some point. If you stop that process, then you basically get what you have in Cuba, where the cars stopped being new in the 50s, and there's a whole cottage industry in duplicating no-longer-made parts to keep 50-60 year old behemoths running.
my mom has a donkey cart. way better. it has the full accommodations of a home, no petroleum(tires) and she doesn't use such little horse power. she has a mammoth donkey! the best thing about that is it feeds off the roadside and the worst thing is the horse is a domesticated slave.
you put yourself as risk eating uncooked meat. there is science behind this.
# Biodiesel is a renewable resource, it biodegrades quickly, and it's non-toxic.
# As biodiesel does not contain sulphur, it produces no sulphur dioxide pollution. It also produces fewer PAH's (polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbon), which are potent carcinogens.
# Biodiesel matches conventional diesel fuel in mileage and horsepower, and is far more efficient -- indeed, biodiesel has the highest energy return of any motor vehicle fuel.
it says that it costs more in the article but i pay 50 cents less and get it for free from a few restaurants
the more power thing is totally true, i have not lost a street race yet and have not lost a mile per hour going up some of the steepest of hills in the rockies. as well as getting 550 miles per 12 gallon tank
Ford Fusion Hybrid - $27,270
Beats out the Camry Hybrid as the most fuel efficient midsized sedan by about 6 mpg... Gets 41 mpg city, 36 mpg hwy, runs on fully electric for speeds up to 47 mph.
Are Hybrids really worth it now (for us eco-poor people anyways)
Ok, so I was curious this evening and did some "I wish I didn't have massive debt" shopping for new cars. I was mostly interested in hybrids since doing my tax returns recently I was reminded that if I purchases a hybrid, I could get a credit (which I further researched that once a model reached 60,000 sales, the rebate would be phased out over a year....so Prius and Civic HD are out). Well, the Prius style doesn't quite do it for me. And the Civic Hybrid is not nearly as sleek as their supped SI Coupe version (which certainly appeals to my desire but not my conscience). Plus, I want a hatchback so while I have a compact, I can haul those 2x4s when I need them. So here is what I found:
HONDA CIVIC GX 1.8L 4, auto [CNG] c CTY24 HWY36
TOYOTA PRIUS 1.5L 4, auto CVT CTY48 HWY45
--------
HONDA FIT 1.5L 4, manual CTY28 HWY34
Here are some factors I used from Honda's Savings Calculator I found that the Prius matches Honda's estimates, so we will just compare the Fit to the Civic Hybrid -but you Prius arguably is a few miles higher than the Civic, just a few-
Gas Price: $3.2/gal
Miles/day: 10 miles (This is just an average for me. I live about 1.5 miles from school, and I drive about 5-15 miles for shopping, and take a few trips to Chicago. For others, this will be more, but if I move to a big city, I'd rather take transit and use the car for trips and long distance shopping, I'll give an alternative)
10 miles/day: You save $419.87 after 5 years with the Civic over the Fit
50 miles/day: You save $2,099.35 after 5 years with the Civic over the Fit
100 miles/day: You save $4,198.69 after 5 years with the Civic over the Fit
Now what does a Civic Hybrid cost over a Fit?
Civic Hybrid's suggested retail price is: $22,600
Fit's suggested retail price is: $13,950
For a grand difference of $8,650.
So if you drive a little over 206 miles per DAY then you'll make up the costs in the Fit after 5 years....yeah...
Now, I'm comparing a compact hatchback to a compact sedan hybrid. But the price of the hybrid is certainly a bit too high and we are most certain it will lower. In fact, Honda has stated that by 2009 or 2010 a model (new or retrofit) will come out that is a new generation of hybrid that is much cheaper than the Civic. Also as note the Prius has a suggested retail price of 21,100.
This isn't to say, don't invest in hybrid technology, it's a good thing, and will save you money. If your going from a Ford Expedition to a Civic Hybrid, then you'll notice a difference.
But since coming from Germany where 1 in like 200 cars where a SUV, Truck, or Van, I realize that people can easily live without their oversized autos. And for the next person to complain about the gas prices (granted our economy is struggling to adapt) we filled a car that was about the size of a Geo 2/3rds of the way and it cost use almost 60 euros...that's a conversion of 90 bucks to fill a Geo 2/3rds of the way...yeah....
I wish i spell checked/gramar checked more, such as were instead of where
A Geo...it was about 5% bigger than this...
kay, so just to put things in context, acording to the energy dude, mr. tertzakian, if EVERY new car and truck bought this year in the united states were a hybrid, then total energy use for the nation would only...GO UP slightly, instead of a lot.
which is to say we are fcuked anyway. the problem is bigger than hybrids, sadly...and all we got lately was some lame-ass ideas from the smuck of shmucks mr. bush.
kay, so just to put things in context, acording to the energy dude, mr. tertzakian, if EVERY new car and truck bought this year in the united states were a hybrid, then total energy use for the nation would only...GO UP slightly, instead of a lot.
which is to say we are fcuked anyway. the problem is bigger than hybrids, sadly...and all we got lately was some lame-ass ideas from the smuck of shmucks mr. bush. yeah that whole bio-fuel has been working out real well hasn't it?
