Most companies that make clad windows also make all wood although they will try to talk you out of using them. Look at Kolbe and Kolbe, Lincoln, Windsor if budget is a major factor.
Yeah, I used to sell Jeld Wen for a couple years. They can do it it without cladding, no problems. BUT the maintenance on an all wood window is ridiculous. They'll have to be painted or stained at least every other year, if not annually. Were you just wanting to stain the frame? Why all wood?
I really don't know much about windows, aesthetically my first choice would be wood (pun). I figured there would be maintenance issues; I just wasn't sure to what extent. Does the species of wood make a difference in regards to maintenance? The duratherm windows allow you choose from many different quality species of wood, i.e. mahogany.
If you want to go on the cheap and your in New England check out Brosco....double hung, single pane glass, true divided lights.. they have both the Boston Style and New York Style. They should last you
a couple years...
We have used Marvin all wood in the past on a restoration project and use them nearly exclusively in the clad configuration.
No matter which way you decide to go, start chatting up the local dealers as well as the local builders and find out who has that best customer service. I find that even though I can get less expensive windows from certain manufacturers, the customer service from the supplier is what makes or breaks a project for us in the end because callbacks are no fun.
would it be cheaper to simply buy an aluminum frame window and have a carpenter make a veneer frame that wraps around the aluminum out of 1/4" or 1/2" ply? I'm sure something like that could be done. Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong though.
Apurimac – im not sure if that would work , but definitely a good idea
Duratherm includes a wood storefront system. Dynamic shows images of what I would consider a wood storefront system. Is that something all handled by the window manufacturer ? Or does a company like Dynamic or Loewen supply the windows and the rest of the system is handled by a mill worker/glazing contractor.
The Dynamic looks all custom, where as Loewen is not.
I designed a house for a client (in-laws) completed in 1996 and within 10 years they have had to replace 6 wood window units due to rotting and deterioration. Big difference between old growth and new growth wood.
They decided to not use clad windows to save money.....
meow, sorry, I forgot I posted on here. Obviously some species weather better than others, but you're talking major, MAJOR bucks to spec a specific species. (That's a lot of spec's.) If they can afford Norco (Jeld-Wen's wood window company) they can afford Andersens, Pellas, et al. All wood windows are gonna cost more than vinyl or aluminum. A wood window is typically (but not always) made by hand. (relatively.) But that's because wood can be different grades, it can be chipped, splintered, etc... and it has to be hand picked, glued, pinned, and screwed. Aluminum and vinyl are both homogeneous and can be extruded, molded, etc... and done efficiently by machines. Personally, after selling windows and doors for 2 years of my life, I would go with vinyl windows and fiberglass doors on my own house, even if it was a 28,000sf mega mansion on billionaire row. They seal better, don't warp, and don't require as much maintenance. Wood is a close second, though, because the look is leaps and bounds ahead of other materials. Between you and me, I would look at a metal-clad wood from JW, Anderson, or Pella if you're completly sold on Wood. There's quality in all three names, and a great warantee behind all three.
I agree that wood clad is by far the best product on the market but there is a big difference in the wood type and finish on the inside of most. Loewen, Pella, JW etc often use pine, flat grain fir or something else which in many case not a great look for the inside. More expensive products such as Dynamic etc you can spec a particular product, stain and finish grain.
Best way is to get real sample corners and look at them up close ( most Reps will drop off a sample, I know because I have many of them sitting in my office ) It helps to explain the difference to clients and probably one of the more important details in a new home. If you want to go crazy you may want to check out the Euro style tilt and turn products too, nice quality, variety of finishes, often spruce or larch, can be very pricey and the hardware may be too technical looking for some ( ie the exposed patio door hardware is a bit awkward when its used with the tilt and turn options )
Well, my question didn't seem worth a whole new thread, so this will suffice.
We are looking to replace the windows on our house, for energy efficiency reasons mostly, and I want some advice.
Our current windows are single pane, metal (heavy as hell), with plastic fake muttons?. They're black, and I would say steal, but that seems wrong. The house was built in '81, and the windows are presumed to be that old. So.....
When the estimators come, should I look at vinyl or alluminum windows? I know I want insulated glass, and low-e, but what should the frames be? They didn't list fiberglass as a choice.
And, as you all know, I think, I live in a hot-temperate climate.
full aluminum will transfer heat and cold more readily unless thermally broken ( = $$$).
i'd look at vinyl-clad or metal-clad wood windows for greatest efficiency relative to cost. you'll get a pre-finished/protected surface at the outside and wood that you can paint on the inside. we got metal-clad from weathershield in a dark bronze color and we like them pretty well.
wood windows.... add stain.... then 3-5 coats of spar urethane.... not polyurethane.......
wood will react with the weather conditions.....
trick to seal up wood.... mix your spar urethane with paint thinner (or acetone..gotta relook that) as a 50/50 mix..... by doing this you penetrate the grain more and get a deeper seal......... do that for 2-3 coats then do a full 100% spar urethane coat
I was looking at Eagle Windows last week They have a new roll-up
screen, which is way cool. This way you don't have to be looking thru
the screen durning the winter time or only when you have the windows
open to keep the bugs out. Were going to try one for our bathroom.
I also had a great find today which isn't windows but SIP panels with
a built in ventalation board. A contractor has 40 4'x8' panels sitting in his yard from a project that he completed two years ago. So I be trying to work out a deal with him cause they would sure make my house alot warmer and cooler. There might be enough savings in the panels to pay for wood shingles instood of asphalt.
I have spent the past two months studying windows exclusively. Holy crap.
