Working on a project on a brownfield site in metro NYC were some of the toxic nasty goop has been encapsulated on site (1/3rd of the site), while other areas were scooped out and removed. Anybody ever get a building approved/built over a 'direct contact cap and vapor intrusion control'?
The initial environmental engineer's report says that while it is not recommended, that it is possible with lots of bureaucratic red-tape for modifying the installed barriers for footings and stuff. The same report recommends on grade parking or open space over this cap. We're looking at creating a high density commercial district on this part of the site, not residential (which requires a higher level of clean up). So should I tell the senior designer to abandon all hope of placing buildings on this part of the site?
I have faith in installing below slab ventilation and vapor barriers to protect the inhabitants of buildings above - just don't know if this is battle that can be won with the NJDEP...
we're in that sticky part of the project where we don't have a signed contract , but we are expected to produce ideas. so no money to hire the experts - but I'm interested in the referral.
I'm not an expert compared to the professional environmental engineers, but I do know more then most architects on this topic.
Beta might know the site, but for all his spit and vinegar, he's quite a nice jersey boy inside...
If we are going to collectively talk a big game about environmental responsibility/sustainability, we should also be willing to clean up our own messes and the messes made by those who came before us.
I don't frequently reference it, but A Pattern Language (Christopher Alexander) states, "Buildings must always be built on those parts of the land which are in the worst condition, not the best." (104 Site Repair).
pilings are interesting, but any penetration of the cap is potentially a major issue and you tend to need lots of pilings - so lots of holes. We're trying to keep noxious vapors from wafting up into the occupied spaces...
i'd trust your expertise, treekiller, but if i had the smallest doubt that this may endanger public health or safety, i would err on the side of caution. additionally it would be a good idea to be in close contact with the appropriate overseeing officials from the outset. to start something like this and have to reverse course midstream is a good way to blow up a budget and really piss off a client. i've seen it happen before.
Talk to a civil engineer, get his proposal which details his scope. Determine your scope and write a proposal. Give to the client. Talk over coffee and let them realize its complicated. Don't do work for free. Right now, for free, the client gets the information of "Multi-story foundations on a contaminated site are very tricky. When you need to know how tricky, here is our proposal to investigate."
the atlantic station site in atlanta would be a similar condition i think... they trucked off tons of bad stuff and then capped the rest... as far as i know there are acres of stuff built over the top of the cap... granted the majority of the "ground floor" is a ginormous parking garage and then the habitable space begins on a constructed ground plane above parking... the architecture is AWFUL, but it might be worth looking at...
a thick mat slab does seem the best structural concept - especially cause I doubt the encapsulated soil is compacted very much. but this is all speculation since there is no guarantee that the project will move forward.
I'm working on a project in Williamsburg... and while I don't think the site has the same toxicity as a brownfeild, it was still designated a "little e" hazmat site by the ECB, considering it's a few blocks away from where they hit crude oil when digging for another project (gotta love being on top of one of the world's largest oil spills). We had about 8 months of paperwork between us, the ECB, contractors, excavators, etc, until we finally received permission to move forward. We're using a thickened slab coated in a Grace Preprufe vapor membrane, with excavated soil being thoroughly cleaned (burned, i believe) and trucked to secluded dumping sites. So yeah.. there went 1 million dollars of the budget for a 4 story building and we haven't started construction yet.
we're thinking a little grander then 4 stories adjacent to the meadowlands - the client wants over 1m sf of stuff dropped on the 16 acre site. they got about $15m knocked off the selling price to cover scooping out four feet of not-so-toxic soil from the site and replacing it with clean fill.
as to your greenpoint/wburg site- I'd recommend a negative pressure ventilated foundation too. Don't know Preprufe's effectiveness in blocking benzene and other VOCs from wafting up through the slab - so get fans installed to be double sure... good luck!
I've spoken to a waste management engineer about this very topic and his take is similar to what your engineers have said, parking or open space. The engineer noted that if I wanted to build on the site it would have to be cleaned up.
after spending a day playing with massing- total cleanup seems to be the only option. my first pass at the parking count generated 6800 stalls - or 5 stories of parking, so surface parking isn't an option if the client want 1.5m sf of program built.
this is why I'm called treekiller!!!! no trees will be left after this gets built!
