Whoa....Archinect its been like 2.5 years since my last post. This is what professional life has done to me.
Ok...so i'm looking to recruit some recent grads that understand the fundamental concepts of BIM. What are the top 5 schools that are effectively incorporating BIM into their curriculum?
Just looking for a few ideas on where to start our search.
Good to be back on the board. Hope some of the regulars are still here.
Today I was working with a kid from the AA who was doing some parametric modelling in GC and DP. I didn't ask which course it was that he studied, but they are doing it.
If I were hiring somebody, I'd want somebody who can THINK, which to me is much more important than being able to use some certain kind of software - which can be learned relatively quickly in any event.
I have to say that although I love software of all kinds I totally agree with Antisthenes. To use it in school is one thing, to use it at work is another. Parametric modeling in school is to do sweet, sweet stuff, parametrics at work is for door and window schedules.
Screw "BIM" at work. Just be more diligent at coordination.
"BIM is a fad that has come and gone ... basically it is a way for making more money for corporations."
Not sure I understand where this invective is coming from ... perhaps your firms don't have a clue how to appoach the technology in business setting.
While we're still learning, our firm finds BIM to be much faster and more effective than traditional 2D CAD, plus it provides significant benefits to the design process. And, little of our happiness has been driven by coordination considerations.
Approching 'the technology' in a 'business setting' is exactly what takes the fun out of it. If the tool enhances my design or my design capability, fine, that's how I'll use it. If I'm forced to use it because of its perceived improvement in efficiency (aka, less diligent and precise in coordination) or because the "market demands it," then forget it. It has nothing to do with being a ludite.
Using BIM is like taking the bus when you live 3 blocks from work.
I think the following two quotes are pretty funny relative to one another:
"Screw riding the bus to work. Just be more athletic and run the 30 miles."
&
"Using BIM is like taking the bus when you live 3 blocks from work."
Exactly! You're going to get a higher return on your investment in BIM the larger the project is and more coordination it requires (the 30 miles from work as opposed to 3 blocks from work). If you've ever had to coordinate schedules for a building with 300 rooms and 1000 doors, you'll love using BIM. If you're doing a bus shelter or an art installation, you'll probably prefer using autoCAD (though I wouldn't).
Architecture is a MF'ing business and you're not going to get any business if you're drafting by hand, you know what I mean? And in the future you're not going to get any business if you're not doing a BIM model, especially once all of the structural and MP&E firms make the switch. And especially if clients start buying the BIM model at the end of CD's to manage the full lifecycle of their buildings.
met....I just read your comment....as: the important thing to keep in mind if the amount of chicks or commands or steps it takes to get the end product. Damn my mind is somewhere else today.
even gives you far more benefits in the initial phase. Let alone in DD and CD. But then again, the longer firm postpone to implement BIM the more money i make. So let's stop promoting BIM and keep the profits and better designs for ourselves.
isn't bim about productivity? it is NOT part of the curriculum at my school. i think computers are not trusted here, to be honest, never mind actually using them in sophisticated ways...
I think the real debate should be what size, type and complexity of building is the tipping point to BIM's favor. Ive used bothbut there were times with modeling where I would get stuck for not hours, but days trying to get the program to do a curtain wall or storefront correctly. Hopefully the programs are better now. Plus it killed my ram. So I just adopted the position early on that while it might be good for large hospitals with muach databased information that was always being updated, for a lot of our smaller projects we are much faster on straight up cad and 3ds. Theres also something a little strange about the models revit exports - we seem to get cleaner mapping on solids made in 3ds. Just my 2 cents.
Never use a hammer for a job requiring a screwdriver.
BIM's just a tool - and we have to choose the right tool for any specific job. And, in my estimation, BIM is not necessarily the most effective or efficient tool for delivering either an academic project or a small project - at least at this state of the art.
But, consider the potential to the profession. Not only will BIM evolve into a powerful design tool over time, but it provides a real possibility to improve the economics of professional practice, if we don't squander the opportunity.