Some new wood windows hold up a lot better than others, but nothing will match old-growth wood, which you can't find anymore unless you get salvage windows (which is great if you can make it part of your design).
The first counter-balanced wood windows are still in use in a church in England. They date from 1690. Yes, wood is going to take maintenance (but not every other year as somebody suggested). But the difference is that if wood windows are installed CORRECTLY and maintained semi-regularly, you can expect them to last a century. Certainly they will last longer than any other material. What most people take into account is that while they do require maintenance, at least they can BE maintained, which can't be said for other materials necessarily. And while you're replacing your PVC windows in 15 years, your wood ones will still be going strong.
Aluminum windows are terrible performers - even with thermal breaks, they transfer heat like crazy. They might last quite a while, which is good, but good there are maintenance issues. And even 100% recycled aluminum takes a lot more energy to manufacture than wood.
PVC. Oh, PVC. Dioxins. Tons of Persistent Organic Pollutants pumped into the air and water every year because of manufacture. PVC windows are not EVER made from recycled vinyl, which is a shame because their lifespan is "optimally" 25 years - which is a stretch to say the least. They don't perform any better than wood, but the chemicals released during manufacture, in use and after disposal cause a lot of damage to humans and the rest of the environment. Although you can try to keep them clean with an alkaline detergent, they will fade over time (if coloured) or yellow (if white). At least you can paint wood and the anodizing on aluminum lasts for quite a while.
If it were my money, from a triple-bottom line, I would probably go with alu-clad wood. But what do I know? One needs to consider the entire life cycle cost of such decisions, which don't end when you replace your windows with something else.
So..... just a few issues you might want to think about. Maybe if my research paper ever gets published, I'll let you all know.
ha! slantsix, you might be interested to know that the wood windows in the downstairs of my house are 120 years old (I believe), and the vinyl replacements that someone put in the upstairs are maybe 10 years old, but already need replacing!
slantsix, thank you; you are saying a lot of what I would have wanted to say but much better.
To the Original Poster, in case he/she is still looking : Although Marvin, et all can be pursuaded to make wood windows, in my experience they still refuse to make other small changes (like, for example, they won't go less than a 1" mullion, if I recall correctly, so the windows can still look oddly beefy and ill-proportioned); also, whenever we had them priced out, it was invariably cheaper to go with a local hand-made window shop (and of course, much better built and much better looking). So, look around you for a local millwork shop that might also restore or build windows. If you are an a historic-concious area, such as New England, this will be a lot easier.
SH, vinyl is probably the biggest immediate thermal bang for your buck, but also has the downsides of being not good for the earth, and as slantsix says not actually being maintenable beyond the estimated life-span.
The biggest omission from this thread to me is weatherstripping : a decent wood window with an intelligent profile design and good weatherstripping will be fine (can even be excellent) against the cold. So when you are looking at windows, don't forget to consider this important aspect. Make sure you have tight seals at the sill, jambs, and meeting rail; and that the weatherstripping is of a type likely to remain tight rather than fail within a year.
Agreed %100 with everything slantsix listed, particularly the alu-clad wood suggestion (if the building is intended to last a very long time or the client is reich). Building some sham faux ply cladding around the windows is asking for litigation troubles. Mantaray also brings up a valid point - find a local millwork shop without a national brand as they make windows for your micro-climate. The only point : cryzko : brought up which I might find open to scrutiny is the 50/50 mix. It might not perform in your climate or on the species of wood. Furthermore the 50/50 mix is not covered under warranty or considered the standard of practice but from where : cryzko : sits he might have an 'ace in the hole'. But you don't get to call him on it and all you can tell the judge is "I heard it on the internet".
P.S.: I thought these were Mac people - why are you asking them about windows?
the lumber used in wood windows these days is too soft to leave exposed to the outside - super-duper finish or not. you definitely want some sort of exterior cladding. while the vinyl might be more dimensionally stable in hot/cold swings, slantsix's pvc comments are the reason we chose the aluminum clad.
it also looks better to me aesthetically: aluminum's creases are tighter instead of the rounded/molded vinyl corners.
i would also vote in favor of old wood windows if you can find some in good condition. we're slowly replacing all of our 100 yr old windows, though, because they've just degraded too far. it's definitely a bad trade and we regret that previous owners didn't keep up with the painting/glazing maintenance. (now that 'maintenance-free' has become the norm, people have forgotten what stewardship means, but that's a different conversation.)
Being that this is my personal home, and we all know that Interns don't have a whole lot of capital to throw around, it seems we may have to go the PVC route. I know, I know, but we have 11 windows to replace, and I don't know how much MTL-CLD would cost. I will definately ask, since I would personally prefer wood (does the wood portion come prefinished, or do I have to paint/stain it?).
I will let you know how it goes. Heck, the estimator may come out, and give us a price over our budget, and I will have to file this away for later use. You never know.
i don't think metal-clad was much (if any) more than vinyl-clad. are you considering all vinyl?
if that's the way you've got to go to get the job done, they're fine. quality is usually not as high and you'll be frustrated within 5yrs by little things breaking like latches and stops, but these things don't compromise the thermal performance, just the ease of operation.
always hard to judge (especially given current energy prices) whether waiting could be better than buying the lesser product...
i don't know how big your windows are but ours - about 18"-24" wide by 36"-42" tall - cost between $250 and $350 each (2006 dollars). the bigger part of the cost was the carpenter's install, something not affected by the type of window you get.
if you get metal- or vinyl-clad wood, the interior wood is unfinished and does need to be painted or stained.
let your estimator know that you don't want dividers (if that's the case). if you let him know in advance that no grilles, true- or false-divided lights are necessary, it might save you some money. and those things are ugly anyway.
