it's hard to use a material in creative and unconventional ways when the material fails to perform in standard and conventional applications.
anyone specifying eifs nowadays is careful enough to ensure that all the standard specs are being followed; so you will be hard pressed to find anyone using it in an unconventional way;
even so, a lot of contractors don't insure their work on it. When I worked for one, it was written as a special provision in any contract including EIFS that that portion of work was uninsured, because our insurance rates would be too high if we included it. We would basically tell the clients flat-out that we didn't like to work with it because it was a crap material.
not illegal in florida, but insurance rates for owners are significantly higher for eifs bldgs. nevertheless, publicly funded operations without a ton of 'capital projects' money in the bank (like a public hospital or school) sometimes opt for the lower up-front cost of eifs and pay the higher monthly insurance bill with their tax dollars...
A lot of the historic problems with EIFS (and people's skittishness about it) is due to crap installation. Stick to legit installer and a known brand (Sto for example), and detail it correctly and it performs fine. Like any material, if it is poorly manufactured, detailed or installed it is going to suck. Period.
I can't point to any examples by anyone hip - young dutch and/or japanese architects don't use it. Eisenman used it on his horrendous (IMHO) DAAP building at Cincinnati - I haven't been there since it opened so I have no idea how it is holding up. In any case, don't hold it against the product - Eisenman can't make anything look good.
the EIFS on the DAAP building has failed. Contrary to your support of it, the material doesnt breath what-so-ever, which is a bad thing for buildings. If any water does get in (an it will regardless of the quality and skill of the instillation), it will not have the chance to evaporate itself out of the wall system. This will cause a number of problems (mold, rust, rot, etc)
Also, the EIFS material is not strong what-so-ever. If it gets hit, it can fracture, allowing water and moisture to get into the wall cavity
if water dose get in, a drainage cavity at the bottom of the wall assumes that the water will drain out the bottom. If there is any water in the wall, and it heats up, it can turn into moisture and spread throughout the wall cavity
only time ive ever used (been ordered to use) eifs is as part of retail storefronts because its a super-cheap material that is (can be) bright, colorful, easy to cut and manipulate, and intended to not last more than about 10 years (if that) by which time leases will be up and signage/styles will have changed and the shit will be ripped down anyway... fortunately i haven't had to be involved with that sort of thing in many many years.
the nice thing about it is that indeed you can easy cut it up to make fake cornices, extrusions and embossings for lettering and logos, basically like construction paper and foamboard in school.
it doesn't breathe yes but its possible to use it in such a way that it only hurts itself, you could put it over old construction (literally pasted on top, which i've done before..really classy...looks like a couple of the ones from simples' link did that..), or on top of a sort of independent cavity system as janosh said... mdler is right about water getting in the cavity but if its detailed right it hopefully shouldn't infiltrate the building.. but the eifs might be ruined in a few years.
and i'd recommend you don't put it at human/vehicle contact height at all.... isn't the 'fiber matte' pretty much over the whole thing?.. even still you can pretty easily punch a hole or dent into it.
michael jordan a couple of years ago if i recall had huge problems with it on his highland park house.. might be worth investigating.. and for the record i also think it is crap, even if it does get detailed well and lasts.. i just looks cheap, always, in my opinion.
Yeah... it's not pretty - you are never going to choose it over clear stained vertical grain doug fir. But all I'm saying is that has applications where it works better than any other option. If you have to turn an uninsulated 300,000 SF 2 story warehouse with 12" block walls into office space and bring the envelope up to R-17, nothing else is competitive.
Does anyone else find it funny that a man, I'll even say a sports legend, that is worth over $200 million would spec EIFS on their own private residence?
a chain restaurant along our freeway burnt up recently because someone dropped a lit cigarette on the white gravel landscaping along the perimeter of the building. it caught some litter on fire which caught the eifs on fire which took off, leaving the building a total loss by the time they got the fire contained.
well, it was already a total loss. let's just say the restaurant had to close because the rain could get in.
would it help to call it stucco? eifs sounds too much like dufus (which is also a pretty lame word). of course, it's gonna get a bad rep with a name like that.
i was waiting for that. check this out, from the first paragraph of the eifs wikipedia page. now this guy has a chip on his shoulder about calling eifs stucco.
