To me, Wrigley Field is one of the most beautiful structures on earth.
It's tectonic, it's reductivist, it is predicated on the assembly of happy souls, and as with most great architectural works, they play of light is relevant to most every moment of your experience....unless it's a night game, then it all about he beer and big ten ass.
They tell me you are wicked and I believe them, for I
have seen your painted women under the gas lamps
luring the farm boys.
And they tell me you are crooked and I answer: Yes, it
is true I have seen the gunman kill and go free to
kill again.
And they tell me you are brutal and my reply is: On the
faces of women and children I have seen the marks
of wanton hunger.
And having answered so I turn once more to those who
sneer at this my city, and I give them back the sneer
and say to them:
Come and show me another city with lifted head singing
so proud to be alive and coarse and strong and cunning.
Flinging magnetic curses amid the toil of piling job on
job, here is a tall bold slugger set vivid against the
little soft cities;
Fierce as a dog with tongue lapping for action, cunning
as a savage pitted against the wilderness,
Bareheaded,
Shoveling,
Wrecking,
Planning,
Building, breaking, rebuilding,
Under the smoke, dust all over his mouth, laughing with
white teeth,
Under the terrible burden of destiny laughing as a young
man laughs,
Laughing even as an ignorant fighter laughs who has
never lost a battle,
Bragging and laughing that under his wrist is the pulse.
and under his ribs the heart of the people,
Laughing!
Laughing the stormy, husky, brawling laughter of
Youth, half-naked, sweating, proud to be Hog
Butcher, Tool Maker, Stacker of Wheat, Player with
Railroads and Freight Handler to the Nation.
I think the Spertus institutes's facade is really underwhelming. Evan though it is basically brand new, it already looks really hazy and aged. Total disappointment.
the only complaint I have with the facade is its OVERLY faceted. The facets could be more powerful if it was like 3 folds, not so composed. Tried to hard - but still a great building. I wanted to go to the maps of the holy lands exhibet but they shut it down. Too cotroversial appearantly. So much for openess but thats a nother thread.
OK - Time to unleash the debate: The Elyssian. 70 stories of neo-French Emperial meets Art Deco meets High Strength Concrete. (Camera Phone Images, sorry for the low res)
It reminds me of the Empire state building, I can see it finding it's own place. Some people want the look of Museum Park, Aqua, etc. and some don't. I appears to still have a lot of glazing area, so it should have descent natural light, and I imagine the plans are relatively opened up, so there is probably a reasonable level of flexibility in unit layouts. What is that lower building, a restaurant?
Boutique Retail in the Ground level - maybe restaurant - I dont know - it does have a unique-er- Parisian style motor court which is interesting concept - they do work rather well in St. Germaine district in Paris where ive seen it done - but they tend to be internal not open on one side as this one.
Alright, but the design was still out there. It shows that given the right client and project, he doesn't have to stick with the Elyssian and Park Tower style.
I dont mind luciean - I like erie on the Prak - plus I have a Steel Construction Magazine that showcased it's wind frame - cool project, very modernist pallet of materials and structurally expresive facade. The Engineers deserve accolades on that one - engineer driven design. Love it.
I think there's one particular designer at Lucien LaGrange who is doing the nicer modernist stuff (don't recall his name offhand). But somebody really needs to disable the "ADD FRENCH SECOND EMPIRE CRAP" script on the firm's CAD workstations, though.
if they do it regularly, doesn't that become something of a trademark? is that really so bad? You may not like the French style yourself, but at least it is done well.
who is to say what is appropriate? There is always a struggle between historic and progressive, between local and exotic. The demand, as only it can, proves the value and appropriateness of the design. Some people in Chicago, right now, want to design and live in this building, so it is automatically of it's time and of it's community. That isn't to say that everyone wants this building, or wants it to be built next to them, but they don't have to. We live in a massive city; we can sustain a variety of design concepts. Your case against the building isn't very strong of it's solely founded on you not enjoying the particular aesthetic.
Also: if they do it regularly, doesn't that become something of a trademark? is that really so bad? You may not like the French style yourself, but at least it is done well.
