My client takes my plans, draws over top of them and brings them back telling me what to do different. Not just suggestions or personal concerns, mind you, but more "this is the way it has to be, now draw it like that".
I'm young and so I don't have a reputation or that much experience to back me up....but I still feel like I should be able to say "no, I won't do x,y,z because x,y,z fucks up the rest of the design" and the client should accept that as valid opinion. He doesn't really listen at all when I try to voice my concerns.
I feel like just playing the waiting game....I don't HAVE to draw anything and if I hold out, maybe they'll change their mind.
Anyone have similar experiences and how did you deal with them?
i feel your pain.
probably wrong clients.., but sometimes you need the work.
I am young and have the same issues. I am sure you know you have a responsibility to more than just them...you also have a responsibility to the community , future users of the property, the mean property values on the street, and other jurisdictions of the environment surrounding the project. Perhaps relying on this "Professional Dut" may empower you to not bide by the clients whim as much
the bigger danger is loosing money by the constant revisions that have nothing to do with the design. it's time to either stop drawing and discuss with the know-it-all how all his changes are costing him money for your time. Or just send him a bill for additional services.
some battles are worth fighting. others really don't mater. chalk this one up for an education of clients to avoid in the future and just hope you make a profit on this job.
i love it when the clients think the can play designer just because they can draw some crude plan views...
i've had this experience in our office. after exchanging ideas with some schematic drawings...the client eventually faxed us some hand drawn plans of the bathroom (wow...with notes and leader lines too!). first of all it wasn't to scale...second, it looks like it'll work in plan but doesn't work in elevation. the clients obviously didn't think about cabinet doors and drawers being in conflict with each other and general space planning. what we did was make drawings showing drawings hitting each other, lack of elbow room, etc...
generally when a client is really hands on, we'll do an option using their ideas as a way of showing respect for their role and then another option based on our ideas. Frequently they will realize they became overly fixated on their ideas and will see the validity of our approach. Especially if our approach saves them money or time...
This subject is always a tough call. Is it your ego that is causing your frustration, or is it honest professional ethics. If an experienced client tells me to do something, I am going to do as he asks if certain conditions are met.
First it has to be buildable under his budget and meet code. I will speak my case if it is not the best way to do something but at some point you have to realize it is HIS building. We all would like to be little Frank Lloyd Wrights designing our latest whim, but that is not what the business of architecture is about.
If what he is asking me to draw physically does not work or meet code then we have a problem. A good example is a client who doesn't understand scale, trying to fit a building on a lot that just won't hold it. I will be firm in keeping some minimum standard of professionalism. It really depends on the situation. If you just don't like what he is drawing or you just think you could do better, than you are going to lose lots of clients. Half of being a good architect (or any other professional person) is convincing people that your way is best. Remember all those juries in school, they were for a reason.
You do have to charge more for excessive changes, it is only fair. If you have more work than you need, then consider firing the client, but remember that next year you might not have so much work. I have lost a few clients that I wouldn't back down to, and also gained the respect of a few that I was brutally honest with. If you don't want your name on something don't do it, but also realize that compromising can be a good thing. It isn't bad to accept others ideas, it shows some maturity and self confidence to learn when to agree with others.
I should preface this by saying I haven't even been accepted by arch school and have a non-arch bachelors.
However, the BS I do have is in business. Does it feel like this guy is a wanna-be designer dying to express himself, or is he walking all over you? From the perspective of someone that's worked with finance & RE types for a while, i smell a little 'turf war' mentality.
Do you need this client? Can you afford to drop him? one thing I find with my brief, year-long observation of architects is that many just don't demand their due. If you can't produce a building that you can add to your portfolio proudly with this person, at least get paid. Developers make obscene amounts of money for half the sweat & tears architects put out.