EIFS is not 'stucco' in the sense of the word stucco. Traditional stucco is often called Portland Cement Plaster, and is a centuries-old non-insulating material. Stucco consists of sand, Portland Cement, and water, and is a hard, dense, thick, non-insulating material. EIFS is a modern, lightweight synthetic wall cladding that includes foam plastic insulation and thin synthetic coatings. There are also specialty stuccos that use synthetic materials but no insulation, and these are also not EIFS either. A common example is what is called one-coat stucco, which is a thick, synethic stucco applied in a single layer (traditional stucco is applied in 3 layers). There is also an EIFS-like product called a Direct-Applied Finish System (or DAFS), which is essentially an EIFS but without the insulation - this product is also not EIFS either, and has quite different characteristics.
so eifs-clad buildings burn easily huh??.....hmmm....
perhaps i can get an eifs installer to include a fuse at the wall base and take a picture.
i just remembered that the fire department doesn't allow us to put eifs in a horizontal application - apparently they dislike having molten balls of plastic drop on them while entering a burning building.
I personally think EIFS is garbage, with a very dim future, for multiple reasons. A similar monolithic appearance may be achieved using DEFS, which is essentially the same composite system but with cement board used in lieu of the Foam....but it looks like EIFS. It's cavities insulated like a typical stick-built wall. If we are FORCED to use it by a developer, the sandwich is:
DEFS Coating o/Cement Board o/Pleated Tyvek o/Dens-Glas (or Dens-Shield) o/Metal Studs w/5/8" GWB @Int.
Control Joints and/or construction joints are simple spaces between Cement Boards filled with sealant or PVC reveals.
I don't think there are any interesting ways of using EIFS, but there are practical uses for it. On the building I'm designing, the rear lot line wall is reinforced block. Considered using ground face block, but then you have to insulate inside or use special blocks that are insulated and provide space for rebar and grout. Batt insulation on the inside would work except that this would create a deeper wall section at the elevator and stair shafts. The building envelope consultant insists that Water Drainage EIFS will perform fine.
It's too late for me to change the design, but I would like to hear any suggestions the EIFS haters have for alternatives.
use a thinner ground face block (4-6" if you don't need 8" structurally) add rigid insul and furring strips on the inside. even if you have to go with an 8" block adding 2" rigid insul and 1/2" gyp bd, you're only adding 2 1/2" to the inside face of the wall. hope your design isn't squeezed so tight you can't spare 2 1/2";)
Sep 9, 07 8:40 pm ·
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Efis material; Any interesting ways of using?
Anyone know of any projects that used efis in a creative, unconventional way?
it's hard to use a material in creative and unconventional ways when the material fails to perform in standard and conventional applications.
anyone specifying eifs nowadays is careful enough to ensure that all the standard specs are being followed; so you will be hard pressed to find anyone using it in an unconventional way;
even so, a lot of contractors don't insure their work on it. When I worked for one, it was written as a special provision in any contract including EIFS that that portion of work was uninsured, because our insurance rates would be too high if we included it. We would basically tell the clients flat-out that we didn't like to work with it because it was a crap material.
I have a friend who has an EIFS doormat. It's makes a pretty good doormat.
That's about as much exploring with the material I would ever do.
how about strapping some to you car to protect it from those pesky door dings?
Last I heard it was actaully illegal in several states.
my professional liability insurance application has a simple and revealing question, "have you specified EIFS on any projects?"
nuff said for me.
not illegal in florida, but insurance rates for owners are significantly higher for eifs bldgs. nevertheless, publicly funded operations without a ton of 'capital projects' money in the bank (like a public hospital or school) sometimes opt for the lower up-front cost of eifs and pay the higher monthly insurance bill with their tax dollars...
