this was something i posted on another thread, but though it might be worthy of its own topic.
i would be curious to know how many constuction companies are using BIM. has anyone worked for an architecture firm that has been able to issue a 3D BIM model, bypassing CDs altogether? what GC were you working with on the project? how did that work with subs? was the steel fabricator using BIM? the curtain waller? i'd love to hear how integrated this process is; any info or anecdotes would be much appreciated.
Don't forget permitting. We will always need to produce "dumb" drawings until permitting agencies get plugged into BIM, and I don't see that happening anytime soon.
maybe, i need to revise the question a bit. to what extent are you using BIM in the drawing and construction process? is it facilitating detailing in the drawing process? are you using it in fabrication of materials? are contractors at all conversant with the software?
We don't use BIM ourselves, but the steel subcontractor on our biggest job does, and this put me in the role of steel coordinator since I was the only one in the office who felt confident that I could understand everything they were trying to tell us with the model. It was an interesting experience- any time I would find something that was obviously bad, they would reply "oh, well that part of the model is wrong." but any other time claimed the model to be 100% correct. Maybe this is a result of it being an early trial of BIM and they're just not great at it yet? Anyway, it was hard to work with when they were able to use that as a cop-out.
i know that BECK Construction has really jumped into the BIM world... i'm not sure if they're doing it on projects with other architects or just with their in-house architecture group though... they are giving a presentation on their experience with BIM at the upcoming AIAFLA Emerging Professional's Conference (forgive the plug, i'm on the steering committee)...
also, you may want to check out the lecture given by Gregg Pasquarelli of SHoP Architects at Harvard... you can download the podcasts about halfway down on this page... they seem to use BIM (or BIM type stuff) a lot... and they show the "construction documents" that they used for one of their projects...
Not to the extent you outline, but I'm currently working on a project in which the contractor has required all the major subs to model their portions of the work. These are cross-checked with the arch and structural portions using Navisworks for collision detection. It is worth noting that these arch and structural models were created by the contractor for this purpose. We are using Revit and have given them our model at points during the design, but they rebuild the model based on their experience and to setup for things like phasing and sequencing down the road. I don't think it's going as far as manufacturing, but there is supposed to be some on-site access to the model to give the various subs access to all this information. We'll see how it works.
i got a mail about Parametrics in Rhino and Europeans can attend?
ParaCloud™ for Rhino 4.0 - A Generative Parametric Design Workshop
ParaCloud and McNeel Europe offer a 2-day open workshop for educators.
ParaCloud is a low-cost software solution that converts an Excel™ spreadsheet into a powerful parametric modeler that drives CAD tools and extends its abilities. ParaCloud powers Rhinoceros with generative design capabilities and provides parametric control to accurately and intuitively edit your design for fabrication, construction and performative studies.
Click on the dates below for complete program details and to register free of charge. (Space is limited, sign up early).
frit, are you talking MEP coordination? interestingly, i've found structural engineers and MEP driving the use of BIM, not architects. why? because i do think it helps facilitate coordination of disciplines. in terms of architecture, i think we as a profession are still more interested in experimentation with form than we are in streamlining the construction industry. though i do think digital project offers an exciting potential of merging experimentation with form and a means of construction.
Yes, mostly coordination. There may be some costing going on as well, I'm not sure. From what I've seen in Atlanta, it's the subs that have really taken the lead in use of the tool. We are hard pressed to find structural engineers using BIM and even harder with MEP. I actually sense some resistance to it from them. Obviously the subs use is limited to coordination and take-offs, so we're missing out on the earlier advantages of cdesign coordination.
I think the whole concept is a sticky situation right now when it comes to liabilty and risk exposure. It takes the right mix of client and contractor to take it on. It starts to challenge the normal project delivery methods and while the potential benefit is attractive, the potential for big mistakes is there as well.