Sarah,
I'm in the process of replacing my windows and found that the Pella alum clad wood windows were more economical than the vinyl/PVC replacement windows.
Argh, I HATE replacement windows, so I'm tearing the old window out down to the RO and putting in all new.
From my research Eagle (Andersen's premium line) are the best available around my area but come at a hefty $$$. Andersen's are vinyl clad which was a deal breaker for me. To my knowledge Marvin uses a fiberglass cladding....they say it isn't vinyl and it isn't aluminum. Didn't look at the Big Box brands like jeld-wen or peachtree. Pella also gives a decent architect/designer discount. Call the rep. Just stay away from their cheap line sold at Lowe's.
Speaking of full wood windows, I'm pulling 40-50 year old full wood casements. Of course the efficiency of the glass is far better these days, but unfortunately the previous owners didn't maintain the wood. I hope the refinish the wood and salvage the windows for a cottage a family member is building. Nothing beats old wood.
curious to know how y'all feel about the various operation mechanisms of windows... spring-loaded, etc... the vinyl sashes in my apartment seem to stay up via friction only and let me tell you, that does NOT hold very long. as most of my experience is in wood windows, i'm not familiar with this friction jamb concept... any one have any thoughts on operability?
we painted ours white. really, have you seen the quality of the wood you get in these windows? (any brand.) it's not great: yellow/greenish/white and soft. you can dent it with your fingernail. it hardly deserves to be stained.
uhmm unless you want to do Argon sealed windows, you could pretty much make them yourselves. Okay not yourself but have a joiner do it. Please note I said joiner, not carpenter. Especially if you want to keep the windows all looking the same or aiming for a sustainable product. And it doesn't necessarily have to be expensive. But I suspect in a location with standards that can only be achieved by "registered" companies having the energy rated would be difficult.
For anybody considering replacing windows, I urge you to think a little longer term:
Now, you might not live in your house long enough to need to replace your windows again, but somebody will have to. From one study I found in the UK, PVC lasts 24 years, and wood and aluminum lasts 40, typically. Those are real numbers from real windows, not manufacturer data.
Anyway, those PVC windows will need replacement in about 20 to 25 years, while your wood windows are good for probably another two decades, give or take. That means that while those wood windows are going strong (for you or somebody else), the first set of PVC windows now sits in a landfill. The ONLY benefactor here is the PVC window manufacturer.
If your current wood windows aren't completely rotten, you can improve their thermal performance up to a level nearly indistinguishable from new windows by simply caulking, weatherstripping, and adding a storm window, which is typically much cheaper than any replacement.
hahaha! I hadn't thought of that. But people should definitely see the movie.
My gf is on a low-level crusade to rid our house of anything plastic that holds food. So, stainless steel and glass containers for us. Expensive on a student budget, but i think in the long term it's probably the right way to go.
hmmm - I was going to suggest thermal skin which is a film you place over glazing to increase its insulating value. But after your comments about Blue Vinyl I think I need to check if its made of acrylic or plastic before doing so. But I have never spec'd pvc for a window ever and don't plan to do so! However we use alot of pvc for plumbing and the alternatives seem to cause cancer, break down rapidly or are brutally expensive.
yes slantsix i am trying to do the same vis-a-vis plastic containers! it's actually working pretty well for me -- i just bring lunch to work in my regular pottery vessels with saran wrapped covers... it's not like it HAS to be in a fancy leak-proof tupperware or something.
holz, historically wood double-hung windows were hung on weighted chains, hidden in a weight-pocket at the jambs. all the original double-hung (and actually even single-hung, come to think of it) windows i saw in boston were of this type. i'm sure there were other ways to do it back then but that's all i ever saw. not sure when this went out of fashion; for my money it is still by far the smoothest and most pleasurable method of operating a window. (I HATE HATE HATE fighting against the friction of my vinyl friction-jambs all the time!) With weighted-chain sashes, you can just reach over with your arm at any ole angle -- without having to worry about torque on your elbow, if you know what i'm talking about (think of when you are sitting on a couch and want to open the window behind it -- and you try to just reach back and open it up, but you can't get enough strength to overcome the friction from where you're sitting -- you have to get up, lean over the couch, and heave, correct?) well with a weighted chain, all you have to do is shove a TINY bit up, and then the momentum of the weight helps you glide the window into place, where it stops. So once you overcome the small initial friction, you don't have to keep on heaving. Sooooo pleasant and smooth! Oh I miss them. This is what I will install in my house hands down. Assuming I am rich of course.
Ok, well, since you all were so kind to help me out on this, I thought I'd let you know how it went last night.
The guy showed up right on time, his name was Jack, I think. He only sold vinyl windows, somehow I guess I missed that. He showed us three options, Standard(double glass, and low e, SHGC of .30 or lower - I cant remember), their Marqui (bigger frame, styrofoam insulation, and three panes of glass with low e, SHGC of .17) and then the Marqui with only two panes of glass. He told us we could save money by turning our Dining area window from two mulled together windows into a single Casement window, and then gave us pricing.
The Standard would be about 41-4200 installed, and he would include an extra layer of low e on the West windows. The most expensive option was about 6200.
I asked about lifespan, and he said 50-75 years. I was a little confused, but thought maybe what you all were talking about was the latches and looks, and not the actual window, when you said 25 years.
I also asked about off-gassing, and he thought I meant out-gassing, which I had no idea about. He assured me that the Argon would not leak from their windows because of extra seals, and such. The windows will come with a lifetime garuntee as long as we own the home.
Husband said "Get them."
So now, I'm to call the Attic people about a Radiant barrier estimate.