I am 26. But I am interested to see how pros react to these questions... (spark's response seems extraordinarily professional)
People hire professionals for a reason: they are (supposed to be) experts in their field. If hire me, and you can't recognize that, then you are either a control freak, a sadist, or shouldn't have hired me in the first place because you for some reason don't trust me or my skills. You can honestly give me all the input that you want, but don't tell me how to do my job, or tell me what to draw.
Are you going to go in and tell a doctor how to operate on you? or a lawyer how to build a case for you? or a teacher how to teach you?
come on dun be bias, architect shall take comments from any parties... if ur client as a developer been building houses all his life and u juz some green students right out from school, may be there are things to learn from ur clients...
or talk to ur senior to get some professional advice.
try to understand the reasons he has for making the changes. don't be confrontational. i had a similar problem when i was handling a small residential project largely on my own as an intern. the client had had an earlier house designed by the same office and had walked all over the guy who was handling that project so that was what he was used to. i would ask him the reasons for the changes he'd make and if they were good i'd say so to him and thank him. then i progressed to making counter suggestions based on the reasons he'd give for the changes and openly discussing the alternatives. after i began to understand the way he thought and what he wanted, i started to come up with constructive alternatives and would manage to convince him about what i was doing. after that we were able to have very stimulating discussions and i actually enjoyed my meetings with him and the resulting building. i find that the way studio instructors tend to attack student designs make a lot of architects very posessive about their designs and very defensive about any discussion on it. it is a pity.
What client doesn't drive the design? Granted, I've never had one that was so crass to redline the drawings, but, this is nothing new. Part of the reason I went from a designer role to PM role. Was just sick that my design was always ruined by the client.
Once was doing a school building for a small rural town. Designed a great little brick building. School board asked why I used brick on all sides because "my house only has brick on the street side." Of course I talked about quality of the material, durability, so on. In the end, they wanted steel siding on the non-public sides "like their houses." So...it could be worse.
if you are registered I can see this as a professional conflict, otherwise the client/GC is treating you like on of his tradesmen. To be accurate is appears that your client/GC really wants a architectural techinician/draftsman. It might be best - the next time he makes those kinds of comments (personally I see this as the best move to preserve your professional integrity) that his needs might best be met that way
Knock - "turf war" as in he is pushing into the designer's turf (design), the same point you were making later on. It's in common usage where I live I didn't think to check wikipedia- apparently our understanding of the metaphore is more general than everyone else's. Sorry to confuse.
It's important to remember that we're often hired not because the client values what we offer but because the law says the drawings must be stamped by a licensed professional.
Some clients despise this requirement and really don't see the need. I observe the behavior you describe much more often with such individuals.
This issue is all about client selection - don't work for prople who don't "get" what you do - you're not ever going to change their attitudes and life's too short to put up with this BS.
not to be a jerk, but i'd say that it sounds like your inexperience is probably partly to blame. it's very easy for a knowledgable client to bully the design process if they feel that you, as a professional are not demonstrating a thorough understanding of the constraints or issues related to your design decisions. basically, you as a professional must demonstrate adequate knowledge about the means and methods to push the design beyond the ordinary. it might be time to read up on these things and listen to what the client is saying, incorporate it into your thinking, question what they are saying and why...then propose ways they can push their thinking to incorporate more design once you have a thorough understanding of the process. if you feel you can't do this or that it's too much... it might be time to go into an environment where you can be mentored more and become more confident in your own knowledge....
Although not a similar situation I did a number of simple townhouse / MF units for a particular client and had to deal with a number of young aggressive development managers who "value engineered the crap out my designs over about a four year period. It was painful to sit through edit sessions when they had to appeal to budget concerns of their bosses and change / revise / strip down my design work. It was painful but I also learned a ton about making stuff work in a straightforward fashion and learned how to do really efficient design work that was bomb proof from future value engineering types.
Difficult to sit through but I still think about critical dimensions every time I am doing a market housing product. Basic stuff but good stuff to know.
