I've a house that is mostly brick save the roof area (three gables) and a main floor bump out. These areas have old cedar shingle siding that needs replacing. My question is, what is the cheapest way to do this while not looking like crap and maintaining durability (it is a wet, but not super cold climate - Seattle). Is corrugated steel easier/cheaper to install?
The triangular gable ends would be a bit tricky with corrugated iron, and if you were going to do it in iron, something nicer than a corrugated profile would look better (standing seam? wide pan?).
You could use timber weather board, or a slightly cheaper alternative could be compressed cement in a weatherboard profile.
Another option...grooved plywood panels with raised timber battens over the joints, painted.
New cedar shingles would be the default option... I am just of the (uninformed) opinion that labor for installation would be considerably more expensive than some other options... is this not true?
It sounds like you are planning on getting the work done by a builder. The cost for labor may be slightly higher due to the length of time to put up shingles, but then you'd have to weigh that against the cost of asking a builder to do something they're not too familiar with e.g. cut sheet metal at funny angles and flash it underneath your eaves etc. At the end of the day, it may just be about the same cost...save a bit on material, but pay more for labor.
Seattle has a similar wet clime to my home town. I think the plywood option could look very nice (think board and batten siding), and would be less material cost than cedar shingle or weatherboard. If its your home, go with the material you really like, even if it costs more. You may regret dumbing down the quality if you look at it everyday...
the studio, i have a feeling it was added at a later date (i hope). i think its interesting to see how architecture "weathers" most of the images we are pumped with in school, in literature/magazines, are glossy computer images or newly builts. but even five years after a project being built, it begins to show aging, and i don't know how well that's addressed by most architects... someone had posted pictures of one of hadid's earlier works that was all beat up, with trash all over the place, its kind of interesting to see those pictures...
It is interesting how the MVRDV house has greyed out...I saw it 4 years ago, all shiny and red. I thought they were metal panels (couldn't get too close, private property, you know).
Hadid's fire station at Vitra is odd. Not very well detailed either, so I wouldn't be surprised if it hasn't aged well.
from the drawings i've seen, the canopy was there from the beginining.
and hadid's fire station... there were a lot of issues with that one, let alone her non-existent drawings...
her other project in weil am rhein (LFOne) had a different project architect. it's in even worse shape. and her IBA wohnhaus in Berlin is a POS as well.
antipodean: waht do you mean by "weather board"? Vertical board and batten is a nice solution, I love how simultaneously modern and traditional it can look, but! I recall in Portland about 15 years ago a lawsuit by homeowners against builders using oriented strand board "clapboard" on their homes - the OSB sprouted mushrooms within a year.
In that damp NW climate, I think you're safest staying away from exterior materials that can't take humidity well - like OSB and plywood. A vertical board and batten can be achieved with planks of cedar varying 6 to 12 inches wide with a 1.5 batten also of cedar. The wider the planks are the higher the material cost will be, but that might be offset by the fewer number of battens required. It's also a familiar enough cladding method that a builder isn't likely to jack up the price out of fear.
the mvrdv double villa used a composite material... i think that it may be a rain screen system... it is something along the lines of an alucobond but is resin and wood fiber... i can't recall the name of the manufacturer... it does seem to have faded a bit over the years... but it still looks pretty nice...
Lb,
I've consulted my American colleagues, and the weatherboard I refer to is timber siding. I almost died when I saw OSB being used on the outside of buildings here (well, it is the desert)...it just crumbles with enough moisture, we can't use it as cladding back in NZ...interior use only.
Back home there has been a huge problem with leaky / rotting homes, and there are certainly materials and systems I would definitely steer clear of. If you were wanting to use plywood, it would have to be a treated ply, on a vented cavity system, not fixed directly to studs.
Board and batten looks sharp and is certainly more familiar = less expensive to install.
Certainteed owns the trademark to weatherboards. It's a fiber cement product...very durable...and most slightly experienced contractors can install the stuff. They also make 4'x8' sheets of the stuff for soffits...or plywood siding if you will. (like that idea antipodean...but good luck getting the city of seattle to approve it) They also have a shakes profile if you want to keep the same look but avoid the cost and maintenance of real cedar.