I'm still concerned about chemicle fumes, ect, and that poor little Abram won't develope properly because we wanted some new windows. Maybe, if I keep the house open for a few days? Husband says that the windows will be built from stock, and not freshly made vinyl, so it'd be ok. They would've off gassed at the factory. I hope he's right.
Mostly your husband is right, but the PVC will degrade over time regardless. Some PVC windows use lead as their UV stabilizer, and others don't.
I don't want to scare you too much - we all live with these products and we're all fine, right?
To be clear, though - all windows have pros and cons. Ultimately, we all have to make these choices ourselves, but if you're given the option to choose, I feel it's better to make an informed decision.
Having said that, I want you to read this summary, which, if you're interested, links to the full report:
Sarah - I wouldn't worry about the off gassing of the vinyl on a window frame. It's a relatively small amount. Just be sure to make sure your house gets plenty of fresh air. Getting brand new wall to wall carpeting is where I'd get concerned.
Sounds like you had a salesman over. Have had plenty of those people knock on my door. The 50-75 years thing makes me laugh. No vinyl in the sunlight will last much over 25 years. It fades/yellows and becomes brittle. And argon does leak from windows...no seal will be perfect forever, but chances are the vinyl will fail before that.
Can't fault you on the price. $4200 sounds very reasonable. Going to a place like Lowes and having them install even the cheapest Pella or Peachtree windows would probably more than double that price.
Slant, that report is scary, overwhelming, and defeating. We don't use plastic containers for food, and try to keep away plastic toys, but there isn't much to be done about other things. The best I can do, is keep the windows open when the weather permits, to air out the house, and make sure Abe plays outside when he gets older.
I know all the green-ies are gonna kill me for even suggesting this, but are you SURE you need double-paned low-e? Even in Boston we used to recommend that if your house is tight (you are repointing the masonry, and you have fully insulated exterior walls and no noticeable air leaks or cold bridges), you'd probably be fine with single-panes. You do obviously lose some heat through the glass, but you also NEED a little movement in your airflow, and frankly if the rest of your house is tight and you pay attention the WEATHERSTRIPPING (VERY IMPORTANT) you're probably fine with single-panes. This of course was always an issue with historic homes -- which are way harder to keep tight -- but STILL we never had a complaint. I read later that the main culprits in building heat loss is poor insulation and inadequate weatherproofing (weatherstripping, caulking at joints, masonry pointing, etc.) and that the window pane heat loss was minimal compared to these.
As you are in Texas, not New England, I would imagine you might be able to find some savings there. Just a thought. Ok everyone get ready to dump on me...
Manta, our heat gain through the windows has to do more with the cracks, poor frames, ect, but you can harldy get single pane windows down here. The sun gets very hot in these parts, they're saying 98, but an index of 103 in the shade today, so radiant heat is a huge issue.
Unfortunately, our house is not tight. It was built in 1981, on expansive clay, so, we have a bad foundation problem. Its not really something we can fix, the peirs and such just make it worse. So, we have cracks in the walls, and the doors dont close, and the plates move, but oh well. We figure, if we replace the windows, so they will be functional, and operable, when it does cool down, in october, we can open them (yeah!). And, if we instal the radiant barrier in the attic, and add more ventilation up there - we have 1 turbine for the whole attic - then that will help a bunch as well.
manta - I'm really surprised you'd suggest single plane windows these days. The upcharge for double glazed low-e isn't that much and the u-value is drastically lower. Maybe in some parts of California where they have a very temperate climate with minimal heating and cooling costs, but even then. I've actually considered importing windows from Canada as their climate has forced them to make some very good triple glazed windows that seem to beat anything available in the US. Adding insulation to walls/ceiling is relatively easy and cheap. Buying new windows is not.
Sarah - I feel for you on that expansive TX soil. Many times have I heard people cursing that stuff. In the houston area the houses generally float on 12" thick foundation slabs. From what I've noticed that works ok, but I'm not sure I'd try that in northern TX where there is a bigger frost risk. Since I'm very aware of the TX climate and how you rarely get a chance to open the windows have you condered getting a whole house air exchanger? A little pricey but I found it well worth the money to keep the air fresh in my house through the dead of winter. I imagine it would be equally worthwhile for a TX summer.
The best thing about our house's ineffeciency is that we've gotten used to 83 degree heat, indoors, so, come October, we will be able to open the windows without issue. And, since our house was built in '81, it has great cross-ventilation. I swear, if you open the back bedroom windows, and the garage door on the opposite end of the house, its like a wind tunnel, even to the point that the wind gets annoying and uncomfortable.
And, yes, our house, as all the houses in N.Texas, is simply slab on grade. You're lucky if you get a bed of sand beneath it. When I built my house, I will either choose a location with bedrock, or spring for a waffle slab sort of deal. Or, Maybe I just won't put in a floor. Pier and beam? Who knows.
wood windows
Is there such a thing as a factory made wood interior and exterior finished window?
I've looked at Duratherm, and from what I understand they are all custom, which will probably break a small budget.
Other companies I've look at:
Zeluck
Loewen
Jeld-wen – clab with vinyl or metal, just like anderson or marvin windows.
Any help would be much appreciatted
JT windows
Most companies that make clad windows also make all wood although they will try to talk you out of using them. Look at Kolbe and Kolbe, Lincoln, Windsor if budget is a major factor.
spark,
why do they try to talk you out of it? because it cost a lot more? wood doesn't hold up like alum. or vinyl.
mdler,
thanks those are great. Do you have experience using JT? how is the price?
Jeld Wen and Marvin both make wood windows without cladding.