Don't you just love clients. I had one come to me today telling
me how much it was going to cost to add this little bay window
action in the Living room and Master Bedroom. I looked him square
in the eye and said the selling price will be far better with the bay than without it. He countered but the forming of the concrete and the taping of the drywall...it all cost more. I countered again, you think not adding a little drama to the project might make it the unit
sell faster. I told him what he would be carrying on the loan would
most likely be off set by a couple months of inactivity on the unit.
He came around. Then he says do we need so many windows in
the Master Bedroom? I said I will work on it...thinking in the back of my mind....what the hell architecture is architecture...is architecture.
I should have designed him a war bunker...and he would be happy.
Ok, this discussion is starting to make me laugh a bit. If we as a profession designed our projects to be in budget in the first place, there would be much less value engineering. I don't know about you, but some of the developers I have worked with are very savvy and smart. They are very aware of the balance of building a design that is aestheticly pleasing yet affordable.
Developers have many projects in many different states and are juggling money all over the place to keep things working. If they say they can only afford so much then you better design to that. I like to think of an architect as the leader of a design TEAM. Nobody likes to have their pet ideas shot down, but thats just the way it is. If you know it all, maybe you should start a design/build/development firm.
If the client is abusive and unreasonable, then find a way to end the business relationship. But if you really want to be succesfull, you will get more quality buildings built if you learn to bend. We as a profession are not all that respected sometimes for good reason. I don't want to hire a professional to be told what to do with no questions asked, I've seen the quality of work of to many "experts" to know that you shouldn't accept everything presented to you.
JsBach makes some valid points above that deserve careful attention.
You can't approach this topic with the mentality of a "victim" - all of this can be managed if you just set your mind to solving the problem instead of whining.
As has been stated above, you can find better clients. You can do a better job of presenting or selling your ideas. You can earn an mantle of credibility - credibility doesn't come automatically with your degree, you know - that will dimish this problem over time.
I read posts here all the time where architects complain about getting no respect - almost always, such posts look elsewhere for both the cause and the solution to that problem.
Wake up people - take personal responsibily for your own problem(s). We're supposed to be professionals here - let's start acting like professionals! Let's start being grownups!
i just learned yesterday that said client took some of my drawings to the metal fabricator and changed (drew over, once again) all the details without telling me
now tell me that that is my fault
I just want to have a normal architect-client relationship, not one where he does things behind my back. That's all.
btw.....one of the changes was actually for the better. I'm not arguing that I know everything. but he has a responsibility to contact me about these changes, no?
Free Ramos and Compean: hope you got an engineer on board!
I feel bad for brut. I hope he makes it work. I will assume he cannot quit the project. As an unlicensed freelance designer, I've been graced with great clients (except for one case). But the Architect with whom I did my internship had a guy just like this. He was designing his house. Told me a 25 page fax would come in at 4 AM and he'd be calling at 8 AM asking "Have you redrawn it yet?" He quit the project. BTW the guy's job was later discovered to be a professional engineering expert witness. He later sued the builder, the building inspectors, and the state, precipitating a huge legal change in the building codes of our state. If ya gotta stick it out, just make sure the "it" isn't a necessary appendage :)
quizzical - great comments. I tried to send an email thru the forum to you but your old ar***@***.com address is dead. Could you PM me please? Thanks.
Feb 23, 08 7:25 pm ·
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know-it-all clients...
My client takes my plans, draws over top of them and brings them back telling me what to do different. Not just suggestions or personal concerns, mind you, but more "this is the way it has to be, now draw it like that".
I'm young and so I don't have a reputation or that much experience to back me up....but I still feel like I should be able to say "no, I won't do x,y,z because x,y,z fucks up the rest of the design" and the client should accept that as valid opinion. He doesn't really listen at all when I try to voice my concerns.
I feel like just playing the waiting game....I don't HAVE to draw anything and if I hold out, maybe they'll change their mind.
Anyone have similar experiences and how did you deal with them?
yeah - do that and you'll get fired from the project.
your main problem is that you have the wrong cent(s)
"client(s)" - sorry
its his money, let him f it up. only speak up if there becomes a code issue...