Your two sentences do not connect. Just because one does something all the time does not mean one necessarily does it well. I do, in fact enjoy "French" style in its place (aka in preserved districts of 1800s Paris) but this building is in no way "done well".
The Elysian is nothing but a misplaced piece of pastiche crap. What the hell does badly cobbled-together 2nd Empire (mixed with some kind of odd English tudor eyebrow windows and crowned with a living room picture window cribbed from a 1980s suburban ranch home) have to do with a skyscraper?! Just because you can slap a "mansard" roof 50 stories in the air does not mean you are in any way honoring the style you are supposedly referencing (in order, of course, not to satisfy any desire for beauty, nor to elevate man's soul, but purely to entice money out of the accounts of those who feel they have everything to prove to the world but no taste with which to do it. This architect has borrowed a style associated with "wealth", "history", and "old world" and simply attempted to stretch its vertical elements to reconcile it to the height the developer requires. Does stretching the vertical dimensions of certain elements of 2nd Empire style equal "well done" "French style"? No.
If you were truly interested in building a skyscraper monument to the Second Empire, you'd be better off stacking about 32 courses of the Paris Hotel de Ville on top of each other and forgoing the mansard roof entirely (given that you no longer need to force an impression of height with your building... you already have it.)
Also, Synergy, the point of being a professional in any field is, big surprise, to help educate and lead those who do not choose to be a professional in that field in how things should be done. We are specifically hired to think creatively for people who pay us to do this for them, not to simply satisfy what they already think they want. (Here's another surprise for you: most people do not know what they want. This is why the entire realm of marketing exists. Most people buy things because other people buy things, or because they are told that is what they want, or simply because they don't think anything else is available or exists.) Our job as creative professionals is to show them what else could be available; what else could exist.
It is asinine to say that an architect's duty is simply to "design what the people want"; the whole point is that the people do not know what is even out there to want; that's why we are hired as professionals to do the creating for them. With your kind of reductionist thinking, why should any man seek to elevate himself beyond the natural knowledge he is born with? You are giving equal credit to a babe in the woods as you are to someone who chooses to educate himself further in a given area. Life is not an egalitarian free-for-all, and education is not worthless. We can make value judgments about things, and we can empower our clients to do so as well, by informing them about things they did not know when they walked in the door.
This doesn't mean there aren't perfectly informed people who happen to love the idea of a 2nd Empire skyscraper; I'm sure one or two do exist. But this development is not for those rare people, and we all know it. (If it really were, it would do a better job of actually being Second Empire, for one.) This development is for people who want to associate themselves with a certain look in order to confer its societally perceived status upon themselves, not to educate themselves about art or to aspire to the higher ideals of man or any other laudable goal. Just because people read Danielle Steele or watch the hell out of some Jerry Springer does not mean these objects qualify as Universal Art. You can make a value judgment that places the poetry of Rainer Maria Rilke above the prose of Danielle Steele; if you don't, there is no reason for any of us to strive for any meaning or purpose to life. (And one could say that the purchasers of those Elysian condos understand this fact innately... given as how they themselves seem to recognize some value in a reference to something that was at one point considered High Art.)
It didn't intend to disparage the design professional community. My point was simply that there are many, many buildings in Chicago, and many, many more in construction. These buildings represent architects and clients from a tremendously diverse range of different backgrounds.
I won't argue with you about the appropriateness of different window styles, roofs, etc., nor could I, as I do not have the education and knowledge to do so.
I was attempting to say that it is easy to disregard every building that we don't like as commercially focused garbage that only idiots would consider living in, but it isn't always a fair assessment. I tried to prove this by showing that Lagrange has been involved in other vastly different projects, so maybe his firm isn't all just money grubbing hacks.
In terms of architectural design, I consider myself somewhere half way in between someone with professional design knowledge and a member of the general public, and I get tired of being told everything that I think looks nice is pastiche garbage. I should have done a better job of recocgnizing that this board is primarily for design professionals, so in this context, your frank assessment of the building is appropriate.