Easy. Buy a used car that's good on gas. Problem solved. You'll save money and energy.
Fuel efficiency for small cars hasn't improved in 15 years.
the only way i found a hybrid to be worth it for me was to buy one used. i ended up with an insight - and it really was close to the same price as civics around that same year. well, and i looked for cars for 6 months before buying.
yeah yeah, it's a 2 seater - so not exactly efficient for people with a family. but within the 9 months that i've owned it so far, i've only had to borrow my sig. other's car twice to haul around more people.
slantsix has a point as well. my 95 honda civic gets 35 mpg easy - and you're not putting a strain on resources by buying a new car.
The flaw in your calculation is that gasoline prices are not going to stay at a constant. The higer that price goes up the closer the spread will become.
Also, I have a general distrust of the EPA miles per gallon figures. I drive a much larger Accord with the 2.3L engine and regularly see 25/35 mpg. Much depends on keeping the car in good mechanical condition. Some has to do with the tires I use and general driving style. But, generally speaking, I've always been able to beat the EPA window sticker figures no matter the car. And most importantly, on normal business days I only drive 5 miles. The best conservation is not driving.
I've taken a liking to the Clubman, seems to get similar mileage to ms. tk's Fit. Still not sure if I can swing a $20k car with the wee one on the way. the missus wants me to get a four door/equivalent so I can stow a baby seat in back- that eliminates getting a fourtwo or the insite. that leaves the civic as my best buy, since the a3 tdi won't make it across the pond.
slantsix has the answer... if you're really trying to save the earth, stop buying new cars, period. The energy expended in building your new car is greater than the energy it will use over the course of its lifetime (I'm trying to remember/find the source for this, will get back to you).
Good luck trying to get a hybrid repaired for cheap as well...a lot of indy mechanics don't want to touch them, which leaves you at the mercy of the "stealer", where their hourly labor rate is more than what I get billed out at.
If you live in a state that has approved the new low-sulfur diesel, go with one of those for a better mpg punch (although the new diesles from the likes of VW et al. cost a little more up front, but come with the long-term durability of a deisel engine: i.e. no need for tune ups, etc.)
Get a used European car (cause they are usually more mpg friendly with a manual transmission (= long term durability). I just bought an 8 yo Bimmer for less than 10 grand in great shape and I get better mpg than my Nissan. I consistently get 18-25 around town and >35 on the highway, you can't beat that.
From an energy/carbon footprint point of view, your better off getting a quality car that will last you twice as long as a newer one with slightly better mpg. Taking into account the energy used to actually produce the car, ship the car, etc.
One a similar note: just because the EPA state a certain MPG, doesn't mean that the car will deliver that MPG automatically.
One of most important factors are grade of gasoline: I know it costs more, but premium burns more efficiently (thus giving better MPG) because it is cleaner. And it keeps your engine & fuel system that way as well, keeping your car on the road longer.
Another is your style of driving. Give me a prius driven by a lead-foot on a race track and I will bet it gets poor MPG. How you drive has a great impact on gas mileage. Tire pressure as well plays a part...
food for thought...
i saw a Yukon (or another Gigantic 4 wheel drive suburban grocery getter) Hybrid the other day on Woodward Ave...i couldn't stop laughing...it must get a full 18mpg hwy compared to the 12mpg hwy of the non-hybrid model...
it's like eating diet-steak!
i drive one of those new civics...with my manual transmission, i average 29mpg. city, and about 37 hwy...
hybrid technology is being hijacked right nwo...the prius seems to be the only true hybrid out there...
we just rent a car when we need one. the train is just fine most days.
we are still not particularly sustainable, but transportation costs are so low it is a joke.
A lot of this is just marketing hype from the car and oil companies. We're being spoonfed all this "save the planet" stuff right now, only it's coming from huge corporations, because they've realized that Green Sells.
If you really want to save the planet, figure out a way to walk, bike or take public transport. Flip off your light switches. Drive only smaller used cars. Buy bulk foods. Recycle where you can. Etc. Etc.
The best solutions to global climate change are low-tech, common sense solutions.
i bought a civic hybrid in '03 and it's been great. for reasons some have said above, not sure i'd buy ANY new car now, hybrid or not, but i did get to take advantage of the tax credit, mileage has been great, and i've never had any but the scheduled service.
maybe find an old crx?
hybrids still pollute
a biodiesel is a better investment, same mileage and 0 polution (hydrocarbons and carbonmonixide) as well as you can get the fuel for free. just buy any old diesel car and run it on veg oil
i returned my lease vehicle in december and have barely driven since. fixing the crummy state of our environment will not be done by adding 5-10 mpg to your vehicle, a massive fundamental rethinking of our daily habits or a major technological breakthrough are going to be the only ways to effect meaningful change. otherwise, it's like slapping a band-aid on a gun shot wound.