I don't think I can get fired. its a weird relationship
basically, he acts as the gc so I can do whatever I want in the drawings and he'll do whatever he wants in the built project.
treekiller.....
his money, my design.
I think I'm too idealistic and eager to get a good project under my belt but I'm tired of caving to weak client suggestions
i feel your pain.
probably wrong clients.., but sometimes you need the work.
I am young and have the same issues. I am sure you know you have a responsibility to more than just them...you also have a responsibility to the community , future users of the property, the mean property values on the street, and other jurisdictions of the environment surrounding the project. Perhaps relying on this "Professional Dut" may empower you to not bide by the clients whim as much
the bigger danger is loosing money by the constant revisions that have nothing to do with the design. it's time to either stop drawing and discuss with the know-it-all how all his changes are costing him money for your time. Or just send him a bill for additional services.
some battles are worth fighting. others really don't mater. chalk this one up for an education of clients to avoid in the future and just hope you make a profit on this job.
i love it when the clients think the can play designer just because they can draw some crude plan views...
i've had this experience in our office. after exchanging ideas with some schematic drawings...the client eventually faxed us some hand drawn plans of the bathroom (wow...with notes and leader lines too!). first of all it wasn't to scale...second, it looks like it'll work in plan but doesn't work in elevation. the clients obviously didn't think about cabinet doors and drawers being in conflict with each other and general space planning. what we did was make drawings showing drawings hitting each other, lack of elbow room, etc...
draw the problems you see...
*showing drawers...
you need to make this client happy. you also need to work on finding clients that fit your practice.
Avoid working for architect-clients.
Everyone is either an Architect or a Frustrated Architect
generally when a client is really hands on, we'll do an option using their ideas as a way of showing respect for their role and then another option based on our ideas. Frequently they will realize they became overly fixated on their ideas and will see the validity of our approach. Especially if our approach saves them money or time...
This subject is always a tough call. Is it your ego that is causing your frustration, or is it honest professional ethics. If an experienced client tells me to do something, I am going to do as he asks if certain conditions are met.
First it has to be buildable under his budget and meet code. I will speak my case if it is not the best way to do something but at some point you have to realize it is HIS building. We all would like to be little Frank Lloyd Wrights designing our latest whim, but that is not what the business of architecture is about.
If what he is asking me to draw physically does not work or meet code then we have a problem. A good example is a client who doesn't understand scale, trying to fit a building on a lot that just won't hold it. I will be firm in keeping some minimum standard of professionalism. It really depends on the situation. If you just don't like what he is drawing or you just think you could do better, than you are going to lose lots of clients. Half of being a good architect (or any other professional person) is convincing people that your way is best. Remember all those juries in school, they were for a reason.
You do have to charge more for excessive changes, it is only fair. If you have more work than you need, then consider firing the client, but remember that next year you might not have so much work. I have lost a few clients that I wouldn't back down to, and also gained the respect of a few that I was brutally honest with. If you don't want your name on something don't do it, but also realize that compromising can be a good thing. It isn't bad to accept others ideas, it shows some maturity and self confidence to learn when to agree with others.
I should preface this by saying I haven't even been accepted by arch school and have a non-arch bachelors.
However, the BS I do have is in business. Does it feel like this guy is a wanna-be designer dying to express himself, or is he walking all over you? From the perspective of someone that's worked with finance & RE types for a while, i smell a little 'turf war' mentality.
Do you need this client? Can you afford to drop him? one thing I find with my brief, year-long observation of architects is that many just don't demand their due. If you can't produce a building that you can add to your portfolio proudly with this person, at least get paid. Developers make obscene amounts of money for half the sweat & tears architects put out.
I am 26. But I am interested to see how pros react to these questions... (spark's response seems extraordinarily professional)
you can sue him for defacing your property (the drawings).
