Hello,
I'm not an architect but I've always been interested in architecture. Anyway, I'm in the middle of trying to do a little renovation work on my Manhattan apartment. It is a small one bedroom but it is a corner apartment with nice light from the East and South. It has windows in the bathroom, kitchen, and two windows in the bedroom. The building was built in 1985.
So, I've become captivated by John Pawson's minimalist work. I have decided to try to make my apartment as clean and simple as possible. No crown molding or pink stucco rococo, know what I mean?
I started by scraping down all of the popcorn ceiling texture. It is easy to do if you spray it with water first. After that, I painted the concrete slab with WeldCrete and applied layers of joint compound. It was torturous work and almost put me in the hospital. After weeks of work and six buckets of joint compound, the ceiling looks pretty good. I plan on priming it with PVA and painting it white. I now understand, in my bones, why they sprayed that popcorn crap up there in the first place. Time and money.
I also mudded corner tape where the walls meet the ceiling. It is difficult to get a perfect line but it is better than having a ragged look of drywall against concrete.
After that, I discovered the Z reveal molding from Fry Reglet. I would like to thank whoever mentioned it on this forum. It is going to be terrific, if I can ever pull it off. First, I sawed 3/4" from the bottom of all the walls. After that, I discovered the horrifying truth that the concrete slab was far from level. It was off by as much as 3/4" over 6 feet next to the wall! Now, I'm having to put some Ardex concrete patch in the low spots to try to level the slab. More work!
By the way, I'm having cork installed as a floor. I bought 9"x36" cork tiles from Globus cork. It will be glued to the concrete and will go under the Z reveal. The Z reveal will give a nice shadow line and hide the imperfections of where the cork meets the wall.
So, I'm still struggling with pulling off these minimalist details. It is interesting to me that simple details require the most work. It would have been a lot easier to slap up a bunch of crown molding and cove molding....
Now you know why you see more add-on details than minimal details. In general, it's very hard to do modern details and have them look good. We used a fry reglet reveal at the base of the walls in our office w/a cork floor. It's painted black and the floor is dark cork while the walls are white - a very nice effect. However, once we put all the furniture in you almost can't see it, so if you have a small apartment I'd think how much of it you'll even see before spending the time to do it. Anyways, we love the cork.
I'm glad you like the cork. I'm still a little worried about putting it in but I hope it turns out to be a nice surface to live on. I got rid of the cheap parquet tiles which squeaked with every step because they had started to come unglued from the concrete slab.
Yes, I now understand why people add details instead of taking them away. It is hard to come up with a few clean surfaces. It is like Pawson says, it is difficult to reduce a ceiling (or a wall) to a floating plane, without all of the ductwork, pipes, and electrical conduit running through it. I had to pull down all of the cable TV cable that was snaking all over a few of the walls. This Fry Reglet reveal gives you a little bit of space to hide a cable.
I'm still trying to figure out where Pawson puts the electrical switches and outlets and if there is any way that I could hide mine in a similar manner. Any ideas?
It has been a good exercise to strip this apartment in order to understand its construction. My wife was harboring the illusion that the walls were made up of one sheet of drywall. She didn't have any concept of steel studs and two sheets of drywall. It is amazing how many other people I meet who think that the concrete slabs are somehow held up by a few of those steel studs. Lots of laughs.
One option for the base is to use a 1x_ wood base installed flush to the gypsum board and then use the z-bead between the wood and sheetrock. This is not quite as clean as the reveal at the floor (which is nice because you can visibly separate the wall from the floor/ceiling) but it is practical and at least everything is still flush. This way you can put your convenience outlets horizontally in the center of the wood base, and you don't have to worry about a mop or vacuum taking a divot out of the gyp. bd. when accidentally hit. Also, you may be able to hide the imperfections in the conc. floor better with this detail.
Just a thought.
Also, if you want to hid the switches, four words (clap on. . .clap off).
I'm not sure I follow your post. Does this mean you put a wood strip on the floor and put the reveal above the wood strip? You would still have to get the wood strip flush with the concrete slab, in the same way I am trying to get the reveal flush with the edge of the slab. I don't see how it helps that much.
My outlets are already punched into the drywall so I'm not messing with that issue.
Also, I don't want to lose that reveal at the floor because it is the perfect place to run wires and TV cable.
My main problem is that the concrete slab is far out of level close to some of the outer walls in the apartment. Thankfully, it is level in the center of the room. I'm going to have to do the best I can to fix it. It is going to be impossible to relevel the whole slab.
This reminds me of an article I read in the Time a few weeks ago about sloppy American construction practices. Is it impossible to pour or truck in a level concrete slab? Why is it so far off? Is it ok for it to be off by 1" over 6 ft? I also discovered that one of my windows is not level by about 1/4" or so. Surprise, surprise, it leaks some on the low corner of the window, coming in and rusting the steel drywall studs....
How old is your building? Settling and movement occur over time, no matter where you are... though it happens more depending on soil conditions, etc., and of course the quality of construction and the methods used. The slab is probably uneven because it wasn't important for it to be flat when they built it. Unless of course it's a new building and was supposed to have exposed floors. Getting a slab level is actually fairly difficult. Not that the contractor shouldn't be able to do it, but it's not as easy as just pouring the concrete and it settles flat. Usually there is a lot of hand trowel work that is done as the concrete hardens, and if the timing isn't quite right, the guys doing it are not that skilled, or they expect to put carpet over it so no one cares if it's level... you get the picture. An 1" over 6 feet sounds a little scary, but depending on the thickness of the slab for the building maybe it's ok (structurally speaking).
I don't know much about hiding light switches, but I do know you want to make sure you have the switches where you will expect and need them, esp. to the latch side of doors on the inside of the room you are entering... for some reason when we re-did the electrical in our house we ended up with switches on the wrong side of the exterior doors (I think we installed new doors later and they were salvaged and had the hinges on the other side or something. Anyways, I still reach for the switch where it is "supposed" to be - 4 years later. Pretty annoying.
Just re-read your original post - my guess on the slab and window is they built the building fast (80s construction boom) and weren't being very precise, also probably the floor had carpet ...
Yes, you're probably right, they were building it fast. They put parquet tiles in all of the apartments, not carpet. They put down some kind of thin white foam and glued that to the slab, and glued the parquet tiles to the foam. I guess they shimmed it up in places or just let the floor tiles flex and squeak.
I agree with you that it is a lot of work to level a concrete slab. The slab is very thick (maybe 5-6") so I'm sure it isn't a problem from a structural point of view. I guess I shouldn't have expected a perfect slab but I was hoping for something a little better than what I got.
It's my fault for trying to use this molding. I'm going to have to slope the molding with the floor a little if I'm ever going to get the floor level with the bottom of the molding. Like I said, most of the apartment is fine, I just have two bad spots. ....
I'm giving up on trying to hide the switches or the outlets. It's too much work and I don't have the time. It will be enough for me to get the floor done and the walls painted...
Just to clarify, I would install the 1x_ wood trim vertically, nailed against the studs (bottom of wood trim tight to floor). Then I would have the 3/8" z-bead (metal, not plastic) reveal and then gypsum board. All flush. I would paint the wood base, reveal and wall all the same color so that in the end it looks basically like a single surface with a 3/8" reveal 5 to 10 inches above the floor (depending on the height of wood base you choose). I would run the cables behind the wood base.