But if we as architects don't start to get our collective heads around it and take some leadership, it will be one more aspect of the profession that we sign over to contractors and consultants. It would be nice if the AIA stopped giving each other awards long enough to start addressing the implications of these changes, but that's probably asking too much.
also, i know that the government services administration has started requiring all of their architects/consultants to use BIM... i can't remember where i saw that... so i would assume that morphosis is using it now too which all of the work that they're doing for big brother (sanfran federal building, eugene oregon courthouse, etc.)
that's really interesting, frit. so the general contractor only works with subs that have the ability to model their work? what kind of subcontractors are you talking about? does that inhibit competitive bids or is this design-build?
"Obviously the subs use is limited to coordination and take-offs, so we're missing out on the earlier advantages of cdesign coordination."
so does this mean that the information isn't spatially modelled?
sorry for all the questions. i've only used bim so far to facilitate construction document production and create door schedules. a glorified 3D modelling program - pretty rudimentary stuff. i'm more interested in how it works with construction, but have come across relatively few offices that are using it to its potential in this respect.
a-phil beat me to it. BECK sent a couple of Alums over to show us projects they built off of BIM. Pretty interesting. I'm taking a Revit based ConDocs class this semester. I'm not sure how I feel about it just yet. Part of me would like to know ACAD condocs before I get into Revit.
What I meant was the sub is doing all the modeling after the design is "complete", whereas if the consultants got on board we could be making use of the data a lot sooner. For this project at least, it was a requirement for the subs to be BIM capable. I get the feeling that many of the MEP subs are already doing this type of thing internally to do estimates and facilitate shop drawings (my cynical side would say they are looking for change order opportunities as well). I know when I asked our reseller about a year ago who was getting training on Revit MEP, it was almost all subcontractors.
rfuller:
I started a thread a few weeks ago (that was poorly titled and when irrevocably off track here questioning what the impact of this type of technology is on the traditional education of an architect. I can't phrase it any better now than I did then so I won't try. Suffice to say that after four years of BIM use I remain both enthusiastic and suspicious of it.
I recently saw a chap from Newtecnic, a facade designer, talking about using Gehry Technology's Building Project, a BIM based on aerospace technology Catia. Richard Serra uses it too for his steelwork.
It was impressive, allowed mock-up of facades panels, reduced clashing, potentially reduced waste, made staff more productive in the same way that CAD did a decade or more ago. Helped the integration of structural and services.
He was using this on the 600m (that's very tall in ft) Moscow City Tower.
i know of a similar instance to what psyarch was referring to....
zahner does this type of modelling. but there's a disconnect as discussed previously. i was researching zahner in school and asked them if they had ever traded a BIM file. The guy I spoke with more or less said "not yet" They get a .3ds or Form-Z file from the client and then model up what you need. They coordinating systems into their panel designs as well now. Though I don't know if a lot of people are using it. (Zepps system I think they call it.) So there's the disconnect, subs see and advantage in using it, and architects see the advantage in using it, yet we're not "flowin'" yet. Anyway, Zahner is pretty cool company. And you can't say they just do that crazy gehry shit... they are just willing to find a way to do anything new.
I am not sure that Gehry's use of BIM and CATIA technology is as easily transferred to mainstream architectural practice as i would like to believe...first Gehry acts as both architect and GC in these projects, hence there is no conflict of interest in the first place.No one is going to try to swine anyone else..You don't even need BIM if you are going to be both architect and GC. In general practice, architects issue drawings for multiple GCs to bid on. Requiring only BIM capable GCs to bid greatly narrows your labour pool, hence competitiveness cannot be assessed. Then of course there is the permit issue..you cannot submit catia drawings to any building department in the US. That said, i am still excited about the technology....I look forward to the time when GCs submit CATIA documents instead of shop drawings and architects will evaluate these for its economic, social, and aesthetic value ..
