I pretty much have this job in the bag. My last firm was paying me 55k + excellent benefits (MDV) + small annual bonus.
This was my salary when hired Ocotber 2006. If I am going to be picky, I should ask for 58-60k. I graduated in 2003, and I admit I was lucky to get 55.
SO. Tomorrow I am meeting with a one man show. He needs to bring in a second person. He has been in business for over 20 years, and he is doing quite well. In Washington state, even if you are a salary employee your employer is required to pay time and a half for any hours after 40 each week (or compensate with time off).
So...I am also concerned about insurance. Let's say I ask him to pay my COBRA premium until November 2008, which is about 350 a month. I ask him for 26 an hour, keep it hourly, no salary.
OR - do I ask for 60k salary, no insurance and minimum 40 hour work week with paid overtime, not compensated with time off?
I need some help processing this one. I want the job. I want to start Monday, and I damn sure want to make some money because I have outrageous bills now. I am making the decision to work for a tiny firm because I feel it benefits me one of two ways.
1. I stay for a while, and I am offered a partenership.
2. I am groomed to be a small business owner, and will have been paid well to learn every aspect of the business.
I definitely do not want to work for a large firm. I hate being typecast into a single role...then waiting years to move up the ladder. I also hate the bs meetings and company crap.
Also I think you want to check on the overtime. The department of labor has a list of professions who are exempt from overtime and minimum wage, architects fit the description. But I could be wrong as there is some variation from state to state.
As far as advice goes. I prefer getting payed more and being able to deal with insurance and retirement investments on my own. I think you can generally get more favorable plans or at least you aren't stuck with what they have (it may not suit you). It also keeps you flexible, if this job doesn't work out or things get slow and you're let go, then you have to start this process all over again with the next firm. When I left my last job it took almost two years for all the 401k action to get transfered over.
I also like this approach because then everything is in the open the employer can't reuce your wage by hiding behind how "expensive" insurance is.
If I agree to hourly wages, then yes I will receive time and a half for every hour over 40. I will not be paid on salary basis or fee basis. The owner is paid on a fee basis...
Just google As.9.8 and AS.9.1.
Seriously, thanks for the link though. I was reading stuff from 2004. Kudos. Now I totally will take a pay cut for an hourly rate. :D
Excuse the emoticons...
4. Professional Employees Must be Compensated on a Salary or Fee Basis. In order to qualify for the professional exemption, the employee must meet the duties and must be compensated on a salary or fee basis. This standard also provides for application of a short test and a long test. See ES.A.9.8 Fee Basis and ES.A.9.1 Questions and Answers About Salary Basis.
1. Reliance On Pre-August 23, 2004 Federal Interpretation. Prior to August 23, 2004, state
and federal “white collar” exempt regulations had many identical parts. On August 23, 2004,
substantial changes were made to the federal regulations. The Department relies on the
interpretations of the pre-August 23, 2004 regulations where identical.
2. Fee Basis. The requirements for exemption as an administrative, professional, or outside
sales employee may be met by an employee who is compensated on a fee basis as well as by
one who is paid on a salary basis.
A fee basis means a fixed charge for work performed. These arrangements are characterized
by the payment of an agreed sum for a single job, regardless of the time required for its
completion.
This is similar to piecework, but with the distinction that a fee payment is generally made for the
kind of job that is unique rather than for a series of jobs that are repeated an indefinite number
of times and for which payment on an identical basis is made over and over again.
3. Payments Not Considered a Fee Basis. Payments based on the number of hours
or days worked and not on the accomplishment of a given single task are not considered
payments on a fee basis.
What does salary basis mean?
Salary is where an employee regularly receives for each pay period of one week or
longer a predetermined monetary amount (salary) consisting of all or part of his or her
compensation. The salary shall not be subject to deductions because of variations in
the quantity or quality of the work performed, except as provided in the regulation. The
salary amount cannot be less than the amount required in WAC 296-128-510, WAC 296-
128-520, and WAC 296-128-530. The pay period cannot exceed one month.
2.
Are employers required to pay additional compensation to exempt employees for
overtime hours worked?
No. The minimum wage and overtime laws do not require overtime pay or
compensatory time to exempt employees. However, employees and employers may
negotiate agreements for additional pay or compensatory time or other compensation in
addition to the salary.
3.
If exempt employees receive a bonus for working over 40 hours in a workweek,
does this affect the salary basis?
No. The overtime law provides that the payment of compensation or a provision for
compensatory time off in addition to a salary does not destroy the salary basis. See No.
