Well During my Materials and Methods class, my professor will nonchalantly bring up how we are having huge issues with architects who only work with-in the office, and really do not know anything beyond that realm. Meaning, they do not really understand the construction methods. Is this true? To the people who are in the arch. work force, do you see many architects that barely know anything about construction?
yes -- way too many people practicing in offices rarely, if ever, venture out on a construction site. it kinda like creating surgeons who don't know their way around an operating room -- sorta scary, huh?
My first pair of shoes I bought out of college were....
Steel cap work boots
Being on site / visiting site is one of the most educational activities you can do while in school, and after you get out. Sometimes employers don't encourage their younger staff / interns to go on site because they are more productive behind a desk. If you aren't getting construction site exposure, ask for it, because architects need to see what they draw isn't necessarily how its built!
an aspect to this that isn't talked about much is the part that's NOT about knowing 'how things go together'.
being on site is, as much as anything else, about understanding the relationships, understanding how the people on site give and take and how you can be part of that dynamic. hugely important.
if you don't know a 50pr cable from a pull-string, or why it's so hard to put the outlet where you wanted it AFTER the block is grouted solid, but you're willing to admit it, not act like a know-it-all, and allow someone to show you why it matters - and then work with them to a solution - sometimes they'll accept a harder solution that they wouldn't have accepted if you were coming off as a smart-ass overly-demanding stranger.
even if we are not builders, we need to understand where the builder is going thru in order for us to do our job.
not counting c.a., just in the role of a designer, you need to know about suppliers, lead times, availability and guarantees. otherwise you'll see your design value engineered to death during the bidding process.
and yes, there are architects who do not see this as their responsibility and think that the contractor and the client must adapt to their design.
Whoa...don't get me started. Epidemic is not a strong enough word to describe the current state of affairs. As the director of development for a large institution, I can tell you that lack of understanding of construction realities and lack of understanding of construction phase services is the two major problems we have with architects that we hire (and we hire some of the truly big name firms). It seems that few firms have someone (anyone) on staff with a serious understanding of construction and architectural construction phase services. Unfortunately, the design/construction documents boldly reveal this lack of understanding. I'm not expecting my architect to be the construction means/methods expert (I want my contractor to be that expert), but I desperately need my architect to be conversant, and to be able to prepare a design and detail it so it actually has a chance of being built.
This brings up a rather interesting situation i'm in, and I'd like to ask the room a question.
My boss, realizing I'm not a useless piece of shit after all and I deserved to be paid fairly, has offered me a steady paid gig working for the contractor side of our design-build firm. However, this morning, I interviewed with another firm and they are pretty much offering me a job to be an intern architect in their firm. Now both these job offers pay the same, and my current boss won't go over his offer for hourly compensation. I have yet to talk to the guys at the other firm if they may want to counter that offer with an increased wage but I'm doubting they'd go any higher than what they have stipulated. Bottom line, could I actually learn more working for a general contractor than I could as an intern architect? Could I get IDP credit working under a contractor? Because as far as I see it, the only other major issue besides pay is potential for growth and learning. Truth be told, nothing would make me happier than spending all day at a job site finding out how buildings actually get built, and I feel I may get more of that working for a GC/Design Build, than your everyday arch. firm. Any thoughts?
I'm all for working in the construction side of things (I think that will be my next gig when I get tired of custom residential design), but I don't believe you can get IDP on a contracting job, unless your supervisor is a registered architect.
Potentially you could do freelance drafting work for a licensed architect at night, to get your IDP credits. Doesn't that sound appealing?!
One of my best friends and mentors is a builder, but he started out being "the contractor" and I "the architect". He's given me great insight into a builder thinks, and getting a good project built is about teamwork.
i would say stick to an architecture firm if they promise field c.a. experience and specially if it's on many small projects, not just one big project.
But yes, I believe that architects need a better understanding of construction.
I think it's because I'm young that contractors treat me like a total dope. They don't realize that I've been working on type-V since mama gave me a hammer and told me to hit papa in the kneecap.
There has been a few times where the contractor would try to pull a fast one on me, but thanks to the experience I have with working in construction I could pick up on the BS right away. I really hate that part of the job though. Why can't contractors just be honest?
It seems to really piss them off when I call their bluff. I think contractors think of their whole trade as this sort of 'magic voodoo brain surgery' that nobody understands. With the way things are going in architecture and the next generation, I'm beginning to think it's going to be the case soon...
