I have my own design, drafting, and rendering business , "pre-licensure" because I have always liked working for myself, and have so much work that I am boggled most days. Most of my projects are a success, as I work closely with the P/Z/Building dept. and the a few structural engineers and consultants.
I never represent myself as an Architect to clientele! ..and yet i am still inundated with work.
Another reason I have not gotten an Intern Job , is that in some ways I feel Interning would be a kind boring step backwards, especially if I can't use REVIT, Rhino, and 3DS anymore, and do lost of cool projects on my own.
According to NCARB, I still need to finish up and go to Grad School and get my Masters before IDP is even a worry... and I am watching the days go by with no IDP progress as I do work that would otherwise give me IDP credit. My local GSchool notoriously sux , and doesn't seem worthy of my time or money...and I haven't got into the Gschool of Choice yet either.
What should I do? I hate to waste my IDP years without getting credit for my work, yet , no local firms or schools impress me enough to make me want quit my entrepenurial Design Venture.
(I think I already know what all you people with teh little letters "AIA" printed after your name will say: " Buck up!... and do some 2d CAD under someone with a registered license!...Sounds depressing.)
what about partnering with a firm? if you have more work then you can hack, find a good firm where you like the folks and see if they want a piece of your pie in exchange for 'supervising' you... bring out your friendly lawyer in drafting the partnering agreement and make sure to suss out the liability as a paraprofessional. your fees may drop, but you'll start logging hours that can apply towards ncarb's 'vastly experienced' architect route. just check with your arch state board as to what they'll consider. may take 13 years, but in the end you can join the ranks of the aia toting folks
.
maybe you can get an m.arch on line so you don't have to leave your hamlet.
and I know my topic , sounds arrogant...I am sure I'll get lectured by the Licensed guys all day, on how I am doing something that is ethically wrong or something..
I am not even sure how I got into this..I always just worked for myself, landscaping, construction, carpentry , now design. Except, it seems I need to re evaluate my entrepenurial habit....13 years yikes.
Check your state registration requirements - I know Illinois has had a way that if you've worked long enough in the profession, you can sit for the boards - but it was on the order of 10 years of experience. I know most states are or have phased that route out, but it doesn't hurt to check.
i'd recommend going back to school, even if it's not your first choice grad school. right now you think you know a lot. school will help you realize what you don't know. from there it will be a lot easier to transition into the internship process.
do though definitely get what idp credit you can from your past experience. you can still get some credit (there's a cut-off) with only a bs arch. the deal is you will have to have worked under a supervisor who is an architect and have him or her sign off on your idp paperwork.
your situation is rough, and it's going to be a little hard to bare "taking a step back," but if you want to be an architect you gotta do it, just like everyone else.
keep your business. go to grad school only if needed. do the minimum to get the degree. bring a licensed archi into your bus, and have em sign all the idp stuff. another reason why i disagree with all of this grad school idp nonsense.
we all know valid experience does mean how long you've worked in architecture...it means turning in your right idp paperwork, with the right idp signatures at the right time...sorry for the useless post...
do you really need to get licensed? For a resourceful person with his own business I don't think you do.
I am almost done my IDP (2 months left) and am starting my ARE's, and run my own design firm as well.
I have found no problem paying/outsourcing the 'stamp' to licensed architects. I pretty much have them on staff as consultants to do a final review and stamp for my permit sets. I'm only getting licensed because it'll save me some moeny on every job regarding outsourcing, and I've come so far with the B.Arch and IDP council record that I may as well finish it all.
If you do the math, the amount of hours you'll put toward getting licensed with your masters, IDP and ARE's, it won'y be worth it dollar-wise. I say just grow your business.
I know several unlicensed people who own and operate design firms, and several non-PE engineers who run engineering firms. Some of this guys's have yearly billings in the multi-millions.
Unless you need to be licensed for some internal reason or if its a goal you can't let go of, i'd say screw it.
Admittedly, I guess it has a little more than I care to admit to do with the fact that I am not satisfied with what the Architectural industry appears to be like intrinsically, and not necessarily that there is anything wrong with the local Firms.
I am contacting my local IDP rep , to discuss these issues... you guys have been good advocates...and I feel refreshed to have feedback.
I 'll try and remain humble and remember that this stuff takes alot of time and patience to learn.
try Boston Architectural College ... www.the-bac.edu/
i run my studio for a while, but man i'm in need of more work ... pass some to me and i'll supervise your idp ...