2.
I'll have to read through that, but professional does not require a license if you read their definition it's somewhat vague. Anyone who's gone to college pretty much qualifies.
ok so you're a professional if you are compensated on a salary or fee basis. you are compensated on a salary or fee basis if:
basically, i'm not bringing this shit up. if he owns a firm, then he should know this. i'll ask for hourly...and if he shoots it down i will make an argument, then just ask for a higher salary. nuf said.
WAC 296-128-530
Professional.
The term "individual employed in a bona fide . . . professional capacity" in RCW 49.46.010 (5)(c) shall mean any employee:
(1) Whose primary duty consists of the performance of work:
(a) Requiring knowledge of an advanced type in a field of science or learning customarily acquired by a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction and study, as distinguished from a general academic education and from an apprenticeship, and from training in the performance of routine mental, manual, or physical processes, or
(b) Original and creative in character in a recognized field of artistic endeavor (as opposed to work which can be produced by a person endowed with general manual or intellectual ability and training), and the result of which depends primarily on the intention, imagination, or talent of the employee; or
(c) Teaching, tutoring, instructing, or lecturing in the activity of imparting knowledge and who is employed and engaged in this activity as a teacher in the school system or educational establishment or institution by which he is employed; and
(2) Whose work requires the consistent exercise of discretion and judgment in its performance; and
(3) Whose work is predominantly intellectual and varied in character (as opposed to routine mental, manual, mechanical or physical work) and is of such a character that the output produced or the result accomplished cannot be standardized in relation to a given period of time; and
(4) Who does not devote more than 20 percent of his hours worked in the work week to activities which are not an essential part of and necessarily incident to the work described in paragraphs (1) through (3) of this section; and
(5) Who is compensated for his services on a salary or fee basis at a rate of not less than $170 per week exclusive of board, lodging, or facilities: Provided, That this paragraph (5) shall not apply in the case of an employee who is the holder of a valid license or certificate permitting the practice of law, medicine, or dentistry and who is actually engaged in the practice thereof: Provided, That an employee who is compensated on a salary or fee basis at a rate of not less than $250 per week (exclusive of board, lodging, or other facilities), and whose primary duty consists of the performance of work either requiring knowledge of an advanced type in a field of science or learning, which includes work requiring the consistent exercise of discretion and judgment, or requiring invention, imagination, or talent in a recognized field of artistic endeavor, shall be deemed to meet all of the requirements of this section.
I'm not anti, I don't need to win, like I said I'd like to be wrong I think it's atrocious the way most of us are paid. But I've not been able to interpret it that way. If I am wrong then there are 30,000 architecture firms in violoation of labor laws.e
No I'm self employed now and I have no employees so it makes no difference to me either way.
i strongly believe in a hourly plus over time wage...... i think salary gigs sucks balls especially in a firm... i have friends that worke 60+ hours for under 50,000 a year.... ......... i dont know why the profession is like that...... if you work in the construction field then you make your hourly plus time and ahalf ...... most jobs are like that.............. shit when i was at farmer jacks we made over time and i was a bagger...wtf........
if you are in a position where your work is based on hourly ideas....i.e. drafting/design/etc then i think you should get an hourly rate...... if you are at the top of the food chain and push a few papers and makes phone calls then i can see salary..........
unless you let them know that you are just gonna work 8-9 hour days and tell them that you have night job that pays a bit more..........
365 days - 104 weekends - 8 statutory holidays - 28 holidays = 225 days
225 days x 7.5 hours = 1687.5 hours
1687.5 hours x 26 $/hour = $43,875
insurance, $350/month = $?/hour = $4,200/year
total: $48k?!?
etc.
OK, I know you work longer hours, but do do the maths.
schedule it out. work out your preferred terms of contract: day rate, hourly, salary, lump sum. Make sure that you and your boss get enough freedom out of the arrangement.
I'm a bit stunned by your salary expectations. Your a 2003 graduate, not licensed, and you expect $60,000 and your COBRA to be paid? Hmm, I suspect you wouldn't get such a position here in Chicago. Is there an extreme shortage of architects in Washington state?
It seems unlikely a sole-practioner architect would be able to meet your expectations. Certainly not here. Have you confirmed his ability to meet the compensation expectation? At your level, I'd expect a $48,000 to be generous.
I just innocently asked for advice. I am working Thanksgiving because 1) I am a transplant. 2) I was off last week in between jobs 3) I would rather make the extra money than sit at home.