I know that Proctor and Gamble will not buy houses for their executives that are built with EIFS
Protor and Gamble....weren't they into witch craft....seems like their labels were caught up in that fray of searchism...a while back.
f'in eifs
A lot of the historic problems with EIFS (and people's skittishness about it) is due to crap installation. Stick to legit installer and a known brand (Sto for example), and detail it correctly and it performs fine. Like any material, if it is poorly manufactured, detailed or installed it is going to suck. Period.
I can't point to any examples by anyone hip - young dutch and/or japanese architects don't use it. Eisenman used it on his horrendous (IMHO) DAAP building at Cincinnati - I haven't been there since it opened so I have no idea how it is holding up. In any case, don't hold it against the product - Eisenman can't make anything look good.
but i don't have anything to contribute to the eifs discussion
Janosh
the EIFS on the DAAP building has failed. Contrary to your support of it, the material doesnt breath what-so-ever, which is a bad thing for buildings. If any water does get in (an it will regardless of the quality and skill of the instillation), it will not have the chance to evaporate itself out of the wall system. This will cause a number of problems (mold, rust, rot, etc)
Also, the EIFS material is not strong what-so-ever. If it gets hit, it can fracture, allowing water and moisture to get into the wall cavity
i know a project where eifs is used in an unconventional way... and i guess you could say 'creative' too.
its the 'mineral palace' hotel on main street in deadwood, sd.
its unconventional because every single other building on that street is brick
and its creative because instead of at least attempting to make a building that fits in with the historical character, it completely shatters it.
if i could choose any building to smite, that would be right up near the top of my list.
don't use eifs... it's crap
Proper detailing calls for a drainage cavity which allows water to get out just like in a cavity wall. Fiber matte is used at areas subject to impact.
Janosh
if water dose get in, a drainage cavity at the bottom of the wall assumes that the water will drain out the bottom. If there is any water in the wall, and it heats up, it can turn into moisture and spread throughout the wall cavity
MATERIALS THAT DONT BREATH ARE BAD
JUST JOKING
John D. Anosh
Regional Sales Manager
[email protected]
JUST JOKING
in response to Sandmansd and all the other eifs-haters out there, you will all love the new Dryvit Custom Brick!
http://www.dryvit.com/fileshare/doc/us/description/ds227.htm
only time ive ever used (been ordered to use) eifs is as part of retail storefronts because its a super-cheap material that is (can be) bright, colorful, easy to cut and manipulate, and intended to not last more than about 10 years (if that) by which time leases will be up and signage/styles will have changed and the shit will be ripped down anyway... fortunately i haven't had to be involved with that sort of thing in many many years.
the nice thing about it is that indeed you can easy cut it up to make fake cornices, extrusions and embossings for lettering and logos, basically like construction paper and foamboard in school.
it doesn't breathe yes but its possible to use it in such a way that it only hurts itself, you could put it over old construction (literally pasted on top, which i've done before..really classy...looks like a couple of the ones from simples' link did that..), or on top of a sort of independent cavity system as janosh said... mdler is right about water getting in the cavity but if its detailed right it hopefully shouldn't infiltrate the building.. but the eifs might be ruined in a few years.
and i'd recommend you don't put it at human/vehicle contact height at all.... isn't the 'fiber matte' pretty much over the whole thing?.. even still you can pretty easily punch a hole or dent into it.
michael jordan a couple of years ago if i recall had huge problems with it on his highland park house.. might be worth investigating.. and for the record i also think it is crap, even if it does get detailed well and lasts.. i just looks cheap, always, in my opinion.
ant farm?
coaster?
rigid insulation behind brick?
dartboard?
display cake in south-facing bakery window?
Yeah... it's not pretty - you are never going to choose it over clear stained vertical grain doug fir. But all I'm saying is that has applications where it works better than any other option. If you have to turn an uninsulated 300,000 SF 2 story warehouse with 12" block walls into office space and bring the envelope up to R-17, nothing else is competitive.