Yeah, I used to sell Jeld Wen for a couple years. They can do it it without cladding, no problems. BUT the maintenance on an all wood window is ridiculous. They'll have to be painted or stained at least every other year, if not annually. Were you just wanting to stain the frame? Why all wood?
PS Anderson does it too, but its like pulling teeth trying to get them.
**Andersen**
My bad.
rfuller,
I really don't know much about windows, aesthetically my first choice would be wood (pun). I figured there would be maintenance issues; I just wasn't sure to what extent. Does the species of wood make a difference in regards to maintenance? The duratherm windows allow you choose from many different quality species of wood, i.e. mahogany.
You're correct - both Duratherm and Zeluck are big bucks. I would check out Dynamic...
Pella might be a good option as well.
If you want to go on the cheap and your in New England check out Brosco....double hung, single pane glass, true divided lights.. they have both the Boston Style and New York Style. They should last you
a couple years...
We have used Marvin all wood in the past on a restoration project and use them nearly exclusively in the clad configuration.
No matter which way you decide to go, start chatting up the local dealers as well as the local builders and find out who has that best customer service. I find that even though I can get less expensive windows from certain manufacturers, the customer service from the supplier is what makes or breaks a project for us in the end because callbacks are no fun.
would it be cheaper to simply buy an aluminum frame window and have a carpenter make a veneer frame that wraps around the aluminum out of 1/4" or 1/2" ply? I'm sure something like that could be done. Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong though.
Thanks for help, this helps out a lot.
Apurimac – im not sure if that would work , but definitely a good idea
Duratherm includes a wood storefront system. Dynamic shows images of what I would consider a wood storefront system. Is that something all handled by the window manufacturer ? Or does a company like Dynamic or Loewen supply the windows and the rest of the system is handled by a mill worker/glazing contractor.
The Dynamic looks all custom, where as Loewen is not.
Duratherms are great...but pricy
If the windows are going to get a lot of sun exposure, you may want to think about going metal
Bronze windows are always nice...
I designed a house for a client (in-laws) completed in 1996 and within 10 years they have had to replace 6 wood window units due to rotting and deterioration. Big difference between old growth and new growth wood.
They decided to not use clad windows to save money.....
meow, sorry, I forgot I posted on here. Obviously some species weather better than others, but you're talking major, MAJOR bucks to spec a specific species. (That's a lot of spec's.) If they can afford Norco (Jeld-Wen's wood window company) they can afford Andersens, Pellas, et al. All wood windows are gonna cost more than vinyl or aluminum. A wood window is typically (but not always) made by hand. (relatively.) But that's because wood can be different grades, it can be chipped, splintered, etc... and it has to be hand picked, glued, pinned, and screwed. Aluminum and vinyl are both homogeneous and can be extruded, molded, etc... and done efficiently by machines. Personally, after selling windows and doors for 2 years of my life, I would go with vinyl windows and fiberglass doors on my own house, even if it was a 28,000sf mega mansion on billionaire row. They seal better, don't warp, and don't require as much maintenance. Wood is a close second, though, because the look is leaps and bounds ahead of other materials. Between you and me, I would look at a metal-clad wood from JW, Anderson, or Pella if you're completly sold on Wood. There's quality in all three names, and a great warantee behind all three.
I agree that wood clad is by far the best product on the market but there is a big difference in the wood type and finish on the inside of most. Loewen, Pella, JW etc often use pine, flat grain fir or something else which in many case not a great look for the inside. More expensive products such as Dynamic etc you can spec a particular product, stain and finish grain.
Best way is to get real sample corners and look at them up close ( most Reps will drop off a sample, I know because I have many of them sitting in my office ) It helps to explain the difference to clients and probably one of the more important details in a new home. If you want to go crazy you may want to check out the Euro style tilt and turn products too, nice quality, variety of finishes, often spruce or larch, can be very pricey and the hardware may be too technical looking for some ( ie the exposed patio door hardware is a bit awkward when its used with the tilt and turn options )
Well, my question didn't seem worth a whole new thread, so this will suffice.
We are looking to replace the windows on our house, for energy efficiency reasons mostly, and I want some advice.
Our current windows are single pane, metal (heavy as hell), with plastic fake muttons?. They're black, and I would say steal, but that seems wrong. The house was built in '81, and the windows are presumed to be that old. So.....
When the estimators come, should I look at vinyl or alluminum windows? I know I want insulated glass, and low-e, but what should the frames be? They didn't list fiberglass as a choice.
And, as you all know, I think, I live in a hot-temperate climate.
Ok, Go!
full aluminum will transfer heat and cold more readily unless thermally broken ( = $$$).
i'd look at vinyl-clad or metal-clad wood windows for greatest efficiency relative to cost. you'll get a pre-finished/protected surface at the outside and wood that you can paint on the inside. we got metal-clad from weathershield in a dark bronze color and we like them pretty well.
You alway come through, Steven. Thank you.
wood windows.... add stain.... then 3-5 coats of spar urethane.... not polyurethane.......
wood will react with the weather conditions.....
trick to seal up wood.... mix your spar urethane with paint thinner (or acetone..gotta relook that) as a 50/50 mix..... by doing this you penetrate the grain more and get a deeper seal......... do that for 2-3 coats then do a full 100% spar urethane coat
b
I was looking at Eagle Windows last week They have a new roll-up
screen, which is way cool. This way you don't have to be looking thru
the screen durning the winter time or only when you have the windows
open to keep the bugs out. Were going to try one for our bathroom.
I also had a great find today which isn't windows but SIP panels with
a built in ventalation board. A contractor has 40 4'x8' panels sitting in his yard from a project that he completed two years ago. So I be trying to work out a deal with him cause they would sure make my house alot warmer and cooler. There might be enough savings in the panels to pay for wood shingles instood of asphalt.