The reason for the wood baseboard is twofold. One, as I wrote it is a practical matter. Gyp. Bd. is a soft material that dents easily. The wood baseboard will protect against vacuum's, kids toy trucks, etc. Two, you can scribe the bottom of wood trim to an irregular surface easier than trying to level the concrete. This is done all of the time. That way you can keep the top edge of the wood base and your z-bead reveal level while the bottom of your base is not. Granted, this may be more appropriate for a finish carpenter than a do-it-yourselfer, but thats my two cents anyway.
You have the cost of the reveal itself (can't find the receipt, but maybe $1/ft. for 1" reveal base), plus the added labor of mudding/finishing another edge on your drywall, and painting the reveal. If you are doing it yourself, it's extra work but not that much more money - if it's a job that a contractor will do it will cost a lot more, because it involves finish work that has to be done precisely, it's a non-standard detail, etc. My partners did the work on our office and apparently it's a pain in the ass. Looks good though.
Oh yeah, it's a pain in the ass, I can testify to that. It takes 3-4 coats of mud to cover the top part of the molding. The screw holes on the molding aren't countersunk. I suggest getting a countersink bit and countersinking the holes, otherwise the drywall screws stick out too far. I used fiberglass tape instead of paper drywall tape. It has a lower profile and doesn't expand when it gets wet.
I paid something like $1.40 a foot for the reveal molding. It's not cheap, but I didn't have to buy that much of it. Of course, it is another pain to cut it to fit corners, etc.
As for the wood baseboard idea, well, I want that recess so that my cork can slide under the wall. That way, any irregularities should be hidden. I also didn't want a reveal 5-10 inches from the floor. It is a small apartment and I think that would look strange. The aluminum molding seems very strong and I think it will hold up to the occasional collision with a vacuum cleaner.
I'm not sure I'm going to paint the aluminum part. It is only 3/4" from the floor and it is quite hard to see under it, especially after I get the cork installed.
I'm also done with my cement work to level out the parts of the floor that were too low.
I'm still trying to figure out the best primer to use on my joint compound over concrete skimcoated ceiling. Any ideas? I've thought about Zinsser Gardz.?
I found this paragraph in an article from the book "Practically Minimum"... Pretty funny...
"The search for simple elegance in interior design has been a
constant theme for many years. The Viennese architect Adolf Loos
stated in his manifesto of 1908 that "cultural evolution is
equivalent to the removal of ornament from all articles of daily
use". Modernist hero Le Corbusier was quick to confirm this view.
These aspirations were often socially motivated and of good intent,
but it is extraordinarily challenging for most of us to jettison
every last piece of decoration. In addition, the exacting details of
minimalist designs become very expensive. For example, you cannot simply hide that awkward junction between plastered wall and
floorboards with a simple piece of skirting board. Instead, you have
to find and afford an expert plasterer and an extremely skilled
carpenter to make sure this junction is perfectly executed. The
extra time of the skilled craftsperson has to be added to the
additional costs of the finest materials. "
Now, my wife thinks I'm an expert plasterer and a extremely skilled carpenter.... ;-)
my sources tell me it doesn't matter what kind of primer you use for the ceiling... if you are using a special paint you could ask the paint store for a recommendation. we thought about not painting the base as well, but i think it looks better black in the end. we ended up getting quite a bit of white paint on the reveal while painting (don't ask me how), so it was easier to let it dry and paint over it than try and wipe it off while wet. we have a dark brown cork floor, so it's a nice shadow line. we also have black desks, shelves etc. and the doors and windows on the exterior are black, so it's a theme...
A scribe is there to take up dimensional variation.
A reveal is there to take up dimensional variation.
Doing both might as well as well be pink rococo (cool word, that - rococo)
Just get the job done on time and on budget and it is "Zen" enough to please this fine American. OUT!
sounds like a great job. A note about the light switches (although you won't be adjusting yours) I've been curious too. I've seen them (from photographs) placed next to doors, under counters, or in drawers/closets. That is generally places that most Int'l codes wouldn't permit
Hello All,
How funny to see this thread appended to after five years. Wow. I didn't remember everything I wrote here. It was fun to go back and reread all of the comments.
Well, I recently sold the apartment so somebody else gets to live with the minimalist details. I have to say that my plaster (joint compound) ceiling did not crack anywhere in the past five years. Amazing. The cork was a nice surface to live on, quiet and comfortable.
diyer, if I am not mistaken, all of your reveals are part way up the wall, above the baseboard. My project was putting in recessed aluminum moldings at the bottom of the walls, flush (?) with the concrete slab. Read my tale of woe, above. Never do this. You have been warned. There are no perfect planes on earth, certainly no perfect walls meeting perfect floors, at least not in any construction that I can afford.
Thanks to everybody for the help and encouragement. I might be able to show some pictures. I think the apartment came out ok, given the amount of work I put into it.
We're off to new adventures now. We are looking into prewar apartments. I love those solid plaster and lathe walls. Somebody told me a story of a football player who used to punch holes in drywall. The guy moved into an old apartment and punched the plaster and lathe wall, breaking his hand. Now, that's what I call a wall. A wall should hurt you when you hit it.
This sounds like a very fun job. I'm impressed that you're taking it on yourself. Does this mean you're doing it all yourself?
Regarding the outlets, have you looked into Bocci 22? They are beautiful receptacles, but again, you need to have a skilled plasterer install them. Are you doing the electrical work yourself? Or do you have a licensed electrician?
You should consider using the Lutron Vareo series for the light switches. Even Pawson can't avoid electrical code, but there are tricks he uses to hide the location of receptacles which I can't really describe here. It's all integral to his designs. Have you considered floor outlets, placed under a removable floor plate that matches the rest of the floor finish?
FYI...3/4" reveal at the floor will be easily visible, especially from the opposite side of the room. You should really aim to have no more than a 3/16" reveal if at all possible...or plan to paint the reveal if it stays at 3/4".
Ideally you run all the wires in the wall, not in the base reveal. But, I assume you're avoiding opening up the wall to save money, right?
Hello FP,
Yes, I did all of the work myself, the ceilings and the recessed moldings, etc. I did not skim coat the concrete slab and install the cork floor. I plastered the whole ceiling myself, while walking around on drywall stilts. I can't imagine how those old plasterers worked over their heads, day after day. I could barely lift my arm when I finished that job.
You are right, a 3/4" reveal is visible from across the room. Oh well. Perhaps I should have installed 3/16". Are you serious though, 3/16"??? The slab leveling issues never go away, regardless of the height, so I have to question my own sanity in installing these recessed moldings.
Thanks for the link to the Bocci 22. I have now fallen in love with a wall socket. ;-) Is it possible to drill two perfect holes in a piece of sheetrock? How do you get those perfect holes?
I didn't change around any electrical, just tried to come up with some switches and sockets that were less ugly. I think I installed something similar to the Lutron Vareo line, I don't remember now.
I don't believe I could have installed a removable floorplate over the existing concrete slab. This was not new construction, I had to work with what I was given and did not have a lot of money. I also had to try to preserve my marriage. ;-)
Pawson is Pawson. I have read about the lengths he goes to in order to pull off his designs. For instance, there are those Douglas fir planks that stretch unbroken from the front to the back of his house, planks so big they had to shut down roads to truck them in. Also, he installed a huge piece of marble that serves as a counter, from the kitchen, all the way out the back of the house. I understand the level of purity involved in Pawson's designs and I am in awe of them.
I almost got to see one of these apartments but the real estate agent never got back to me. Unfortunately, I don't have enough cash to buy one of these apartments.