Does anyone else find it funny that a man, I'll even say a sports legend, that is worth over $200 million would spec EIFS on their own private residence?
n_i bet he didn't even know what eifs was...maybe now he does...it's sad that an architect spec'd eifs for a sports legend's private residence...
only the highest quality of materials for the highest quality of design, right?
EFIS is a material with no soul. It belongs in temporary packaging, not on the exterior of buildings. Anyone tried acetone on EFIS?
a chain restaurant along our freeway burnt up recently because someone dropped a lit cigarette on the white gravel landscaping along the perimeter of the building. it caught some litter on fire which caught the eifs on fire which took off, leaving the building a total loss by the time they got the fire contained.
well, it was already a total loss. let's just say the restaurant had to close because the rain could get in.
would it help to call it stucco? eifs sounds too much like dufus (which is also a pretty lame word). of course, it's gonna get a bad rep with a name like that.
but it's not stucco. we could CALL it "not-stucco", maybe.
i was waiting for that. check this out, from the first paragraph of the eifs wikipedia page. now this guy has a chip on his shoulder about calling eifs stucco.
EIFS is not 'stucco' in the sense of the word stucco. Traditional stucco is often called Portland Cement Plaster, and is a centuries-old non-insulating material. Stucco consists of sand, Portland Cement, and water, and is a hard, dense, thick, non-insulating material. EIFS is a modern, lightweight synthetic wall cladding that includes foam plastic insulation and thin synthetic coatings. There are also specialty stuccos that use synthetic materials but no insulation, and these are also not EIFS either. A common example is what is called one-coat stucco, which is a thick, synethic stucco applied in a single layer (traditional stucco is applied in 3 layers). There is also an EIFS-like product called a Direct-Applied Finish System (or DAFS), which is essentially an EIFS but without the insulation - this product is also not EIFS either, and has quite different characteristics.
so eifs-clad buildings burn easily huh??.....hmmm....
perhaps i can get an eifs installer to include a fuse at the wall base and take a picture.
i just remembered that the fire department doesn't allow us to put eifs in a horizontal application - apparently they dislike having molten balls of plastic drop on them while entering a burning building.
i swear i wasn't the one who wrote that wikipedia passage.
I personally think EIFS is garbage, with a very dim future, for multiple reasons. A similar monolithic appearance may be achieved using DEFS, which is essentially the same composite system but with cement board used in lieu of the Foam....but it looks like EIFS. It's cavities insulated like a typical stick-built wall. If we are FORCED to use it by a developer, the sandwich is:
DEFS Coating o/Cement Board o/Pleated Tyvek o/Dens-Glas (or Dens-Shield) o/Metal Studs w/5/8" GWB @Int.
Control Joints and/or construction joints are simple spaces between Cement Boards filled with sealant or PVC reveals.
what is pleated tyvek?
the only advantage of EIFS that i can think of is that the insulative layer is on the weather side of the stud to minimize the thermal bridging.
Stuccowrap:
Pleats Are Back!
[img]http://www.demandproducts.com/tyvekwrp.jpg
[/img]
[img]http://www.demandproducts.com/tyvekwrp.jpg
[/img]
so where are the 'pleats' in that link?
you'll figure it out.
I've spent enough time time this half-ass building system.
Masonry is King!
thanks for the help...
I don't think there are any interesting ways of using EIFS, but there are practical uses for it. On the building I'm designing, the rear lot line wall is reinforced block. Considered using ground face block, but then you have to insulate inside or use special blocks that are insulated and provide space for rebar and grout. Batt insulation on the inside would work except that this would create a deeper wall section at the elevator and stair shafts. The building envelope consultant insists that Water Drainage EIFS will perform fine.
It's too late for me to change the design, but I would like to hear any suggestions the EIFS haters have for alternatives.
use a thinner ground face block (4-6" if you don't need 8" structurally) add rigid insul and furring strips on the inside. even if you have to go with an 8" block adding 2" rigid insul and 1/2" gyp bd, you're only adding 2 1/2" to the inside face of the wall. hope your design isn't squeezed so tight you can't spare 2 1/2";)
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