With the whole housing downturn your timing might be a wee bit off. Then again, life's short, go for it.

jefferson

this is how a majority of people brach off on their own. I would try to get some little projects on the side that are manageable. Work on them at night / weekends.

Do this until you have built up enough body of your own work so that you can get bigger jobs...

what aquapura said - i'd be cautious about jumping ship and/or trying to start a practice right now. everything is pretty much pointing towards a recession....
i would however highly suggest starting to moonlight residential projects.

Thanks for the comments.
How have people gotten small residential jobs, in your own experiences?

Working for an experienced architect is an important way to learn the profession. Young architects who go out on their own prematurely often make large and costly mistakes...mistakes that a few more years of experience under the wing of a good firm would have helped them to avoid.

Before taking outside projects, check on your firm's policy on moonlighting. Many firms have a policy against it... primarily because it can put the firm at risk legally.

Before taking outside projects, check on your firm's policy on moonlighting. Many firms have a policy against it... primarily because it can put the firm at risk legally.

although it sounds counter-intuitive, starting a business during a down cycle in the market can actually be a wise move. you're forced to adapt a disciplined approach to your financials and marketing and then (assuming you've survived) when the market picks up you'll be off and running.

on the other hand, if you start during a boom, the overall market forces might be enough to allow you to grow quickly even if you have sloppy practices and then when the inevitable downturn hits you might find yourself unprepared for the necessary sacrifices and you will get slaughtered.

if you take it slow and have a good business plan then this might very well be the time to get started on your own residential practice.

Can eke, or anyone else please enlighten me/us on how exactly moonlighting can put your day job firm at legal risk?

I can understand how a firm would not want an employee to be drawing, talking to contractors / clients during business hours as well as plotting, printing, or using any firm resources for side projects.

But if it is truly done on the side:
- absolutely no use of firm resources
- absolutely no contact with contractors or clients during business hours
- absolutely no use of firm name when dealing with any contractor, client, supplier, building official, etc.
- absolutely no copy/paste of any design element, detail, spec section, etc.

I do understand that during business hours we are extensions of, and representatives our firms

I mean, I guess in a roundabout way, if something was to happen to me, it would effect the firm... Such as, if I go to jail, or get hurt my firm loses out on some productivity for a little while... But I don’t see them telling me I cant go to a bar because of the possibility of driving under the influence.

Once again, I understand why firms don’t want employee's moonlighting - because of loss of "company time" and the potential loss of of an employee. But I do not understand how if I design a house for my friend, my employer could be put at legal risk?

thanks in advance
Or I could be stop being lazy and just look it up myself.

i think i saw something in arch. record Dec. '07 about liability insurance for moonlighting....

What mdler said above is my plan starting in 2009

: aside from the concern that company time and resources might be diverted to personal projects, firms are mostly concerned that your moonlight client might infer that since you work for such-and-such firm, that the firm would stand behind your work -- especially if there were to be a problem down the road and especially if you are not licensed. (note: there have been court cases in the past when this issue has been raised and firms have had to defend themselves from such outrageous claims)

we don't prohibit (or even severly restrict) our staff from moonlighting -- provided they're meeting their obligations to the firm, what they do on their own time is their own business.

however, we do ask that they inform us of moonlight projects they're undertaking before they start -- so we can be sure there's not a professional conflict of interest and so we can remind then that their contract with their client must state explicitly that this work is being done by that individual alone and that our firm does not, and will not, supervise their work or stand behind their work in any way whatsoever.

yes, but is there anything beyond that?
if all parties are in agreement, if there is no mention of the company. and if the moonlighted client does not know the firm for whom i work.

a link you might want to view: http://www.asla.org/land/2006/0424/ethics.html

an excerpt from a Risk Management seminar at the 2007 AIA National Convention -- admittedly advice to employers:

"Moonlighting. Some employees will be tempted to provide services outside of their employment relationship with you. They may forego purchasing professional liability insurance for this “side practice,” and they might not follow your firm’s quality control procedures. In addition, they may not attend to site observation or construction phase issues in a timely manner.

Even if moonlighting employees work on their own time, with their own materials, and without your knowledge, claims arising from their work can implicate you and your professional liability insurance. One meeting at the office, one phone call, one piece of correspondence or fax cover sheet from your office can later be used to implicate your firm.