3/16" is the reveal the local minimalist guru uses as well.
the bocci 22 has had legal problems, have they not? and at 10-16 dollars an outlet, it's not cheap.
sure is damn sexy, though...
there is a recessed plate w/ lips for the socket. you just mud to the lip.
larryk...yes, money is always an issue...And, as you well know, minimalism is generally more expensive to achieve because you can't cover up your mistakes with filler pieces, moulding, or other devices. Good luck on the apartment. Post pictures when you're done! I'd love to see how it comes out.
Holz...I haven't heard anything about legal problems with the Bocci 22. It meets electrical code and is UL listed. I can't find anything disparaging online either. What have you heard?
Larry k -- I never saw this thread when it had its original run, which is a shame as it is clearly and intelligently written! I applaud you for putting the effort into what you wanted and for seeing it through to the finish, despite how difficult it was. I wanted to let you know that I am bookmarking this thread and will be sharing it with clients in the future. We often have clients who have their hearts set on minimalist detailing, which is fantastic of course as it is gorgeous and calming, but sometimes it is hard to explain why "less" should "cost more". This is a great explanation of how difficult it is to get minimalist detailing done right, and a good argument for hiring a skilled contractor rather than the low-bidder who is used to covering up his mistakes with stock crown moulding and baseboard shoes from the local Home Depot (for example).
As a side note -- those plaster walls you are looking for now -- beware that the knuckle-busting stories are indeed true! Metal lath and thick plaster is incredibly durable stuff -- meaning that you will have a hard time even driving nails to hang pictures. You should just know that in advance -- it is much harder to make changes in plaster / lath walls than it is in drywall (for example, install or move a receptacle, etc). Just don't harbor any dreams of installing reveal mouldings in THIS stuff!
Lastly -- for my own curiosity -- were you able to notice any difference in your ability to sell your apt given its detailing? Did the modern renovation seem to help the price-point at all? I'm always curious about the market value of these things.
Hello Mantaray,
Thanks for your kind words. I am glad my humble experience can help educate people on why subtracting design elements often leads to a more expensive job. When you only have a few elements, those elements have to be perfect, there is no place to hide imperfections.
I was not altogether happy with the quality of the floor installation. Cork is one of those materials that requires a perfect substrate, as it shows all imperfections. I think the concrete skim coat was well done, but not perfect. I was amazed at the skill of the guy who did the troweling but I think the floor installation was a little rushed.
Of course, this being New York, the contractors have to finish as quickly as possible in order to move on to the next job. Even when you pay a lot sometimes is seems like you don't get a lot. Perhaps I should have done the floor installation myself but I was tired.
You are right about the permanent nature of plaster walls. That is their strength and their downfall. I was reminded of this last weekend when I looked at an apartment that was in need of renovation. There was Wiremold everywhere, sticking out of holes drilled through the plaster, in the most horrible way imaginable. I couldn't live with what had been done and I couldn't imagine paying to get it fixed.
As for gaining some advantage in the marketplace, I have to say that I don't think I realized a higher price because of the minimalist details. Of course, we sold in a difficult market, in a building that has high maintenance charges. One apartment cannot escape the market conditions of the building it is in, not matter what you do with the moldings.
I think buyers don't see minimalist details. After all, these kind of details are attractive because of what is not there. People think of what is there, they do not think in terms of what COULD be there in place of what IS there. ;-) Nobody says, "Wow, how awful this room would look if you had put up huge cove moldings."
As someone pointed out early in this thread, furniture covers up all of those recessed moldings. Perhaps I should have sold the apartment empty but I could not afford to carry two places. The apartment would have looked better with just three pieces of perfect furniture but I own too much stuff.
I enjoyed living with the results of my work. It was soothing to look up at a smooth ceiling, instead of being disturbed by the uneven texture of a dirty popcorn ceiling, a ceiling that could not be repainted without parts of it falling down in your face. How do I put a price on being able to get up at night and walk to the bathroom without all of that squeaking from the cheap parquet tiles? I enjoyed painting my walls, as they were a breeze with the recessed moldings, no trim work to paint with a brush and you could paint all the way to the floor with a roller.
I dug up this interesting article on the differences in craftsmanship between American, European, and Asian contracting companies. It does take a skilled contractor to pull off minimalist details and a lot of companies do not want to tackle those jobs because they are afraid of losing their shirts:
Wow - great thread. I think we need to start a "minimum du jour" thread for images only. The first image should be the Bocci 22 receptacle that FP posted, then a Lutron light switch, then some eye-candy reveals.
Very interesting update, Larry! It's so great to hear feedback from what it means to live in a place after it's been renovated. I've conducted my own personal user-surveys sometimes for years after a project, but I have yet to work for a firm that incorporates such a thing as standard practice. (It's part of my dream for my own firm some day...) It's always fascinating to hear about what worked and what didn't, and how you learned from the experience.
As a side note, I used to work for a firm that made a practice of encouraging clients to read "Mr. Blandings Builds His Dreamhouse" before starting large house projects. You should give it a shot -- after all you've been through, you'll probably truly appreciate it!
The quarter-round shoe that is the final step in traditional trim solves the problem of fitting baseboard to an irregular floor -- because the slender molding accommodates waves in the surface without any scribing. And those parquet squares needed a far less perfect slab surface, in terms of both major and minor irregularities, that does a thin veneer like VCT, linoleum, or cork. It's no accident that finishes like the flooring squares are so popular with a certain class of builders !
"I think buyers don't see minimalist details. After all, these kind of details are attractive because of what is not there." How true. Perfection is really just the absence of distracting faults and flaws, and this goes for the attractions of modernism, as you imply.
I have spoken idly with cabinetmaking colleagues about visiting past jobs to see how the work is performing -- but I have never witnessed any kind of formal program, anywhere I've worked, to make this happen It would certainly bear fruit, wouldn't it.
Yes, SDR, that is what the shoe is commonly used for, but it isn't necessary -- running the baseboard long and installing it before the flooring is installed allows you to a) skip the shoe and b) refinish the floors for years without having to rip out your shoe first and without an edge against the baseboard. This of course requires a good flooring sub. Alternatively you can scribe the baseboard to the floor, which I've also seen done. If you look through pictures of "olden days" houses you will often see floors and baseboards with no shoe. I was shown the techniques by a new england craftsman... it's amazing what kind of quality construction techniques live on in that part of the country. My opinion is that's it's simply a common acceptance of poor craft that allows shoes to flourish so freely... Honestly I don't really mind them against wood baseboards on wood floors (I can understand how much they simplify construction) but against (gasp) the toekick of poorly installed cabinetry, or at tile floors, it just BURNS me up. Especially since you so often see WHITE stock pre-painted shoes against OAK cabinetry! Nobody should have a shoe running along the bottom of their cabinetry toekick, least of all a mismatching one. Ugh.
Yes, it's just "the tail-light guarantee" and see ya later, I guess. Of course there's a call-back for short-term troubles, but after a while it seems that minor (cosmetic) failures are taken for granted or not noticed.
I can't say I've seen wood flooring laid up to a baseboard -- but I haven't seen everything by a long shot. And I know what you mean about inappropriate shoe application -- I'm happy to say that I've seldom seen the kinds of abuses you mention, just often enough to know it happens. Aak.
There's a NorCal architect who shall remain nameless, who is fond (unless he's gotten beyond it) of specifying large and tall banks of cabinetry to be set flush within a sheetrocked opening, with nothing but the door reveals separating the colorful stained plywood cabinet fronts (e.e., doors) from the white-painted rock, all in the same plane. Does he really think sheetrock -- hell, framing -- is done to that standard ? If the builder and the cabinetmaker can get together before framing commences, and the one can convince the other to select really straight sticks around those openings, then there's a prayer that it might go well. . .but is that even the protocol ?