"turf war mentality" sounds misappropriated ... maybe like the new "synergy". i'm not even sure how this term applies to the situation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turf_war
People hire professionals for a reason: they are (supposed to be) experts in their field. If hire me, and you can't recognize that, then you are either a control freak, a sadist, or shouldn't have hired me in the first place because you for some reason don't trust me or my skills. You can honestly give me all the input that you want, but don't tell me how to do my job, or tell me what to draw.
Are you going to go in and tell a doctor how to operate on you? or a lawyer how to build a case for you? or a teacher how to teach you?
come on dun be bias, architect shall take comments from any parties... if ur client as a developer been building houses all his life and u juz some green students right out from school, may be there are things to learn from ur clients...
or talk to ur senior to get some professional advice.
try to understand the reasons he has for making the changes. don't be confrontational. i had a similar problem when i was handling a small residential project largely on my own as an intern. the client had had an earlier house designed by the same office and had walked all over the guy who was handling that project so that was what he was used to. i would ask him the reasons for the changes he'd make and if they were good i'd say so to him and thank him. then i progressed to making counter suggestions based on the reasons he'd give for the changes and openly discussing the alternatives. after i began to understand the way he thought and what he wanted, i started to come up with constructive alternatives and would manage to convince him about what i was doing. after that we were able to have very stimulating discussions and i actually enjoyed my meetings with him and the resulting building. i find that the way studio instructors tend to attack student designs make a lot of architects very posessive about their designs and very defensive about any discussion on it. it is a pity.
Been there, done that: in the end the client pays for his mistakes. As mentioned before: use building regislations to your advantage.
What client doesn't drive the design? Granted, I've never had one that was so crass to redline the drawings, but, this is nothing new. Part of the reason I went from a designer role to PM role. Was just sick that my design was always ruined by the client.
Once was doing a school building for a small rural town. Designed a great little brick building. School board asked why I used brick on all sides because "my house only has brick on the street side." Of course I talked about quality of the material, durability, so on. In the end, they wanted steel siding on the non-public sides "like their houses." So...it could be worse.
if you are registered I can see this as a professional conflict, otherwise the client/GC is treating you like on of his tradesmen. To be accurate is appears that your client/GC really wants a architectural techinician/draftsman. It might be best - the next time he makes those kinds of comments (personally I see this as the best move to preserve your professional integrity) that his needs might best be met that way
Knock - "turf war" as in he is pushing into the designer's turf (design), the same point you were making later on. It's in common usage where I live I didn't think to check wikipedia- apparently our understanding of the metaphore is more general than everyone else's. Sorry to confuse.
It's important to remember that we're often hired not because the client values what we offer but because the law says the drawings must be stamped by a licensed professional.
Some clients despise this requirement and really don't see the need. I observe the behavior you describe much more often with such individuals.
This issue is all about client selection - don't work for prople who don't "get" what you do - you're not ever going to change their attitudes and life's too short to put up with this BS.
not to be a jerk, but i'd say that it sounds like your inexperience is probably partly to blame. it's very easy for a knowledgable client to bully the design process if they feel that you, as a professional are not demonstrating a thorough understanding of the constraints or issues related to your design decisions. basically, you as a professional must demonstrate adequate knowledge about the means and methods to push the design beyond the ordinary. it might be time to read up on these things and listen to what the client is saying, incorporate it into your thinking, question what they are saying and why...then propose ways they can push their thinking to incorporate more design once you have a thorough understanding of the process. if you feel you can't do this or that it's too much... it might be time to go into an environment where you can be mentored more and become more confident in your own knowledge....
ya y not switch places with the client he sounds like a really good designer
Although not a similar situation I did a number of simple townhouse / MF units for a particular client and had to deal with a number of young aggressive development managers who "value engineered the crap out my designs over about a four year period. It was painful to sit through edit sessions when they had to appeal to budget concerns of their bosses and change / revise / strip down my design work. It was painful but I also learned a ton about making stuff work in a straightforward fashion and learned how to do really efficient design work that was bomb proof from future value engineering types.