I'd say overall for cost, durability and environmental impact a fiber cement product is you best bet. Steel can look sexy but labor will be more and materials aren't exactly cheap unless you go super light gauge and loose any durability. Natural cedar is way expensive and requires more maintenance than fiber cement...more painting...it can rot/decay. Also isn't near as strong.
you're doing such a small area, i think you should just replace the cedar. corrogated metal siding sounds cheap and probably looks it. plywood sounds too modern and would be out of place on your traditional home. aqua's fiber cement suggestion will save some money, but that is becoming the home depot builder's material of choice. just splurge for the cedar. my guess is that your savings will only be in the hundreds for a cheaper substitute. and cedar will help maintain your resale value.
holz.box - For me it is more a question of cost. This is a new house to me with a lot of necessary repairs (plumbing, electrical, tuckpointing, etc) and the budget is limited. Also, I am not sure how some things like the aforementioned Prodema would look on a brick house (only the gable ends are currently shingled).
i agree, holz. if maxabee wanted architecture, mixing traditional and modern could be cool, but it justs sounds like more of a home improvement project than it does architecture.
that being said, i don't know if it's a great thing having architects give out advice free of charge, but hey, we're a generous lot, and it sounds like a small simple project, not the kind of project that you'd hire an architect for anyway.
Jafidler - I do like the idea of mixing modern materials with the brick, it's just that I need something that isn't prohibitively expensive and won't look like an iMac on a roll-top desk.
I think ideas for project materials is a reasonable topic for this forum. I've seen it in a number of threads. I asked here because I would expect Archinect members to have interesting and innovative ideas that I might not hear from a builder who is experienced with a limited range of materials.
I really do appreciate the generosity of members here but don't really feel like I am trying to get something that an architect might normally bill for. That said, I am not an architect so I don't really know how much like lawyers you can be (they'll send you an invoice if you look at them :) )
How much area are you covering? About how many changes in plane ie corners?
Shakes are a fairly inexspensive material compared to metal siding and the labor is fairly competitive as a reasonable amount of carpenters could do shakes. Metal is great for large uniterupted runs with lots of area.
Show us a pic of the existing building - Im curious to how shakes vs metal siding was determined -
Evilplatypus - the best image I can manage at the moment is this one from MSN bird-eye view.
This shows the southern elevation, areas outlined in yellow are the ones that are currently clad in painted cedar shingles. I didn't describe them correctly, as I forgot about the dormer on the top. You can't see the two gable ends here because they are on either side, but they are both there, under a steeply pitched roofline.
i thought the going rate for answers to posts was; 1-3: one beer each, 3-6: six pack each, 6-12: six pack good beer each, 12-24: whiskey each, 24+ good scotch each...?
wait LB - Cedar shakes have their place - but I would prefer satined, paint stained or varnished, def not painted. Metal as always would be cool but without better images it would be hard to see how new metal could ever tie into exist. cedar shakes. It would be like Tom Mayne and R.M. Stern got drunk and produced a love child who was confused on how to clad a building.
it makes more sense to me in the work of the foster project above, or in bart prince and bruce goff, who seem to understand the full potential of the shake...
whats odd to me is that the gabled end walls ( cedar)arent the same material as the side walls( brick) - what gives? Not a true masonry wall? I feel like the brick wants to at least follow the rim joist elevation around the house, transition to softer shakes, or panelized materials above. Certainly get rid of the painted cedar in what appears to be the entry. Im throwing up a little thinking about it.
Some more pix would be great - maybe we should have a design comp for maxbee's house.
EP. I bet its all wall and roof timber framing, with a single brick veneer (real brick, but not load bearing) tied back timber framing to the lower eave height.
Quite a common look for 1930s-1950s era bungalow-esk homes.
The gable ends / dormers are more commonly clad in weatherboard oops SIDING.
evilp, I love real cedar shingles - I initially posted that maxabee should just replace the bad shingles with new shingles, meaning natural finish NOT painted. It's only the paint on them to which I object. That picture you posted is gorgeous, and will weather beautifully.
Once upon a time I knew the difference between cedar shakes and cedar shingles. I could look it up now, but instead I'm going to go drink some cough medicine. I feel like hell.
