well, I just went through this same exercise and found that a Dell pc was vastly less expensive than a comparably spec'd iMac. really wanted to go the Apple route, but the economic premium made no sense to me.

The way it works is that you divide your hard-drive into two partitions. You install windows on one, and osx (the mac operating system) on the other. Once this is set up, you get asked every time you reboot whether you want to start up windows or osx. If you start up windows, it runs at full-speed, any piece of windows software including autocad, like any other windows pc. When you're done, you just restart into osx. OSX comes with a programme called Boot Camp that automates this whole process.

If you buy a programme called Parallels, you can also run windows programmes without even leaving osx (although they don't run quite at full speed).

I've been using a mac for years. I just like the way it works, and the feel of the hardware.

The current iMacs are powerful machines, and are actually pretty price-competitive.

I'd be interested to see your calculations, distant.

find a friend to build you one........ i'm getting a pc desktop from a friend that built it to run like a freight train.... 5 fans/etc..... crazy... he built it for video editting and running graphic software with multiple programs running........ cant wait to get the loot together for that....


b

Well, lets be honest, based on the fact that I have never used one, and now there is an opportunity to buy another computer, a Mac is appealing for its aesthetics as much as for its functionality.

I dont necessarily need a freight train - this will also be a home computer for the family. I do need it to run Acad and Rhino effectively, but it need'nt be up to Weta's standards.

agfa8x, so each time I use rhino, I boot up windows. If I was also surfing the web and listening to music, would I need to duplicate copies of programs for each partition? two copies of itunes, 2 copies of safari etc?

d

yeah, sort of. it's effectively two computers. if you want to run a windows programme, you quit osx and reboot in windows. to get back to your osx programmes, you quit windows and reboot in osx again.

if you use Parallels, you don't need to quit osx. you can just start up your windows programme inside osx. there is a performance penalty though. 2D in autocad would probably work ok, but 3D in rhino might not work so well. the next version of Parallels migh be able to manage.

there's a mac-native version of rhino in beta right now, btw.

the hardware really is beautiful. the only thing i use my homebuilt pc for these days is half-life!

Here's a really good review of the current imac

Diabase, I'm so excited for you. Let us know how this works out for you. I'm walking across the stage in exactly 3 hours and 15 minutes. I couldn't sleep all night contemplating a similar career move.

And I got enough graduation loot to purchase a mac, but I'm not sure if its worth it for me, or not. Parallels excites me. I think that alone makes it feasible for me. I just can't decide if I'm gonna buy a mac or beef up my mutual funds (and maybe get a new shotgun with a little money I might skim off the top).

Best of luck to you on the career move, the renovation, and the computer purchasing. Keep us updated.

here's the thing about having a new mac: you can use both OSX and Windows--and through parallels you can use linux. It gives you much greater choice and opportunity to use the tools that you are most comfortable with and work best for you. There's even been some success getting OSX running on a "PC", but right now that's very experimental and not stable.

Low-end Dells will initially be cheaper than an iMac, but once you start tweaking the system the Dell's price will creep and get close to the iMac. High-end Dells are more expensive than a MacPro and even though they're using the same internals, the Dell is slower (based on benchmark tests with Maxwell and XP32Sp2 through bootcamp). I recently configured a Dell Precision with the same specs as my MacPro and it was running over $1k more.

will a Dell do what you want? more than likely, will you have problems? possibly

will a Mac do what you want? more than likely, will you have problems? possibly

Is Leopard the perfect operating system? no, though neither is XP or Vista or any of the Linux flavors.

mac dummy I like that - reminds me what I think most mac users are. Forgive me I'm bitter...macs are pretty, sleek, and powerful enough. But they are a couple buttons short, and they won't allow you to do anything. I liken using macs to capitalism...everything is fine with the world just don't ask too many questions or dig around

and I must say, I thought this thread was about something else (wink wink)

what do horses eat?

-- while I really have ZERO desire to immerse myself in the middle of a Mac / PC battle (life's way too short) here are the two configurations I'm considering and the actual pricing taken from the vendors' websites:

iMac - 2.8GHZ Intel Core 2 processor; 4GB 667MHz SDRAM; 500GB hard drive; 24-inch monitor; ATI Radeon HD 2600 PRO graphics card with 256MB memory; 8x DVD RW Superdrive; Office 2004 for Mac: $3,724

Dell Optiplex - 3.0GHz Intel Core 2 processor; 4GB 800MHz SDRAM; 500GB hard drive; 22-inch UltraSharp Widescreen Monitor; ATI Radeon HD 2400 XT graphics card with 256MB memory; 48x DVD RW SATA drive; MS Office Professional 2007; Acrobat 8.1: $2,301

While I may be missing something important here, it looks to me like I'm getting more horsepower and capability with the Dell, while saving $1,423 (about 38%)...faster processor, faster RAM, faster DVD drive, more advanced application software, etc. Am giving up a bit of monitor size.