I should be a contractor and take advantage of the next generation of suckers... er... 'office architects', haha.
If his registration is current in the state in which you work, and he is acting in a supervisory role over your work, then yes you should be able to get IDP credit.
mkokimoto, What do you mean that Contractors will try to BS or Bluff you?
And for my final project for my materials and methods class, we all separately have to go to a construction job site and take photos of all the methods of construction we learned. First I thought it was going to be a drag cause I will have other stuff to complete (i.e. my portfolio for transferring) but it seems like a great idea for what I am hearing from you guys.
I worked for a contractor and I learned more about construction in those few summers working concstruction than I did in my entire architecutral education and professional work.
As far as architects not spending enough time on the site I agree, but... it's not always your decision to make when you're an employee.. I wanted to learn as much as I could, but I had the design seat in the office...
Well I think it depends on what type of firm you work with. Currently, I work for a very design oriented firm, rarely go on site, and rarely do any work beyond design developement. The only methods I am exposed too is line weights, and photoshop elevations.
Sunsetmac: Let's see... A month ago, a contractor once tried to pull a 2000 dollar change order on a 15 dollar circuit breaker for a 3 phase system that may have been incorrectly specified.
Arm me with a flathead screwdriver and the circuit breaker and I would do the work myself in about 10 minutes on a live bus.
apu, i'd go with the contractor job... but i'd go into with the thought that it will be a learning experience that you'll do for 3-5 years... you'll learn soooooooooooo much more being in the field all the time...
as LB said, if your boss is a registered architect acting in a supervisory role then you can still accrue IDP... if not, you can get a limited amount of credits in certain areas... look here for a description of all of NCARB's different situations...
i was in a similar position about 3 years ago when i left my firm to take a job as a project manager with a municipal government... i went into it knowing that it wasn't my dream job but that i could learn a ton... and i have... i spend about 50% of my time on job sites, and have tons of contact with contractors... i've really been able to see how the industry works from every point of view... as the client, as well as dealing with contractors/architects/engineers on a daily basis...
I did about the same thing. First worked for a design-build firm right out of college, got a lot of field exposure, learned a lot. Went to work for a very large community college with multiple campuses. Got to go into the field a lot and do project management that a normal architectural office would not offer. A few years down the line since ... I've worked for a pure general contractor, didn't last long, boss was an ass (registered architect of course!)(President of company was a good guy, he was chief of construction) Worked for several different design firms, currently at one that specializes in Healthcare, and are very design oriented. Lots of knowledgeable associates here, who have been exposed to lots in the field, but many younger guys who, like the way they treat me, only get to go to job site once or twice a year to take measurements, if that often. More go to meetings with client, which is great for schematics, but not much more. People here are getting shortchanged if you ask me.
Of course "traditional" firms sometime ask me why I didn't "pursue a traditional path". To me there is no traditional path. It's a load of horsepoop. Do what you can now, forget IDP and NCARB for the moment. You'll be glad you did.
If you go the GC route, I'd also suggest you do it with the view of it not being a long term career move, unless you find that being a builder is your true calling. Get in, learn as much as you can, and then get out.
Understand that GC is its own profession with a body of knoweledge at least as large as architecture. You dont dabble in it. Also - from the GC's Ive worked for be prepared for the longest and most stressfull hours of your life. Unless you truely love it, beware. Every day is a crisis in construction, and every decision is money made or lost.
yes, this is true. work construction for a year. then you know what you are drawing, you know how to design, you know what info to put on drawings, you know what info to note on details, you know how to dimension, you know how to detail.
ok, maybe you dont know "how" per se, you but you have a better understanding of how things work, etc.
it takes a while to integrate the knowledge into those honed skills, but if you don't know how to build you are lost...or you will be useless like so many architects out there...or useful as a monkey
there is no point in drawing something and not knowing what it is, what it does, what it is made of, how it is attached...unless you are in the early stages of design.
apurimac, beware of working for a contractor in an office, especially a big construction company. a lot of them hire architects and they end up doing kinda the same stuff. you might be stuck doing work you hate, being the "expert" without the knowledge, and NOT learning how things go together. Trades know how to build but a lot of general contractors are idiots too. lot's of commercial guys do nothing but schedules and estimates, and lots of resid guys are bozos.