shops is one area that i can see being facilitated by BIM (then again the incredible amount of detail you find in shops would be nearly impossible to model in 3D - memory/network constraints). i think for me the technology holds great potential, but raises too many difficult questions. another one that i wonder about is how do you use the model on site? you can't have just any construction worker walking around with a tablet pc twirling a 3d model around. the messiness of paper is almost a blessing on a job site.
also i'm really beginning to wonder if anyone is using BIM as something more than a glorified cd facilitator. it seems frit is the only one to have responded to this that has first hand experience using it for more than the conventional production of cds.
i don't know about that, jonas. it is a huge advantage to be able to make changes to the 3D model and have the change reflected in all of the associated drawings (plans, sections, elevations, etc). it's like a more intelligent and comprehesive xref to put it in cad terms. i had just hoped for more - that it might have greater influence on the construction process itself than what i have observed to this point.
We are currently workng on a large fast-tracked project that is employing BIM and parametric modelling extensively through DD. As the project progresses we query the model for information that informs consultants with affects design decisions, and adjustments to the model are made accordingly. This feedback loop can continue right into construction, serving all parties involved - designer, contractor, and client.
BIM is already being used in this way for many large highrise projects, and it is being demanded by clients. The market will eventually make widespread use of BIM inevitable. You are able to anticipate construction issues long in advance of construction, to a degree that would never be possible in other types of modelling or drafting. This means a higher level of control for the architect over the end product, and a better picture of the project for the contractor. It also means the client is able to anticipate and avoid costly coordination problems in the field.
The relative success of this technology in architectural practice (beyond CD production) completely depends upon how the architect can orchestrate a design process that employs this type of information and feedback. Its kind of like analyzing the benefits of the internet for a design process - it just makes information visible and accessible.
Absolutely. If you're looking for the easiest way to produce CD's, BIM is not the tool for want.
"it just makes information visible and accessible."
I think the "BIM" acronym is misleading, because it implies that these tools are just 3D modelling programs. At their core, true BIM packages are nothing more than powerful databases that happen to track graphic infomation in addition to non-graphic. In my opinion, that's where the real benefit comes from and where the greatest future potential lies. The ability to track and manage the relationship of information, be that the relation between a plan view and a section view, or schedules and specs, or wall asemblies and UL ratings, manufacturer information, etc. That is someting that you cannot replicate on a sheet of paper.
good to hear from you, flashpan. i was hoping you might join in. i'm still not sure i understand exactly what you are talking about. could you give an example how coordination is facilitated through the model and how this creates a feedback loop that informs design? that still sounds very theoretical to me. is it any different than just dumping all of the consultants MEP files into a model and seeing where there are conflicts and adjusting accordingly?
J/K - I actually like BIM, I've just never gone full throttle into to it. Revit is sitting just 10 feet from me right now, I could open it, stick it in, just one little baby step....
To bump this discussion a bit, I have a tangential question...
How easy is it to exchange information between different BIM platforms?
For example, I'm looking at the Revit demo for our office right now. I was talking with the structural engineer we frequently work with, and they have just bought Bentley BIM software for their office. Are we going to have information that doesn't get communicated back and forth between the models because we aren't using the same software (like when we were doing drawings in AutoCAD on PCs in our office, but we had to export DXFs to them for backgrounds because they were running something else on Macs).
How crucial is it that everyone on the team use the same software? Does this mean that we're going to need to have (and be able to use) multiple packages in order to be able to work with different groups?
I don't want to head down the wrong path if we're going to dead-end ourselves because we aren't properly compatible.
Well, you definitely lose a lot of the capabilities with different software. But the question really is, is it still better than straightforward 2D CAD.
I work for a very large GC in New York and the only time I have ever seen BIM used for by a curtainwall contractor from Germany. Getting the trades to adopt BIM is a huge task, heck many subs don't even know what a PDF is. Architecture is a fast moving industry, technologically, while construction moves at it's own pace. Most subs and GC's are simply overburdened with work right now and no one has the time to look at new software. There are a few design/build firms that use BIM in New York but for them it's much easier to incorporate the design process with the buyout and procurement process.