Hello,
I am enjoying this discussion, thanks for all your comments.
Yes, Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House is one of my favorite films. The thing that amuses me the most about the film is that the apartment he moves out of, because it is too small, is a dream apartment for us. We cannot afford that apartment. How standards have changed over time.
You have to struggle with failure when building in the physical world, there is no way to escape it and the mistakes are hard to correct. I used to work in a cabinetmaking shop. One of our favorite sayings was "You don't want to offend God with too much perfection." No problem there. Our other favorite saying was that we spent half of our time making mistakes and the other half of the time correcting the mistakes.
I remember my wife yelling "You don't know how to finish this!!!", in the middle of this renovation. Well, yeah, she was right, I was in deep with trying to level out parts of the slab, put in all that molding and finish the plaster job on the ceiling, all by myself. I wish we had had somebody film our renovation, it would have made an interesting short film. ;-)
I remember all of that shoe molding, I ripped it out. It was depressing to see nails sticking out of it all over the place, pieces of it coming off of the wall, just an ugly mess. Yeah, I know why it is used, I am sure it could have been installed better.
As for getting feedback from the users of a space, I think that is something that is ignored. The users and maintenance guys can teach architects a lot about what works and what does not but their contributions are left out of the process.
The issue of acceptable tolerances within the different trades is an interesting topic. The guy who ran my cabinetmaking shop told me that he was working on a construction site once and was doing the surveying. He was trying to get the slab level within a 1/4" of an inch over 30 feet, or something like that. He noticed that everybody had stopped working and was looking at him. He said, "How close do you get it?" and they said, "Ah, within an inch or so is fine."
So, for better or worse, here are some pictures of the finished apartment, from our FSBO ad:
An interesting read, Larry. Sorry you had to endure a major hiccup in the economy to accompany your sale. The observations of various posters are interesting -- hilarious at times: Bathroom curtains for privacy ?? Heh heh.
It's a pleasure to be in the company of someone who's trying to "do it better," and succeeding. . .
Your table and chairs are evidence of some serious woodworking skills. I hope you get back to a shop sooner or later. And I'm sorry you ever had to endure a work environment where the prevailing ethic was "eh -- who'll notice ?"
Still, my first job at a good shop left me with this: "Why is there never time to do it right, and always time to do it over ?"
The guy who ran my shop was incredibly talented. He designed and executed pieces that were beyond my skills. He was a perfectionist. He had a degree in Architecture to boot. Unfortunately, after 16 years of struggling in the cabinetmaking field, gaining some success but not a lot of money, he decided to give up the shop. The other guy, there were three of us, forced me out so he could hire more workers. So it goes.
The trouble is that when you do work at a fixed price and things go wrong or take longer than you expected, you eat the time and the cost to do it over and your wage starts dropping dramatically. It is a tough business. The professional guys convinced me not to get into the field. I spent a couple of years trying to build up some woodworking skills and made some progress but I know that I have a long way to go and no way to get there.
Plus, working in a shop is dangerous, no question about it. I was serious about safety and I never got hurt but bad things happen to the most careful people.
So, to answer your question, you hope to save a little time by taking a short cut, you never think about the time to do it over. ;-) Even with the most careful preparation, you make mistakes and you have to figure out how to recover from those mistakes.
The shop owner told me a story about how the other guy in the shop was routing on a mahogany headboard when the router got away from him and carved a nice S curve in the middle of the headboard. The guy didn't scream, swear, or throw the router. He calmly turned the router off, put it on his bench, stood back and silently contemplated the ruined headboard. After a couple of minutes, the guy grabbed a piece of ebony and some chisels and started inlaying the groove. When he got done, you would have sworn that the ebony curve was put in the piece intentionally.
Wright, in his early work, and Schindler, later, sometimes used a shoe molding milled at 45 degrees -- to make housekeeping easier, I surmise; dirt and dust would be more easily swept away than with other shapes at the base of the wall. Irving Gill created a cove at the base of walls in his houses, if I am not mistaken, for the same purpose.
Thanks Orhan, nice write up and beautiful pictures. Wow. Crisp and clean. Is that a 3/16" reveal? ;-) I wish I could see it shot from the side. Was that done throughout the whole house?
Seeing all of that sun and sky makes me even more depressed about looking at yet another New York apartment where I get the shaft, the air shaft. Two different things though.
I guess budget numbers are confidential but I know that that renovation was not done on the cheap. What would a beach bungalow in Malibu sell for?
in mies's lafayette park, he used a curved 3" base molding (no shoe molding). it's very simple, elegant, and practical, but not fussy. i think the new generation of minimalists (pawson, adjaye, etc.) often tend to take things too far; i have a strong suspicion that those details do not hold up well over time and cost a fortune to get just right. there's a real art to figuring out what details are critical and what details to let go. it takes an awful lot of experience to figure out which are which.
of course lafayette park was a developer driven project. would mies have done the same thing at farnsworth? i can't say.
I also agree about the extreme minimalism practiced today. I think minimalism is great to the point that it eliminates unnecessary flourishes and simplifies things, especially when it can still employ reasonably standard elements. The thing with Pawson and others is that it's hyper-minimal, that not only have extremities been removed, but even the subtle touches and details that aren't noticed right away, and especially the way a building evolves and ages over time. These projects are more reductionism than minimalism: they have reduced the project to being visually digestible in an instant and do not account for how a building will change, whether the aging of materials or the infiltration of fingerprints and niceties of life in the space after the sleek photo is taken.
To be frank, I don't see much in the Pawson images presented that would directly conflict with that list of desirables. That is, just because you strip away every unnecessary molding and trim, use the nicest materials you can find, and make a tour-de-force of the use monolithic material, doesn't mean (to me) that a pristine and unchanging environment is the only acceptable result. The very lack of joints and seams resulting might be seen as a subtlety that one would not see immediately, and the materials Pawson uses are ones that age nicely, however they are detailed. . .no ?
On the other hand, the notorious lack of prudent detailing in the work of some early modernists, not excluding Corbu and Wright, led to ugly weathering effects, etc. If that's what you refer to, right on. Do we have a dividing line between exterior and interior work, maybe ? Or is good detailing, appropriate to the locations and conditions of use, always going to separate the men from the boys -- as it were ?
Minimalist Details/Maximum work
Hello,
I'm not an architect but I've always been interested in architecture. Anyway, I'm in the middle of trying to do a little renovation work on my Manhattan apartment. It is a small one bedroom but it is a corner apartment with nice light from the East and South. It has windows in the bathroom, kitchen, and two windows in the bedroom. The building was built in 1985.
So, I've become captivated by John Pawson's minimalist work. I have decided to try to make my apartment as clean and simple as possible. No crown molding or pink stucco rococo, know what I mean?
I started by scraping down all of the popcorn ceiling texture. It is easy to do if you spray it with water first. After that, I painted the concrete slab with WeldCrete and applied layers of joint compound. It was torturous work and almost put me in the hospital. After weeks of work and six buckets of joint compound, the ceiling looks pretty good. I plan on priming it with PVA and painting it white. I now understand, in my bones, why they sprayed that popcorn crap up there in the first place. Time and money.
I also mudded corner tape where the walls meet the ceiling. It is difficult to get a perfect line but it is better than having a ragged look of drywall against concrete.
After that, I discovered the Z reveal molding from Fry Reglet. I would like to thank whoever mentioned it on this forum. It is going to be terrific, if I can ever pull it off. First, I sawed 3/4" from the bottom of all the walls. After that, I discovered the horrifying truth that the concrete slab was far from level. It was off by as much as 3/4" over 6 feet next to the wall! Now, I'm having to put some Ardex concrete patch in the low spots to try to level the slab. More work!
