my god, man... are you sure want to ask these broad , overarching questions here? only darkness awaits you,.... with this thread ...

or , woman...my apologies

....regardless, jpriii, obviously it sounds like you know what to possibly expect...

The questions seem broad, but I think that people have a sense of their peers' general well-being and happiness.

No profession is without struggle. In fact, I am looking to reasons to enter architecture despite all of these issues I outlined (if in fact they exist). So maybe that's a better place to start.

well,...good enough

( this is amusing because I have never actually answered such questions so formally, perhaps) ...Architecture (such a loaded word) , personally, may be the ability oin all of us to be a kind of field of thought encompassing a panoply of esoteric equivocations of the more formal initiative in nature to manifest a Form that reveals an evolution for stratums of consciousness and culture, blah,blah. Yet, as for the profession itself ...." eh, pick a side"....professional AIA nerds full of certifications, or weird ass theoreticians with too much 'Deleuze & Guatari' in your lingo...I think that it comes down to being able to resolve ones original reasons for entering the profession , and the consequences of its realities, after the fact.

Are you good at "resolving?"

no

Don't approach it with a bleak outlook, and it will turn out fine.

Of course I wish I could work less and make more, but who doesn't? We as a society are stressed out right now, everyone is so "retail-addled" (to borrow from Johnathan Glancey) and spoiled with luxury that we are focusing on purchasing power and material goods as a way of attaining happiness.

I'm flat broke, but at least once a week if not every day I actually, honestly, think these words to myself "I lvoe what I do. There is nothing in which I'd rather engage every day than exactly what I do."

And every time these threads come up, you'll find a huge proportion of posters who say those same words to themselves (along with a lot of comments form the peanut gallery, which shows we have a sense of humor, sardonic though it may be).

In addition, being self-employed, my schedule is flexible enough to allow me to spend important time with my child.

What else matters?

at this particular time on this day, this week, of nov 2007, the above statement is true for me. but i'll never admit to it in person because complaining is more fun.

here is a 'different path':

- work tirelessly day and night with like-minded people who strive to do something that makes a difference, that makes a change to the direction of architectural discourse. though working tirelessly, at least we are not complacent.

- 30K to 40K is not bad for just out of school. maybe there are lots of school debts, but the economy today is better than it was 15 years ago. be willing to look around for new opportunities. in some places, (dubai, australia, UK) recent grads are making more than this. but then again, who was doing this just for the money?

- if you start your own firm, the problem is not really those other people willing to work for little or for free, but all those greedy recent graduates who want to be paid a lot more than 30K to 40K, and then expect to walk away when a new offer comes up.

- the filters are there to keep you acquainted with the fact that you are doing something that can alter peoples' lives. that you can effect a city or a neighborhood. that architecture is an experience, not a choice.

- the most talented are never rewarded. anywhere. and really, who is to say that talent is the mere measure of quality. i would exchange persistence and resoluteness for talent any day.

and just as a response to: "I want to find examples of architects who are happy, are doing work they like, and feel well-compensated", this reminds me of a very well-known adage from the QS (quantity surveyor). when you are doing a building project, you can only ever have 2 of the 3 following desires:
1) - an accelerated time programme for the building
2) - high quality
3) - a low cost

with luck and hard work you get 2 of these, but never all 3.

some of it rings true, but not really.

i am a polyanna personality though. i am generally happy with life in general and love architecture. i don't feel undervalued or underpaid. but maybe that is cuz i avoided certain types of jobs...dunno. ask me in a few more years...maybe i have just managed to avoid reality for awhile...

There are several different "architect" worlds available to architects. I'll try to list several.

1) Work for high-profile architect in a high-profile major city, for relatively little compensation. Work long hours; live in an architectural cacoon. Talk "design"; talk "architecture". Dress "architect". Try to be "high-profile" yourself. Eventually leave to either earn more money, raise a family, move. Or have a trust fund or outside source of money.

2) Work for a very large architectural office in a high-profile major city, for more compensation and probably a more rounded experience. Work long hours; live in an architectural-dominated world. Struggle for good assignments. Get some work experience. May be difficult to get well-rounded experience in all segments of architectural practice. May be pegged as "technical" or "design" person. May be groomed for true career path advancement, or not. Talk design and architecture, but not as fervently. Maybe dress "architect", maybe not care anymore. Maybe stay, maybe go, depending on how career goes.

3) Work for a developer, A/E firm, or construction company, for even more compensation and probably more regular hours. Talk less architecture, but get a far more global understanding of architecture as a business. Little talk about design and architecture. Architectural registration is more difficult, unless you get it done first before switching to this type of employment.

4) Work for "design/build" architect/developer like Optima. Check out David Hovey FAIA.