I don't see BIM making it straight through design, estimation, management, and construction for a while. I would argue that the step from hand drafting to 2D CAD was a smaller step than 2D CAD to 3D BIM. Technically, all 2D CAD did was alter the drawing production method. BIM goes into data management, project management, scheduling, phasing, design options, etc, etc. Once a true BIM infrastructure is set, technically I don't see a need for even drawing production. Why not build straight out of a 3D model instead of a drawing?
Building from a 3D model will take awhile... but the BIM process has too much potential $avings behind it too hold the industry back for long - everyone is thinking/talking about it.
There will never be a 100% defined BIM process to follow.
Building from the model is probably too much information in most cases. A few people need to have it, but more important is going to be collecting the information that is relevant to a particular trade or group.
The art of producing a set of drawings from a BIM model (at least as I understand it right now, which, admittedly is only as an outsider) will be in *selecting* the information to put on the sheet to quickly convey the essential information - without all the extraneous stuff - to the people in the field who need it.
"I don't see BIM making it straight through design, estimation, management, and construction for a while."
Sorry to rain on your parade her Philarch, but this is currently happening. We are working on a project that was designed w/ bim, drawn up in bim, estimated w/ the gccm on bim, managed by the architect, contactor, and owners rep w/ bim, being build in the field with the documents created w/ bim, conflicts resolved w/ bim... we are a small potaoes outfit. Nothing like these big boys are completely integrated with the practice...
Yes, it'll take a while, but it will definitely happen one way or the other.
Cornellbox, I don't think "selecting" the information is going to be the issue. Depending who has access, it will filter all that information anway - that kind of stuff can be automated.
The way I see it, the technology is already pretty close to being able to build from 3D models instead of producing 2D drawings and interpreting that as 3D again (a little redundant no?). Its not really the technology that is the issue preventing going to fully integrated BIM construction, but I think that leap to unfamiliar...
emaze - You are not raining on my parade, I've been working through BIM for a while now. I mean that being a standard practice by majority of the profession. It is still being communicated in 2D format though.
i feel like if the future of building info modeling is heart surgery/genetic engineering/mapping the human genome than what we all are doing right now is more akin to bloodletting with leeches and magic potions and elixirs to exorcise small gnomes living in one's stomach.
or geritol.. remember that?.. for tired blood? revit=geritol.. for hard to build buildings.
ah the the humorous work for idle hands appears. I just got back from a job site, 10 stories cast in place concrete, bim will never be able to bend rebar cages and pour mushrooms, comunicate with the tower crane to lower the port o lets, or contain a blow out before losing the day. Yes the design and documents will be done with BIM, or even some pencils, but honestly robots with BIM for brains cant build without trades people in some capacity.
i'm not sure if anyone here is saying that bim=robots. as for myself bim will just take some of the guesswork out of stuff that goes on in the field, for example i can't remember the last time i saw a real transit on a jobsite...
BIM and Construction
this was something i posted on another thread, but though it might be worthy of its own topic.
i would be curious to know how many constuction companies are using BIM. has anyone worked for an architecture firm that has been able to issue a 3D BIM model, bypassing CDs altogether? what GC were you working with on the project? how did that work with subs? was the steel fabricator using BIM? the curtain waller? i'd love to hear how integrated this process is; any info or anecdotes would be much appreciated.
this is going to be an almost worthless post, but...
we are hoping to team with a GC who has exprerience working with Revit soon, (this winter)...
however, we haven't met with them yet, and we don't know to what extent the process will change yet.
so, i'll post again if i remember this thread when we lay the groundwork down. otherwise, I'm curiouos to here what answers you get as well....
oops, by "the process" i mean everything to do with the questions you pose. who gets the model and what information are they getting from it, etc.
and "will change" refers to our traditional documentation practices.
sorry, i should read what i type before i hit that "submit" button
no.
details and specs
Don't forget permitting. We will always need to produce "dumb" drawings until permitting agencies get plugged into BIM, and I don't see that happening anytime soon.
good point, pv.
maybe, i need to revise the question a bit. to what extent are you using BIM in the drawing and construction process? is it facilitating detailing in the drawing process? are you using it in fabrication of materials? are contractors at all conversant with the software?