Difficult to sit through but I still think about critical dimensions every time I am doing a market housing product. Basic stuff but good stuff to know.
Don't you just love clients. I had one come to me today telling
me how much it was going to cost to add this little bay window
action in the Living room and Master Bedroom. I looked him square
in the eye and said the selling price will be far better with the bay than without it. He countered but the forming of the concrete and the taping of the drywall...it all cost more. I countered again, you think not adding a little drama to the project might make it the unit
sell faster. I told him what he would be carrying on the loan would
most likely be off set by a couple months of inactivity on the unit.
He came around. Then he says do we need so many windows in
the Master Bedroom? I said I will work on it...thinking in the back of my mind....what the hell architecture is architecture...is architecture.
I should have designed him a war bunker...and he would be happy.
Ok, this discussion is starting to make me laugh a bit. If we as a profession designed our projects to be in budget in the first place, there would be much less value engineering. I don't know about you, but some of the developers I have worked with are very savvy and smart. They are very aware of the balance of building a design that is aestheticly pleasing yet affordable.
Developers have many projects in many different states and are juggling money all over the place to keep things working. If they say they can only afford so much then you better design to that. I like to think of an architect as the leader of a design TEAM. Nobody likes to have their pet ideas shot down, but thats just the way it is. If you know it all, maybe you should start a design/build/development firm.
If the client is abusive and unreasonable, then find a way to end the business relationship. But if you really want to be succesfull, you will get more quality buildings built if you learn to bend. We as a profession are not all that respected sometimes for good reason. I don't want to hire a professional to be told what to do with no questions asked, I've seen the quality of work of to many "experts" to know that you shouldn't accept everything presented to you.
JsBach makes some valid points above that deserve careful attention.
You can't approach this topic with the mentality of a "victim" - all of this can be managed if you just set your mind to solving the problem instead of whining.
As has been stated above, you can find better clients. You can do a better job of presenting or selling your ideas. You can earn an mantle of credibility - credibility doesn't come automatically with your degree, you know - that will dimish this problem over time.
I read posts here all the time where architects complain about getting no respect - almost always, such posts look elsewhere for both the cause and the solution to that problem.
Wake up people - take personal responsibily for your own problem(s). We're supposed to be professionals here - let's start acting like professionals! Let's start being grownups!
i just learned yesterday that said client took some of my drawings to the metal fabricator and changed (drew over, once again) all the details without telling me
now tell me that that is my fault
I just want to have a normal architect-client relationship, not one where he does things behind my back. That's all.
btw.....one of the changes was actually for the better. I'm not arguing that I know everything. but he has a responsibility to contact me about these changes, no?
It is in your power to do this!
ever had a University for a client? really gotta have some thick skin...
my client thinks he can take out walls but doesn't need new posts/beams to transfer existing loads to the ground
he's a major bean counter - questions everything but understands nothing
oh man
ugh
:(
Free....did you suggest sky hooks to him as they seem like such a client driven solution.
free....
ugh indeed. that seems serious.
Good points, JSBach.
Free Ramos and Compean: hope you got an engineer on board!
I feel bad for brut. I hope he makes it work. I will assume he cannot quit the project. As an unlicensed freelance designer, I've been graced with great clients (except for one case). But the Architect with whom I did my internship had a guy just like this. He was designing his house. Told me a 25 page fax would come in at 4 AM and he'd be calling at 8 AM asking "Have you redrawn it yet?" He quit the project. BTW the guy's job was later discovered to be a professional engineering expert witness. He later sued the builder, the building inspectors, and the state, precipitating a huge legal change in the building codes of our state. If ya gotta stick it out, just make sure the "it" isn't a necessary appendage :)
quizzical - great comments. I tried to send an email thru the forum to you but your old ar***@***.com address is dead. Could you PM me please? Thanks.
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