I would say if you want to learn from a contractor, go into the field and work for a GC as a laborer doing pickup work framing, finish carpentry, you name it...but do the work. pick up a hammer, draw on some plywood...
or better yet, stay at the design build firm and get dirty building something once in a while.
Construction administration is really, really tough, but it's a good learning experience. My current project has been under construction for a year, and I visit the site once a week. I will definitely draw and approach things differently the next time around, on my next project as a result of this experience.
Similar to Steven Ward, my husband has asked things like, "Why is there a brick in the front seat of our car?" or "We should take the orange vests out of the back seat when we go on vacation."
One final thought: contractors notice when you wear "serious" steel toe boots.
Are there any women here who spend a lot of time on site or have a lot of construction experience? I honestly hate to bring this up, but I definitely see the value of knowing what you're doing with respect to construction... however, to be completely blunt about it, I'm worried about the level of respect I'll receive as a young blonde woman, no matter what my credentials are...
I'd like to work in the field for a summer, maybe, but I have visions of being laughed at by contractors.
Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this.
auntdahlia: I think there was a thread devoted to women on construction sites a while back. I haven't seen many women working on my projects, other than to clean things or do light lifting / transportation of light materials. I usually make it a point to say hello to them as I walk past them. I would imagine it isn't easy.
As a woman fulfilling the architect's role on the job site, I feel that it is important to dress nicely - khakis and a sturdy blouse - yet conservatively. (Once I made the mistake of wearing a v-neck shirt without thinking that my orange construction vest would cover it up. Oops.)
I've seen more women working on the PM/administrative side of construction. Some just stay in the trailer all day, which I feel is a waste of an opportunity to learn when there is a school of knowledge right outside the door.
Oct 20, 07 10:52 pm ·
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Office Architect Epidemic?
Well During my Materials and Methods class, my professor will nonchalantly bring up how we are having huge issues with architects who only work with-in the office, and really do not know anything beyond that realm. Meaning, they do not really understand the construction methods. Is this true? To the people who are in the arch. work force, do you see many architects that barely know anything about construction?
my car smells like the job site, the trunk is full of rolls of drawings and brick sample boards, and the mats are covered with red clay.
my wife won't ride in it any more.
yes -- way too many people practicing in offices rarely, if ever, venture out on a construction site. it kinda like creating surgeons who don't know their way around an operating room -- sorta scary, huh?
My first pair of shoes I bought out of college were....
Steel cap work boots
Being on site / visiting site is one of the most educational activities you can do while in school, and after you get out. Sometimes employers don't encourage their younger staff / interns to go on site because they are more productive behind a desk. If you aren't getting construction site exposure, ask for it, because architects need to see what they draw isn't necessarily how its built!
an aspect to this that isn't talked about much is the part that's NOT about knowing 'how things go together'.
being on site is, as much as anything else, about understanding the relationships, understanding how the people on site give and take and how you can be part of that dynamic. hugely important.
if you don't know a 50pr cable from a pull-string, or why it's so hard to put the outlet where you wanted it AFTER the block is grouted solid, but you're willing to admit it, not act like a know-it-all, and allow someone to show you why it matters - and then work with them to a solution - sometimes they'll accept a harder solution that they wouldn't have accepted if you were coming off as a smart-ass overly-demanding stranger.
architects need to work as part of a team.
even if we are not builders, we need to understand where the builder is going thru in order for us to do our job.
not counting c.a., just in the role of a designer, you need to know about suppliers, lead times, availability and guarantees. otherwise you'll see your design value engineered to death during the bidding process.
and yes, there are architects who do not see this as their responsibility and think that the contractor and the client must adapt to their design.
Whoa...don't get me started. Epidemic is not a strong enough word to describe the current state of affairs. As the director of development for a large institution, I can tell you that lack of understanding of construction realities and lack of understanding of construction phase services is the two major problems we have with architects that we hire (and we hire some of the truly big name firms). It seems that few firms have someone (anyone) on staff with a serious understanding of construction and architectural construction phase services. Unfortunately, the design/construction documents boldly reveal this lack of understanding. I'm not expecting my architect to be the construction means/methods expert (I want my contractor to be that expert), but I desperately need my architect to be conversant, and to be able to prepare a design and detail it so it actually has a chance of being built.
Building is the new not-building.
-andrew
"Building is the new not- building" -andrew
It is called the start of a recession.....hang onto your drawers!