We don't use BIM ourselves, but the steel subcontractor on our biggest job does, and this put me in the role of steel coordinator since I was the only one in the office who felt confident that I could understand everything they were trying to tell us with the model. It was an interesting experience- any time I would find something that was obviously bad, they would reply "oh, well that part of the model is wrong." but any other time claimed the model to be 100% correct. Maybe this is a result of it being an early trial of BIM and they're just not great at it yet? Anyway, it was hard to work with when they were able to use that as a cop-out.
so how are you supposed to build the project without cd's?
i know that BECK Construction has really jumped into the BIM world... i'm not sure if they're doing it on projects with other architects or just with their in-house architecture group though... they are giving a presentation on their experience with BIM at the upcoming AIAFLA Emerging Professional's Conference (forgive the plug, i'm on the steering committee)...
also, you may want to check out the lecture given by Gregg Pasquarelli of SHoP Architects at Harvard... you can download the podcasts about halfway down on this page... they seem to use BIM (or BIM type stuff) a lot... and they show the "construction documents" that they used for one of their projects...
SHoP used Rhino heavily back in the day, I'd assume they still do...
Not to the extent you outline, but I'm currently working on a project in which the contractor has required all the major subs to model their portions of the work. These are cross-checked with the arch and structural portions using Navisworks for collision detection. It is worth noting that these arch and structural models were created by the contractor for this purpose. We are using Revit and have given them our model at points during the design, but they rebuild the model based on their experience and to setup for things like phasing and sequencing down the road. I don't think it's going as far as manufacturing, but there is supposed to be some on-site access to the model to give the various subs access to all this information. We'll see how it works.
SHoP uses Rhino in SD, Revit/BIM DD through CD.
i got a mail about Parametrics in Rhino and Europeans can attend?
ParaCloud™ for Rhino 4.0 - A Generative Parametric Design Workshop
ParaCloud and McNeel Europe offer a 2-day open workshop for educators.
ParaCloud is a low-cost software solution that converts an Excel™ spreadsheet into a powerful parametric modeler that drives CAD tools and extends its abilities. ParaCloud powers Rhinoceros with generative design capabilities and provides parametric control to accurately and intuitively edit your design for fabrication, construction and performative studies.
Click on the dates below for complete program details and to register free of charge. (Space is limited, sign up early).
*
Sep 24-25 - eCAADe conference, Frankfurt, Germany
*
Oct 8-9 - ESARQ-UIC, Barcelona, Spain
frit, are you talking MEP coordination? interestingly, i've found structural engineers and MEP driving the use of BIM, not architects. why? because i do think it helps facilitate coordination of disciplines. in terms of architecture, i think we as a profession are still more interested in experimentation with form than we are in streamlining the construction industry. though i do think digital project offers an exciting potential of merging experimentation with form and a means of construction.
Yes, mostly coordination. There may be some costing going on as well, I'm not sure. From what I've seen in Atlanta, it's the subs that have really taken the lead in use of the tool. We are hard pressed to find structural engineers using BIM and even harder with MEP. I actually sense some resistance to it from them. Obviously the subs use is limited to coordination and take-offs, so we're missing out on the earlier advantages of cdesign coordination.
I think the whole concept is a sticky situation right now when it comes to liabilty and risk exposure. It takes the right mix of client and contractor to take it on. It starts to challenge the normal project delivery methods and while the potential benefit is attractive, the potential for big mistakes is there as well.