There is no appropriate roof except that which shelters us. Mantaray - Im not particularily happy with the design but I dont see it as a bad building. I for one live nearby and it will only make my property value that much more. Apparently 180 units worth of people love it. A developer loved it enogh to put down half a billion dollars. An international hotel chain known for design savy chose it as their Chicago location. Some 5th Ave retailers are eying it as well, they have design knoweldge to?
It might not be yours or mine personal style preference however you have to admit its a pretty building.
i don't have the energy for these arguments anymore. clients never come to architects without having an idea of what they want and many architects/designers would jump at the chance to design any project as either a challenge or a way to meet payroll or to exercise their "creative" muscle. you have maybe a handful of archi's who can give the client anything and the client will take it. but guess what most clients have opinions have done market research have their own "tastes" and "vision" for the future. these people have enormous egos and will get what they want...
the mistake is getting involved emotionally...you care too much. when you can see architecture as a job rather than a calling then you can get over becoming upset when you see what you consider to be architectural blasphemy being erected and can view what you deem an eyesore, as a vehicle that is creating jobs and tax revenue for your city. it will be a place for stock exchange traders, corporate lawyers and bankers to call home. immigrants will begin building a future with the income they will earn landscaping the grounds and squeegeeing the windows.
eventually another highrise will be built that will obstruct your view to the present debacle and with any luck the new building will be just as an unfortunate attempt at dreamweaving as the last one. and then the cycle will begin again...
Theres no dreamweaving involved in getting 70 stories of concrete about 125' square to stand up straight and resist 150 mph wind gusts. When you look at the building that way, what it looks like is not important
o no, it wasn't my intention to imply you shouldn't be concerned with structure, just found it interesting that I've noticed you mention structure in a variety of discussions on here.
Evil grew up fixing bowstring trusses...in existing buildings (among other things)
Hey man - I went fishing with Wolff sunday and I have to send you a pic.
(Crain’s) — With unpaid bills from contractors piling up, construction has stopped on a 206-room hotel in River North being built by a joint venture including Duke Miglin.
This building uses a new type of structural system called a staggered truss design - was one of the more interesting things going on in River North design wise - aestheticly as well as structuraly
Its my understanding it has been on paper since the 50's. Its also been used quite a bit in hospital design in Kentucky, where the engineering firm is located who seems to the expert on it. This is a rather large leap for it to mainstream design - its used in generic or modular hotels also.
Yeah - its not groundbreaking new but it is interesting and finding a place on the shelf of goto systems - and it was certainly new to me.
I hear there is another system or concept but with precast concrete - a building is planned at State St. utilizing a verticle concrete truss and skip floor trusses - meaning each truss is a floor deep and skips every other floor level - very modular. The building will be 10 floors.
Ok that makes a lot of sense, I have only head of it in more generic spaces, not such a design intensive hotel. It looks nice to me. I must be pretty easy to please.
What are the limits of river north? I think there is one interesting sort of triangular shaped building going up, I believe it is residential, not especially tall, but pretty nice looking, from what I can tell. I think it is on Wells or Lasalle.
Aggregate Chicago
To me, Wrigley Field is one of the most beautiful structures on earth.
It's tectonic, it's reductivist, it is predicated on the assembly of happy souls, and as with most great architectural works, they play of light is relevant to most every moment of your experience....unless it's a night game, then it all about he beer and big ten ass.
How poetic - you must have baseball on the brain. Ya I saw you riding home from your PH game in the rain.
I agree - Wrigly is awesome. The Cell isnt so bad either. Esp the new upper deck. Not as happy, more angry.
ah, speaking of poetic:
They tell me you are wicked and I believe them, for I
have seen your painted women under the gas lamps
luring the farm boys.
And they tell me you are crooked and I answer: Yes, it
is true I have seen the gunman kill and go free to
kill again.
And they tell me you are brutal and my reply is: On the
faces of women and children I have seen the marks
of wanton hunger.
And having answered so I turn once more to those who
sneer at this my city, and I give them back the sneer
and say to them:
Come and show me another city with lifted head singing
so proud to be alive and coarse and strong and cunning.