This brings up a rather interesting situation i'm in, and I'd like to ask the room a question.
My boss, realizing I'm not a useless piece of shit after all and I deserved to be paid fairly, has offered me a steady paid gig working for the contractor side of our design-build firm. However, this morning, I interviewed with another firm and they are pretty much offering me a job to be an intern architect in their firm. Now both these job offers pay the same, and my current boss won't go over his offer for hourly compensation. I have yet to talk to the guys at the other firm if they may want to counter that offer with an increased wage but I'm doubting they'd go any higher than what they have stipulated. Bottom line, could I actually learn more working for a general contractor than I could as an intern architect? Could I get IDP credit working under a contractor? Because as far as I see it, the only other major issue besides pay is potential for growth and learning. Truth be told, nothing would make me happier than spending all day at a job site finding out how buildings actually get built, and I feel I may get more of that working for a GC/Design Build, than your everyday arch. firm. Any thoughts?
My vote is, go contractor! It will make you a much stronger designer if you see how it is done in the field.
thanks anti, I will seriously consider any input made here.
I'm all for working in the construction side of things (I think that will be my next gig when I get tired of custom residential design), but I don't believe you can get IDP on a contracting job, unless your supervisor is a registered architect.
Potentially you could do freelance drafting work for a licensed architect at night, to get your IDP credits. Doesn't that sound appealing?!
One of my best friends and mentors is a builder, but he started out being "the contractor" and I "the architect". He's given me great insight into a builder thinks, and getting a good project built is about teamwork.
i would say stick to an architecture firm if they promise field c.a. experience and specially if it's on many small projects, not just one big project.
I think I've seen this topic here before.
But yes, I believe that architects need a better understanding of construction.
I think it's because I'm young that contractors treat me like a total dope. They don't realize that I've been working on type-V since mama gave me a hammer and told me to hit papa in the kneecap.
There has been a few times where the contractor would try to pull a fast one on me, but thanks to the experience I have with working in construction I could pick up on the BS right away. I really hate that part of the job though. Why can't contractors just be honest?
It seems to really piss them off when I call their bluff. I think contractors think of their whole trade as this sort of 'magic voodoo brain surgery' that nobody understands. With the way things are going in architecture and the next generation, I'm beginning to think it's going to be the case soon...
I should be a contractor and take advantage of the next generation of suckers... er... 'office architects', haha.
Since my boss at the GC is still technically a registered architect, does that mean I can score IDP credit lb?
If his registration is current in the state in which you work, and he is acting in a supervisory role over your work, then yes you should be able to get IDP credit.
mkokimoto, What do you mean that Contractors will try to BS or Bluff you?
And for my final project for my materials and methods class, we all separately have to go to a construction job site and take photos of all the methods of construction we learned. First I thought it was going to be a drag cause I will have other stuff to complete (i.e. my portfolio for transferring) but it seems like a great idea for what I am hearing from you guys.
I worked for a contractor and I learned more about construction in those few summers working concstruction than I did in my entire architecutral education and professional work.
As far as architects not spending enough time on the site I agree, but... it's not always your decision to make when you're an employee.. I wanted to learn as much as I could, but I had the design seat in the office...
Well I think it depends on what type of firm you work with. Currently, I work for a very design oriented firm, rarely go on site, and rarely do any work beyond design developement. The only methods I am exposed too is line weights, and photoshop elevations.
That's not either of the firms I'll be dealing with at all mod, that was what I was doing in china though. Thanks for the input everybody!
Sunsetmac: Let's see... A month ago, a contractor once tried to pull a 2000 dollar change order on a 15 dollar circuit breaker for a 3 phase system that may have been incorrectly specified.
Arm me with a flathead screwdriver and the circuit breaker and I would do the work myself in about 10 minutes on a live bus.
apu, i'd go with the contractor job... but i'd go into with the thought that it will be a learning experience that you'll do for 3-5 years... you'll learn soooooooooooo much more being in the field all the time...
as LB said, if your boss is a registered architect acting in a supervisory role then you can still accrue IDP... if not, you can get a limited amount of credits in certain areas... look here for a description of all of NCARB's different situations...
i was in a similar position about 3 years ago when i left my firm to take a job as a project manager with a municipal government... i went into it knowing that it wasn't my dream job but that i could learn a ton... and i have... i spend about 50% of my time on job sites, and have tons of contact with contractors... i've really been able to see how the industry works from every point of view... as the client, as well as dealing with contractors/architects/engineers on a daily basis...