I appreciate the elegance of Apple, and was hoping that would be the best way to go, but for me a computer is nothing more than a tool -- my self-image is not wrapped up in the tool I use -- I just want to get some work done and not pay more than I need to pay.

oh ... and, if I were to buy an iMac, I'll still need to purchase a copy of Windows XP ($190-$280) so I can continue to operate in the world of work, plus some of the other software mentioned above needed to make a dual existance practical. That widens the cost gap even further.

It would probably be worth $1000 not to have to use vista, although Dell does still offer a limited number of machines that run XP.

Of course you know that you can't compare Mac and PC processor speeds/RAM 1:1, right? Macs clock faster per Hz.

from the title of this thread, i thought this was going to be about something completely different.

: well -- I priced the Optiplex with Windows XP -- and, given the significant price differential, it still seems the Dell option is a better value, even if Macs do clock somewhat faster per Hz - they're not 38% faster.

distant: The base price for the iMac you describe is $2299. You can get RAM much cheaper through crucial.com than from Apple (never buy memory directly from the manufacturer; their markup is absurd), and I wouldn't touch MS-Office with a pole.

Apple's $79 iWork package does almost everything Office can do, and can import/export Office documents. There's also an app called Open Office which apparently does the same stuff for free, but I don't have any experience using it. People who have used it seem to love it, though.

You can also get a 2.4 GHz 24" iMac with a 500 GB hard drive for $1899. Unless you're doing lots of renderings or video editing, I doubt you'll see much of a difference between the 2.4 and the 2.8 GHz processors.

Keep in mind that Dell has one of the highest defect rates and lowest customer satisfaction scores in the industry; Apple has the lowest defect rate and highest customer satisfaction score.

And like Janosh said, you have to look at the clock speeds, rather than just the specs. Otherwise it's apples and oranges (no pun intended).

LIG -- how do you know Dell has "one of the highest defect rates and lowest customer satisfaction scores in the industry"? What is your source for that assertion?

Over the years I've owned two Dells personally and our office uses them exclusively - neither my personal Dells nor the ones in our office have given us any significant trouble at all.

Please also explain "clock speeds" -- how is that different from processor speed (2.8GHZ vs 3.0GHZ) and memory speed (667MHz vs. 800MHz)?

reasons not to have your friend build you a computer...

1. no warranty
2. when something breaks/comp crashes/lose files, the friendship will inevitably be put under strain.

It used to be true that you couldn't compare Mac and PC processors by speed alone (as Janosh said). This was because Macs used PowerPC processors (G3, G4, G5) and PCs used Intel processors.

Now, however, you can compare processors directly, because they are literally exactly the same Intel processor. A 2.6Ghz Core 2 Duo in a Mac is precisely the same as a 2.6Ghz Core 2 Duo in a PC.

Memory speed: faster is better. The memory in that Dell distant specced is faster than the ram in the imac.

re cost comparison - the imac also has miscellaneous hardware features that add up: built-in camera, bluetooth, wifi, firewire800, speakers. the imac also comes with a lot of proper software: the full ilife suite (iphoto, imovie etc...).

Totally thought this was going to be a funny blind-date story.

From Google Answers:

Clock speed does not necessarily indicate the speed at which a
computer will operate. This is easier to understand if you imagine two
cars, one is 6000lbs and has a 300HP engine, the other is 1500lbs and
has a 250HP engine. The lighter car with the smaller engine will go
substantially faster than the heavier car with the larger engine--even
though the Horsepower is lower. This is the same in the computer world
too.

Basically, Pentium M technology (which is found in the Centrino
chipset used on laptop computers) are a RISC chipset, originally
developed by Alpha. Essentially, the Pentium M chipset (which is found
in Intel Macs) is designed to be the smaller Horse-Power, but
"lighter" CPU. The Pentium M can do more per clock cycle than other
'faster' CPU's, so the net effect is that while it has less cycles, it
does MORE in each cycle. Therefore, the Pentium M is a much
faster/better CPU than *any* desktop chip on the market.

In my own opinion, the Pentium M CPU is the most exciting thing to
come out of Intel in years.

My own notebook has a Pentium M 2.0ghz - that CPU is actually faster
than most 3ghz CPU's on the market today. This strange numbering
scheme is known in the industry as the megahertz myth.

So, the short answer is that Apple's, since they use the Pentium M
CPUs, are indeed faster than the higher-numbered PC counterparts.

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=715594

Legolas-ga

No searches were performed as this is all knowledge I have as a
Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer.

diabase. I would reconsider going into property development if it is making a computer opperating system selection this diffucult.