I wasn't trying to be rude, and I think everyone has their own way of working. If you want to take 50 days off a year, kudos to you. I want to work in a small firm with the potential to become a junior partner in a few years. That was a huge factor for me, even though it is a lateral move.
My last job...I had 4 weeks paid vacation + holidays + 8 sick days + $1 a month MDV, but I just wasn't happy where I was. I wasn't getting the kind of experience that would help me in the future. I was getting comfortable...and that is no way to kick off the kind of career I want.
So did you get $60k? Kudos if you did. That's pretty good for someone only 4 years out of university and unlicensed. Sadly, this profession doesn't usually pay that well and I wish the norm was more in-line with what you are making.
I do work with several ex-Seattlites who all seemed to think the pay wasn't anything special out there. I'm intrigued at the generous pay, especially for such a small firm. As Chicago Woman said, that would be very unusual in a mid-west market, let alone a high profile east coast market. Is there something else on your resume you aren't letting on?
job interview tomorrow - sealed deal - help me run the numbers
So,
I pretty much have this job in the bag. My last firm was paying me 55k + excellent benefits (MDV) + small annual bonus.
This was my salary when hired Ocotber 2006. If I am going to be picky, I should ask for 58-60k. I graduated in 2003, and I admit I was lucky to get 55.
SO. Tomorrow I am meeting with a one man show. He needs to bring in a second person. He has been in business for over 20 years, and he is doing quite well. In Washington state, even if you are a salary employee your employer is required to pay time and a half for any hours after 40 each week (or compensate with time off).
So...I am also concerned about insurance. Let's say I ask him to pay my COBRA premium until November 2008, which is about 350 a month. I ask him for 26 an hour, keep it hourly, no salary.
OR - do I ask for 60k salary, no insurance and minimum 40 hour work week with paid overtime, not compensated with time off?
I need some help processing this one. I want the job. I want to start Monday, and I damn sure want to make some money because I have outrageous bills now. I am making the decision to work for a tiny firm because I feel it benefits me one of two ways.
1. I stay for a while, and I am offered a partenership.
2. I am groomed to be a small business owner, and will have been paid well to learn every aspect of the business.
I definitely do not want to work for a large firm. I hate being typecast into a single role...then waiting years to move up the ladder. I also hate the bs meetings and company crap.
Anyway, advice on the money would be cool.
Later guys!
Is 30/hour, no insurance an option?
Also I think you want to check on the overtime. The department of labor has a list of professions who are exempt from overtime and minimum wage, architects fit the description. But I could be wrong as there is some variation from state to state.
no. not in washington state. there is a list of exemptions. i just wised up. i suggest more architects should do the same.
I believe exemtions means people who employers don't have to be payed overtime.
As far as I'm reading any "professional" is exempt and therefore does not need to be paid overtime. And architects seem to fit into that definition.
Federal
WA State
WA State Overtime Standards
WA Overtime Exemptions for Professionals
Am I reading these wrong? I'd love to be proven wrong on this.
As far as advice goes. I prefer getting payed more and being able to deal with insurance and retirement investments on my own. I think you can generally get more favorable plans or at least you aren't stuck with what they have (it may not suit you). It also keeps you flexible, if this job doesn't work out or things get slow and you're let go, then you have to start this process all over again with the next firm. When I left my last job it took almost two years for all the 401k action to get transfered over.
I also like this approach because then everything is in the open the employer can't reuce your wage by hiding behind how "expensive" insurance is.
You asked for it.
:P
If I agree to hourly wages, then yes I will receive time and a half for every hour over 40. I will not be paid on salary basis or fee basis. The owner is paid on a fee basis...
Just google As.9.8 and AS.9.1.
Seriously, thanks for the link though. I was reading stuff from 2004. Kudos. Now I totally will take a pay cut for an hourly rate. :D
Excuse the emoticons...
4. Professional Employees Must be Compensated on a Salary or Fee Basis. In order to qualify for the professional exemption, the employee must meet the duties and must be compensated on a salary or fee basis. This standard also provides for application of a short test and a long test. See ES.A.9.8 Fee Basis and ES.A.9.1 Questions and Answers About Salary Basis.
1. Reliance On Pre-August 23, 2004 Federal Interpretation. Prior to August 23, 2004, state
and federal “white collar” exempt regulations had many identical parts. On August 23, 2004,
substantial changes were made to the federal regulations. The Department relies on the
interpretations of the pre-August 23, 2004 regulations where identical.
2. Fee Basis. The requirements for exemption as an administrative, professional, or outside
sales employee may be met by an employee who is compensated on a fee basis as well as by
one who is paid on a salary basis.