FLW did some cool andersen windows that you can still buy new
I have spent the past two months studying windows exclusively. Holy crap.
Some new wood windows hold up a lot better than others, but nothing will match old-growth wood, which you can't find anymore unless you get salvage windows (which is great if you can make it part of your design).
The first counter-balanced wood windows are still in use in a church in England. They date from 1690. Yes, wood is going to take maintenance (but not every other year as somebody suggested). But the difference is that if wood windows are installed CORRECTLY and maintained semi-regularly, you can expect them to last a century. Certainly they will last longer than any other material. What most people take into account is that while they do require maintenance, at least they can BE maintained, which can't be said for other materials necessarily. And while you're replacing your PVC windows in 15 years, your wood ones will still be going strong.
Aluminum windows are terrible performers - even with thermal breaks, they transfer heat like crazy. They might last quite a while, which is good, but good there are maintenance issues. And even 100% recycled aluminum takes a lot more energy to manufacture than wood.
PVC. Oh, PVC. Dioxins. Tons of Persistent Organic Pollutants pumped into the air and water every year because of manufacture. PVC windows are not EVER made from recycled vinyl, which is a shame because their lifespan is "optimally" 25 years - which is a stretch to say the least. They don't perform any better than wood, but the chemicals released during manufacture, in use and after disposal cause a lot of damage to humans and the rest of the environment. Although you can try to keep them clean with an alkaline detergent, they will fade over time (if coloured) or yellow (if white). At least you can paint wood and the anodizing on aluminum lasts for quite a while.
If it were my money, from a triple-bottom line, I would probably go with alu-clad wood. But what do I know? One needs to consider the entire life cycle cost of such decisions, which don't end when you replace your windows with something else.
So..... just a few issues you might want to think about. Maybe if my research paper ever gets published, I'll let you all know.
ha! slantsix, you might be interested to know that the wood windows in the downstairs of my house are 120 years old (I believe), and the vinyl replacements that someone put in the upstairs are maybe 10 years old, but already need replacing!
slantsix, thank you; you are saying a lot of what I would have wanted to say but much better.
To the Original Poster, in case he/she is still looking : Although Marvin, et all can be pursuaded to make wood windows, in my experience they still refuse to make other small changes (like, for example, they won't go less than a 1" mullion, if I recall correctly, so the windows can still look oddly beefy and ill-proportioned); also, whenever we had them priced out, it was invariably cheaper to go with a local hand-made window shop (and of course, much better built and much better looking). So, look around you for a local millwork shop that might also restore or build windows. If you are an a historic-concious area, such as New England, this will be a lot easier.
SH, vinyl is probably the biggest immediate thermal bang for your buck, but also has the downsides of being not good for the earth, and as slantsix says not actually being maintenable beyond the estimated life-span.
The biggest omission from this thread to me is weatherstripping : a decent wood window with an intelligent profile design and good weatherstripping will be fine (can even be excellent) against the cold. So when you are looking at windows, don't forget to consider this important aspect. Make sure you have tight seals at the sill, jambs, and meeting rail; and that the weatherstripping is of a type likely to remain tight rather than fail within a year.
Agreed %100 with everything slantsix listed, particularly the alu-clad wood suggestion (if the building is intended to last a very long time or the client is reich). Building some sham faux ply cladding around the windows is asking for litigation troubles. Mantaray also brings up a valid point - find a local millwork shop without a national brand as they make windows for your micro-climate. The only point : cryzko : brought up which I might find open to scrutiny is the 50/50 mix. It might not perform in your climate or on the species of wood. Furthermore the 50/50 mix is not covered under warranty or considered the standard of practice but from where : cryzko : sits he might have an 'ace in the hole'. But you don't get to call him on it and all you can tell the judge is "I heard it on the internet".
P.S.: I thought these were Mac people - why are you asking them about windows?
the lumber used in wood windows these days is too soft to leave exposed to the outside - super-duper finish or not. you definitely want some sort of exterior cladding. while the vinyl might be more dimensionally stable in hot/cold swings, slantsix's pvc comments are the reason we chose the aluminum clad.
it also looks better to me aesthetically: aluminum's creases are tighter instead of the rounded/molded vinyl corners.
i would also vote in favor of old wood windows if you can find some in good condition. we're slowly replacing all of our 100 yr old windows, though, because they've just degraded too far. it's definitely a bad trade and we regret that previous owners didn't keep up with the painting/glazing maintenance. (now that 'maintenance-free' has become the norm, people have forgotten what stewardship means, but that's a different conversation.)
Thank you all.
Being that this is my personal home, and we all know that Interns don't have a whole lot of capital to throw around, it seems we may have to go the PVC route. I know, I know, but we have 11 windows to replace, and I don't know how much MTL-CLD would cost. I will definately ask, since I would personally prefer wood (does the wood portion come prefinished, or do I have to paint/stain it?).
I will let you know how it goes. Heck, the estimator may come out, and give us a price over our budget, and I will have to file this away for later use. You never know.
i don't think metal-clad was much (if any) more than vinyl-clad. are you considering all vinyl?
if that's the way you've got to go to get the job done, they're fine. quality is usually not as high and you'll be frustrated within 5yrs by little things breaking like latches and stops, but these things don't compromise the thermal performance, just the ease of operation.
always hard to judge (especially given current energy prices) whether waiting could be better than buying the lesser product...
i don't know how big your windows are but ours - about 18"-24" wide by 36"-42" tall - cost between $250 and $350 each (2006 dollars). the bigger part of the cost was the carpenter's install, something not affected by the type of window you get.
if you get metal- or vinyl-clad wood, the interior wood is unfinished and does need to be painted or stained.
let your estimator know that you don't want dividers (if that's the case). if you let him know in advance that no grilles, true- or false-divided lights are necessary, it might save you some money. and those things are ugly anyway.
