I'm having a time of it in the office figuring out how to make a nice ANSI A and B threshold for a sliding patio door to a terrace in a mixed use building
our 2 issues are:
+ the waterproofing of the inside/outside transition [keeping the door threshold above a deck surface]
+and the stringent rules for accessibility requirements [only 1/2"!]
I have dear friends in chairs and heavily sympathize with the fact that they have the right to access and enjoy a terrace, they also have the right to not enjoy a flooded living room -
My bosses are thinking that the waterproofing is more important than the accessibility requirements and our details will reflect this, in the end not being entirely accessible.
Has anyone else dealt with this at all?
Right now I'm looking at "thresholds" but they seem to not exactly fit the ANSI requirements, maybe I'm just looking at the wrong product?
we make ours 1 1/2". If you have an issue with your planchecker giving you shit that they arent 1/2", ask him/her if they will accept all financial liability if the building floods at this location...
Some ADA thresholds on fiberglass doors have removable upsplashes on some assemblies, so you can justify the water proofing until the user decides to remove it them selves.
if they're private terraces for private residences i wouldn't think they all have to be accessible. refer to the fair housing act guide for how many, if any, need to be accessible for this particular purpose. i like the above idea in those cases.
i just asked my boss about a house addition/remodel project that he did for a client on a wheelchair. he said the building dept. didn't require it to be accessible since it's private. (this is in l.a. btw)
thanks everyone - I'm working for a boutique developer and the city is requiring us to have a certain # of ANSI A and B units for this project [we drew it all as FHA, but alas] - We normally don't do things this big so its a pretty intense learning experience right now.
I guess its more important to be able to retrofit the thresholds for a specific need like a chair then to intrinsically flood people out.
mdler, your comment seems in line with what my bosses are saying, we don't have a planchecker though - just have to weigh one potential lawsuit over another... ?
the el trains here tend to land a good 1 1/2"+ above and below the platforms at accessible stations.. (and often with at least that much gap)... and yeah, i've seem em often just roll right over it without blinking an eye. but just as mdler said that's not the issue, and i'd bet some wheelchair users might just not be as adept as others.. it is a human operated machine after all and takes some skill.
hell, ive seen some people in wheelchairs roll right over a 4" sidewalk curb.
stupid question maybe but why not just do the extra inch or so and create a little ramp that meets code... i mean, i could be wrong but a 1 1/2" bump up seems like it may be high enough yet invisible enough to be a tripping hazard anyway for persons with total use of their legs.. (especially when alcohol is involved, and it is a terrace).. i could be wrong.
Is is possible to lower the opening below the level of the patio? I can't tell if this is an at grade or on an upper level application (mixed use in chicago means the residences are second floor and higher). If its an upper floor, with proper flashing, you should be able to drain any water back under your decking.
I think that the threshold issue may have more to do with being a tripping hazzard for people walking than for people in wheelchairs. Wheelchairs can easily navigate this differrence, but a person could stub their toe
Here in Los Angeles, we need to make units adaptable, and not accessible. (Please note that I'm not familar with residential in other states, only commercial.) An easy way to get our door threshold a comfortable way above the patio could be covered as follows:
Since the kitchen sink needs to be 'adaptable' without the use of special tools, etc... we need to make the bottom portion (interior cabinet base) removable.
Being that it will only be removed when adapted, it would be very easy to make this into a 2 1/2" ramp. (cabinets a-boot 30" deep, 1:12 slope) If we make this 'wedge' shaped cabinet portion out of a hard, durable weather resistant material, such as my last meatloaf, we can also attach instructions using a placard to place this 'wedge' at the base of the door on the outside. The threshold can be 3" above the the threshold and still have only a 1/2" transition. If we're not allowed to have a transition without a level landing, we can just make the threshold 2 1/2" above the deck surface.
There is no code issue which states this is allowable and this could be shot down by a know-nothing plan checker. However, the reality is common sense. We're making lemons into lemonade. Or my cooking into something useful.
Besides, when a unit does need to be converted, where do those pieces of cabinetry end up at? On the deck?
If the patio is on the ground, it is a very bad idea. The mixed use type confuses me. I'm wondering if this is more of a deck on sleepers over a roof type of situation. It IS possible to do this if that is the situation - its not a great way to do it, you need a good GC, the right sliding door, proper flooring inside... but it can be done.
codes and realities
Hi Archinectors:
I'm having a time of it in the office figuring out how to make a nice ANSI A and B threshold for a sliding patio door to a terrace in a mixed use building
our 2 issues are:
+ the waterproofing of the inside/outside transition [keeping the door threshold above a deck surface]
+and the stringent rules for accessibility requirements [only 1/2"!]