I bought my dell laptop for school in 2001 and it's been a champ. Aside from the time I dropped it and broke the motherboard and HD, i've never had a problem. Also the Dell customer service was AMAZING. In two days a guy showed up at my door (ona a saturday) and replaced the motherboard, HD AND screen (wasn't broken, but jumped at the chance to get it replaced) all covered under warranty. Also the month before my warranty ran out (3 years ago), i called them and had them replace the screen and motherboard again, this time with 1g ram instead of 512. Again, no charge.

I run Architecutral Desktop, Form z, Sketchup, Revit and the Adobe suite on it all the time and aside from rendering in form z and revit, it's no different than my desktop at work which is spec'd much faster. But as it's almost 7 years old now and I too am looking at a new computer and am faced with the same issues. And for me it pretty much boils down to "is the coolness and aesthetics of the apple worth 25%?"

my views:
PC - cheaper, bigger/heavier.
Mac - MUCH better looking, I like the simplicity of osx, MUCH easier to travel with...

In addition to the processor differences that Janosh pointed out, note that a Mac running Mac OS X will also operate faster than a Windows machine because it's not running a bloated, bug-ridden operating system which hogs tons of memory and processor speed itself. Of course, that advantage disappears if you're running Windows on your Mac.

I'll have to look up the stats regarding reliability and customer satisfaction among computer manufacturers, but I know I've seen them in multiple sources.

Janosh, that guy sounds quite confused! It's true that the Pentium M did more 'work' per clock cycle than the plain-jane P4. But this was not a difference between Macs and PCs, because both Macs and PCs used the Pentium M. However, this is a bit irrelevant now, because the Pentium M is two generations old now. Intel Core was its successor, and the current generation of computers (Macs and PCs) are using Intel Core 2.

There is literally no difference between a Mac CPU and a PC CPU. You could open up your Mac, take the CPU out and put it in your PC, or vice versa (so long as they were both socket-compatible).

(a more technical discussion here)

Sorry, I (and that guy you quoted) made an error in fact: Apple never used the Pentium M. They switched to Intel processors with Intel Core.

Oops. You're right!

I'm no partisan one way or the other - I use PCs at work for AutoCAD and Max, and Macs at home for my portfolio, late night projects and writing. PCs are super if you are doing normal stuff, with new equipment and the latest software. Deviate a little and things get hairier. Software is harder to steal for Macs as well, which is a big deal for some people.

I promise, just one more for now:

PC World: Fastest Windows Notebook is a Mac

This article is about the MacBook Pro, but keep in mind that the iMac is basically a bigger and cheaper MBP on a stick.

Janosh, it's not "stealing" it's "sharing"...or at least that's what the kids say. Besides, why break the law when we could just drop 3k for Autocad?

According to those ratings Dell is second to las on the Consumer Satisfaction score vs. apple being the highest. However the total spread from dead last to first is from 73-79.

Doesn't that seem like an insignificant difference?

anyone reading the DSLR thread? same deal to me.

Apparently, I've been told, Canon has better optics by a bit. To me, a Nikon feels better in my hand. A few hundred $$ either way is no big deal to get a tool that feels right to you.

& don't get me started on keeping your brand new snowboard outta the rocks....

So what everyone is saying is that I can run Rhino and Acad on a mac with dual operating systems. Since I have a PC at my new workpace, it is probably best to stay with the tried and true.

rfuller, thanks for the words. I already work in the property development industry, but as a design manager - responsible for the design and planning of our developments. I will be moving into a development mangement role with a new company with some very interesting projects and a great ethos - very rare in the development industry.

Feel free to email me for advice - I may start a thread outlining the changes at a later date. And I am excited about the renovation - we agreed on a bathroom design last night, breakthrough!

And designkern or whatever - get bent, and learn how to spell.

I thought this thread was gonna be about this...

;-)

well ... ok ... must ... get .. back . to the topic of this thread

paper vs. plastic

boobs vs. buns

democrat vs. republican

ford vs. chevy

tastes great vs. less filling

hillary vs. barack

apple vs. pc ... yet another of life's great unresolvable arguments!

my advice - buy what you like and can afford. you know what you want - don't agonize over the decision once you've done a little research. it's a personal computer and it's a personal decision.

if what you want is inexpensive reliable transportation, buy the Honda (e.g. a PC) ... or, if you want a sexy, fast way to get from here to there, buy the BMW (e.g. an Apple) ... but, whatever you buy, don't denegrate what other people like or have to say on the subject ... come on people, it's just a computer.

quizzical,

Good advice,

You would notice that I dont normally ask these kind of comparison questions - I genuinely know nothing of macs hence the question. I am not a shrinking violet. I just bought a new car, a house, designed a renovation, got a new job and bought an ipod and a t-shirt without any of your help...

- apologies - I was using "you" in the collective sense - I wasn't meaning to single you out. Sorry if I sounded preachy.

Likewise - I too get annoyed by these kind of questions normally,,,

(i emailed you)

i totally thought this thread was going to be a question of its author's sexual orientation (ignoring the fact of it being in the software/hardware category, of course)

ryanj, fooled you!