Sarah,
I'm in the process of replacing my windows and found that the Pella alum clad wood windows were more economical than the vinyl/PVC replacement windows.
Argh, I HATE replacement windows, so I'm tearing the old window out down to the RO and putting in all new.
From my research Eagle (Andersen's premium line) are the best available around my area but come at a hefty $$$. Andersen's are vinyl clad which was a deal breaker for me. To my knowledge Marvin uses a fiberglass cladding....they say it isn't vinyl and it isn't aluminum. Didn't look at the Big Box brands like jeld-wen or peachtree. Pella also gives a decent architect/designer discount. Call the rep. Just stay away from their cheap line sold at Lowe's.
Speaking of full wood windows, I'm pulling 40-50 year old full wood casements. Of course the efficiency of the glass is far better these days, but unfortunately the previous owners didn't maintain the wood. I hope the refinish the wood and salvage the windows for a cottage a family member is building. Nothing beats old wood.
we used Albertini (italy) windows
beautiful but pricey
curious to know how y'all feel about the various operation mechanisms of windows... spring-loaded, etc... the vinyl sashes in my apartment seem to stay up via friction only and let me tell you, that does NOT hold very long. as most of my experience is in wood windows, i'm not familiar with this friction jamb concept... any one have any thoughts on operability?
aren't double hung wood windows also spring loaded? or am i transposing two different windows from when i was growing up?
steven, who paints wood?!?
we painted ours white. really, have you seen the quality of the wood you get in these windows? (any brand.) it's not great: yellow/greenish/white and soft. you can dent it with your fingernail. it hardly deserves to be stained.
uhmm unless you want to do Argon sealed windows, you could pretty much make them yourselves. Okay not yourself but have a joiner do it. Please note I said joiner, not carpenter. Especially if you want to keep the windows all looking the same or aiming for a sustainable product. And it doesn't necessarily have to be expensive. But I suspect in a location with standards that can only be achieved by "registered" companies having the energy rated would be difficult.
For anybody considering replacing windows, I urge you to think a little longer term:
Now, you might not live in your house long enough to need to replace your windows again, but somebody will have to. From one study I found in the UK, PVC lasts 24 years, and wood and aluminum lasts 40, typically. Those are real numbers from real windows, not manufacturer data.
Anyway, those PVC windows will need replacement in about 20 to 25 years, while your wood windows are good for probably another two decades, give or take. That means that while those wood windows are going strong (for you or somebody else), the first set of PVC windows now sits in a landfill. The ONLY benefactor here is the PVC window manufacturer.
If your current wood windows aren't completely rotten, you can improve their thermal performance up to a level nearly indistinguishable from new windows by simply caulking, weatherstripping, and adding a storm window, which is typically much cheaper than any replacement.
slantsix - just tell everyone to go out and watch Blue Vinyl. You don't need to preach to me the evils of PVC. I refuse to live in a "plastic" house.
hahaha! I hadn't thought of that. But people should definitely see the movie.
My gf is on a low-level crusade to rid our house of anything plastic that holds food. So, stainless steel and glass containers for us. Expensive on a student budget, but i think in the long term it's probably the right way to go.
hmmm - I was going to suggest thermal skin which is a film you place over glazing to increase its insulating value. But after your comments about Blue Vinyl I think I need to check if its made of acrylic or plastic before doing so. But I have never spec'd pvc for a window ever and don't plan to do so! However we use alot of pvc for plumbing and the alternatives seem to cause cancer, break down rapidly or are brutally expensive.
yes slantsix i am trying to do the same vis-a-vis plastic containers! it's actually working pretty well for me -- i just bring lunch to work in my regular pottery vessels with saran wrapped covers... it's not like it HAS to be in a fancy leak-proof tupperware or something.
holz, historically wood double-hung windows were hung on weighted chains, hidden in a weight-pocket at the jambs. all the original double-hung (and actually even single-hung, come to think of it) windows i saw in boston were of this type. i'm sure there were other ways to do it back then but that's all i ever saw. not sure when this went out of fashion; for my money it is still by far the smoothest and most pleasurable method of operating a window. (I HATE HATE HATE fighting against the friction of my vinyl friction-jambs all the time!) With weighted-chain sashes, you can just reach over with your arm at any ole angle -- without having to worry about torque on your elbow, if you know what i'm talking about (think of when you are sitting on a couch and want to open the window behind it -- and you try to just reach back and open it up, but you can't get enough strength to overcome the friction from where you're sitting -- you have to get up, lean over the couch, and heave, correct?) well with a weighted chain, all you have to do is shove a TINY bit up, and then the momentum of the weight helps you glide the window into place, where it stops. So once you overcome the small initial friction, you don't have to keep on heaving. Sooooo pleasant and smooth! Oh I miss them. This is what I will install in my house hands down. Assuming I am rich of course.
Ok, well, since you all were so kind to help me out on this, I thought I'd let you know how it went last night.
The guy showed up right on time, his name was Jack, I think. He only sold vinyl windows, somehow I guess I missed that. He showed us three options, Standard(double glass, and low e, SHGC of .30 or lower - I cant remember), their Marqui (bigger frame, styrofoam insulation, and three panes of glass with low e, SHGC of .17) and then the Marqui with only two panes of glass. He told us we could save money by turning our Dining area window from two mulled together windows into a single Casement window, and then gave us pricing.