I have dear friends in chairs and heavily sympathize with the fact that they have the right to access and enjoy a terrace, they also have the right to not enjoy a flooded living room -
My bosses are thinking that the waterproofing is more important than the accessibility requirements and our details will reflect this, in the end not being entirely accessible.
Has anyone else dealt with this at all?
Right now I'm looking at "thresholds" but they seem to not exactly fit the ANSI requirements, maybe I'm just looking at the wrong product?
http://www.hagerhinge.com/catalog/prodGroup.asp?c=47&p=804#pg804
thanks for any help or inspirations
we make ours 1 1/2". If you have an issue with your planchecker giving you shit that they arent 1/2", ask him/her if they will accept all financial liability if the building floods at this location...
Some ADA thresholds on fiberglass doors have removable upsplashes on some assemblies, so you can justify the water proofing until the user decides to remove it them selves.
:-p
if they're private terraces for private residences i wouldn't think they all have to be accessible. refer to the fair housing act guide for how many, if any, need to be accessible for this particular purpose. i like the above idea in those cases.
i just asked my boss about a house addition/remodel project that he did for a client on a wheelchair. he said the building dept. didn't require it to be accessible since it's private. (this is in l.a. btw)
thanks everyone - I'm working for a boutique developer and the city is requiring us to have a certain # of ANSI A and B units for this project [we drew it all as FHA, but alas] - We normally don't do things this big so its a pretty intense learning experience right now.
I guess its more important to be able to retrofit the thresholds for a specific need like a chair then to intrinsically flood people out.
mdler, your comment seems in line with what my bosses are saying, we don't have a planchecker though - just have to weigh one potential lawsuit over another... ?
the ADA lawsuit will cost a lot less then the flooding and subsequent problems lawsuit
forgive my ignorance, but couldn't a wheelchair negotiate a 1 1/2" threshold? Couldn't one just roll over it?
Apurimac
thats not the point (said sarcastically)
the el trains here tend to land a good 1 1/2"+ above and below the platforms at accessible stations.. (and often with at least that much gap)... and yeah, i've seem em often just roll right over it without blinking an eye. but just as mdler said that's not the issue, and i'd bet some wheelchair users might just not be as adept as others.. it is a human operated machine after all and takes some skill.
hell, ive seen some people in wheelchairs roll right over a 4" sidewalk curb.
stupid question maybe but why not just do the extra inch or so and create a little ramp that meets code... i mean, i could be wrong but a 1 1/2" bump up seems like it may be high enough yet invisible enough to be a tripping hazard anyway for persons with total use of their legs.. (especially when alcohol is involved, and it is a terrace).. i could be wrong.
Is is possible to lower the opening below the level of the patio? I can't tell if this is an at grade or on an upper level application (mixed use in chicago means the residences are second floor and higher). If its an upper floor, with proper flashing, you should be able to drain any water back under your decking.
I think that the threshold issue may have more to do with being a tripping hazzard for people walking than for people in wheelchairs. Wheelchairs can easily navigate this differrence, but a person could stub their toe
crowbert
please stay away from waterproofing details for any of my projects
Here in Los Angeles, we need to make units adaptable, and not accessible. (Please note that I'm not familar with residential in other states, only commercial.) An easy way to get our door threshold a comfortable way above the patio could be covered as follows:
Since the kitchen sink needs to be 'adaptable' without the use of special tools, etc... we need to make the bottom portion (interior cabinet base) removable.
Being that it will only be removed when adapted, it would be very easy to make this into a 2 1/2" ramp. (cabinets a-boot 30" deep, 1:12 slope) If we make this 'wedge' shaped cabinet portion out of a hard, durable weather resistant material, such as my last meatloaf, we can also attach instructions using a placard to place this 'wedge' at the base of the door on the outside. The threshold can be 3" above the the threshold and still have only a 1/2" transition. If we're not allowed to have a transition without a level landing, we can just make the threshold 2 1/2" above the deck surface.
There is no code issue which states this is allowable and this could be shot down by a know-nothing plan checker. However, the reality is common sense. We're making lemons into lemonade. Or my cooking into something useful.
Besides, when a unit does need to be converted, where do those pieces of cabinetry end up at? On the deck?
If the patio is on the ground, it is a very bad idea. The mixed use type confuses me. I'm wondering if this is more of a deck on sleepers over a roof type of situation. It IS possible to do this if that is the situation - its not a great way to do it, you need a good GC, the right sliding door, proper flooring inside... but it can be done.
I assume you are already sloping the patio away at 2%?
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