Grad School: I kind of agree with OldFogey…about the grad school thing. Except that it might not be a ‘waste’ of time. Like anything, you get out of it what you put into it. If doing what your doing makes you money, supports your lifestyle (and family- should you have one) and your happy…don’t fix something if it ain’t broken. But I reaped many benefits from grad school. Some I use daily, some are just great things to know. But school is expensive, and the results may not ‘pay-off’ for you in the long run. If you have the time and resources, what you learn and earn, can never be taken from you.
Licensure: In most states it is against the law to call yourself an architect or practice architecture without a license. Definitions of both are state to state. For example, when I lived in Tucson, I designed (as an AIT- architect-in-training) a two story tri-plex. This was the limit a non-licensed design person could do, at that time, and this may have changed. So basically in Arizona, a non-licensed individual could design and submit a single family homes up to a tri-plex, as long as the ‘life safety’ aspects were engineered and stamped- specifically structural engineering. Most jurisdictions allow a designer, draftsperson, contractor, etc (basically non-licensed architects) to go to permit on any single family residence, as long as the ‘life safety’ portions are well documented, engineered and stamped. But again, I agree with OldFogey (wow…that’s’ twice)…you need to sus out your own jurisdiction.
I agree with jafidler as well, try partnering with a local firm. They will require a piece of your action, but you could do bigger work. That relationship could be tricky, for both parties, and professional liability will no doubt rule in the end. I would talk to some legal counsel before signing anything.
I disagree with impaljunkie in as far as I think licensure is a responsibility, a legal accountability issue, as it were, for architects. One is not required to have a license to make money or design, but I think there is a fundamental responsibility to the profession to pass the exam and get a license. Like school and any educational course of action, the dollar to hour spent ratio will never pencil. But as a professional, the license does two things: 1) it proves to you and your clients you really know what your doing WRT to designing environments that meet life safety concerns as well as artful design craft, and 2) it holds you personally accountable for the professional architectural decisions of the proposed structure. I think when the heat is turned up, the decision processes are tougher, but in the end the service you are supplying is more legitimate.
Good luck FormFunction33 and good job! Not many non-licensed folks have been (or are) as busy as you are.
Formfuncion33 - you mention that in your work you deal with the P&Z departments. Is what you are doing mostly SD & DD work to get initial city approval of projects? Being non-licensed I assume the CD's are being done by others and receiving the professional stamp there? Correct me if I'm wrong.
Having worked on a number of retail projects around the country I've worked with many designers like I describe, many non-licensed, that basically put together renderings to get a city approval and then hand off to the "architects" to make CD's and get the thing built. If that's what you're doing, why change? Most "architects" like to do design, and not the CD's and CA work.
On the other side I don't really condone what ImpalaJunkie claims to do. Stamp "buying" in my opinion is unethical, even if that person does a peer review.
For as big a headache the whole prof degree -> IDP -> ARE system might be, I still feel it's firmly grounded on good principles and should be strictly upheld. Redefining some parameters makes sense, but overall I like the system.
formfunction, I'm a hard-core believer in getting licensed. But in your case, I agree with Fogey: getting a license is unnecessary and going to grad school would be a total waste of time.
I'd suggest partnering with someone who IS licensed (since I think paying an architect to stamp your drawings is unethical), or just make sure you're operating within the legalities of your location and not worry about it, and keep doing the work you're obviously successful at doing.
I agree with most here, if you run a successful business already, what will liscensure really gain you? When/If you get the liscence, will you move into another realm of work (CD's) or will you continue to grow with SD + DD? If you will continue with the work you already do, I see no reason to get liscenced. If you want to move into a pro-active "architectural role" with construction documents, obviously the liscensure is a necessary step you need to take.
Check the laws within your state. If you parter with a liscenced architect, you (unliscenced) may still be able to be a "principle" in the firm. Each state is different though. And remember, if anyone is signing drawings, buy as much insurance as you can afford, even if you never use it.
PS I am also in the same boat as you. I'd like to start my own design firm, and i'm leaning more towards marketing SD + DD rather than CD, because the insurance cost is lower, and who really wants to draw wall sections all day long...