On a side note, we are using Grace Preprufe Waterproofing System on a similar project to phuyaka's Williamsburg project where we encountered some toxic (s)oil. Phuyaka or anyone else, do you know if the Grace product can withstand these toxins and not deteriorate over time?
The National Brownfields Conference is the largest, most comprehensive conference focused on cleaning up and redeveloping abandoned, underutilized, and potentially contaminated properties in the nation. There is no better deal in the redevelopment marketplace than Brownfields 2008. Why? Because registration is free, and by signing up you gain access to more than 130 educational and learning opportunities, outstanding plenary sessions, 200 exhibitors, scores of networking events, special training sessions, film screenings, book signings, and much, much more.
There are plenty of ways that individuals and organizations can take advantage of all the educational and networking opportunities that Brownfields 2008 will present. Whether you’re a newcomer to the world of economic and environmental redevelopment, or a seasoned professional looking to make new connections and increase your business Brownfields 2008 offers something for you.
Treekiller are you going? I couldn't find a list of speakers..
Will there be any?
Sounds awesome. Free, which is always a plus.
I wish i had some PTO...
our first step in all of this was hiring an independent environmental research firm that was very familiar with the ECB's regulations and protocol. They were able to condense all of our soil reports and material specs into one coherent booklet that we presented to the ECB. Though it was a lengthy process, having a third party was completely necessary (perhaps even mandatory in some instances, I'm not sure).
As far as Grace goes, the firm had recommended it based on their previous experience, and a phone call later Grace had faxed all of the technical reports needed for the specific membrane we selected (they test these things against everything). It is definitely a tricky situation, and in nyc every site, program, user group, whatever, had a strict set of requirements. Even though we were eventually cleared, we couldn't get our boring permits before the first freeze so I guess I'll have to wait a couple of months to see if there are any hangups. Any progress treekiller?
Dec 17, 07 7:49 pm ·
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brownfields - building on top of poison?
Working on a project on a brownfield site in metro NYC were some of the toxic nasty goop has been encapsulated on site (1/3rd of the site), while other areas were scooped out and removed. Anybody ever get a building approved/built over a 'direct contact cap and vapor intrusion control'?
The initial environmental engineer's report says that while it is not recommended, that it is possible with lots of bureaucratic red-tape for modifying the installed barriers for footings and stuff. The same report recommends on grade parking or open space over this cap. We're looking at creating a high density commercial district on this part of the site, not residential (which requires a higher level of clean up). So should I tell the senior designer to abandon all hope of placing buildings on this part of the site?
I have faith in installing below slab ventilation and vapor barriers to protect the inhabitants of buildings above - just don't know if this is battle that can be won with the NJDEP...
ha, this topic was the only one that came to mind over in TC when you asked about what you should write on next. I thought, brownfield reclamation!
i know an amazing expert should you need one.
we're in that sticky part of the project where we don't have a signed contract , but we are expected to produce ideas. so no money to hire the experts - but I'm interested in the referral.
I'm not an expert compared to the professional environmental engineers, but I do know more then most architects on this topic.
Beta might know the site, but for all his spit and vinegar, he's quite a nice jersey boy inside...
If we are going to collectively talk a big game about environmental responsibility/sustainability, we should also be willing to clean up our own messes and the messes made by those who came before us.
I don't frequently reference it, but A Pattern Language (Christopher Alexander) states, "Buildings must always be built on those parts of the land which are in the worst condition, not the best." (104 Site Repair).
Piles, tk, pilings are your friends. Very minimal ground disturbance.
pilings are interesting, but any penetration of the cap is potentially a major issue and you tend to need lots of pilings - so lots of holes. We're trying to keep noxious vapors from wafting up into the occupied spaces...
build everything on pontoons and float them on the site. great if a flood or hurricane come too.
seriously though, what about floating everything on thick mat slabs? they don't need deep footings.
i'd trust your expertise, treekiller, but if i had the smallest doubt that this may endanger public health or safety, i would err on the side of caution. additionally it would be a good idea to be in close contact with the appropriate overseeing officials from the outset. to start something like this and have to reverse course midstream is a good way to blow up a budget and really piss off a client. i've seen it happen before.