Flinging magnetic curses amid the toil of piling job on
job, here is a tall bold slugger set vivid against the
little soft cities;
Fierce as a dog with tongue lapping for action, cunning
as a savage pitted against the wilderness,
Bareheaded,
Shoveling,
Wrecking,
Planning,
Building, breaking, rebuilding,
Under the smoke, dust all over his mouth, laughing with
white teeth,
Under the terrible burden of destiny laughing as a young
man laughs,
Laughing even as an ignorant fighter laughs who has
never lost a battle,
Bragging and laughing that under his wrist is the pulse.
and under his ribs the heart of the people,
Laughing!
Laughing the stormy, husky, brawling laughter of
Youth, half-naked, sweating, proud to be Hog
Butcher, Tool Maker, Stacker of Wheat, Player with
Railroads and Freight Handler to the Nation.
Bro, I was soaked - my beer was more full when I got home....
Carl Sandburg was Awesome: http://carl-sandburg.com/POEMS.htm
I wonder what Abe thinks of Museum Park
Crystaline Ornamentation?
Current View
I think the Spertus institutes's facade is really underwhelming. Evan though it is basically brand new, it already looks really hazy and aged. Total disappointment.
seriously?
the only complaint I have with the facade is its OVERLY faceted. The facets could be more powerful if it was like 3 folds, not so composed. Tried to hard - but still a great building. I wanted to go to the maps of the holy lands exhibet but they shut it down. Too cotroversial appearantly. So much for openess but thats a nother thread.
OK - Time to unleash the debate: The Elyssian. 70 stories of neo-French Emperial meets Art Deco meets High Strength Concrete. (Camera Phone Images, sorry for the low res)
Thoughts?
Correction - French Second Empire, not empirial.
What debate could there be? It's total crap. Ugh.
It reminds me of the Empire state building, I can see it finding it's own place. Some people want the look of Museum Park, Aqua, etc. and some don't. I appears to still have a lot of glazing area, so it should have descent natural light, and I imagine the plans are relatively opened up, so there is probably a reasonable level of flexibility in unit layouts. What is that lower building, a restaurant?
Boutique Retail in the Ground level - maybe restaurant - I dont know - it does have a unique-er- Parisian style motor court which is interesting concept - they do work rather well in St. Germaine district in Paris where ive seen it done - but they tend to be internal not open on one side as this one.
Let me guess.... Lucien LaGrange? Talk about a one-trick pony.
Lucien LaGrange's X/O Condominiums:
X/O is No Mo - canceled
Alright, but the design was still out there. It shows that given the right client and project, he doesn't have to stick with the Elyssian and Park Tower style.
I dont mind luciean - I like erie on the Prak - plus I have a Steel Construction Magazine that showcased it's wind frame - cool project, very modernist pallet of materials and structurally expresive facade. The Engineers deserve accolades on that one - engineer driven design. Love it.
I think there's one particular designer at Lucien LaGrange who is doing the nicer modernist stuff (don't recall his name offhand). But somebody really needs to disable the "ADD FRENCH SECOND EMPIRE CRAP" script on the firm's CAD workstations, though.
if they do it regularly, doesn't that become something of a trademark? is that really so bad? You may not like the French style yourself, but at least it is done well.
Maybe I'll move to Paris and build a bunch of Prairie Style buildings, and see how appropriate they are to their context.
who is to say what is appropriate? There is always a struggle between historic and progressive, between local and exotic. The demand, as only it can, proves the value and appropriateness of the design. Some people in Chicago, right now, want to design and live in this building, so it is automatically of it's time and of it's community. That isn't to say that everyone wants this building, or wants it to be built next to them, but they don't have to. We live in a massive city; we can sustain a variety of design concepts. Your case against the building isn't very strong of it's solely founded on you not enjoying the particular aesthetic.
I <3 LiG.
Also:
if they do it regularly, doesn't that become something of a trademark? is that really so bad? You may not like the French style yourself, but at least it is done well.
