I have an MBA and am the CEO of our firm -- but our firm is considerably smaller than the size you seek for your research.

One caution: you probably should not expect your employer to pay for your MBA without some significant strings attached to that expenditure. I've seen a number of such cases -- and in all such cases the employer expects that you agree to work for the firm for X number of years after you obtain your degree, or pay back a substantial amount of their investment if you leave before X. In my experience X usually = 5.

When I headed off to MBA school, my employer offered me a deal like that. With great trepidation, I elected not to take them up on their offer, even though at the time I really did intend to return to the firm once I obtained my degree and I was terribly short of cash.

As it turned out, my time in MBA school radically changed my world view and immediately after graduation I went another direction for a while. I was very glad that I had not indentured myself to my employer at the time I headed off to grad school.

The thing about an MBA is that it opens up many possibilities for you in other fields -- possibilities that are both related and unrelated to architecture. Be absolutely sure you will be happy with the entanglements if you decide to let your employer pay for your education.

Good luck.

I left grad school with my MArch/MBA in 2005 and I have to say the MBA was 100% worth it. I think your nuts thinking any architecture firm would pay for the MBA, but thats why they have low interest student loans. In terms of understanding and being able to converse with clients, as well as getting a handle on how firms work internally its been a great help. As I am still early in my career the MBA is not something that I am putting to use 100% right now, but as I progress I've got a feeling I will be using more and more of those skills, which I already have a leg up in terms of understanding that many of my Arch-only peers. I say go for it, and if you can take as many Finance courses (Real Estate and Commercial Lending focuses) as possible. Money drives everything and its a great help to be fluent in the lingo when clients switch over to numbers mode.

-Brent

It's not an MBA, but Gregg Pasquarelli of SHoP has an undergraduate degree in finance. And SHoP have some of the most interesting building finance schemes around: their firm invests in many of the projects it builds.

An understanding of finance (and contracts and building economics in general) is one thing that's sorely lacking in architectural training. But whether you need an MBA to gain that kind of knowledge is another question altogether.

I'm more interested in getting a MBA for the networking personally.

Last firm I was at: 4 partners, 0 MBA's.

Current firm: 2 partners (if you can call me one - I'm more of a powerful assistant), 0 MBAs

Both firms strongly emphasized doing good work (not cutting edge, but high quality) over making money, but did/do make a decent living.

: "Both firms strongly emphasize doing good work over making money."

Having read many of your posts here before, I suspect you did not mean to imply that "good work" and "making money" are mutually exclusive. However, you hint at a view that I believe is held by too many in our profession.

Good businesses understand the value of delivering a good product / providing a good service. Good businesses understand the value of operating in a professional manner and treating their employees well. Good businesses understand the value of providing effective training and conducting research and developing efficient operating processes.

In my view, having the extra degree has gone a long way to helping me understand my clients - and their needs - much better than I could have done without the extra education. In my experience, those of us who have MBAs didn't necessarily take that extra degree simply to maximize our income or to squeeze every last penny out of the firm. We did this extra work so we would know how to operate a good business to support our addiction to architecture.

My MBA has helped me establish, and operate, a much more stable and effective firm. As a result, we do very good, award winning, published work. This lets us command higher fees for the work we undertake. Those higher fees give us a nice living and a lot of flexibility. But, the fees are not what we're really about -- we're really about the work.

For us, it not about doing either "good work" or "making money" -- for us, it about having both. It's really a symbiotic relationship -- we believe you need to make money in order to do good design -- and vice versa.

do you have much real world experience because an mba without experience ain't worth much.

I'd have to say that no degree is worth much without combining it with some real world experience

I don't think any of myoffice's practice leaders have MBAs. There are MBAs in the office, serving as advisors on the real estate side, etc, but these are not the practice leaders. MBAs are so 1990 :)

I'm also assuming that having an MBA guarantees nothing. Many of the people who go for MBAs end up in money-focused industries: venture capital, management consulting, hedge funds, etc. That's why the impression exists that getting an MBA = $$$$$$$$.