architphil-
I did about the same thing. First worked for a design-build firm right out of college, got a lot of field exposure, learned a lot. Went to work for a very large community college with multiple campuses. Got to go into the field a lot and do project management that a normal architectural office would not offer. A few years down the line since ... I've worked for a pure general contractor, didn't last long, boss was an ass (registered architect of course!)(President of company was a good guy, he was chief of construction) Worked for several different design firms, currently at one that specializes in Healthcare, and are very design oriented. Lots of knowledgeable associates here, who have been exposed to lots in the field, but many younger guys who, like the way they treat me, only get to go to job site once or twice a year to take measurements, if that often. More go to meetings with client, which is great for schematics, but not much more. People here are getting shortchanged if you ask me.
Of course "traditional" firms sometime ask me why I didn't "pursue a traditional path". To me there is no traditional path. It's a load of horsepoop. Do what you can now, forget IDP and NCARB for the moment. You'll be glad you did.
I think I'm leaning more towards the GC, unless the other firm wants to offer me more pay, but I don't think that is going to happen.
If you go the GC route, I'd also suggest you do it with the view of it not being a long term career move, unless you find that being a builder is your true calling. Get in, learn as much as you can, and then get out.
Understand that GC is its own profession with a body of knoweledge at least as large as architecture. You dont dabble in it. Also - from the GC's Ive worked for be prepared for the longest and most stressfull hours of your life. Unless you truely love it, beware. Every day is a crisis in construction, and every decision is money made or lost.
thanks for the heads up, i think it will only be a couple years of my life at the max, at least until i finish college
yes, this is true. work construction for a year. then you know what you are drawing, you know how to design, you know what info to put on drawings, you know what info to note on details, you know how to dimension, you know how to detail.
ok, maybe you dont know "how" per se, you but you have a better understanding of how things work, etc.
it takes a while to integrate the knowledge into those honed skills, but if you don't know how to build you are lost...or you will be useless like so many architects out there...or useful as a monkey
there is no point in drawing something and not knowing what it is, what it does, what it is made of, how it is attached...unless you are in the early stages of design.
apurimac, beware of working for a contractor in an office, especially a big construction company. a lot of them hire architects and they end up doing kinda the same stuff. you might be stuck doing work you hate, being the "expert" without the knowledge, and NOT learning how things go together. Trades know how to build but a lot of general contractors are idiots too. lot's of commercial guys do nothing but schedules and estimates, and lots of resid guys are bozos.
I would say if you want to learn from a contractor, go into the field and work for a GC as a laborer doing pickup work framing, finish carpentry, you name it...but do the work. pick up a hammer, draw on some plywood...
or better yet, stay at the design build firm and get dirty building something once in a while.
Yeah, I've taken the job at the design-build, thanks for the input guys! I really appreciate it!
Construction administration is really, really tough, but it's a good learning experience. My current project has been under construction for a year, and I visit the site once a week. I will definitely draw and approach things differently the next time around, on my next project as a result of this experience.
Similar to Steven Ward, my husband has asked things like, "Why is there a brick in the front seat of our car?" or "We should take the orange vests out of the back seat when we go on vacation."
One final thought: contractors notice when you wear "serious" steel toe boots.
boyles - you rock, i think the technical name is a form clamp
Are there any women here who spend a lot of time on site or have a lot of construction experience? I honestly hate to bring this up, but I definitely see the value of knowing what you're doing with respect to construction... however, to be completely blunt about it, I'm worried about the level of respect I'll receive as a young blonde woman, no matter what my credentials are...
I'd like to work in the field for a summer, maybe, but I have visions of being laughed at by contractors.
Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this.
auntdahlia: I think there was a thread devoted to women on construction sites a while back. I haven't seen many women working on my projects, other than to clean things or do light lifting / transportation of light materials. I usually make it a point to say hello to them as I walk past them. I would imagine it isn't easy.
As a woman fulfilling the architect's role on the job site, I feel that it is important to dress nicely - khakis and a sturdy blouse - yet conservatively. (Once I made the mistake of wearing a v-neck shirt without thinking that my orange construction vest would cover it up. Oops.)
I've seen more women working on the PM/administrative side of construction. Some just stay in the trailer all day, which I feel is a waste of an opportunity to learn when there is a school of knowledge right outside the door.
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