By the way, I'm having cork installed as a floor. I bought 9"x36" cork tiles from Globus cork. It will be glued to the concrete and will go under the Z reveal. The Z reveal will give a nice shadow line and hide the imperfections of where the cork meets the wall.
So, I'm still struggling with pulling off these minimalist details. It is interesting to me that simple details require the most work. It would have been a lot easier to slap up a bunch of crown molding and cove molding....
Any thoughts on my struggle?
Regards,
Larry
Now you know why you see more add-on details than minimal details. In general, it's very hard to do modern details and have them look good. We used a fry reglet reveal at the base of the walls in our office w/a cork floor. It's painted black and the floor is dark cork while the walls are white - a very nice effect. However, once we put all the furniture in you almost can't see it, so if you have a small apartment I'd think how much of it you'll even see before spending the time to do it. Anyways, we love the cork.
I'm glad you like the cork. I'm still a little worried about putting it in but I hope it turns out to be a nice surface to live on. I got rid of the cheap parquet tiles which squeaked with every step because they had started to come unglued from the concrete slab.
Yes, I now understand why people add details instead of taking them away. It is hard to come up with a few clean surfaces. It is like Pawson says, it is difficult to reduce a ceiling (or a wall) to a floating plane, without all of the ductwork, pipes, and electrical conduit running through it. I had to pull down all of the cable TV cable that was snaking all over a few of the walls. This Fry Reglet reveal gives you a little bit of space to hide a cable.
I'm still trying to figure out where Pawson puts the electrical switches and outlets and if there is any way that I could hide mine in a similar manner. Any ideas?
It has been a good exercise to strip this apartment in order to understand its construction. My wife was harboring the illusion that the walls were made up of one sheet of drywall. She didn't have any concept of steel studs and two sheets of drywall. It is amazing how many other people I meet who think that the concrete slabs are somehow held up by a few of those steel studs. Lots of laughs.
Larry
One option for the base is to use a 1x_ wood base installed flush to the gypsum board and then use the z-bead between the wood and sheetrock. This is not quite as clean as the reveal at the floor (which is nice because you can visibly separate the wall from the floor/ceiling) but it is practical and at least everything is still flush. This way you can put your convenience outlets horizontally in the center of the wood base, and you don't have to worry about a mop or vacuum taking a divot out of the gyp. bd. when accidentally hit. Also, you may be able to hide the imperfections in the conc. floor better with this detail.
Just a thought.
Also, if you want to hid the switches, four words (clap on. . .clap off).
I'm not sure I follow your post. Does this mean you put a wood strip on the floor and put the reveal above the wood strip? You would still have to get the wood strip flush with the concrete slab, in the same way I am trying to get the reveal flush with the edge of the slab. I don't see how it helps that much.
My outlets are already punched into the drywall so I'm not messing with that issue.
Also, I don't want to lose that reveal at the floor because it is the perfect place to run wires and TV cable.
My main problem is that the concrete slab is far out of level close to some of the outer walls in the apartment. Thankfully, it is level in the center of the room. I'm going to have to do the best I can to fix it. It is going to be impossible to relevel the whole slab.
This reminds me of an article I read in the Time a few weeks ago about sloppy American construction practices. Is it impossible to pour or truck in a level concrete slab? Why is it so far off? Is it ok for it to be off by 1" over 6 ft? I also discovered that one of my windows is not level by about 1/4" or so. Surprise, surprise, it leaks some on the low corner of the window, coming in and rusting the steel drywall studs....
Sigh...
Larry
How old is your building? Settling and movement occur over time, no matter where you are... though it happens more depending on soil conditions, etc., and of course the quality of construction and the methods used. The slab is probably uneven because it wasn't important for it to be flat when they built it. Unless of course it's a new building and was supposed to have exposed floors. Getting a slab level is actually fairly difficult. Not that the contractor shouldn't be able to do it, but it's not as easy as just pouring the concrete and it settles flat. Usually there is a lot of hand trowel work that is done as the concrete hardens, and if the timing isn't quite right, the guys doing it are not that skilled, or they expect to put carpet over it so no one cares if it's level... you get the picture. An 1" over 6 feet sounds a little scary, but depending on the thickness of the slab for the building maybe it's ok (structurally speaking).
I don't know much about hiding light switches, but I do know you want to make sure you have the switches where you will expect and need them, esp. to the latch side of doors on the inside of the room you are entering... for some reason when we re-did the electrical in our house we ended up with switches on the wrong side of the exterior doors (I think we installed new doors later and they were salvaged and had the hinges on the other side or something. Anyways, I still reach for the switch where it is "supposed" to be - 4 years later. Pretty annoying.
Just re-read your original post - my guess on the slab and window is they built the building fast (80s construction boom) and weren't being very precise, also probably the floor had carpet ...
Yes, you're probably right, they were building it fast. They put parquet tiles in all of the apartments, not carpet. They put down some kind of thin white foam and glued that to the slab, and glued the parquet tiles to the foam. I guess they shimmed it up in places or just let the floor tiles flex and squeak.
I agree with you that it is a lot of work to level a concrete slab. The slab is very thick (maybe 5-6") so I'm sure it isn't a problem from a structural point of view. I guess I shouldn't have expected a perfect slab but I was hoping for something a little better than what I got.
It's my fault for trying to use this molding. I'm going to have to slope the molding with the floor a little if I'm ever going to get the floor level with the bottom of the molding. Like I said, most of the apartment is fine, I just have two bad spots. ....
I'm giving up on trying to hide the switches or the outlets. It's too much work and I don't have the time. It will be enough for me to get the floor done and the walls painted...
Regards,
Larry
Larry, per my post. . .
Just to clarify, I would install the 1x_ wood trim vertically, nailed against the studs (bottom of wood trim tight to floor). Then I would have the 3/8" z-bead (metal, not plastic) reveal and then gypsum board. All flush. I would paint the wood base, reveal and wall all the same color so that in the end it looks basically like a single surface with a 3/8" reveal 5 to 10 inches above the floor (depending on the height of wood base you choose). I would run the cables behind the wood base.
The reason for the wood baseboard is twofold. One, as I wrote it is a practical matter. Gyp. Bd. is a soft material that dents easily. The wood baseboard will protect against vacuum's, kids toy trucks, etc. Two, you can scribe the bottom of wood trim to an irregular surface easier than trying to level the concrete. This is done all of the time. That way you can keep the top edge of the wood base and your z-bead reveal level while the bottom of your base is not. Granted, this may be more appropriate for a finish carpenter than a do-it-yourselfer, but thats my two cents anyway.
Good Luck.
R.A. Rudolph,
I want to do the same base detail- how does the cost compare?
You have the cost of the reveal itself (can't find the receipt, but maybe $1/ft. for 1" reveal base), plus the added labor of mudding/finishing another edge on your drywall, and painting the reveal. If you are doing it yourself, it's extra work but not that much more money - if it's a job that a contractor will do it will cost a lot more, because it involves finish work that has to be done precisely, it's a non-standard detail, etc. My partners did the work on our office and apparently it's a pain in the ass. Looks good though.
Oh yeah, it's a pain in the ass, I can testify to that. It takes 3-4 coats of mud to cover the top part of the molding. The screw holes on the molding aren't countersunk. I suggest getting a countersink bit and countersinking the holes, otherwise the drywall screws stick out too far. I used fiberglass tape instead of paper drywall tape. It has a lower profile and doesn't expand when it gets wet.