Architecture, the way it's practiced now, isn't a money-focused industry. It's more product focused. The basic problem is that what we do isn't scaleable (in the way that, say, selling a piece of software is. Microsoft made one product, and sold it a billion times. Architects make one product each time, at two years a pop.)

Our profession is time intensive. You do a $500,000 house, you charge a 10% commission. That's only $50,000, which isn't even a salary. Then you devote 20 hours a week for 2 years to getting the project done. You've lost money as an office.

This is why architecture isn't always profitable. We charge too little, and it takes too long to get a good finished product.

farwest1,
where can i read about SHoP's project financing methods?
this is part of a research i am doing.
can anybody direct me to certain sources for financing of housing that you find creative?
i have been looking at private, institutional and donation based housing provisions/financing.

- "We charge too little, and it takes too long to get a good finished product."

Thank you -- you reinforce my point quite eloquently. The type of training one receives in MBA school leads to better ways of thinking not only about how to increase revenues (adding value) but also about how to lower the cost of delivering the service (productivity).

You are correct in saying that a high proportion of MBA graduates migrate toward industries with a reputation for providing high compensation. That's why I'm always very impressed when architects with MBAs stay here with us ... it probably means they really love architecture and want to apply what they've learned to making the profession better, and more rewarding.

Orhan,

Here's a thread from a while back: http://www.archinect.com/forum/threads.php?id=64638_0_42_0_C

I'm interested in this too, so if you find any more info on SHoP's process, maybe you can post it here.

Incidentally, quizzical, have you come across some good books for novices about real estate financing?

Or about "adding value" in general?

I'm wondering if there's a way to take a kind of autodidactic approach to an MBA, just by reading about and putting into practice certain methods.

thanks farwest. if i find more, i will post.

quizzical: ...I suspect you did not mean to imply that "good work" and "making money" are mutually exclusive.

I did not mean to imply this. And I did say that I've/the firms I've worked at have always made a decent living. What defines "decent" is definitely open to interpretation.

hey liberty bell: How's the business plan going? (No, I'm not trying to be bitch - I really am curious about the process.)

quizz, you meet any potential clients in bizz school?

We did this extra work so we would know how to operate a good business to support our addiction to architecture.

This sums up my attitude exactly.

You're not a bitch, DCA, that's exactly the kind of tickle I always need to actually get anything done! I need prodding, constant prodding, to be able to push aside the 20 other things and focus on any given one. Then those other 20 pop up again, along with 5 new ones. <sigh>

The business plan has not yet materialized...nor has the website. We've had a good year, though!

chop chop, liberty bell! :) I wonder what's more important: a solid business plan or a website. You might have difficulty starting either one if you think they are equally important. (I have this problem all the time - having equally urgent tasks can be paralyzing.)



Anyways, to address the original post: I've worked for four firms:three architectural (120, 20, and 75 employees, respectively), one consulting (30 employees).

The consulting firm was run by MBA's AND architect-types, and they seemed to have a good business model.

Only one of the three architecture firms I've worked at has had an MBA-educated partner. The firm (20 employees) that did was very engrossed in production, tracking everyone's time down to 4-hour incriments, and not 'wasting' time on researching new materials/details/ideas. They also sold stock home plans. ug. Miserable.

marlowe: I'm not sure where you are in the corporate structure of your firm, but I could anticipate that your employer might even feel intimidated by your request. Do the principals all have MBA's, or would you be the only one? Are you a director of a major studio in your firm, do you bring in a lot of work?

As some alluded to above, an MBA means nothing without practical experience. So, why not bi-pass the formal degree and ask to learn more about how your company operates from a business standpoint, while you are still working there full-time? If that leads to a dead end, I would encourage you to just pay actue attention to your firm's business management practices: how are the projects invoiced? what does the outstanding AR look like? how does the firm get work? what are the firm's 5, 10, 20 year goals? who does the hiring, and how are candidates chosen.... Perhaps you already know this about your firm - if so, great!