Ultimately, clients - especially sophisticated clients - will force the profession to embrace BIM because it will lead to more efficient project delivery and fewer mistakes. Any business that ignores the legitimate needs and desires of its customers is doomed.
BIM, by itself, will not make average designers great designers. But, BIM can help good designers operate more successful practices.
You can fight it or you can embrace it - that's your choice. Our firm has chosen to adopt BIM, even though it's not yet a mature technology. We already can see the benefits it affords our clients, our staff and our firm. We're buying in to the promise.
People who are in charge of a project (i.e. upper management) are the ones who need to understand the fundamental concepts of BIM in order to effectively implement it into the firm's pipeline.
IMO - anyone from a good school should be able to pick up whatever software you are using in a week or two if you have a decent training program in place. If you are relying on recent grads to train you in BIM... well... good luck with that.
I am almost ten years out of undergrad - barch. Did a two year masters program and studied parametrics and cad/cam extensively starting six years ago...I knew the future of "BIM" then as the "digital asset model"...before Revit was bought by Autodesk...started using cad in 1990.
I see some definite insight in this thread (and apologize to OP for hijacking it) but it's a dificult conversation to have in such a forum since our own backgrounds/interests are unknown/complex.
If architecture as a business is for you, then BIM might be your thing. If architecture as craft is for you, BIM still might be for you. If you think BIM is for you but have no idea what BIM is (the "PM CAD Monkey Gap"), then you best leave it alone. What I unfortunately feel is that it is typically the latter...and as an employee caught in the middle of that PMCM/Industry Gap, there are better, quicker, and cheaper solutions without branding a practice as BIM friendly.
If parametric modeling becomes part of your methodology/design (greg lynn), it will stick around and be meaningful. If "BIM technology" is part of your business practice (little) then it will be a trickle down event and will likely not advance architectural discourse (ADT).
From Design Cost Data: Building Information Modeling Takes Architectural Design to a New Demension- Lynn Murray, " "This is the biggest change I’ve seen in architecture in about 40 years. My challenge is to determine what strategic advantage it has in the academic curriculum," said Ken Lambla, AIA, dean of the College of Architecture at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte. "
Interesting, yeah, how people's backgrounds can vary from expectations.
Two things (and yeah, sorry about the hijack, too, but so it goes):
1) I know from experience (delivered two all-Revit DD sets in the past six months), that taking the more mundane issues out of circulation allows the team to think about higher order issues. If you're not tracking and coordinating, you've got the time to o refine basic ideas and let it flow back into the model later. It's not just about being a more efficient monkey.
but ...
2) Any efficiency is going to be a short-lived moving target. As the tide rises, and more practices come online, you're not going to be able to offer lower cost or cooler product.
Spent the weekend in a log cabin in WV...significantly off the grid. Looks like you guys have been having fun. Apparently there are still a lot of misunderstandings out there about BIM.
A bit of clarification. We are currently using BIM. I've been fully engulfed on numerous projects over the past 2 years. I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've even opened AutoCAD. I'll never go back to documenting in traditional CAD, and am really enjoying designing in Revit.
My firm has committed full force. Supposedly 100% of our new projects will be in a BIM software starting this year. It’s so much more than software though. BIM is a methodology that is changing the profession...hopefully for the better.
A few of you hit it spot on...it takes a certain mindset to efficiently and effectively take part in this new methodology. Needless to say we are not looking for grads to train us. New employees will be put through a full training course once they start. We have plenty of resources for that. We are looking for students who have learned to exploit their computers skills efficiently to create a better more informed design because of those skills. Long gone are the days of tedious mundane tasks for interns here. We are seeing younger employees take on more responsibility, and therefore are looking for those that are up for the task.
We need thinkers, not drafters. I’m not interested in pulling from schools that teach software. I’m interested in grads that have a broad understanding of technology and are willing and able to apply it on a daily basis. I’m looking to stay away from schools where “computers are not trusted.” No offense “Jump.”