A lot of hybrids still just look lame (in my opinion).
hallelujah, jafidler.
i consider myself an environmentalist, but I hate the way companies are manipulating people's altruism to sell more products.
And how people will drive a Lexus SUV hybrid, just so at a party they can promote their "green" credentials. It's a kind of sickness.
like a quote i read the other day: buying a hybrid or changing your light bulbs means nothing if you don't have/w/o a vegetarian diet because the the amount of unsustainable energy that is put into factory farming
or something along those lines.
here is another about the most sustainable veg practice (think about our anthropological pre-fire history we were all raw foodists(and not raw meat because that is not digestible and dangerous to the human digestive system) permaculture?:
"Raw foodists maintain that only uncooked foods are fit to be eaten, that cooked food is the cause of virtually all disease and is always harmful to some extent. A cooked-food eater will, if he or she adopts a raw food diet, come to feel lighter, more energetic, and just happier about being alive."
Prehistoric man actually did eat raw meat, there are still people today who claim that raw meat is much better and healthier than cooked. Then there's those other people who eat rancid meat but they're a whole different kettle of eels.
I think meat is fine in moderation and when it's raised correctly, the typical north am cow is raised on a diet of corn, hormones and antibiotics, the cows digestive system is made to eat grass almost exclusively. Feeding a cow a diet of corn leads to deficiencies in their diet and sickness, hence the need for growth hormones and drugs.
Chickens are another example, they're carnivorous and their digestive system is designed to eat primarily insects NOT corn.
That's one reason why food tastes better in Europe, the cattle is grass fed and the chickens are mostly insect fed, if you've ever tried this sort of meat you'll never go back. Also properly raised chicken eggs have orange yolks not this yellow crap I keep seeing everywhere.
I have friends whom tried the raw food eating for a while, they determined that it didn't quite meet their nutritional needs. They're both vegetarian enviro hippies (although I think they're giving vegan a try) and one of them is studying plant horticulture and ethnobotany (he explains it to me but I'm still confused) anyway they spend a hell of a lot of time on this stuff.
My mission: To find good steaks (also known as partially decayed bovine carcass portions) and get them to try it, insert evil snigger here...... They're drinking bovine breast lactation products so the transition shouldn't be too bad.
grauster,
since when does premium burn more efficiently? higher octane only means greater resistance to pre-ignition, ie. you can use it in a higher compression engine than a lower octane rated fuel.
the amount of energy in the fuels is the same.
HA, brilliant responses, especially the crazy people.
First off, I'm not buying a new car because...well as I stated, I'm too poor! However, I'm starting to get a bit fed up with my lack of seats. You see, I currently drive a 93' Honda Del Sol. It runs great, but the larger width and length trunk with its low profile and 2 seats are a bit of a issue sometimes. Plus with it well over 180k miles, as well as it may run, it won't be like this forever.
So purchasing a newer, not necessarily new, car may someday be in my interest if I feel I really need to. However this won't happen till after I graduate this spring, after I get a job, and after I decide if the city I end up in requires that I purchase a new car. Frankly I'd rather live life with out the need for the car.
I'm curious, while all the bitching has been going on about how Hybrids are a joke, no one has talked about the Fit and financing. Forget your whining about new cars costing energy to build. Yes, we realize that, but it won't keep them from being made. Plus, if you're someone who buys a used car and then spend 7 years maintaining it to nearly 200k miles until it dies, then maybe you deserve a newer car. But the situation is the cost factor, and how upgrading to a Hybrid doesn't offset it over many other cars like the Fit. My point is the Hybrid is grossly overpriced at the moment, and yes, it really doesn't save all that much over a fuel efficient standard car.
OH, and don't get me started about biofuels. While they may be better, they are jacking up Corn prices and are already falling apart financially across this country.
i have known a few people who have had to change batteries on those about the value of the car the cost of that.
there is no proof any people eat raw meat
there is proof it will kill you because of bacterias and that it must be rotted for weeks and that it takes a act of murder and that domestication is worse than slavery and torture
I am sure you could find equivalent quotes saying all your other environmental actions are meaningless if you drive a car, fly on a plane, wear clothes made in a third world country, have a flush toilet in your house, etc. etc. etc.
I read that, in terms of energy consumption, hybrids are worse than 'regular' cars because of the amount of energy required to produce the actual engine.
Has anyone else heard this?