I paid something like $1.40 a foot for the reveal molding. It's not cheap, but I didn't have to buy that much of it. Of course, it is another pain to cut it to fit corners, etc.
As for the wood baseboard idea, well, I want that recess so that my cork can slide under the wall. That way, any irregularities should be hidden. I also didn't want a reveal 5-10 inches from the floor. It is a small apartment and I think that would look strange. The aluminum molding seems very strong and I think it will hold up to the occasional collision with a vacuum cleaner.
I'm not sure I'm going to paint the aluminum part. It is only 3/4" from the floor and it is quite hard to see under it, especially after I get the cork installed.
I'm also done with my cement work to level out the parts of the floor that were too low.
I'm still trying to figure out the best primer to use on my joint compound over concrete skimcoated ceiling. Any ideas? I've thought about Zinsser Gardz.?
I found this paragraph in an article from the book "Practically Minimum"... Pretty funny...
"The search for simple elegance in interior design has been a
constant theme for many years. The Viennese architect Adolf Loos
stated in his manifesto of 1908 that "cultural evolution is
equivalent to the removal of ornament from all articles of daily
use". Modernist hero Le Corbusier was quick to confirm this view.
These aspirations were often socially motivated and of good intent,
but it is extraordinarily challenging for most of us to jettison
every last piece of decoration. In addition, the exacting details of
minimalist designs become very expensive. For example, you cannot simply hide that awkward junction between plastered wall and
floorboards with a simple piece of skirting board. Instead, you have
to find and afford an expert plasterer and an extremely skilled
carpenter to make sure this junction is perfectly executed. The
extra time of the skilled craftsperson has to be added to the
additional costs of the finest materials. "
Now, my wife thinks I'm an expert plasterer and a extremely skilled carpenter.... ;-)
Larry
You stupid do both - redundant - might as well pink rococo while at it. two options make sense to my way thinking:
1. j-bead - don't ram vacuum.
2. zen base - serves purpose, don't sweat - you still hip n' cool.
Me stupid? You stupid! Do both what? Make more sense.
J Bead ugly, Z reveal beautiful.
What is zen base?
my sources tell me it doesn't matter what kind of primer you use for the ceiling... if you are using a special paint you could ask the paint store for a recommendation. we thought about not painting the base as well, but i think it looks better black in the end. we ended up getting quite a bit of white paint on the reveal while painting (don't ask me how), so it was easier to let it dry and paint over it than try and wipe it off while wet. we have a dark brown cork floor, so it's a nice shadow line. we also have black desks, shelves etc. and the doors and windows on the exterior are black, so it's a theme...
also, no need for tape at the bottom seam, just mud to the edge. one coat mud and 2-3 coats topping compound.
push real hard on the screws into the studs at 16"0.c., they'll make wierd dents in the reveal but you don't even notice once it's been nicely topped.
thanks for the insight....
dazed and confused- lay off the pipe, dude
Sorry - trying not use much words!
A scribe is there to take up dimensional variation.
A reveal is there to take up dimensional variation.
Doing both might as well as well be pink rococo (cool word, that - rococo)
Just get the job done on time and on budget and it is "Zen" enough to please this fine American. OUT!
'Minimalist Details' sounds like 'how to book' for 'Real Estate Decorators', in this context.
Look at some of the drywall reveals that have been used on this site for examples http://mybuildingpro.com/drywall%20reveals.html
larryk I'd love to see some pictures
sounds like a great job. A note about the light switches (although you won't be adjusting yours) I've been curious too. I've seen them (from photographs) placed next to doors, under counters, or in drawers/closets. That is generally places that most Int'l codes wouldn't permit
Hello All,
How funny to see this thread appended to after five years. Wow. I didn't remember everything I wrote here. It was fun to go back and reread all of the comments.
Well, I recently sold the apartment so somebody else gets to live with the minimalist details. I have to say that my plaster (joint compound) ceiling did not crack anywhere in the past five years. Amazing. The cork was a nice surface to live on, quiet and comfortable.
diyer, if I am not mistaken, all of your reveals are part way up the wall, above the baseboard. My project was putting in recessed aluminum moldings at the bottom of the walls, flush (?) with the concrete slab. Read my tale of woe, above. Never do this. You have been warned. There are no perfect planes on earth, certainly no perfect walls meeting perfect floors, at least not in any construction that I can afford.
Thanks to everybody for the help and encouragement. I might be able to show some pictures. I think the apartment came out ok, given the amount of work I put into it.
We're off to new adventures now. We are looking into prewar apartments. I love those solid plaster and lathe walls. Somebody told me a story of a football player who used to punch holes in drywall. The guy moved into an old apartment and punched the plaster and lathe wall, breaking his hand. Now, that's what I call a wall. A wall should hurt you when you hit it.
larryk,
This sounds like a very fun job. I'm impressed that you're taking it on yourself. Does this mean you're doing it all yourself?
Regarding the outlets, have you looked into Bocci 22? They are beautiful receptacles, but again, you need to have a skilled plasterer install them. Are you doing the electrical work yourself? Or do you have a licensed electrician?
You should consider using the Lutron Vareo series for the light switches. Even Pawson can't avoid electrical code, but there are tricks he uses to hide the location of receptacles which I can't really describe here. It's all integral to his designs. Have you considered floor outlets, placed under a removable floor plate that matches the rest of the floor finish?
FYI...3/4" reveal at the floor will be easily visible, especially from the opposite side of the room. You should really aim to have no more than a 3/16" reveal if at all possible...or plan to paint the reveal if it stays at 3/4".
Ideally you run all the wires in the wall, not in the base reveal. But, I assume you're avoiding opening up the wall to save money, right?
Hello FP,
Yes, I did all of the work myself, the ceilings and the recessed moldings, etc. I did not skim coat the concrete slab and install the cork floor. I plastered the whole ceiling myself, while walking around on drywall stilts. I can't imagine how those old plasterers worked over their heads, day after day. I could barely lift my arm when I finished that job.
You are right, a 3/4" reveal is visible from across the room. Oh well. Perhaps I should have installed 3/16". Are you serious though, 3/16"??? The slab leveling issues never go away, regardless of the height, so I have to question my own sanity in installing these recessed moldings.
Thanks for the link to the Bocci 22. I have now fallen in love with a wall socket. ;-) Is it possible to drill two perfect holes in a piece of sheetrock? How do you get those perfect holes?
I didn't change around any electrical, just tried to come up with some switches and sockets that were less ugly. I think I installed something similar to the Lutron Vareo line, I don't remember now.
I don't believe I could have installed a removable floorplate over the existing concrete slab. This was not new construction, I had to work with what I was given and did not have a lot of money. I also had to try to preserve my marriage. ;-)
Pawson is Pawson. I have read about the lengths he goes to in order to pull off his designs. For instance, there are those Douglas fir planks that stretch unbroken from the front to the back of his house, planks so big they had to shut down roads to truck them in. Also, he installed a huge piece of marble that serves as a counter, from the kitchen, all the way out the back of the house. I understand the level of purity involved in Pawson's designs and I am in awe of them.
Of course, anything can be ruined:
http://nymag.com/nymetro/realestate/vu/14910/
I almost got to see one of these apartments but the real estate agent never got back to me. Unfortunately, I don't have enough cash to buy one of these apartments.