Well, I've got a semi related question here.

I start grad school in a month. Currently I'm signed up for an MArch/MBA program. Small problem, though. It's looking like the wife has some medical problems that will greatly reduce the size of our baby-making time frame. (We'll find out for sure at the end of January.)

Having kids is a big deal to us, so its looking like I may just get the MArch now, sire a kid or two, and go back later for the MBA. No matter what happens, 10 years from now I will have an MArch, and MBA, and kid or two.

So my question is, how hard is it getting accepted to a reputable MBA program (like TCU or SMU) if you've already got a masters and you're a few years out. Also, do most of the more reputable schools offer night classes, or am I going to have to go back to a MWF work schedule?

: I can't give you a generalized answer - only relate my own experience.

I worked for four years (and obtained my license) before starting my MBA. I applied to three top northeastern schools, relying on strong grades from my architectural education and decent ATGSB scores. I was accepted at all three schools.

I think it was helpful that I offered work experience - and, that I was an architect. Most top business schools are case-study oriented and value both experience and diversity.

Not having much real business training, I was terrified when I started the academic program. But, I soon realized all the others in my class were just normal folks and my architectural education had prepared me to tackle complex problems.

It's not common for the best schools to have night programs - but they do exist. Like architecture, much of the value of a business education comes from daily interaction with your classmates. If you want a really strong business education, think long and hard about trying to get your MBA at night, while you're working a full time job. You'll work yourself to death and still not get from your education what you hoped.

actually many top schools like indiana for example offer many mba programs for the working professional and even for people on archinect.

Well, I don't know how TCU and SMU stack up. They could be bottom tier for all I know. But it looks like Dallas is where I'm headed to work, and so those will be my two best options.

Now then, I need to find out if those two will accept archinectors.

Quiz, were they concerned more with your undergrad grades, or your grad school grades? Or do you know?

while it seems pointless to debate the meaning of "top school" - the main issue is the nature of a night program vs. a residential program. Good MBA programs are not like the pablum business programs the jocks take in undergrad - I worked much harder getting my MBA than I did getting my architecture degree. I can't imagine getting much from a night program after working in an office all day.

But, each to his own!

- I'm ancient - I hold a 5-year professional degree. So I can't answer your question authoritatively. However, I expect they're looking for a progressive pattern of academic success.

Well, I'm not totally set on a night program. And I understand that the MBA is much more challenging than just a general business degree.

But I also spend my free time reading books about price to earnings ratios, economics, and other uber-nerd type things. I think that an MBA will open up even more doors, many of which might be even more fulfilling for me than just architecture/design.

PS, Sorry to hijack this thread marlowe.

: I took a quick look at the MBA websites for both TCU and SMU. They both look like good programs. There are a variety of attendance options at each, so you should have plenty of flexibility.

You will find on both websites reasonably detailed profiles of their student bodies and their general qualifications - each program seems to value work experience, especially in their Professional MBA tracks.

Note - both Business Week and US News and World Report do fairly objective rankings of graduate business programs each year - you might want to start tracking those as a matter of general info.

Good luck.

thanks for all your help quizzical. I'm helping my wife with her final ID project tonight, otherwise I would be doing more research on my own.

To whoever asked for books everyone needs to read "A Random Walk Down Wall Street." It is a very well written engaging book that will giv you a great primer on modern economic/finance theory.

In terms of Real Estate Books look to ULI, particularly a title called "Principles of Real Estate Development." It reads like a text book - because it is - but has a TON of info.

Speaking to networking. I've brought in a handful of new clients to my firm through being active in ULI. Its by far the best organization any architect can join in terms of networking. Its always good job security when you can bring in your own business.

Links:

www.uli.org

http://www.amazon.com/Real-Estate-Development-Principles-Process/dp/0874208254


-Brent