Just starting looking into NJIT, will look at NYIT as well.
no worries brian. i like computers. my school is very conservative when it comes to them is all. luckily that has little to do with me...but is pity for young students here in japan. best school in japan and you graduate with no choice but to learn everything important in whatever office is willing to take a chance on you...what a waste of an education.
what you describe of a graduate is so alien to japan it is just sad. my partner and i have been talking over where we can find staff when it comes time and we need someone much as you describe, minus the BIM context, and frankly we haven't a clue how we are going to find anyone who can think for themselves...
Have never used BIM except in beta versions back in the 90's...it sounds intriguing. maybe someday when we have budget for software and a large enough project to justify the switch..
it sounds like alot of people's opinions in this thread are solely based on assumptions as opposed to real world experience with the actual software ..
ive used nothing but Revit and Archicad the last two years out of grad school and let me tell you I will never go back to offsetting and 2d drafting when I have the power to literally create in real time the 3d concepts I envision...
its the future, it may not be everyone future, but it really is so much more powerful overall in what you can do as an architect I find it funny how opposed some you are to something that can only extend your skills.
I've been amazed at the improvement I see in my students' projects since they have started using Revit. They are able to visualize volumes much faster and create their documents more quickly and accurately. This means we get to spend more time on process, which makes for higher quality design. I'd imagine this would hold true in an office as well.
Recruiting from colleges with BIM curriculum.
Whoa....Archinect its been like 2.5 years since my last post. This is what professional life has done to me.
Ok...so i'm looking to recruit some recent grads that understand the fundamental concepts of BIM. What are the top 5 schools that are effectively incorporating BIM into their curriculum?
Just looking for a few ideas on where to start our search.
Good to be back on the board. Hope some of the regulars are still here.
I'm afraid you have visited the wrong forum. Rhino and Maya is all what you get here.
Hah ... you think we're going to share that kind of info ... those are the truest form of "trade secrets" in this economy.
Today I was working with a kid from the AA who was doing some parametric modelling in GC and DP. I didn't ask which course it was that he studied, but they are doing it.
I don't know about the US but Hong Kong University and University of Melbourne are using DP. Albeit this is very recent in Melbourne's case.
won't help you too much now, but northeastern is going to start using archicad as their primary modeling/drawing platform in the next year or two.
Do you guys have BIM software in place yet, Brian, or is that part of this process?
I don't like when a school mandates certain software. We could use whatever we damn well wanted - including none at all.
BIM is a fad that has come and gone at several places i have worked
basically it is a way for making more money for corporations
there is a elective you can take on BIM at ASU, i learned at a AIA meeting last week
I don't get it. BIM is a tool for designing.
If I were hiring somebody, I'd want somebody who can THINK, which to me is much more important than being able to use some certain kind of software - which can be learned relatively quickly in any event.
bla bla bla bla
'mindset for using it efficiently'
??
you can probably get your info from the supplier.
i have been teaching it for a year+
LOL ... god, I love this phrase!
I have to say that although I love software of all kinds I totally agree with Antisthenes. To use it in school is one thing, to use it at work is another. Parametric modeling in school is to do sweet, sweet stuff, parametrics at work is for door and window schedules.
Screw "BIM" at work. Just be more diligent at coordination.
"BIM is a fad that has come and gone ... basically it is a way for making more money for corporations."
Not sure I understand where this invective is coming from ... perhaps your firms don't have a clue how to appoach the technology in business setting.
While we're still learning, our firm finds BIM to be much faster and more effective than traditional 2D CAD, plus it provides significant benefits to the design process. And, little of our happiness has been driven by coordination considerations.
Approching 'the technology' in a 'business setting' is exactly what takes the fun out of it. If the tool enhances my design or my design capability, fine, that's how I'll use it. If I'm forced to use it because of its perceived improvement in efficiency (aka, less diligent and precise in coordination) or because the "market demands it," then forget it. It has nothing to do with being a ludite.
Using BIM is like taking the bus when you live 3 blocks from work.