Your two sentences do not connect. Just because one does something all the time does not mean one necessarily does it well. I do, in fact enjoy "French" style in its place (aka in preserved districts of 1800s Paris) but this building is in no way "done well".
The Elysian is nothing but a misplaced piece of pastiche crap. What the hell does badly cobbled-together 2nd Empire (mixed with some kind of odd English tudor eyebrow windows and crowned with a living room picture window cribbed from a 1980s suburban ranch home) have to do with a skyscraper?! Just because you can slap a "mansard" roof 50 stories in the air does not mean you are in any way honoring the style you are supposedly referencing (in order, of course, not to satisfy any desire for beauty, nor to elevate man's soul, but purely to entice money out of the accounts of those who feel they have everything to prove to the world but no taste with which to do it. This architect has borrowed a style associated with "wealth", "history", and "old world" and simply attempted to stretch its vertical elements to reconcile it to the height the developer requires. Does stretching the vertical dimensions of certain elements of 2nd Empire style equal "well done" "French style"? No.
If you were truly interested in building a skyscraper monument to the Second Empire, you'd be better off stacking about 32 courses of the Paris Hotel de Ville on top of each other and forgoing the mansard roof entirely (given that you no longer need to force an impression of height with your building... you already have it.)
Also, Synergy, the point of being a professional in any field is, big surprise, to help educate and lead those who do not choose to be a professional in that field in how things should be done. We are specifically hired to think creatively for people who pay us to do this for them, not to simply satisfy what they already think they want. (Here's another surprise for you: most people do not know what they want. This is why the entire realm of marketing exists. Most people buy things because other people buy things, or because they are told that is what they want, or simply because they don't think anything else is available or exists.) Our job as creative professionals is to show them what else could be available; what else could exist.
It is asinine to say that an architect's duty is simply to "design what the people want"; the whole point is that the people do not know what is even out there to want; that's why we are hired as professionals to do the creating for them. With your kind of reductionist thinking, why should any man seek to elevate himself beyond the natural knowledge he is born with? You are giving equal credit to a babe in the woods as you are to someone who chooses to educate himself further in a given area. Life is not an egalitarian free-for-all, and education is not worthless. We can make value judgments about things, and we can empower our clients to do so as well, by informing them about things they did not know when they walked in the door.
This doesn't mean there aren't perfectly informed people who happen to love the idea of a 2nd Empire skyscraper; I'm sure one or two do exist. But this development is not for those rare people, and we all know it. (If it really were, it would do a better job of actually being Second Empire, for one.) This development is for people who want to associate themselves with a certain look in order to confer its societally perceived status upon themselves, not to educate themselves about art or to aspire to the higher ideals of man or any other laudable goal. Just because people read Danielle Steele or watch the hell out of some Jerry Springer does not mean these objects qualify as Universal Art. You can make a value judgment that places the poetry of Rainer Maria Rilke above the prose of Danielle Steele; if you don't, there is no reason for any of us to strive for any meaning or purpose to life. (And one could say that the purchasers of those Elysian condos understand this fact innately... given as how they themselves seem to recognize some value in a reference to something that was at one point considered High Art.)
Mantaray,
It didn't intend to disparage the design professional community. My point was simply that there are many, many buildings in Chicago, and many, many more in construction. These buildings represent architects and clients from a tremendously diverse range of different backgrounds.
I won't argue with you about the appropriateness of different window styles, roofs, etc., nor could I, as I do not have the education and knowledge to do so.
I was attempting to say that it is easy to disregard every building that we don't like as commercially focused garbage that only idiots would consider living in, but it isn't always a fair assessment. I tried to prove this by showing that Lagrange has been involved in other vastly different projects, so maybe his firm isn't all just money grubbing hacks.
In terms of architectural design, I consider myself somewhere half way in between someone with professional design knowledge and a member of the general public, and I get tired of being told everything that I think looks nice is pastiche garbage. I should have done a better job of recocgnizing that this board is primarily for design professionals, so in this context, your frank assessment of the building is appropriate.