You can forbid moonlighting, but you must keep your eyes open. It is more realistic to assume that your employees will want to moonlight. You should provide mechanisms to control or even reward such opportunities. You may wish to impose quality control and client selection procedures to be followed in exchange for the firm's willingness to perform such work at reduced rates in special circumstances. You can also reward employees for bringing business to the firm in the form of bonuses or commissions to encourage compliance with firm procedures.

Written employment policies will avoid the risk of misunderstandings. You need to analyze the risk of having your employees working for the general public with or without your knowledge. Friends and family are a risk too, and there are always risks of third party claims for injuries arising out of construction."

All this really means is that your prespective and the employers perspective will not -- and probably cannot -- be the same about moonlighting. You will decide to do what you decide to do -- this is just meant to help you become aware of the issues involved.

re: puddles statement.

i think there is some merit in that line of thinking, i'd just make sure i had a LOT more cash on hand before jumping, and had several marketing options identified.

speaking generally, the risks to you of jumping ship on the precipice of a recession seem greater than the risks of moonlighting. since your firm doesn't do residential, half of the concerns are already off the table...

thanks quizzical, good stuff

these might be work a look also:

Moonlighting's Dark Side

After hours: for employees and their employers, moonlighting has its merits and its perils

Moonlighting Raises Questions of Loyalty

New Side Business

"worth"

I'm coming into this discussion late, but I would like to agree with aquapura and others. I will expound upon what they stated by saying that university (and other institional) clients have a history for being stable. Their income does not directly depend on the economy, they have a better history for paying their bills (on time). Furthermore, institutional projects allow you to work directly with the owner and end-user of the buildings. This is true with single family work but not always the case with multi-family housing.

It is a very rare moonlight project that can stay completely within the private, off-hours time of a full-time employee. Especially during construction administration, it would be difficult, if not impossible to restrict communications to evenings and weekends.

There have been court cases where employee phone/e-mail records were subpoenaed, and attorneys were able to prove that phone calls. e-mails or faxes were made from the contractor and owner to the moonlighting employee at the "day job" firm premises. The attorneys were thus able attach liability to the firm, and to tap into the firm's insurance. This is an especially prized goal for the plaintiff attorney, since few, if any moonlighters carry any insurance whatsoever.

Generally, I think that moonlighting is not a good idea most of the time, unless the project is very small, and the client and contractor very well known and trusted. Most young architects are working hard enough at their day job, and the demands of competently administering an architecture project of any size single-handedly, during evenings and weekends are simply too much for most to handle properly. There is too much that can go wrong, and the stakes are often high... it's a major f-up waiting to happen. I tell you this from painful personal experience.

EKE -- good post!

Been there too EKE! although not an issue during the construction, as it didn't make it that far, but got into a big shit fight over fees and ended up badgering the "crook" of a developer over the phone in the bosses office while he was out a lunch. This was well before cell phones and in hindsight was a total nightmare. I think that was the last moonlighting job I ever did before starting my own office.

I know this type of advice is apt to fall on deaf ears, especially because I know how strong the urge is to get out on your own and design stuff. It's important to keep in mind that when you enter into an agreement to do an architecture project, you'd better be sure you can follow through and give excellent service to your client... or make quite sure that your client has a very realistic understanding of the limits of your ability to provide the services they expect.

In the end, moonlight projects are all too often a pain and a source of high anxiety for the young architect, and not such a great bargain for the client.

If outside work presents itself, far better to bring it to your firm, an excellent way to advance in the company...or get a retainer, leave the firm and go it alone.

I dont know where you are located, but without going into an extensive history (which I probably included in earlier posts), my recent experience says that now is not a good time to go out on your own. We had a design/build company for the last 4 years or so and are currently tying up loose ends and now working for other people (started out with three partners, myself, my husband and a friend).

Unless you have a large network of friends with real money to spend who might be doing projects in the future, or a constant source of referral work (from a previous employer or contractor), the projects you are liekly to get will be small, annoying, probably uninteresting (sorry to be so negative but years of kitchens, bath and room additions will do that to you) and not very financially rewarding. We got lucky and got a few larger projects at the beginning, none of which have yet led to anything else large. We got many calls for very small remodels on which we made no money, for clients varying from very picky and crazy to very nice and interested in design. but in the end, small remodels are small remodels even with great clients, and we just couldn't make a living that was worth the trade off in the type of work.

We worked all the time, worried constantly about cash flow, and it's fairly stressful even if the project goes smoothly. I think both my husband and I are finding it a lot more comfortable to work for other people. It is slightly depressing to know that it will probably be impossible to go out on our own again, but liberating in a way because we know doing projects for ourselves so far is the most rewarding (we bought a very small shack house and have slowly been adding to the compound, remodelling etc.). We're trying to figure out a way to be able to do more of our own projects while working for other people who we at least respect and who don't ask us to work crazy hours.