3/16" is the reveal the local minimalist guru uses as well.
the bocci 22 has had legal problems, have they not? and at 10-16 dollars an outlet, it's not cheap.
sure is damn sexy, though...
there is a recessed plate w/ lips for the socket. you just mud to the lip.
larryk...yes, money is always an issue...And, as you well know, minimalism is generally more expensive to achieve because you can't cover up your mistakes with filler pieces, moulding, or other devices. Good luck on the apartment. Post pictures when you're done! I'd love to see how it comes out.
Holz...I haven't heard anything about legal problems with the Bocci 22. It meets electrical code and is UL listed. I can't find anything disparaging online either. What have you heard?
Larry k -- I never saw this thread when it had its original run, which is a shame as it is clearly and intelligently written! I applaud you for putting the effort into what you wanted and for seeing it through to the finish, despite how difficult it was. I wanted to let you know that I am bookmarking this thread and will be sharing it with clients in the future. We often have clients who have their hearts set on minimalist detailing, which is fantastic of course as it is gorgeous and calming, but sometimes it is hard to explain why "less" should "cost more". This is a great explanation of how difficult it is to get minimalist detailing done right, and a good argument for hiring a skilled contractor rather than the low-bidder who is used to covering up his mistakes with stock crown moulding and baseboard shoes from the local Home Depot (for example).
As a side note -- those plaster walls you are looking for now -- beware that the knuckle-busting stories are indeed true! Metal lath and thick plaster is incredibly durable stuff -- meaning that you will have a hard time even driving nails to hang pictures. You should just know that in advance -- it is much harder to make changes in plaster / lath walls than it is in drywall (for example, install or move a receptacle, etc). Just don't harbor any dreams of installing reveal mouldings in THIS stuff!
Lastly -- for my own curiosity -- were you able to notice any difference in your ability to sell your apt given its detailing? Did the modern renovation seem to help the price-point at all? I'm always curious about the market value of these things.
Hello Mantaray,
Thanks for your kind words. I am glad my humble experience can help educate people on why subtracting design elements often leads to a more expensive job. When you only have a few elements, those elements have to be perfect, there is no place to hide imperfections.
I was not altogether happy with the quality of the floor installation. Cork is one of those materials that requires a perfect substrate, as it shows all imperfections. I think the concrete skim coat was well done, but not perfect. I was amazed at the skill of the guy who did the troweling but I think the floor installation was a little rushed.
Of course, this being New York, the contractors have to finish as quickly as possible in order to move on to the next job. Even when you pay a lot sometimes is seems like you don't get a lot. Perhaps I should have done the floor installation myself but I was tired.
You are right about the permanent nature of plaster walls. That is their strength and their downfall. I was reminded of this last weekend when I looked at an apartment that was in need of renovation. There was Wiremold everywhere, sticking out of holes drilled through the plaster, in the most horrible way imaginable. I couldn't live with what had been done and I couldn't imagine paying to get it fixed.
As for gaining some advantage in the marketplace, I have to say that I don't think I realized a higher price because of the minimalist details. Of course, we sold in a difficult market, in a building that has high maintenance charges. One apartment cannot escape the market conditions of the building it is in, not matter what you do with the moldings.
I think buyers don't see minimalist details. After all, these kind of details are attractive because of what is not there. People think of what is there, they do not think in terms of what COULD be there in place of what IS there. ;-) Nobody says, "Wow, how awful this room would look if you had put up huge cove moldings."
As someone pointed out early in this thread, furniture covers up all of those recessed moldings. Perhaps I should have sold the apartment empty but I could not afford to carry two places. The apartment would have looked better with just three pieces of perfect furniture but I own too much stuff.
I enjoyed living with the results of my work. It was soothing to look up at a smooth ceiling, instead of being disturbed by the uneven texture of a dirty popcorn ceiling, a ceiling that could not be repainted without parts of it falling down in your face. How do I put a price on being able to get up at night and walk to the bathroom without all of that squeaking from the cheap parquet tiles? I enjoyed painting my walls, as they were a breeze with the recessed moldings, no trim work to paint with a brush and you could paint all the way to the floor with a roller.
I dug up this interesting article on the differences in craftsmanship between American, European, and Asian contracting companies. It does take a skilled contractor to pull off minimalist details and a lot of companies do not want to tackle those jobs because they are afraid of losing their shirts:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/08/arts/design/08IOVI.html?scp=8&sq=MOMA%20construction%20coffee%20cups&st=cse&pagewanted=1
Wow - great thread. I think we need to start a "minimum du jour" thread for images only. The first image should be the Bocci 22 receptacle that FP posted, then a Lutron light switch, then some eye-candy reveals.
Very interesting update, Larry! It's so great to hear feedback from what it means to live in a place after it's been renovated. I've conducted my own personal user-surveys sometimes for years after a project, but I have yet to work for a firm that incorporates such a thing as standard practice. (It's part of my dream for my own firm some day...) It's always fascinating to hear about what worked and what didn't, and how you learned from the experience.
As a side note, I used to work for a firm that made a practice of encouraging clients to read "Mr. Blandings Builds His Dreamhouse" before starting large house projects. You should give it a shot -- after all you've been through, you'll probably truly appreciate it!
Such good stuff. A few thoughts that arise:
The quarter-round shoe that is the final step in traditional trim solves the problem of fitting baseboard to an irregular floor -- because the slender molding accommodates waves in the surface without any scribing. And those parquet squares needed a far less perfect slab surface, in terms of both major and minor irregularities, that does a thin veneer like VCT, linoleum, or cork. It's no accident that finishes like the flooring squares are so popular with a certain class of builders !
"I think buyers don't see minimalist details. After all, these kind of details are attractive because of what is not there." How true. Perfection is really just the absence of distracting faults and flaws, and this goes for the attractions of modernism, as you imply.
I have spoken idly with cabinetmaking colleagues about visiting past jobs to see how the work is performing -- but I have never witnessed any kind of formal program, anywhere I've worked, to make this happen It would certainly bear fruit, wouldn't it.
Yes, SDR, that is what the shoe is commonly used for, but it isn't necessary -- running the baseboard long and installing it before the flooring is installed allows you to a) skip the shoe and b) refinish the floors for years without having to rip out your shoe first and without an edge against the baseboard. This of course requires a good flooring sub. Alternatively you can scribe the baseboard to the floor, which I've also seen done. If you look through pictures of "olden days" houses you will often see floors and baseboards with no shoe. I was shown the techniques by a new england craftsman... it's amazing what kind of quality construction techniques live on in that part of the country. My opinion is that's it's simply a common acceptance of poor craft that allows shoes to flourish so freely... Honestly I don't really mind them against wood baseboards on wood floors (I can understand how much they simplify construction) but against (gasp) the toekick of poorly installed cabinetry, or at tile floors, it just BURNS me up. Especially since you so often see WHITE stock pre-painted shoes against OAK cabinetry! Nobody should have a shoe running along the bottom of their cabinetry toekick, least of all a mismatching one. Ugh.
Yes it kind of amazes me, the lack of follow-through in this profession. Not just with the design, but even as regards project management, etc.
Yes, it's just "the tail-light guarantee" and see ya later, I guess. Of course there's a call-back for short-term troubles, but after a while it seems that minor (cosmetic) failures are taken for granted or not noticed.
I can't say I've seen wood flooring laid up to a baseboard -- but I haven't seen everything by a long shot. And I know what you mean about inappropriate shoe application -- I'm happy to say that I've seldom seen the kinds of abuses you mention, just often enough to know it happens. Aak.