I think the following two quotes are pretty funny relative to one another:
"Screw riding the bus to work. Just be more athletic and run the 30 miles."
&
"Using BIM is like taking the bus when you live 3 blocks from work."
Exactly! You're going to get a higher return on your investment in BIM the larger the project is and more coordination it requires (the 30 miles from work as opposed to 3 blocks from work). If you've ever had to coordinate schedules for a building with 300 rooms and 1000 doors, you'll love using BIM. If you're doing a bus shelter or an art installation, you'll probably prefer using autoCAD (though I wouldn't).
Architecture is a MF'ing business and you're not going to get any business if you're drafting by hand, you know what I mean? And in the future you're not going to get any business if you're not doing a BIM model, especially once all of the structural and MP&E firms make the switch. And especially if clients start buying the BIM model at the end of CD's to manage the full lifecycle of their buildings.
excellent post brer.
met....I just read your comment....as: the important thing to keep in mind if the amount of chicks or commands or steps it takes to get the end product. Damn my mind is somewhere else today.
Amen, brother!
even gives you far more benefits in the initial phase. Let alone in DD and CD. But then again, the longer firm postpone to implement BIM the more money i make. So let's stop promoting BIM and keep the profits and better designs for ourselves.
we use revit 2008 at nyit manhattan (studied as an elective in 3d technologies)
BIM doesn't make better designs. gensler and callison prove that every day.
i don't think that is the point, though...
isn't bim about productivity? it is NOT part of the curriculum at my school. i think computers are not trusted here, to be honest, never mind actually using them in sophisticated ways...
I think the real debate should be what size, type and complexity of building is the tipping point to BIM's favor. Ive used bothbut there were times with modeling where I would get stuck for not hours, but days trying to get the program to do a curtain wall or storefront correctly. Hopefully the programs are better now. Plus it killed my ram. So I just adopted the position early on that while it might be good for large hospitals with muach databased information that was always being updated, for a lot of our smaller projects we are much faster on straight up cad and 3ds. Theres also something a little strange about the models revit exports - we seem to get cleaner mapping on solids made in 3ds. Just my 2 cents.
Never use a hammer for a job requiring a screwdriver.
BIM's just a tool - and we have to choose the right tool for any specific job. And, in my estimation, BIM is not necessarily the most effective or efficient tool for delivering either an academic project or a small project - at least at this state of the art.
But, consider the potential to the profession. Not only will BIM evolve into a powerful design tool over time, but it provides a real possibility to improve the economics of professional practice, if we don't squander the opportunity.
Ultimately, clients - especially sophisticated clients - will force the profession to embrace BIM because it will lead to more efficient project delivery and fewer mistakes. Any business that ignores the legitimate needs and desires of its customers is doomed.
BIM, by itself, will not make average designers great designers. But, BIM can help good designers operate more successful practices.
You can fight it or you can embrace it - that's your choice. Our firm has chosen to adopt BIM, even though it's not yet a mature technology. We already can see the benefits it affords our clients, our staff and our firm. We're buying in to the promise.
People who are in charge of a project (i.e. upper management) are the ones who need to understand the fundamental concepts of BIM in order to effectively implement it into the firm's pipeline.
IMO - anyone from a good school should be able to pick up whatever software you are using in a week or two if you have a decent training program in place. If you are relying on recent grads to train you in BIM... well... good luck with that.
Well said.
And quizzical I hope you are charging the client more...because otherwise it will just be lost on us, like everything else.
Have fun babysitting your model.
eVo, are you still in school?
I am almost ten years out of undergrad - barch. Did a two year masters program and studied parametrics and cad/cam extensively starting six years ago...I knew the future of "BIM" then as the "digital asset model"...before Revit was bought by Autodesk...started using cad in 1990.
I see some definite insight in this thread (and apologize to OP for hijacking it) but it's a dificult conversation to have in such a forum since our own backgrounds/interests are unknown/complex.