5) Work in small non high profile office or office in non high profile city or area. Probably less stress and more normal working hours. Probably office run more as a "business" than as "high design architecture laboratory". Probably get well-rounded work experience. Good training if you intend to open your office.

6) Teach at an architectural school; try to find supplemental work as an architect at a firm. Try to get licensed. Try to move up academic postings. Try not to get marginalized.

7) Work for a company w/building product business. Little likelihood of architectural registration experience.

8) Work as a facilities management person for a company or institution. Little likelihood of architectural registration experience.

9) Open your own small office after licensing completed. Either rely on connections to get work (hope you have connections), or an outside source of income while you weather several/many lean years. Worry whether you can afford rent, employee benefits, and insurance. Try to make your employees "independent contractors" despite legal issues of doing so. Continue to struggle for many years, watch your income fluctuate dramatically. Expect that office may need to be shuttered and that you may need to get a job anyways.

10) Quit architecture altogether, go work in a related or unrelated field.

Some people find happiness and fulfillment in one of these scenarios. Others accept one of these scenarios, but struggle with the personal, professional and/or financial ramifications of their choice. It is difficult to find middle-aged architects truly happy with their career choices, though they may choose not to readily admit this doubt. Frankly, for the amount of education, licensing, and years of apprenticeship required by the architectural profession, relative low compensation range, retirement planning/funding, and real limits to career development and advancement are very troubling issues.

Also, when you visit an architectural office, large or small, do you ever notice that there are few older "white-haired" architects present? Where are all the old architects? I'm not talking about the handful of principal partners at a firm, I'm referring to all those architects who didn't make partner.

just depends on what your expectations are.

What is a lot of money is all relative, what you consider 'good' architecture, etc.

I'll leave my opinions out of here, but let's just say I left the profession, in a traditional sense, long ago.

I am very happy with my choices (and also my 7 years of arch school)

""Also, when you visit an architectural office, large or small, do you ever notice that there are few older "white-haired" architects present? Where are all the old architects? I'm not talking about the handful of principal partners at a firm, I'm referring to all those architects who didn't make partner.""


This has been bugging me for about 8 years since I graduated. Literally they dont exist. There is a profesional cliff where the heard just falls off one day. I worked at one large firm that had a few - they did punch list items on large hospital construction and then were canned in 02. All of them. Even more scary is the yunger ones, say in their 40's when they should be getting to be most well rounded and energetic - unless theyre partners or sole practitioners - gone. They dont seem to exist! Hell, theres not a whole lot of 30 somethings either. At my firm, theres the 57 y old boomer boss. Then me at 30, and then all recent grads about 22-25. No in between anymore in many places.

I see a lot of these older guys show up doing lunch-n-learn presentations.

Ill never forget at one large firm at a meeting to say good bye to a partner who was being forced out due to age, he got a little mad and said something to the effect of, " what do you people do to get work? When your at your country club, dont you talk? Dont you ask? Thats how we got work"

This old bastard still thought it was 1955 and the company was paying for their newly mint architects to take a 3 martini lunch and shoot links with gents. Maybe if he looked at his payroll he would have realized what an asshat he was.

we gots grey-hairs. they're all over this town. i haven't noticed any missing, but a lot of them are on their own/sole practitioners.

the only compensation (literally) any of us have gotten as far as i can tell is peanut m&ms... peanut fucking m&ms??.. i don't eat that shit...especially out of a big community glass dish.. no one here washes their hands properly.. every fucking week.. "peanut m&ms everyone.. hooray!!" are we fucking dogs for gods sake.. "here's your treats everyone..good doggies!"


stop buying peanut m&ms for us. i'll take my peanut m&m funds in money please.. even if it is only a few dollars over the last two years.. better than nothing (or peanut m&ms)

?

my experience is that most people in medium sized and big firms are careless or complacent, and most people in small firms - who are more involved and autonomous - tend to be satisfied, but i wouldnt say i know any architects who are happy.

we are mostly searching...lost, jaded...too far removed

we are visual people stuck in offices most of the time.

the happiest i am is when i get fully involved in a small project, am not withheld any information, get out on site, and generally dig into the project.

humans are not meant to be assembly line monkeys

the "happiest" architects i know are solo residential guys unwilling to design anything they dont love, and are relentless about not taking jobs they dont want to do... the kind of guys who will never retire and look at architecture as an old man's hobby.

I wish that I had a big bowl of peanut M&M's right now.

I found more happiness and more compensation in this field the more I moved away from what people traditionally think of architecture. Now I'm firmly entrenched in a PM role where I have little of anything to do with design....but....I get lots of client interaction, get to see the site/construction, work with contracts, have people working under me. Heck, I feel downright important. As a CAD tech I did not...nor was I paid like I was.