Talk to a civil engineer, get his proposal which details his scope. Determine your scope and write a proposal. Give to the client. Talk over coffee and let them realize its complicated. Don't do work for free. Right now, for free, the client gets the information of "Multi-story foundations on a contaminated site are very tricky. When you need to know how tricky, here is our proposal to investigate."
the atlantic station site in atlanta would be a similar condition i think... they trucked off tons of bad stuff and then capped the rest... as far as i know there are acres of stuff built over the top of the cap... granted the majority of the "ground floor" is a ginormous parking garage and then the habitable space begins on a constructed ground plane above parking... the architecture is AWFUL, but it might be worth looking at...
a thick mat slab does seem the best structural concept - especially cause I doubt the encapsulated soil is compacted very much. but this is all speculation since there is no guarantee that the project will move forward.
I'm working on a project in Williamsburg... and while I don't think the site has the same toxicity as a brownfeild, it was still designated a "little e" hazmat site by the ECB, considering it's a few blocks away from where they hit crude oil when digging for another project (gotta love being on top of one of the world's largest oil spills). We had about 8 months of paperwork between us, the ECB, contractors, excavators, etc, until we finally received permission to move forward. We're using a thickened slab coated in a Grace Preprufe vapor membrane, with excavated soil being thoroughly cleaned (burned, i believe) and trucked to secluded dumping sites. So yeah.. there went 1 million dollars of the budget for a 4 story building and we haven't started construction yet.
we're thinking a little grander then 4 stories adjacent to the meadowlands - the client wants over 1m sf of stuff dropped on the 16 acre site. they got about $15m knocked off the selling price to cover scooping out four feet of not-so-toxic soil from the site and replacing it with clean fill.
as to your greenpoint/wburg site- I'd recommend a negative pressure ventilated foundation too. Don't know Preprufe's effectiveness in blocking benzene and other VOCs from wafting up through the slab - so get fans installed to be double sure... good luck!
I've spoken to a waste management engineer about this very topic and his take is similar to what your engineers have said, parking or open space. The engineer noted that if I wanted to build on the site it would have to be cleaned up.
Brownfields should be reserved for public Housing...stay too long and you die.
(Just kidding) Prisons, maybe...
after spending a day playing with massing- total cleanup seems to be the only option. my first pass at the parking count generated 6800 stalls - or 5 stories of parking, so surface parking isn't an option if the client want 1.5m sf of program built.
this is why I'm called treekiller!!!! no trees will be left after this gets built!
On a side note, we are using Grace Preprufe Waterproofing System on a similar project to phuyaka's Williamsburg project where we encountered some toxic (s)oil. Phuyaka or anyone else, do you know if the Grace product can withstand these toxins and not deteriorate over time?
pollen/phuyaka- you better contact Grace and see what their technical support staff say. this is too big a liability/HSW issue to just wing it.
so anybody else going to Brownfields2008
The National Brownfields Conference is the largest, most comprehensive conference focused on cleaning up and redeveloping abandoned, underutilized, and potentially contaminated properties in the nation. There is no better deal in the redevelopment marketplace than Brownfields 2008. Why? Because registration is free, and by signing up you gain access to more than 130 educational and learning opportunities, outstanding plenary sessions, 200 exhibitors, scores of networking events, special training sessions, film screenings, book signings, and much, much more.
There are plenty of ways that individuals and organizations can take advantage of all the educational and networking opportunities that Brownfields 2008 will present. Whether you’re a newcomer to the world of economic and environmental redevelopment, or a seasoned professional looking to make new connections and increase your business Brownfields 2008 offers something for you.
its free!
its in Detroit!
Treekiller are you going? I couldn't find a list of speakers..
Will there be any?
Sounds awesome. Free, which is always a plus.
I wish i had some PTO...
pollen / tk
our first step in all of this was hiring an independent environmental research firm that was very familiar with the ECB's regulations and protocol. They were able to condense all of our soil reports and material specs into one coherent booklet that we presented to the ECB. Though it was a lengthy process, having a third party was completely necessary (perhaps even mandatory in some instances, I'm not sure).
As far as Grace goes, the firm had recommended it based on their previous experience, and a phone call later Grace had faxed all of the technical reports needed for the specific membrane we selected (they test these things against everything). It is definitely a tricky situation, and in nyc every site, program, user group, whatever, had a strict set of requirements. Even though we were eventually cleared, we couldn't get our boring permits before the first freeze so I guess I'll have to wait a couple of months to see if there are any hangups. Any progress treekiller?
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