Msg me via email, i'd like to talk to you further offline.
the reason i believe you should go back to school, finish idp and pass the ARE is that i could not bare to go through life thinking i'm an architect, yet not actually being one. it would gnaw at me. sure, you can sustain and adapt your practice to not having the license, but if you want to be an architect, there's a very particular path you have to follow.
btw school is never a "waste of time." that statement is so utterly ridiculous i won't comment.
its a niche market I found, for sure....as my overhead is much lower than my Architect friends, as well as my customer base, wages, and perhaps, job security?... Jfidler is right, I will probably hit a wall one day with my entrepenurial ambitions and possibly seek rectification with NCARB out of shear nagging feelings,....but NCARB sucks, as far as I can tell...and so does crushing debt from the Masters path.
Running a business is hard enough much less making sure the dang buildings work. SO I do have respect for the profession in the sense that it has evolved to accommodate the free market. I guess, now my question is do I need to be a better business person (to keep up), or a better Architect? Not that its a choice necessarily, but I see complexities of financial aspect of design, that I never expected.
I am grateful for the comments here, especially all you radical advocates for "no school", ....even if G-School looks cool and crushingly expensive from a distance....i think the common message here is not so much whether there is an issue with the engagement of the bureaucracies of Architecture, rather the question of the engagement of the design community, whether it be with it be a single partner or something broader.
jafidler, of course you are correct that education is never a waste of time. But in ff33's case, in terms of his professional business pursuits, grad school seems unnecessary.
One of the reasons I am usually so hard-core in favor of licensure is that I, too, knew that not getting licensed would gnaw away at me and I would forever feel unfinished. Getting the license was an enormous sense of completion, worth every bit of NCARB hassle.
But, and this is huge: I do not have crushing grad school debt, as I got licensed with my BArch.
ff33: if you DO decide you need to get licensed, for whatever reason, I'd suggest going to a state school that seems in line with your thinking and won't cost a lot. As many of us here repeat ad nauseum, school is what you make of it, and even a middle-of-the-road school can be a great resource if you are active in seeking out opportunities.
Working Prelicensure and IDP Issues
I have my own design, drafting, and rendering business , "pre-licensure" because I have always liked working for myself, and have so much work that I am boggled most days. Most of my projects are a success, as I work closely with the P/Z/Building dept. and the a few structural engineers and consultants.
I never represent myself as an Architect to clientele! ..and yet i am still inundated with work.
Another reason I have not gotten an Intern Job , is that in some ways I feel Interning would be a kind boring step backwards, especially if I can't use REVIT, Rhino, and 3DS anymore, and do lost of cool projects on my own.
According to NCARB, I still need to finish up and go to Grad School and get my Masters before IDP is even a worry... and I am watching the days go by with no IDP progress as I do work that would otherwise give me IDP credit. My local GSchool notoriously sux , and doesn't seem worthy of my time or money...and I haven't got into the Gschool of Choice yet either.
What should I do? I hate to waste my IDP years without getting credit for my work, yet , no local firms or schools impress me enough to make me want quit my entrepenurial Design Venture.
(I think I already know what all you people with teh little letters "AIA" printed after your name will say: " Buck up!... and do some 2d CAD under someone with a registered license!...Sounds depressing.)
what about partnering with a firm? if you have more work then you can hack, find a good firm where you like the folks and see if they want a piece of your pie in exchange for 'supervising' you... bring out your friendly lawyer in drafting the partnering agreement and make sure to suss out the liability as a paraprofessional. your fees may drop, but you'll start logging hours that can apply towards ncarb's 'vastly experienced' architect route. just check with your arch state board as to what they'll consider. may take 13 years, but in the end you can join the ranks of the aia toting folks
.
maybe you can get an m.arch on line so you don't have to leave your hamlet.
gosh and I turned down working on a tiny addition for my neighbors because I was afraid of working unlicensed...
Good advice Treekiller...
and I know my topic , sounds arrogant...I am sure I'll get lectured by the Licensed guys all day, on how I am doing something that is ethically wrong or something..
I am not even sure how I got into this..I always just worked for myself, landscaping, construction, carpentry , now design. Except, it seems I need to re evaluate my entrepenurial habit....13 years yikes.