I think there is truth to many of those points you make. But we should also list all the good things so you aren't getting just the negative side. Think about how good parts are if we have to put up with what we do and still stick around! Please understand that it is easier and more interesting to rant and bitch about negative stuff than positive stuff.

'I'm flat broke, but at least once a week if not every day I actually, honestly, think these words to myself "I lvoe what I do. There is nothing in which I'd rather engage every day than exactly what I do."
'

-LB


noticed how she didnt say that she LOVES what she does....

don't do it.

I'll raise my hand for that one, I'm on my second job out of grad school and absolutely loving it.

I'll raise my hand for that one too ... I'm 30+ years out of school and I really enjoy my work and my coleagues (mostly) and my level of compensation most years. I've left the profession several times over the course of my career and always came back because I just love working in an architectural firm.

It's all about your own attitude. If you walk around with a cynical attitude or with a chip on your shoulder, you're not going to be happy in this work. If you look for creative ways to make your work rewarding and stick to it, you'll be just fine.

Good luck.

Add me to the happy list, as I am now (finally) well compensated. YAY!
I do have some hard times and get really frustrated - but that's just because I care a lot and want to do great things. I'd rather ride these highs and lows than be a bank teller or retail manager or something boring. All great rewards require sacrifice, dedication, perserverence, etc.

did you get a raise?

I love my life, I like my job, I like what I do a great deal, (I used to love my job but it didn't pay well, now I like my job and it pays pretty well, although I still need a raise, but don't we all) I seem to be happier in my life and my career than 90% of my friends who aren't architects. They all seem to hate their jobs, bemoan the fact that there is nothing they are passionate enough to make a career out of, AND feel ill-paid. So who knows. I'm a few years out of school and the kids I graduated with all are happy with their lives and arch. careers too. It's not a bad life.

yes. :)

Weird, we get lots of peanut m&ms where I work too. I like them, tho. But I'll chime in here and say that I feel quite happy with my current position (jr. architect in a small-but-rapidly growing, sole practitioner/dilettante-in-training, design-based firm in a major us city). Great work, great responsibility, great perks. Pay could be better, but I just got a small "good job" raise, so I'm pumped. I have lots of school debt and a shitty car, but I can't imagine doing anything else.

-andrew

I'd have to agree with Myriam, although I've moved somewhat outside of the typical path listed by the OP. Happiness with the profession fluctuates as you'd expect, but when I take a step back and compare myself to friends and family that have done non-architecture jobs my happiness level greatly compensates for any discrepancy in pay. Of course there are exceptions to this, but overall I'd stand by my assessment.

"the "happiest" architects i know are solo residential guys unwilling to design anything they dont love, and are relentless about not taking jobs they dont want to do... the kind of guys who will never retire and look at architecture as an old man's hobby."

Although not a solo residential guy I do have a smallish office of six who do some residential but mosta mix of work and I totally agree with scale of office affecting a lot about control. I often talked to a lot of very successful architects ( financially, career or success among peers ) and all have said that if they would do it again they would keep it smaller and not make the effort to grow as large a firm as they had. I got the impression that they felt that once the office got to a certain size they lost their personal input and signature, everything was done by committee which I think gives way to compromise, something most of us tend to want to avoid.

I would also add that what isn't said in that statement is the ability to control one's schedule, pattern of work, flexibility of project type and client. In effect you are your own boss and not some slave to a client. Its a subtle line but undeniably important to your perception and outlook on what you do. What that control gives you is the ability to balance work , life kids, freedom and that's what makes most of us happy not the loonies ( benjamin's ) in your bank account.

for me, the most frustrating thing about having an architecture practice is having to find client, needing to have clients, and having to do what clients want to me. i want to decide what kind of building goes where rather than having to wait for someone to decide that first and then hire me to make it look nice / do space-planning / coordinate construction / make an architectural statement for them. so maybe i should go into development [and be an architect too], but (1) i'm not sure where to get the capital for that (2) being an architect you hear so much about the dark world of development being a land of concern for nothing but profits (3) if i did go into development i'm afraid the designs would suffer due to lack of time and an increased interest in making everything cost-efficient. hmm.

Chase, the thing I've seen about developers and developer/architects recently (I've been observing them too, for the same reason) is that instead of the client telling you what to build where, money (AKA investors) tell you what to build where. The decision is still out of your hands. Unless you are privately wealthy and investing only your own capital in a project, you are going to have to attract investors. In order to attract investors, you have to make your project idea attractive--and this is entirely a monetary equation. "What can I put on this land that will generate the most possible sales income for my term of investment?" This is what your investors will ask you, over and over again, and frankly, design quality has a very minimal impact on that equation in today's market. So you end up at the same point, but you have had to deal with all kinds of really annoying and disillusioning financial questions along the way.