Steven, someone did indeed post that continuous siding detail of the ARO project recently - I lust for that siding. But I'm too tired to go look it up now, see last sentence of paragraph above.
marine grade plywood with 1 or 2 by nominal lumber in a board and batten system, either in the traditional order of board under the batten, or the more contemporary look of board over batten, properly ventilated (as suggested by ap) by applying the system over girts with a weather resistant membrane applied over the substrate would be a proper application.
the materials should be sealed prior to installation to ensure proper coverage. this would also be true if you choose to reapply the cedar system, the shakes/shingles should be dipped in the stain to ensure complete coverage.
then again, maybe i've had too much cough syrup as well. . .
To glenn's very nice and helpful post above, I would also add that the wider the plywood "boards" are, the more "modern" they will look, but! the more likely they are to look lousy after a few years in damp, mossy Seattle. I'd stick to 8" max with plywood, and I think solid lumber is the better choice.
Oct 18, 07 6:33 am ·
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Total cost: Corrugated Steel vs Wood etc.
I've a house that is mostly brick save the roof area (three gables) and a main floor bump out. These areas have old cedar shingle siding that needs replacing. My question is, what is the cheapest way to do this while not looking like crap and maintaining durability (it is a wet, but not super cold climate - Seattle). Is corrugated steel easier/cheaper to install?
The triangular gable ends would be a bit tricky with corrugated iron, and if you were going to do it in iron, something nicer than a corrugated profile would look better (standing seam? wide pan?).
You could use timber weather board, or a slightly cheaper alternative could be compressed cement in a weatherboard profile.
Another option...grooved plywood panels with raised timber battens over the joints, painted.
Why not just replace the cedar shingles with new cedar shingles? They're pretty well proven in Seattle's damp, no?
I second LB
only they look like trash. just as cutler
Thanks antipodean!
New cedar shingles would be the default option... I am just of the (uninformed) opinion that labor for installation would be considerably more expensive than some other options... is this not true?
maxabee,
It sounds like you are planning on getting the work done by a builder. The cost for labor may be slightly higher due to the length of time to put up shingles, but then you'd have to weigh that against the cost of asking a builder to do something they're not too familiar with e.g. cut sheet metal at funny angles and flash it underneath your eaves etc. At the end of the day, it may just be about the same cost...save a bit on material, but pay more for labor.
Seattle has a similar wet clime to my home town. I think the plywood option could look very nice (think board and batten siding), and would be less material cost than cedar shingle or weatherboard. If its your home, go with the material you really like, even if it costs more. You may regret dumbing down the quality if you look at it everyday...
i really like the plywood facades that herzog + de meuron did waaay back....
check the h&dem 1978-1988 for details
studio frei, weil am rhein:
sperrholzhaus (plywood house), bottmingen
goetz collection
MVRDV
kbww huis, utrecht
gah, look at that overhang on the h&dem...
@ the sperrholzhaus? or the canopy @ the frei studio
the studio, i have a feeling it was added at a later date (i hope). i think its interesting to see how architecture "weathers" most of the images we are pumped with in school, in literature/magazines, are glossy computer images or newly builts. but even five years after a project being built, it begins to show aging, and i don't know how well that's addressed by most architects... someone had posted pictures of one of hadid's earlier works that was all beat up, with trash all over the place, its kind of interesting to see those pictures...
sorry to get off topic guys...
It is interesting how the MVRDV house has greyed out...I saw it 4 years ago, all shiny and red. I thought they were metal panels (couldn't get too close, private property, you know).
Hadid's fire station at Vitra is odd. Not very well detailed either, so I wouldn't be surprised if it hasn't aged well.
from the drawings i've seen, the canopy was there from the beginining.
and hadid's fire station... there were a lot of issues with that one, let alone her non-existent drawings...
her other project in weil am rhein (LFOne) had a different project architect. it's in even worse shape. and her IBA wohnhaus in Berlin is a POS as well.
antipodean: waht do you mean by "weather board"? Vertical board and batten is a nice solution, I love how simultaneously modern and traditional it can look, but! I recall in Portland about 15 years ago a lawsuit by homeowners against builders using oriented strand board "clapboard" on their homes - the OSB sprouted mushrooms within a year.