But if we as architects don't start to get our collective heads around it and take some leadership, it will be one more aspect of the profession that we sign over to contractors and consultants. It would be nice if the AIA stopped giving each other awards long enough to start addressing the implications of these changes, but that's probably asking too much.
also, i know that the government services administration has started requiring all of their architects/consultants to use BIM... i can't remember where i saw that... so i would assume that morphosis is using it now too which all of the work that they're doing for big brother (sanfran federal building, eugene oregon courthouse, etc.)
frit... BIM and "integrated practice" is one of the AIA's main initiatives right now... here is the AIA's BIM page...
Fair enough, I take that back.
I should probably give them the benefit of the doubt.
But . . . item #3 is awards.
that's really interesting, frit. so the general contractor only works with subs that have the ability to model their work? what kind of subcontractors are you talking about? does that inhibit competitive bids or is this design-build?
"Obviously the subs use is limited to coordination and take-offs, so we're missing out on the earlier advantages of cdesign coordination."
so does this mean that the information isn't spatially modelled?
sorry for all the questions. i've only used bim so far to facilitate construction document production and create door schedules. a glorified 3D modelling program - pretty rudimentary stuff. i'm more interested in how it works with construction, but have come across relatively few offices that are using it to its potential in this respect.
a-phil beat me to it. BECK sent a couple of Alums over to show us projects they built off of BIM. Pretty interesting. I'm taking a Revit based ConDocs class this semester. I'm not sure how I feel about it just yet. Part of me would like to know ACAD condocs before I get into Revit.
jafiddler:
What I meant was the sub is doing all the modeling after the design is "complete", whereas if the consultants got on board we could be making use of the data a lot sooner. For this project at least, it was a requirement for the subs to be BIM capable. I get the feeling that many of the MEP subs are already doing this type of thing internally to do estimates and facilitate shop drawings (my cynical side would say they are looking for change order opportunities as well). I know when I asked our reseller about a year ago who was getting training on Revit MEP, it was almost all subcontractors.
rfuller:
I started a thread a few weeks ago (that was poorly titled and when irrevocably off track here questioning what the impact of this type of technology is on the traditional education of an architect. I can't phrase it any better now than I did then so I won't try. Suffice to say that after four years of BIM use I remain both enthusiastic and suspicious of it.
I recently saw a chap from Newtecnic, a facade designer, talking about using Gehry Technology's Building Project, a BIM based on aerospace technology Catia. Richard Serra uses it too for his steelwork.
It was impressive, allowed mock-up of facades panels, reduced clashing, potentially reduced waste, made staff more productive in the same way that CAD did a decade or more ago. Helped the integration of structural and services.
He was using this on the 600m (that's very tall in ft) Moscow City Tower.
i know of a similar instance to what psyarch was referring to....
zahner does this type of modelling. but there's a disconnect as discussed previously. i was researching zahner in school and asked them if they had ever traded a BIM file. The guy I spoke with more or less said "not yet" They get a .3ds or Form-Z file from the client and then model up what you need. They coordinating systems into their panel designs as well now. Though I don't know if a lot of people are using it. (Zepps system I think they call it.) So there's the disconnect, subs see and advantage in using it, and architects see the advantage in using it, yet we're not "flowin'" yet. Anyway, Zahner is pretty cool company. And you can't say they just do that crazy gehry shit... they are just willing to find a way to do anything new.
I am not sure that Gehry's use of BIM and CATIA technology is as easily transferred to mainstream architectural practice as i would like to believe...first Gehry acts as both architect and GC in these projects, hence there is no conflict of interest in the first place.No one is going to try to swine anyone else..You don't even need BIM if you are going to be both architect and GC. In general practice, architects issue drawings for multiple GCs to bid on. Requiring only BIM capable GCs to bid greatly narrows your labour pool, hence competitiveness cannot be assessed. Then of course there is the permit issue..you cannot submit catia drawings to any building department in the US. That said, i am still excited about the technology....I look forward to the time when GCs submit CATIA documents instead of shop drawings and architects will evaluate these for its economic, social, and aesthetic value ..
shops is one area that i can see being facilitated by BIM (then again the incredible amount of detail you find in shops would be nearly impossible to model in 3D - memory/network constraints). i think for me the technology holds great potential, but raises too many difficult questions. another one that i wonder about is how do you use the model on site? you can't have just any construction worker walking around with a tablet pc twirling a 3d model around. the messiness of paper is almost a blessing on a job site.
also i'm really beginning to wonder if anyone is using BIM as something more than a glorified cd facilitator. it seems frit is the only one to have responded to this that has first hand experience using it for more than the conventional production of cds.