Seriously, I was about to buy a new car but then I realized that my own car-snobiness prevented me from making that decision. And had I actually succumb to that kind of snobiness I would have made the worse decision.
For example: It went from a Scion TC, to a Toyota Camry, to a Honda Accord Hybrid, to a Acura, to an Audi A-4 Quatro.
I thought NO WAY. I have college debts to pay off so I decided to get my old beat up Pathfinder fixed up for around $1000 and float on it for about another year-year-and-a-half.
Aaron, it is not true
every time i see a old diesel for sale at a good price i buy it and turn it over running Veggie Oil that i collect and filter for myself. It works out really well.
the hybrids are only a good option if you live in a city and do city driving (in which case you should be walking or taking public transportation)
antisthenes,
"there is no proof any people eat raw meat"
What the heck do you call SUSHI then?
I can also round up a bunch of people I personally know whom eat their steaks raw and bloody, I cook the hell out of my meat but I'm just weird like that.
A really good steak has to be left out for weeks, the bacteria is there to break down the muscle fibers and make the steak tender. A fresh steak is actually really tough.
As for murdering an animal to eat it, we've been doing that for millenia, besides death and 'murder' for survival are prevalent in the animal kingdom too, it's the natural thing to do.
I have a motorcycle that gets 50mpg and if I got obliterated by a SUV - hey, that's just one less person consuming the earth's resources, right?
since we're on this topic, for the green geek and apathetic american, check out this tv show on human footprint (also posted to green tc- guilty as charged)...
the other hybrid car thread`` is here in case you missed it.
the ultimate hybrid
I gotta get me one of those...
Super, I assume you were considering a used Civic hybrid, cause I think Honda stopped making those. I would say that hybrids are overpriced right now and don't get the mileage that they will in later versions: the trend will be toward less and less gas usage, as the gas engine will eventually turn into a one-speed battery charger that comes on only when needed and use minimal amounts of gas. People forget that hybrids are still in their infancy, and that they are really just morphing into electric cars.
For right now, yes, you can get close to the mileage of a Prius in some gas engine compacts for less price, but if you're arguing which is greener, don't forget that emissions also come into play: a hybrid's engine shuts off in stop and go traffic and at low speeds.
As to the argument that the most eco-friendly thing is to stop buying new cars: well, the most eco friendly thing is that we stop making new anything, but that ain't gonna happen. To buy a used car you need it to have been new at some point. If you stop that process, then you basically get what you have in Cuba, where the cars stopped being new in the 50s, and there's a whole cottage industry in duplicating no-longer-made parts to keep 50-60 year old behemoths running.
my mom has a donkey cart. way better. it has the full accommodations of a home, no petroleum(tires) and she doesn't use such little horse power. she has a mammoth donkey! the best thing about that is it feeds off the roadside and the worst thing is the horse is a domesticated slave.
you put yourself as risk eating uncooked meat. there is science behind this.
diesels go vegetarian... from a search on that National Geographic site
# Biodiesel is a renewable resource, it biodegrades quickly, and it's non-toxic.
# As biodiesel does not contain sulphur, it produces no sulphur dioxide pollution. It also produces fewer PAH's (polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbon), which are potent carcinogens.
# Biodiesel matches conventional diesel fuel in mileage and horsepower, and is far more efficient -- indeed, biodiesel has the highest energy return of any motor vehicle fuel.
it says that it costs more in the article but i pay 50 cents less and get it for free from a few restaurants
the more power thing is totally true, i have not lost a street race yet and have not lost a mile per hour going up some of the steepest of hills in the rockies. as well as getting 550 miles per 12 gallon tank
"you put yourself as risk eating uncooked meat. there is science behind this"
meh, sushi is still yummy though
subtle insertion of the comeback though, props
not consuming any source of Cholesterol in your body or your car's engine and they are guaranteed to work more efficiently ;)
Anyone see the pictures for the new Honda Insight? Looks like a good deal to me... They say 41 MPG and starting at $18500, believe it or not.
Personally, I'm saving up for a diesel motorcycle.
On sale in April:
Honda Insight Hybrid - $19,000
It will get fuel economy about the same as the Prius for under $20,000...
Ford Fusion Hybrid - $27,270
Beats out the Camry Hybrid as the most fuel efficient midsized sedan by about 6 mpg... Gets 41 mpg city, 36 mpg hwy, runs on fully electric for speeds up to 47 mph.
Also on the way:
Honda FCX Clarity Fuel Cell
Honda Fit Hybrid
Originally it wasn't coming to the States, but now they say it will...
Chevy Volt
Plug in Hybrid Electric on sale 2010...
Ford Fiesta Diesel in Europe...
Gets 65 mpg in Europe, but we'll see what happens in the States...
for a poorer person i think BioDiesel is the best option to get the same millage as a hybrid and have the option for almost all free fuel
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