In that damp NW climate, I think you're safest staying away from exterior materials that can't take humidity well - like OSB and plywood. A vertical board and batten can be achieved with planks of cedar varying 6 to 12 inches wide with a 1.5 batten also of cedar. The wider the planks are the higher the material cost will be, but that might be offset by the fewer number of battens required. It's also a familiar enough cladding method that a builder isn't likely to jack up the price out of fear.
the mvrdv double villa used a composite material... i think that it may be a rain screen system... it is something along the lines of an alucobond but is resin and wood fiber... i can't recall the name of the manufacturer... it does seem to have faded a bit over the years... but it still looks pretty nice...
like trespa?
? stuff's expensive.
another composite, nice stuff, also expensive. i'm not sure how i feel about encasing wood in resin.
i think i'd rather just have a nicely detailed (ply)wood facade and save the money for some vola fixtures...
that's it... i couldn't recall the name... i pretty sure that mvrdv used the prodema... it's cool stuff but definitely expensive...
Lb,
I've consulted my American colleagues, and the weatherboard I refer to is timber siding. I almost died when I saw OSB being used on the outside of buildings here (well, it is the desert)...it just crumbles with enough moisture, we can't use it as cladding back in NZ...interior use only.
Back home there has been a huge problem with leaky / rotting homes, and there are certainly materials and systems I would definitely steer clear of. If you were wanting to use plywood, it would have to be a treated ply, on a vented cavity system, not fixed directly to studs.
Board and batten looks sharp and is certainly more familiar = less expensive to install.
Certainteed owns the trademark to weatherboards. It's a fiber cement product...very durable...and most slightly experienced contractors can install the stuff. They also make 4'x8' sheets of the stuff for soffits...or plywood siding if you will. (like that idea antipodean...but good luck getting the city of seattle to approve it) They also have a shakes profile if you want to keep the same look but avoid the cost and maintenance of real cedar.
I'd say overall for cost, durability and environmental impact a fiber cement product is you best bet. Steel can look sexy but labor will be more and materials aren't exactly cheap unless you go super light gauge and loose any durability. Natural cedar is way expensive and requires more maintenance than fiber cement...more painting...it can rot/decay. Also isn't near as strong.
you're doing such a small area, i think you should just replace the cedar. corrogated metal siding sounds cheap and probably looks it. plywood sounds too modern and would be out of place on your traditional home. aqua's fiber cement suggestion will save some money, but that is becoming the home depot builder's material of choice. just splurge for the cedar. my guess is that your savings will only be in the hundreds for a cheaper substitute. and cedar will help maintain your resale value.
I am glad I asked here. Clearly the right place :)
what's wrong w/ modern exterior on a traditional building? that's 30% of the projects here in seattle.
another composite is parklex
also, modern details in seattle add resale to a market that's already superinflated, if that's what you' are after.
holz.box - For me it is more a question of cost. This is a new house to me with a lot of necessary repairs (plumbing, electrical, tuckpointing, etc) and the budget is limited. Also, I am not sure how some things like the aforementioned Prodema would look on a brick house (only the gable ends are currently shingled).
yeah, no. i would avoid prodema @ all costs.
i agree, holz. if maxabee wanted architecture, mixing traditional and modern could be cool, but it justs sounds like more of a home improvement project than it does architecture.
that being said, i don't know if it's a great thing having architects give out advice free of charge, but hey, we're a generous lot, and it sounds like a small simple project, not the kind of project that you'd hire an architect for anyway.
Jafidler - I do like the idea of mixing modern materials with the brick, it's just that I need something that isn't prohibitively expensive and won't look like an iMac on a roll-top desk.
I think ideas for project materials is a reasonable topic for this forum. I've seen it in a number of threads. I asked here because I would expect Archinect members to have interesting and innovative ideas that I might not hear from a builder who is experienced with a limited range of materials.
I really do appreciate the generosity of members here but don't really feel like I am trying to get something that an architect might normally bill for. That said, I am not an architect so I don't really know how much like lawyers you can be (they'll send you an invoice if you look at them :) )
True J-fid. We shouldn't get too technical, Archinect isn't the forum for that.