A fee basis means a fixed charge for work performed. These arrangements are characterized
by the payment of an agreed sum for a single job, regardless of the time required for its
completion.
This is similar to piecework, but with the distinction that a fee payment is generally made for the
kind of job that is unique rather than for a series of jobs that are repeated an indefinite number
of times and for which payment on an identical basis is made over and over again.
3. Payments Not Considered a Fee Basis. Payments based on the number of hours
or days worked and not on the accomplishment of a given single task are not considered
payments on a fee basis.
What does salary basis mean?
Salary is where an employee regularly receives for each pay period of one week or
longer a predetermined monetary amount (salary) consisting of all or part of his or her
compensation. The salary shall not be subject to deductions because of variations in
the quantity or quality of the work performed, except as provided in the regulation. The
salary amount cannot be less than the amount required in WAC 296-128-510, WAC 296-
128-520, and WAC 296-128-530. The pay period cannot exceed one month.
2.
Are employers required to pay additional compensation to exempt employees for
overtime hours worked?
No. The minimum wage and overtime laws do not require overtime pay or
compensatory time to exempt employees. However, employees and employers may
negotiate agreements for additional pay or compensatory time or other compensation in
addition to the salary.
3.
If exempt employees receive a bonus for working over 40 hours in a workweek,
does this affect the salary basis?
No. The overtime law provides that the payment of compensation or a provision for
compensatory time off in addition to a salary does not destroy the salary basis. See No.
2.
oh...and before you get me. I am not technically a professional because I am not licensed.
I'll have to read through that, but professional does not require a license if you read their definition it's somewhat vague. Anyone who's gone to college pretty much qualifies.
blech whatever.
i get you want to win the argument, but why are you so anti? aren't you employed and want to get paid?
jees.
ok so you're a professional if you are compensated on a salary or fee basis. you are compensated on a salary or fee basis if:
basically, i'm not bringing this shit up. if he owns a firm, then he should know this. i'll ask for hourly...and if he shoots it down i will make an argument, then just ask for a higher salary. nuf said.
WAC 296-128-530
Professional.
The term "individual employed in a bona fide . . . professional capacity" in RCW 49.46.010 (5)(c) shall mean any employee:
(1) Whose primary duty consists of the performance of work:
(a) Requiring knowledge of an advanced type in a field of science or learning customarily acquired by a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction and study, as distinguished from a general academic education and from an apprenticeship, and from training in the performance of routine mental, manual, or physical processes, or
(b) Original and creative in character in a recognized field of artistic endeavor (as opposed to work which can be produced by a person endowed with general manual or intellectual ability and training), and the result of which depends primarily on the intention, imagination, or talent of the employee; or
(c) Teaching, tutoring, instructing, or lecturing in the activity of imparting knowledge and who is employed and engaged in this activity as a teacher in the school system or educational establishment or institution by which he is employed; and
(2) Whose work requires the consistent exercise of discretion and judgment in its performance; and
(3) Whose work is predominantly intellectual and varied in character (as opposed to routine mental, manual, mechanical or physical work) and is of such a character that the output produced or the result accomplished cannot be standardized in relation to a given period of time; and
(4) Who does not devote more than 20 percent of his hours worked in the work week to activities which are not an essential part of and necessarily incident to the work described in paragraphs (1) through (3) of this section; and
(5) Who is compensated for his services on a salary or fee basis at a rate of not less than $170 per week exclusive of board, lodging, or facilities: Provided, That this paragraph (5) shall not apply in the case of an employee who is the holder of a valid license or certificate permitting the practice of law, medicine, or dentistry and who is actually engaged in the practice thereof: Provided, That an employee who is compensated on a salary or fee basis at a rate of not less than $250 per week (exclusive of board, lodging, or other facilities), and whose primary duty consists of the performance of work either requiring knowledge of an advanced type in a field of science or learning, which includes work requiring the consistent exercise of discretion and judgment, or requiring invention, imagination, or talent in a recognized field of artistic endeavor, shall be deemed to meet all of the requirements of this section.