There is no appropriate roof except that which shelters us. Mantaray - Im not particularily happy with the design but I dont see it as a bad building. I for one live nearby and it will only make my property value that much more. Apparently 180 units worth of people love it. A developer loved it enogh to put down half a billion dollars. An international hotel chain known for design savy chose it as their Chicago location. Some 5th Ave retailers are eying it as well, they have design knoweldge to?
It might not be yours or mine personal style preference however you have to admit its a pretty building.
i don't have the energy for these arguments anymore. clients never come to architects without having an idea of what they want and many architects/designers would jump at the chance to design any project as either a challenge or a way to meet payroll or to exercise their "creative" muscle. you have maybe a handful of archi's who can give the client anything and the client will take it. but guess what most clients have opinions have done market research have their own "tastes" and "vision" for the future. these people have enormous egos and will get what they want...
the mistake is getting involved emotionally...you care too much. when you can see architecture as a job rather than a calling then you can get over becoming upset when you see what you consider to be architectural blasphemy being erected and can view what you deem an eyesore, as a vehicle that is creating jobs and tax revenue for your city. it will be a place for stock exchange traders, corporate lawyers and bankers to call home. immigrants will begin building a future with the income they will earn landscaping the grounds and squeegeeing the windows.
eventually another highrise will be built that will obstruct your view to the present debacle and with any luck the new building will be just as an unfortunate attempt at dreamweaving as the last one. and then the cycle will begin again...
Theres no dreamweaving involved in getting 70 stories of concrete about 125' square to stand up straight and resist 150 mph wind gusts. When you look at the building that way, what it looks like is not important
Evil, what kind of work do you do? You seem very interested in structural concerns.
I'm an Architect - structural concerns us too although nowadays you wouldnt know it
o no, it wasn't my intention to imply you shouldn't be concerned with structure, just found it interesting that I've noticed you mention structure in a variety of discussions on here.
Evil grew up fixing bowstring trusses...in existing buildings (among other things)
Hey man - I went fishing with Wolff sunday and I have to send you a pic.
Wow - He looks a lot older now. Havent seen him since I was like 17
vado i think you need to go work somewhere else
(Crain’s) — With unpaid bills from contractors piling up, construction has stopped on a 206-room hotel in River North being built by a joint venture including Duke Miglin.
link
This building uses a new type of structural system called a staggered truss design - was one of the more interesting things going on in River North design wise - aestheticly as well as structuraly
is staggered truss really new? I've personally never worked on a design with it, but it i've been hearing about it for quite awhile now.
Its my understanding it has been on paper since the 50's. Its also been used quite a bit in hospital design in Kentucky, where the engineering firm is located who seems to the expert on it. This is a rather large leap for it to mainstream design - its used in generic or modular hotels also.
Yeah - its not groundbreaking new but it is interesting and finding a place on the shelf of goto systems - and it was certainly new to me.
I hear there is another system or concept but with precast concrete - a building is planned at State St. utilizing a verticle concrete truss and skip floor trusses - meaning each truss is a floor deep and skips every other floor level - very modular. The building will be 10 floors.
^ Kentucky or Tenn - I forget which one
Ok that makes a lot of sense, I have only head of it in more generic spaces, not such a design intensive hotel. It looks nice to me. I must be pretty easy to please.
bummer... that would have been an interesting project... and lord knows river north needs some...
What are the limits of river north? I think there is one interesting sort of triangular shaped building going up, I believe it is residential, not especially tall, but pretty nice looking, from what I can tell. I think it is on Wells or Lasalle.
lletdown - that hotel is about 75% done! Someone will have to buy and bail it out
That hotel is pretty cool... I hope they're able to finish it.
really??? i had no idea? where is it exactly?
LaSalle and Erie? Um 1 block 2 blocks north of Portilos, behind the Chinese embassy
Syn - you asked what was going in the base at the elysian?
marc jacobs
That's a fitting pick, something appropriate for the neighborhood. Not that it would be, but I'm glad it isn't a CVS or a subway :) .
Where i live there is 2 CVS and 2 Walgreens within a 5 min walk of my front door. Do people really buy that much dish soap and garbage bags?
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