I think it's safe to give opinions on materials though. Let's keep it at that.
don't worry about it, maxabee. good luck with your project.
How much area are you covering? About how many changes in plane ie corners?
Shakes are a fairly inexspensive material compared to metal siding and the labor is fairly competitive as a reasonable amount of carpenters could do shakes. Metal is great for large uniterupted runs with lots of area.
Show us a pic of the existing building - Im curious to how shakes vs metal siding was determined -
Evilplatypus - the best image I can manage at the moment is this one from MSN bird-eye view.
This shows the southern elevation, areas outlined in yellow are the ones that are currently clad in painted cedar shingles. I didn't describe them correctly, as I forgot about the dormer on the top. You can't see the two gable ends here because they are on either side, but they are both there, under a steeply pitched roofline.
Painted cedar shingles, yuck.
But if you want me to explain why I feel that way, I'll have to charge you my hourly rate ;-)
i thought the going rate for answers to posts was; 1-3: one beer each, 3-6: six pack each, 6-12: six pack good beer each, 12-24: whiskey each, 24+ good scotch each...?
liberty bell has 6234 comments. That is one well-soused archinector
wait LB - Cedar shakes have their place - but I would prefer satined, paint stained or varnished, def not painted. Metal as always would be cool but without better images it would be hard to see how new metal could ever tie into exist. cedar shakes. It would be like Tom Mayne and R.M. Stern got drunk and produced a love child who was confused on how to clad a building.
Heres saome nice shakes Shake Shake Shake
those shakes just don't feel right...
it makes more sense to me in the work of the foster project above, or in bart prince and bruce goff, who seem to understand the full potential of the shake...
anybody have any close ups of this siding? it's luscious:
i feel like someone posted a pic of this not long ago...
house by ARO on martha's vineyard.
whats odd to me is that the gabled end walls ( cedar)arent the same material as the side walls( brick) - what gives? Not a true masonry wall? I feel like the brick wants to at least follow the rim joist elevation around the house, transition to softer shakes, or panelized materials above. Certainly get rid of the painted cedar in what appears to be the entry. Im throwing up a little thinking about it.
Some more pix would be great - maybe we should have a design comp for maxbee's house.
EP. I bet its all wall and roof timber framing, with a single brick veneer (real brick, but not load bearing) tied back timber framing to the lower eave height.
Quite a common look for 1930s-1950s era bungalow-esk homes.
The gable ends / dormers are more commonly clad in weatherboard oops SIDING.
antipodean, you are correct in that it is only sided in brick... with a wood frame. House is 1950. I will try to get more pics up tonight.
evilp, I love real cedar shingles - I initially posted that maxabee should just replace the bad shingles with new shingles, meaning natural finish NOT painted. It's only the paint on them to which I object. That picture you posted is gorgeous, and will weather beautifully.
Once upon a time I knew the difference between cedar shakes and cedar shingles. I could look it up now, but instead I'm going to go drink some cough medicine. I feel like hell.
Steven, someone did indeed post that continuous siding detail of the ARO project recently - I lust for that siding. But I'm too tired to go look it up now, see last sentence of paragraph above.
it was in the name that building thread, SDR posted, i think
lb - a shake is split and a shingle is sawn. see: http://www.cedarbureau.org/faq/product.htm
marine grade plywood with 1 or 2 by nominal lumber in a board and batten system, either in the traditional order of board under the batten, or the more contemporary look of board over batten, properly ventilated (as suggested by ap) by applying the system over girts with a weather resistant membrane applied over the substrate would be a proper application.
the materials should be sealed prior to installation to ensure proper coverage. this would also be true if you choose to reapply the cedar system, the shakes/shingles should be dipped in the stain to ensure complete coverage.
then again, maybe i've had too much cough syrup as well. . .
To glenn's very nice and helpful post above, I would also add that the wider the plywood "boards" are, the more "modern" they will look, but! the more likely they are to look lousy after a few years in damp, mossy Seattle. I'd stick to 8" max with plywood, and I think solid lumber is the better choice.
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