CDs are more easy w/o BIM ;)
i don't know about that, jonas. it is a huge advantage to be able to make changes to the 3D model and have the change reflected in all of the associated drawings (plans, sections, elevations, etc). it's like a more intelligent and comprehesive xref to put it in cad terms. i had just hoped for more - that it might have greater influence on the construction process itself than what i have observed to this point.
We are currently workng on a large fast-tracked project that is employing BIM and parametric modelling extensively through DD. As the project progresses we query the model for information that informs consultants with affects design decisions, and adjustments to the model are made accordingly. This feedback loop can continue right into construction, serving all parties involved - designer, contractor, and client.
BIM is already being used in this way for many large highrise projects, and it is being demanded by clients. The market will eventually make widespread use of BIM inevitable. You are able to anticipate construction issues long in advance of construction, to a degree that would never be possible in other types of modelling or drafting. This means a higher level of control for the architect over the end product, and a better picture of the project for the contractor. It also means the client is able to anticipate and avoid costly coordination problems in the field.
The relative success of this technology in architectural practice (beyond CD production) completely depends upon how the architect can orchestrate a design process that employs this type of information and feedback. Its kind of like analyzing the benefits of the internet for a design process - it just makes information visible and accessible.
"CDs are more easy w/o BIM ;)"
Absolutely. If you're looking for the easiest way to produce CD's, BIM is not the tool for want.
"it just makes information visible and accessible."
I think the "BIM" acronym is misleading, because it implies that these tools are just 3D modelling programs. At their core, true BIM packages are nothing more than powerful databases that happen to track graphic infomation in addition to non-graphic. In my opinion, that's where the real benefit comes from and where the greatest future potential lies. The ability to track and manage the relationship of information, be that the relation between a plan view and a section view, or schedules and specs, or wall asemblies and UL ratings, manufacturer information, etc. That is someting that you cannot replicate on a sheet of paper.
good post flashpan.
for all the peeps who say Revit can't do CDs, you're crazy. We see huge advantages just in the way Revit keeps drawings organized.
Have fun updating those tags, schedules, sections, and interior elevations, setting up sheets, batch plotting, etc.
(of course, we still rely on acad for some detail drafting)
We do all our details in Revit. It's very nice to have parametric detail components and the ability to see the line weight live.
good to hear from you, flashpan. i was hoping you might join in. i'm still not sure i understand exactly what you are talking about. could you give an example how coordination is facilitated through the model and how this creates a feedback loop that informs design? that still sounds very theoretical to me. is it any different than just dumping all of the consultants MEP files into a model and seeing where there are conflicts and adjusting accordingly?
Bim's been screwing my wife and I'm not going to take this shit any longer
J/K - I actually like BIM, I've just never gone full throttle into to it. Revit is sitting just 10 feet from me right now, I could open it, stick it in, just one little baby step....
To bump this discussion a bit, I have a tangential question...
How easy is it to exchange information between different BIM platforms?
For example, I'm looking at the Revit demo for our office right now. I was talking with the structural engineer we frequently work with, and they have just bought Bentley BIM software for their office. Are we going to have information that doesn't get communicated back and forth between the models because we aren't using the same software (like when we were doing drawings in AutoCAD on PCs in our office, but we had to export DXFs to them for backgrounds because they were running something else on Macs).