So I figure, better leave that stuff the client and leave me out. Then I don't have added risk, added political and legal entanglements (w/ investors, etc), and added stress. And I can just focus on design! ...even if it's within someone else's parameters. Maybe I'm cynical, but outside of independent wealth, I don't see a way out of that particular problem.

i'm happy planting trees or chopping them down. anything to reshape the face of the earth into my own likeness....

but really, we do this because we want to design and have part of making things.

there are lots of options available for folks with an architectural education that have nothing to do with real buildings: video game design, set design, web design, industrial design, store proprietor, medical student, artist, card shark, surfer, pilot. classmates have all gone on and done these things. So don't think you are limited to chasing after IDP and registration...

I've seen lots of white-hair guys (there were no women architects 40 years ago) still puttering around or giving lunch-n-learns.

Oh we old women are around, we just dye our hair so we don't looks so old.

I don't regret a minute of my 25 plus years in the profession, feel overcompensated, love what I do, would not change a thing. The only downside is that if you are going to be good at what you do, you must be willing to take on a lot of responibility and go the extra mile, so there is a lot of stress in that. I wake up in the middle of the night some times and have a near panic attach that I forgot to check some obscur code issue, or did I remember to send that email to the cient, or is the engineer really going to meet his deadline?

I think some people are unhappy with the profession because they either did not really know what it was about when they got into it, or they are not really very good at it. They may think they are spectacular designers, but if no one is buying it, maybe they are not as good as they think. And anyway, the PRACTICE of architecture is not just about design, it is also about building, communication, solving problems, serving the needs of the project, meeting a budget, managing the process to not drive the owner crazy, and a million other things. If you reach 50 and you are not either owning your own firm, a partner, or at least a highly compensated technical or design person, you probably were not on the top of your game when you were 35.

so how dire is the financial situation for architects? if i don't have a trust fund, am i going to be screwed? i don't care about money beyond a reasonable level of basics, which for me entails a new 1000+sf condo in Manhattan or West LA, some decent clothes, a nice vacation once or twice a year, and the ability to go eat at nice restaurants a few times a week without feeling guilty about it. am i off base??

yes you are off base, but because of your earlier post about not wanting clients, not wanting to have to have someone tell you where to put the building.

Oh, and don't go into development. Of course you have to make a profit in development, or you are a bankrupt developer. That does not necessarily mean crappy design, but for god's sake, what do you think pays for the building? It has to make money, or it will be a never built building.

making money is not a sin we should apologize for. You need to make money to create a sustainable business that can provide decent wages and benefits for employees, provide for infrastructure improvements and reinvestments in the buiding, and save some money for those occassional downturns.

What Chase said exactly describes what I was asking.

Having lived in west LA, and looked at places in NYC recently, I can say it's going to be while before you guys are going to be able to get that 1000 sf condo.

Thankfully there's more to the world than Venice and Manhattan.

well, I might prefer Coldwater Canyon to Venice... j/k

For me personally, I don't see the point in living somewhere if it's not at the apex of where civilization is right now... at that means if not Manhattan or West LA, then something like London, Munich, or Hong Kong...

damn, i either need to get a trust fund, or change my expectations about life. damn.

Start doing the Craigslist/spreadsheet thing now. And keep in mind that the best benchmark for housing costs is 1/3 of your post tax income, then round down from there.

what's the craigslist spreadsheet thing?

Yearly Salary * 2/3 equals Takehome Pay, multiply that by 1/3 and you get the amount you can spend on rent + utilities with enough for a reasonable standard of living left over.

Take this number to Craigslist and check out places you can afford. Always Google map the addresses on the ads (b/c Craigslisters always lie about the neighborhoods their properties are in) and then cross reference that with nearby subway stops. Imagine where you want to work and how long it will take you to get there from where you can afford to live.

Then factor in student loans ...

... but I'm happy, I swear I am!

... and remember that 'civilization' is not the end state of a one-dimensional scale. If the world were linear with one place leading and the rest trailing behind, I don't know if it would be worth living in.

You're an architect, space has at least three dimensions, right?

Personally, I think this describes the profession sometimes.

whoa, 765...

thats is mad science. like a kind of craigslist calculus for success.


..gotta go get a calculator ...and a map

Are you serious?

Yes, you're off base.

myriam, what do you mean "am i serious"? please explain. you think that small list of desires is unreasonable?

how much is a 1000 s.f. condo in west LA or manhattan?

Is Fazoli's what you mean by a nice restuarant?

By nice vacation, do you mean camping and fishing in the state park?