I know it sounds negative, but I can't stress enough that clients dont just appear, even if you work hard at it and do a good job. We are in an affluent area (LA), have a fair number of contacts, professionally and socially, spent a lot of time on marketing (mainly websites, mailers, signs) and had a couple of reliable referral sources, and still with the market downturn for the last year or so we only have gotten calls for very small projects. We are in a fairly competitive market, if you're somewhere that doesn't have a lot of residential architects or a lot of people doing modern design and that's what you want to do you might have better luck, but we've seen that the people we know who have done what we have with success either started about 10 years earlier, when the building costs were a lot lower and there were fewer smaller offices (after the recession of the early 90s), or they have deep personal pockets and great connections. if you have a spouse earning significant income and/or you're willing to live like a student on a meager income, you could give it a go, but I now think it takes at least 10 years to build up a good practice and it's not realistic for most people to put off being able to really support themselves for that long.

other opinions??

well put R.A.

i know and work with folks who have been similar situations as yourself. working with someone who has had their own office, and now works for someone else can bring a lot to their new employer and coworkers. sometimes it can be difficult to get a clear communication with the "boss" (out golfing 3-4 days/wk, etc.), but someone who has been the boss, might have a better insight on what is really going on. you are spot on when mentioning that essentially all it takes to have an office are really deep pockets (be it the clients, yours, or your spouse...)

Jefferson, is there someone in the office you work in who has been in a similar situation to R.A.?

RA is quite correct It seems far too often people are very naive about how difficult it is to develop a work stream that delivers "real" projects that can actually sustain and grow a practice. Its not just covering a monthly salary, typically your dealing with first time home builders / renovators who just want cheap plans and don't care about the "Architecture". Its tough and if you don't have a thick skin and prepared to look for work every day stay where you are.

Over the years I 've talked with many very successful principles who have said that once your office gets to a certain size its drudgery, the burn rate is enormous as are the responsibilities. Can it be satisfying, and the financial reward can be better than working for somebody else but waking at 4:30 am and staying awake in a cold sweat the rest of the night worrying is no fun either, I'm not kidding)

whistler, emaze and RA all speak from demonstratable experience in the profession. it can be very hard to own and lead a firm. there is a lot of responsibility that goes with that role. it's hard work and truly not something that everybody will want to undertake, or enjoy, if they do decide to go that route.

however, let me also say that when it's working, it's truly wonderful. it's great to provide employment to a group of talented professionals. it's great to have a stable of satisfied clients and a portfolio of completed work of which you are proud. it's nice to make a decent living.

but, as they say, it doesn't just happen because you hang out your shingle. a certain amount of success in this profession is luck. but mostly it is about having a breadth of credible skills to offer, having clients who appreciate and are willing to pay for those skills, demonstrating a determination to succeed and a maintaining a willingness to undertake a LOT of hard work.

while important, being a good designer is not, in itself, enough to guarantee a firm's success. in the long run, having good people skills and some flexibility in attitude probably are significantly more important to creating a successful firm.

if you don't support a family, have student loan or consumer debt, or have high material demands in life -- and if you're comfortable with a significant decline in your salary, at least in the short term -- perhaps try finding a job with someone else who does residential work. multifamily isn't going anywhere, especially if it's rental. and those who can and want to, will still be building their own homes. spec single-family is taking the brunt of the economic hit.

spend at least a year doing this type of work. volunteer to start at the bottom of the firm, no matter how demeaning that may seem. learn, learn, learn. make contacts with all the contractors, engineers, and craftsmen you meet.

and most of all: save up money. the job won't pay much, but you'll find that saving is its own reward, and you'll get disciplined by living below your means. this will come in handy for when you have to ride out rough patches as your own boss.

if you are supporting a family, if you do have loans, and/or if you do have consumer debt -- you need to get out a calculator and see if you're prepared for the hit. the larger the firm, the larger the projects, the larger the salary. i can attest to this from experience.

What if your goal is to remain a true sole practitioner, with an office of one (or maybe two at the most.) It seems like the point at which a lot of stress happens is when you take on employees, and suddenly a set of families other than your own are relying on you to bring the bacon. You have to deal with hiring and firing and personalities, etc.

What are the rewards and pitfalls of the "Glenn Murcutt" model of solo practice?