I'm not anti, I don't need to win, like I said I'd like to be wrong I think it's atrocious the way most of us are paid. But I've not been able to interpret it that way. If I am wrong then there are 30,000 architecture firms in violoation of labor laws.e
No I'm self employed now and I have no employees so it makes no difference to me either way.
i strongly believe in a hourly plus over time wage...... i think salary gigs sucks balls especially in a firm... i have friends that worke 60+ hours for under 50,000 a year.... ......... i dont know why the profession is like that...... if you work in the construction field then you make your hourly plus time and ahalf ...... most jobs are like that.............. shit when i was at farmer jacks we made over time and i was a bagger...wtf........
if you are in a position where your work is based on hourly ideas....i.e. drafting/design/etc then i think you should get an hourly rate...... if you are at the top of the food chain and push a few papers and makes phone calls then i can see salary..........
unless you let them know that you are just gonna work 8-9 hour days and tell them that you have night job that pays a bit more..........
b
365 days - 104 weekends - 8 statutory holidays - 28 holidays = 225 days
225 days x 7.5 hours = 1687.5 hours
1687.5 hours x 26 $/hour = $43,875
insurance, $350/month = $?/hour = $4,200/year
total: $48k?!?
etc.
OK, I know you work longer hours, but do do the maths.
schedule it out. work out your preferred terms of contract: day rate, hourly, salary, lump sum. Make sure that you and your boss get enough freedom out of the arrangement.
Overtime? WTF?
Well, at my last employer if you worked over 40 hours a week it was compensated as time off.
So yes, TF.
It happens. Especially in liberal Seattle.
I'm a bit stunned by your salary expectations. Your a 2003 graduate, not licensed, and you expect $60,000 and your COBRA to be paid? Hmm, I suspect you wouldn't get such a position here in Chicago. Is there an extreme shortage of architects in Washington state?
It seems unlikely a sole-practioner architect would be able to meet your expectations. Certainly not here. Have you confirmed his ability to meet the compensation expectation? At your level, I'd expect a $48,000 to be generous.
60k may be a teeny bit high, but there are new grads making 48k out there...
Well I was already paid 55, so whatever. 48 is completely unacceptable. I was paid over 40 when I started.
There are all types of firms...and I've found, if you ask for it, you are more likely to get it.
I am eligible to take the ARE. Have been for 3 years. That is something that is valuable.
it would be so hilarious if your boss read this thread.
You know what. This is why I hate architects. I am not a martyr.
I don't think you'll get the job. Would you hire you?
Sweetie, I'm not suggesting $48k. You suggested $26/hour which on a 37.5 hour week with 28+8 holidays and your insurance paid is $48k.
If you want to negotiate yourself a 42.5 hour week, and 10+8 days holiday:
365-104-8-10 = 243
243 x 8.5 = 2065.5 hours
2065.5hours x 26$/hour = $53,703
$53,703 + $4,200(insurance contribution) = $57,903
Which is exactly what you want, if you like 42.5 hour weeks and 10 days holiday.
If you can't work this stuff out, you should be a salaried employee.
Well, I got the job, and I actually got what I asked for. Nanny nanny poo poo.
No, I think I should be an owner, because I just got you to do it for free.
Also, who takes off 28 holidays? I am working on Thanksgiving...
Also, never call me sweetie again.
sweetiehon, because I can work it out,
I'm planning 50 days holiday this year.
Why would you want to work thanksgiving?
actually cutie pie...
I ran the numbers last night.
I just didn't use YOUR calculation.
I just innocently asked for advice. I am working Thanksgiving because 1) I am a transplant. 2) I was off last week in between jobs 3) I would rather make the extra money than sit at home.
I wasn't trying to be rude, and I think everyone has their own way of working. If you want to take 50 days off a year, kudos to you. I want to work in a small firm with the potential to become a junior partner in a few years. That was a huge factor for me, even though it is a lateral move.
My last job...I had 4 weeks paid vacation + holidays + 8 sick days + $1 a month MDV, but I just wasn't happy where I was. I wasn't getting the kind of experience that would help me in the future. I was getting comfortable...and that is no way to kick off the kind of career I want.
It's all relative.
Kiss and makeup. Let's bury this thread please.
So did you get $60k? Kudos if you did. That's pretty good for someone only 4 years out of university and unlicensed. Sadly, this profession doesn't usually pay that well and I wish the norm was more in-line with what you are making.
I do work with several ex-Seattlites who all seemed to think the pay wasn't anything special out there. I'm intrigued at the generous pay, especially for such a small firm. As Chicago Woman said, that would be very unusual in a mid-west market, let alone a high profile east coast market. Is there something else on your resume you aren't letting on?
Well I was already paid 55, so whatever. 48 is completely unacceptable. I was paid over 40 when I started.
Wow. I'm speechless. I've never seen such astounding self-entitlement on Archinect. All I can say is - don't get too comfortable.
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