There's a NorCal architect who shall remain nameless, who is fond (unless he's gotten beyond it) of specifying large and tall banks of cabinetry to be set flush within a sheetrocked opening, with nothing but the door reveals separating the colorful stained plywood cabinet fronts (e.e., doors) from the white-painted rock, all in the same plane. Does he really think sheetrock -- hell, framing -- is done to that standard ? If the builder and the cabinetmaker can get together before framing commences, and the one can convince the other to select really straight sticks around those openings, then there's a prayer that it might go well. . .but is that even the protocol ?
Orhan, nice one. How far off the floor is that ?
Hello,
I am enjoying this discussion, thanks for all your comments.
Yes, Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House is one of my favorite films. The thing that amuses me the most about the film is that the apartment he moves out of, because it is too small, is a dream apartment for us. We cannot afford that apartment. How standards have changed over time.
You have to struggle with failure when building in the physical world, there is no way to escape it and the mistakes are hard to correct. I used to work in a cabinetmaking shop. One of our favorite sayings was "You don't want to offend God with too much perfection." No problem there. Our other favorite saying was that we spent half of our time making mistakes and the other half of the time correcting the mistakes.
I remember my wife yelling "You don't know how to finish this!!!", in the middle of this renovation. Well, yeah, she was right, I was in deep with trying to level out parts of the slab, put in all that molding and finish the plaster job on the ceiling, all by myself. I wish we had had somebody film our renovation, it would have made an interesting short film. ;-)
I remember all of that shoe molding, I ripped it out. It was depressing to see nails sticking out of it all over the place, pieces of it coming off of the wall, just an ugly mess. Yeah, I know why it is used, I am sure it could have been installed better.
As for getting feedback from the users of a space, I think that is something that is ignored. The users and maintenance guys can teach architects a lot about what works and what does not but their contributions are left out of the process.
The issue of acceptable tolerances within the different trades is an interesting topic. The guy who ran my cabinetmaking shop told me that he was working on a construction site once and was doing the surveying. He was trying to get the slab level within a 1/4" of an inch over 30 feet, or something like that. He noticed that everybody had stopped working and was looking at him. He said, "How close do you get it?" and they said, "Ah, within an inch or so is fine."
So, for better or worse, here are some pictures of the finished apartment, from our FSBO ad:
http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/ny/fsbo/fsbo-407-park-avenue-south-18b-063100
There is one picture in the series of the recessed molding and the cork floor. It is what it is. ;-)
An interesting read, Larry. Sorry you had to endure a major hiccup in the economy to accompany your sale. The observations of various posters are interesting -- hilarious at times: Bathroom curtains for privacy ?? Heh heh.
It's a pleasure to be in the company of someone who's trying to "do it better," and succeeding. . .
Your table and chairs are evidence of some serious woodworking skills. I hope you get back to a shop sooner or later. And I'm sorry you ever had to endure a work environment where the prevailing ethic was "eh -- who'll notice ?"
Still, my first job at a good shop left me with this: "Why is there never time to do it right, and always time to do it over ?"
The guy who ran my shop was incredibly talented. He designed and executed pieces that were beyond my skills. He was a perfectionist. He had a degree in Architecture to boot. Unfortunately, after 16 years of struggling in the cabinetmaking field, gaining some success but not a lot of money, he decided to give up the shop. The other guy, there were three of us, forced me out so he could hire more workers. So it goes.
The trouble is that when you do work at a fixed price and things go wrong or take longer than you expected, you eat the time and the cost to do it over and your wage starts dropping dramatically. It is a tough business. The professional guys convinced me not to get into the field. I spent a couple of years trying to build up some woodworking skills and made some progress but I know that I have a long way to go and no way to get there.
Plus, working in a shop is dangerous, no question about it. I was serious about safety and I never got hurt but bad things happen to the most careful people.
So, to answer your question, you hope to save a little time by taking a short cut, you never think about the time to do it over. ;-) Even with the most careful preparation, you make mistakes and you have to figure out how to recover from those mistakes.
The shop owner told me a story about how the other guy in the shop was routing on a mahogany headboard when the router got away from him and carved a nice S curve in the middle of the headboard. The guy didn't scream, swear, or throw the router. He calmly turned the router off, put it on his bench, stood back and silently contemplated the ruined headboard. After a couple of minutes, the guy grabbed a piece of ebony and some chisels and started inlaying the groove. When he got done, you would have sworn that the ebony curve was put in the piece intentionally.
This was one of my favorite books:
http://www.amazon.com/Fixing-Avoiding-Woodworking-Mistakes-Nagyszalanczy/dp/156158097X
Wright, in his early work, and Schindler, later, sometimes used a shoe molding milled at 45 degrees -- to make housekeeping easier, I surmise; dirt and dust would be more easily swept away than with other shapes at the base of the wall. Irving Gill created a cove at the base of walls in his houses, if I am not mistaken, for the same purpose.
SDR, like 1/2"..
sheetrock w/ metal edge trim. nothing exotic.;.)
Nice. The view is appropriate; that's the way this detail looks from a typical viewing angle. What's the project ?
it was for a graig ellwood remodel my friend julie hart did. here is more on it.
Like the guy said, that's heaven. Nice story !
Thanks Orhan, nice write up and beautiful pictures. Wow. Crisp and clean. Is that a 3/16" reveal? ;-) I wish I could see it shot from the side. Was that done throughout the whole house?
Seeing all of that sun and sky makes me even more depressed about looking at yet another New York apartment where I get the shaft, the air shaft. Two different things though.
I guess budget numbers are confidential but I know that that renovation was not done on the cheap. What would a beach bungalow in Malibu sell for?
in mies's lafayette park, he used a curved 3" base molding (no shoe molding). it's very simple, elegant, and practical, but not fussy. i think the new generation of minimalists (pawson, adjaye, etc.) often tend to take things too far; i have a strong suspicion that those details do not hold up well over time and cost a fortune to get just right. there's a real art to figuring out what details are critical and what details to let go. it takes an awful lot of experience to figure out which are which.
of course lafayette park was a developer driven project. would mies have done the same thing at farnsworth? i can't say.
I actually *tend* to agree with you, jafidler, regarding pawson -- I think he takes it too far, personally. But that's neither here nor there.
SDR, I'll see if I can round up some pics to show you what I mean.
Thanks, manta. This is a useful and little-discussed topic. jafidler, is that a convex or a concave base, at lafayette park ?
I also agree about the extreme minimalism practiced today. I think minimalism is great to the point that it eliminates unnecessary flourishes and simplifies things, especially when it can still employ reasonably standard elements. The thing with Pawson and others is that it's hyper-minimal, that not only have extremities been removed, but even the subtle touches and details that aren't noticed right away, and especially the way a building evolves and ages over time. These projects are more reductionism than minimalism: they have reduced the project to being visually digestible in an instant and do not account for how a building will change, whether the aging of materials or the infiltration of fingerprints and niceties of life in the space after the sleek photo is taken.
To be frank, I don't see much in the Pawson images presented that would directly conflict with that list of desirables. That is, just because you strip away every unnecessary molding and trim, use the nicest materials you can find, and make a tour-de-force of the use monolithic material, doesn't mean (to me) that a pristine and unchanging environment is the only acceptable result. The very lack of joints and seams resulting might be seen as a subtlety that one would not see immediately, and the materials Pawson uses are ones that age nicely, however they are detailed. . .no ?
On the other hand, the notorious lack of prudent detailing in the work of some early modernists, not excluding Corbu and Wright, led to ugly weathering effects, etc. If that's what you refer to, right on. Do we have a dividing line between exterior and interior work, maybe ? Or is good detailing, appropriate to the locations and conditions of use, always going to separate the men from the boys -- as it were ?
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