Check your state registration requirements - I know Illinois has had a way that if you've worked long enough in the profession, you can sit for the boards - but it was on the order of 10 years of experience. I know most states are or have phased that route out, but it doesn't hurt to check.
i'd recommend going back to school, even if it's not your first choice grad school. right now you think you know a lot. school will help you realize what you don't know. from there it will be a lot easier to transition into the internship process.
do though definitely get what idp credit you can from your past experience. you can still get some credit (there's a cut-off) with only a bs arch. the deal is you will have to have worked under a supervisor who is an architect and have him or her sign off on your idp paperwork.
your situation is rough, and it's going to be a little hard to bare "taking a step back," but if you want to be an architect you gotta do it, just like everyone else.
keep your business. go to grad school only if needed. do the minimum to get the degree. bring a licensed archi into your bus, and have em sign all the idp stuff. another reason why i disagree with all of this grad school idp nonsense.
we all know valid experience does mean how long you've worked in architecture...it means turning in your right idp paperwork, with the right idp signatures at the right time...sorry for the useless post...
oh, with the right fees...don't forget the right fee!
do you really need to get licensed? For a resourceful person with his own business I don't think you do.
I am almost done my IDP (2 months left) and am starting my ARE's, and run my own design firm as well.
I have found no problem paying/outsourcing the 'stamp' to licensed architects. I pretty much have them on staff as consultants to do a final review and stamp for my permit sets. I'm only getting licensed because it'll save me some moeny on every job regarding outsourcing, and I've come so far with the B.Arch and IDP council record that I may as well finish it all.
If you do the math, the amount of hours you'll put toward getting licensed with your masters, IDP and ARE's, it won'y be worth it dollar-wise. I say just grow your business.
I know several unlicensed people who own and operate design firms, and several non-PE engineers who run engineering firms. Some of this guys's have yearly billings in the multi-millions.
Unless you need to be licensed for some internal reason or if its a goal you can't let go of, i'd say screw it.
Thanks guys.
Admittedly, I guess it has a little more than I care to admit to do with the fact that I am not satisfied with what the Architectural industry appears to be like intrinsically, and not necessarily that there is anything wrong with the local Firms.
I am contacting my local IDP rep , to discuss these issues... you guys have been good advocates...and I feel refreshed to have feedback.
I 'll try and remain humble and remember that this stuff takes alot of time and patience to learn.
if you have too much business, throw me some...
try Boston Architectural College ... www.the-bac.edu/
i run my studio for a while, but man i'm in need of more work ... pass some to me and i'll supervise your idp ...
Grad School: I kind of agree with OldFogey…about the grad school thing. Except that it might not be a ‘waste’ of time. Like anything, you get out of it what you put into it. If doing what your doing makes you money, supports your lifestyle (and family- should you have one) and your happy…don’t fix something if it ain’t broken. But I reaped many benefits from grad school. Some I use daily, some are just great things to know. But school is expensive, and the results may not ‘pay-off’ for you in the long run. If you have the time and resources, what you learn and earn, can never be taken from you.
Licensure: In most states it is against the law to call yourself an architect or practice architecture without a license. Definitions of both are state to state. For example, when I lived in Tucson, I designed (as an AIT- architect-in-training) a two story tri-plex. This was the limit a non-licensed design person could do, at that time, and this may have changed. So basically in Arizona, a non-licensed individual could design and submit a single family homes up to a tri-plex, as long as the ‘life safety’ aspects were engineered and stamped- specifically structural engineering. Most jurisdictions allow a designer, draftsperson, contractor, etc (basically non-licensed architects) to go to permit on any single family residence, as long as the ‘life safety’ portions are well documented, engineered and stamped. But again, I agree with OldFogey (wow…that’s’ twice)…you need to sus out your own jurisdiction.
I agree with jafidler as well, try partnering with a local firm. They will require a piece of your action, but you could do bigger work. That relationship could be tricky, for both parties, and professional liability will no doubt rule in the end. I would talk to some legal counsel before signing anything.
I disagree with impaljunkie in as far as I think licensure is a responsibility, a legal accountability issue, as it were, for architects. One is not required to have a license to make money or design, but I think there is a fundamental responsibility to the profession to pass the exam and get a license. Like school and any educational course of action, the dollar to hour spent ratio will never pencil. But as a professional, the license does two things: 1) it proves to you and your clients you really know what your doing WRT to designing environments that meet life safety concerns as well as artful design craft, and 2) it holds you personally accountable for the professional architectural decisions of the proposed structure. I think when the heat is turned up, the decision processes are tougher, but in the end the service you are supplying is more legitimate.
Good luck FormFunction33 and good job! Not many non-licensed folks have been (or are) as busy as you are.
Word out.
Formfuncion33 - you mention that in your work you deal with the P&Z departments. Is what you are doing mostly SD & DD work to get initial city approval of projects? Being non-licensed I assume the CD's are being done by others and receiving the professional stamp there? Correct me if I'm wrong.