The Standard would be about 41-4200 installed, and he would include an extra layer of low e on the West windows. The most expensive option was about 6200.
I asked about lifespan, and he said 50-75 years. I was a little confused, but thought maybe what you all were talking about was the latches and looks, and not the actual window, when you said 25 years.
I also asked about off-gassing, and he thought I meant out-gassing, which I had no idea about. He assured me that the Argon would not leak from their windows because of extra seals, and such. The windows will come with a lifetime garuntee as long as we own the home.
Husband said "Get them."
So now, I'm to call the Attic people about a Radiant barrier estimate.
I'm still concerned about chemicle fumes, ect, and that poor little Abram won't develope properly because we wanted some new windows. Maybe, if I keep the house open for a few days? Husband says that the windows will be built from stock, and not freshly made vinyl, so it'd be ok. They would've off gassed at the factory. I hope he's right.
Mostly your husband is right, but the PVC will degrade over time regardless. Some PVC windows use lead as their UV stabilizer, and others don't.
I don't want to scare you too much - we all live with these products and we're all fine, right?
To be clear, though - all windows have pros and cons. Ultimately, we all have to make these choices ourselves, but if you're given the option to choose, I feel it's better to make an informed decision.
Having said that, I want you to read this summary, which, if you're interested, links to the full report:
http://www.healthybuilding.net/pvc/ThorntonPVCSummary.html
Sarah - I wouldn't worry about the off gassing of the vinyl on a window frame. It's a relatively small amount. Just be sure to make sure your house gets plenty of fresh air. Getting brand new wall to wall carpeting is where I'd get concerned.
Sounds like you had a salesman over. Have had plenty of those people knock on my door. The 50-75 years thing makes me laugh. No vinyl in the sunlight will last much over 25 years. It fades/yellows and becomes brittle. And argon does leak from windows...no seal will be perfect forever, but chances are the vinyl will fail before that.
Can't fault you on the price. $4200 sounds very reasonable. Going to a place like Lowes and having them install even the cheapest Pella or Peachtree windows would probably more than double that price.
Slant, that report is scary, overwhelming, and defeating. We don't use plastic containers for food, and try to keep away plastic toys, but there isn't much to be done about other things. The best I can do, is keep the windows open when the weather permits, to air out the house, and make sure Abe plays outside when he gets older.
4200 total??! I hope not each????
I know all the green-ies are gonna kill me for even suggesting this, but are you SURE you need double-paned low-e? Even in Boston we used to recommend that if your house is tight (you are repointing the masonry, and you have fully insulated exterior walls and no noticeable air leaks or cold bridges), you'd probably be fine with single-panes. You do obviously lose some heat through the glass, but you also NEED a little movement in your airflow, and frankly if the rest of your house is tight and you pay attention the WEATHERSTRIPPING (VERY IMPORTANT) you're probably fine with single-panes. This of course was always an issue with historic homes -- which are way harder to keep tight -- but STILL we never had a complaint. I read later that the main culprits in building heat loss is poor insulation and inadequate weatherproofing (weatherstripping, caulking at joints, masonry pointing, etc.) and that the window pane heat loss was minimal compared to these.
As you are in Texas, not New England, I would imagine you might be able to find some savings there. Just a thought. Ok everyone get ready to dump on me...
Manta, our heat gain through the windows has to do more with the cracks, poor frames, ect, but you can harldy get single pane windows down here. The sun gets very hot in these parts, they're saying 98, but an index of 103 in the shade today, so radiant heat is a huge issue.
Unfortunately, our house is not tight. It was built in 1981, on expansive clay, so, we have a bad foundation problem. Its not really something we can fix, the peirs and such just make it worse. So, we have cracks in the walls, and the doors dont close, and the plates move, but oh well. We figure, if we replace the windows, so they will be functional, and operable, when it does cool down, in october, we can open them (yeah!). And, if we instal the radiant barrier in the attic, and add more ventilation up there - we have 1 turbine for the whole attic - then that will help a bunch as well.
manta - I'm really surprised you'd suggest single plane windows these days. The upcharge for double glazed low-e isn't that much and the u-value is drastically lower. Maybe in some parts of California where they have a very temperate climate with minimal heating and cooling costs, but even then. I've actually considered importing windows from Canada as their climate has forced them to make some very good triple glazed windows that seem to beat anything available in the US. Adding insulation to walls/ceiling is relatively easy and cheap. Buying new windows is not.
Sarah - I feel for you on that expansive TX soil. Many times have I heard people cursing that stuff. In the houston area the houses generally float on 12" thick foundation slabs. From what I've noticed that works ok, but I'm not sure I'd try that in northern TX where there is a bigger frost risk. Since I'm very aware of the TX climate and how you rarely get a chance to open the windows have you condered getting a whole house air exchanger? A little pricey but I found it well worth the money to keep the air fresh in my house through the dead of winter. I imagine it would be equally worthwhile for a TX summer.
The best thing about our house's ineffeciency is that we've gotten used to 83 degree heat, indoors, so, come October, we will be able to open the windows without issue. And, since our house was built in '81, it has great cross-ventilation. I swear, if you open the back bedroom windows, and the garage door on the opposite end of the house, its like a wind tunnel, even to the point that the wind gets annoying and uncomfortable.
And, yes, our house, as all the houses in N.Texas, is simply slab on grade. You're lucky if you get a bed of sand beneath it. When I built my house, I will either choose a location with bedrock, or spring for a waffle slab sort of deal. Or, Maybe I just won't put in a floor. Pier and beam? Who knows.
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.