How crucial is it that everyone on the team use the same software? Does this mean that we're going to need to have (and be able to use) multiple packages in order to be able to work with different groups?
I don't want to head down the wrong path if we're going to dead-end ourselves because we aren't properly compatible.
Well, you definitely lose a lot of the capabilities with different software. But the question really is, is it still better than straightforward 2D CAD.
I work for a very large GC in New York and the only time I have ever seen BIM used for by a curtainwall contractor from Germany. Getting the trades to adopt BIM is a huge task, heck many subs don't even know what a PDF is. Architecture is a fast moving industry, technologically, while construction moves at it's own pace. Most subs and GC's are simply overburdened with work right now and no one has the time to look at new software. There are a few design/build firms that use BIM in New York but for them it's much easier to incorporate the design process with the buyout and procurement process.
I have a stupid question.
I know what BIm neas generally speaking, but I have no idea what B.I.M stands for. Can someone enlighten me?
thanks Steven. Always should try wiki...
I don't see BIM making it straight through design, estimation, management, and construction for a while. I would argue that the step from hand drafting to 2D CAD was a smaller step than 2D CAD to 3D BIM. Technically, all 2D CAD did was alter the drawing production method. BIM goes into data management, project management, scheduling, phasing, design options, etc, etc. Once a true BIM infrastructure is set, technically I don't see a need for even drawing production. Why not build straight out of a 3D model instead of a drawing?
Building from a 3D model will take awhile... but the BIM process has too much potential $avings behind it too hold the industry back for long - everyone is thinking/talking about it.
There will never be a 100% defined BIM process to follow.
Building from the model is probably too much information in most cases. A few people need to have it, but more important is going to be collecting the information that is relevant to a particular trade or group.
The art of producing a set of drawings from a BIM model (at least as I understand it right now, which, admittedly is only as an outsider) will be in *selecting* the information to put on the sheet to quickly convey the essential information - without all the extraneous stuff - to the people in the field who need it.
"I don't see BIM making it straight through design, estimation, management, and construction for a while."
Sorry to rain on your parade her Philarch, but this is currently happening. We are working on a project that was designed w/ bim, drawn up in bim, estimated w/ the gccm on bim, managed by the architect, contactor, and owners rep w/ bim, being build in the field with the documents created w/ bim, conflicts resolved w/ bim... we are a small potaoes outfit. Nothing like these big boys are completely integrated with the practice...
*here* (however, i do agree that the time is comming when most projects will be built straight out of the model)
Yes, it'll take a while, but it will definitely happen one way or the other.
Cornellbox, I don't think "selecting" the information is going to be the issue. Depending who has access, it will filter all that information anway - that kind of stuff can be automated.
The way I see it, the technology is already pretty close to being able to build from 3D models instead of producing 2D drawings and interpreting that as 3D again (a little redundant no?). Its not really the technology that is the issue preventing going to fully integrated BIM construction, but I think that leap to unfamiliar...
emaze - You are not raining on my parade, I've been working through BIM for a while now. I mean that being a standard practice by majority of the profession. It is still being communicated in 2D format though.
i feel like if the future of building info modeling is heart surgery/genetic engineering/mapping the human genome than what we all are doing right now is more akin to bloodletting with leeches and magic potions and elixirs to exorcise small gnomes living in one's stomach.
or geritol.. remember that?.. for tired blood? revit=geritol.. for hard to build buildings.
ah the the humorous work for idle hands appears. I just got back from a job site, 10 stories cast in place concrete, bim will never be able to bend rebar cages and pour mushrooms, comunicate with the tower crane to lower the port o lets, or contain a blow out before losing the day. Yes the design and documents will be done with BIM, or even some pencils, but honestly robots with BIM for brains cant build without trades people in some capacity.
i'm not sure if anyone here is saying that bim=robots. as for myself bim will just take some of the guesswork out of stuff that goes on in the field, for example i can't remember the last time i saw a real transit on a jobsite...
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