Having worked on a number of retail projects around the country I've worked with many designers like I describe, many non-licensed, that basically put together renderings to get a city approval and then hand off to the "architects" to make CD's and get the thing built. If that's what you're doing, why change? Most "architects" like to do design, and not the CD's and CA work.
On the other side I don't really condone what ImpalaJunkie claims to do. Stamp "buying" in my opinion is unethical, even if that person does a peer review.
For as big a headache the whole prof degree -> IDP -> ARE system might be, I still feel it's firmly grounded on good principles and should be strictly upheld. Redefining some parameters makes sense, but overall I like the system.
formfunction, I'm a hard-core believer in getting licensed. But in your case, I agree with Fogey: getting a license is unnecessary and going to grad school would be a total waste of time.
I'd suggest partnering with someone who IS licensed (since I think paying an architect to stamp your drawings is unethical), or just make sure you're operating within the legalities of your location and not worry about it, and keep doing the work you're obviously successful at doing.
I agree with most here, if you run a successful business already, what will liscensure really gain you? When/If you get the liscence, will you move into another realm of work (CD's) or will you continue to grow with SD + DD? If you will continue with the work you already do, I see no reason to get liscenced. If you want to move into a pro-active "architectural role" with construction documents, obviously the liscensure is a necessary step you need to take.
Check the laws within your state. If you parter with a liscenced architect, you (unliscenced) may still be able to be a "principle" in the firm. Each state is different though. And remember, if anyone is signing drawings, buy as much insurance as you can afford, even if you never use it.
PS I am also in the same boat as you. I'd like to start my own design firm, and i'm leaning more towards marketing SD + DD rather than CD, because the insurance cost is lower, and who really wants to draw wall sections all day long...
Msg me via email, i'd like to talk to you further offline.
Me!!!! Me!!!! I want to draw wall sections all day long!!
Seriously: figuring out how an image can be created via quality construction is the best part of this profession.
i also enjoy that aspect of it as well. that and the free coffee.
I'm out of coffee, vado. Damn.
have some green tea.
the reason i believe you should go back to school, finish idp and pass the ARE is that i could not bare to go through life thinking i'm an architect, yet not actually being one. it would gnaw at me. sure, you can sustain and adapt your practice to not having the license, but if you want to be an architect, there's a very particular path you have to follow.
btw school is never a "waste of time." that statement is so utterly ridiculous i won't comment.
its a niche market I found, for sure....as my overhead is much lower than my Architect friends, as well as my customer base, wages, and perhaps, job security?... Jfidler is right, I will probably hit a wall one day with my entrepenurial ambitions and possibly seek rectification with NCARB out of shear nagging feelings,....but NCARB sucks, as far as I can tell...and so does crushing debt from the Masters path.
Running a business is hard enough much less making sure the dang buildings work. SO I do have respect for the profession in the sense that it has evolved to accommodate the free market. I guess, now my question is do I need to be a better business person (to keep up), or a better Architect? Not that its a choice necessarily, but I see complexities of financial aspect of design, that I never expected.
I am grateful for the comments here, especially all you radical advocates for "no school", ....even if G-School looks cool and crushingly expensive from a distance....i think the common message here is not so much whether there is an issue with the engagement of the bureaucracies of Architecture, rather the question of the engagement of the design community, whether it be with it be a single partner or something broader.
remember this ff33. if you return to school push the idea of The Instant Icon. ie Big Shiny Building With Holes In Them.
actually vado, I plan to champion the cause of 3d-h :-)
jafidler, of course you are correct that education is never a waste of time. But in ff33's case, in terms of his professional business pursuits, grad school seems unnecessary.
One of the reasons I am usually so hard-core in favor of licensure is that I, too, knew that not getting licensed would gnaw away at me and I would forever feel unfinished. Getting the license was an enormous sense of completion, worth every bit of NCARB hassle.
But, and this is huge: I do not have crushing grad school debt, as I got licensed with my BArch.
ff33: if you DO decide you need to get licensed, for whatever reason, I'd suggest going to a state school that seems in line with your thinking and won't cost a lot. As many of us here repeat ad nauseum, school is what you make of it, and even a middle-of-the-road school can be a great resource if you are active in seeking out opportunities.
as your girlfriend, I'm advising you to go to grad school
aw shit, how did you find me here?
Look ms.la these guys know what they are talking about.
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