If architecture as a business is for you, then BIM might be your thing. If architecture as craft is for you, BIM still might be for you. If you think BIM is for you but have no idea what BIM is (the "PM CAD Monkey Gap"), then you best leave it alone. What I unfortunately feel is that it is typically the latter...and as an employee caught in the middle of that PMCM/Industry Gap, there are better, quicker, and cheaper solutions without branding a practice as BIM friendly.
If parametric modeling becomes part of your methodology/design (greg lynn), it will stick around and be meaningful. If "BIM technology" is part of your business practice (little) then it will be a trickle down event and will likely not advance architectural discourse (ADT).
From Design Cost Data: Building Information Modeling Takes Architectural Design to a New Demension- Lynn Murray, " "This is the biggest change I’ve seen in architecture in about 40 years. My challenge is to determine what strategic advantage it has in the academic curriculum," said Ken Lambla, AIA, dean of the College of Architecture at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte. "
Interesting, yeah, how people's backgrounds can vary from expectations.
Two things (and yeah, sorry about the hijack, too, but so it goes):
1) I know from experience (delivered two all-Revit DD sets in the past six months), that taking the more mundane issues out of circulation allows the team to think about higher order issues. If you're not tracking and coordinating, you've got the time to o refine basic ideas and let it flow back into the model later. It's not just about being a more efficient monkey.
but ...
2) Any efficiency is going to be a short-lived moving target. As the tide rises, and more practices come online, you're not going to be able to offer lower cost or cooler product.
Spent the weekend in a log cabin in WV...significantly off the grid. Looks like you guys have been having fun. Apparently there are still a lot of misunderstandings out there about BIM.
A bit of clarification. We are currently using BIM. I've been fully engulfed on numerous projects over the past 2 years. I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've even opened AutoCAD. I'll never go back to documenting in traditional CAD, and am really enjoying designing in Revit.
My firm has committed full force. Supposedly 100% of our new projects will be in a BIM software starting this year. It’s so much more than software though. BIM is a methodology that is changing the profession...hopefully for the better.
A few of you hit it spot on...it takes a certain mindset to efficiently and effectively take part in this new methodology. Needless to say we are not looking for grads to train us. New employees will be put through a full training course once they start. We have plenty of resources for that. We are looking for students who have learned to exploit their computers skills efficiently to create a better more informed design because of those skills. Long gone are the days of tedious mundane tasks for interns here. We are seeing younger employees take on more responsibility, and therefore are looking for those that are up for the task.
We need thinkers, not drafters. I’m not interested in pulling from schools that teach software. I’m interested in grads that have a broad understanding of technology and are willing and able to apply it on a daily basis. I’m looking to stay away from schools where “computers are not trusted.” No offense “Jump.”
Just starting looking into NJIT, will look at NYIT as well.
no worries brian. i like computers. my school is very conservative when it comes to them is all. luckily that has little to do with me...but is pity for young students here in japan. best school in japan and you graduate with no choice but to learn everything important in whatever office is willing to take a chance on you...what a waste of an education.
what you describe of a graduate is so alien to japan it is just sad. my partner and i have been talking over where we can find staff when it comes time and we need someone much as you describe, minus the BIM context, and frankly we haven't a clue how we are going to find anyone who can think for themselves...
Have never used BIM except in beta versions back in the 90's...it sounds intriguing. maybe someday when we have budget for software and a large enough project to justify the switch..
it sounds like alot of people's opinions in this thread are solely based on assumptions as opposed to real world experience with the actual software ..
ive used nothing but Revit and Archicad the last two years out of grad school and let me tell you I will never go back to offsetting and 2d drafting when I have the power to literally create in real time the 3d concepts I envision...
its the future, it may not be everyone future, but it really is so much more powerful overall in what you can do as an architect I find it funny how opposed some you are to something that can only extend your skills.
I've been amazed at the improvement I see in my students' projects since they have started using Revit. They are able to visualize volumes much faster and create their documents more quickly and accurately. This means we get to spend more time on process, which makes for higher quality design. I'd imagine this would hold true in an office as well.
yes and no
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