btw I love red-lining. I find it one of the most rewarding things. I also enjoy people re-lining my work - to me its like crits in college, having someone go over your work, making it better. A co-worker with about 2 years more than I ended up with a full set of red lines and ink all over the place but wasn't egotistical about it - he knew what it was for...
btw Steven its been awhile since i've seen or heard anyone using the red&green conventions - flashback!
theantipodean - Even with technical/architectural knowledge, you must know be competent with the software to be able to use it. When I first started with BIM, there were instances where seemingly simple mistakes cost me a lot of time and headaches to fix. BIM is still relatively new so there are bound to be bugs and inefficiencies. Once that is ironed out though...
lets face it, autodesk will eventually create an AutoCAD without the need for human interface. it will design buildings by itself, it is inevitable. this is the era after all cad jobs are outsourced to asia, of course.
in order not to have this discussion wander too far off into the merits, or lack thereof, of bim, i'd like to hear how some from the older "drafting" generation feel about bim. is it something to be embraced? is it too foreign to put into practice?
in my office, similar to the antipods situation, older and younger staff are both struggling to figure out how to best use bim. some older team members have essentially been phased out from all production work because they don't have the cad skills to do much of anything. it's actually put a lot of power in the hands of the more tech savvy interns perhaps to the detriment of projects at times. principals and some project architects have been relegated to, as vado says, "standing over interns shoulders and saying 'move that dodad over there.'" it's not the best situation though gathering the team around the trusty ol' onion skin seems to be how team members at all levels communicate best.
No offenses old people, but Ive been working for you for 10 years now, and I really wish you'd just work part time, collect cheques, do some admin. and go play golf or something. Please relax and go away and let us just get things done efficiently, your medling and trying to express your supiriority is really screwing up your own projects. Step away from the design table, slowly.
Kinda Joke^ but not really
I find it ironic the "old people" boomers are starting to get crochety and cranky and a bit of a drag man, Dont bring me down man. Theyre becomminjg theyre parents!
I learned to BIM mostly from two guys, a 50 something year old cad technician, and a 40 something year old cad technician. one had worked construction in a previous career, the other had started right out of high school as a hand drafter in an architect's office. they had written a tutorial new employees followed which took 2-3 days. we had next to no bugs they couldn't solve instantly, they had all sorts of customized menus and ways of doing that the rest of the office followed with little argument. we did highly customized work, as large as hospitals and schools, campus buildings and college dorms, as small as retail TI's and single family, we used the bim stuff from 3-d perspectives and renderings to CD's. our consultants never complained about any incompatability.
philarch - I agree, if everyone has the same level of expertise, BIM would be wildly successful. My story is a cautionary tale of what not to do, and what happens when we jump into technology too quickly, without fully understanding the training and time and mistakes it takes to get a model to where it could / should be.
I have 30 year old friends who feel stupid old, even though they are registered architects, do 3D modelling and use AutoCAD proficiently. BIM has divided their office into those that can use the package, and those that can't. Their office refuses that their architect staff be trained in a draftspersons software package (cost? efficiency?). This is not a good thing. I don't think that an office can go into BIM without training everyone to the same level, regardless of their title.
My partner was so fascinated by 3D modelling and BIM, that he worked as a boat designer for a while, just to be in an industry that harnesses the capability of BIM fully. Of course, architects can't usually afford the luxury of a fully staffed prefabrication shop adjoining their office and limitless budgets to refine their building details. That would be cool.
shit in shit out...no other way to say it Philarch....don't make a bit off difference if you drafting by hand or by computer. So BIM isn't failing.... it is the organization which allows the shit in.
I wholeheartedly buy into the BIM concept. Up to that point the computer is not really doing anything for you other than makeing straight lines. BIM allows you to look at the building from angles not normally produced in CAD, and in real time. It pays dividends on the work I put in. As snooker says, the value and accuracy of this is up to the user. I can build a model and produce drawings containing every mistake I ever made in CAD if I want to, the software won't magically stop me.
And just to address the old/young angle that has cropped up, I've encountered just as many 20-30 year olds who resist BIM, probably more since they are the ones who have accumulated the CAD knowledge. I'd used acad for 11-12 years when we switched to Revit, and at first I hated it because now I was just as clueless as everyone else. But within a few months the former "expert" users had risen to that level, while the same "how do you plot" crowd had regained their title of office knuckleheads.
As for education, I actually think you can learn faster in a BIM environment than in CAD since you see parts in their relation to the whole. But the software itself just allows it to happen, you still have to have someone there to explain how it's supposed to go together.
i don't know revit yet.
i'm working with a drafter who has done the entire project in revit and we're completeing cd's at the moment.
i've found the experience to be incredibly frustrating and exciting.
frustrating because i believe from this drafter's perspective, the model spits out a shitload of lines and components such that either a) he's overloading trying to understand and control the generated linework and the software and/or b) he's deceived by the software into thinking issues have been solved just because the space is filled with lines.
i don't honestly at this point know whether i should ascribe this entirely to inexperience or lack of skill/ability to control the program. but that really is the point as far as i'm concerned. why are the interns being given the daunting responsibility of having to understand construction beyond what anyone should reasonably expect and at the same time be asked to master a complex program. the reality is that only a minority will be able to do it successfully - so where does that leave the rest of the offices?
this wasn't an issue with autocad or hand-drafting because you naturally worked from general to specific and white-space in a detail told you if a decision had yet to be made.
exciting because i can direct him to make a change that will cascade through many sheets and views and it happens so incredibly fast.
You raise valid points. Personally, I start turning off the model at a certain scale because 1) like you say the amount of linework becomes distracting, and 2) when it comes to a 1 1/2" detail, we've never drawn things as the are in reality. If you did, it would be illegible. you need to slightly "explode" details so they are readable, but you don't want to model things that way. This tends to be one of the areas detractors point to a say "see it doesn't work afterall", but I still think the benefits outweigh the shortcomings.
As for revolutionary architecture done with BIM, all I can think of off the top of my head is the Loblolly (sp?) house. Its not really revolutionary, but KTA's process that went into the construction process was pretty unique. The 4D & 5D (time & cost) development of BIM is going to be pretty interesting. I think the control and accessibility of BIM models are going to be important for Architects development in the future. Maybe BIM won't be killing this profession after all but perhaps take away responsibility from other professions like construction management and estimating.
Still these has to be coded before they can be computed, but true BIM is more advanced than just using the computer to keep track of the trivial logistics by a strict data post , the more computing options the better and with on screen easy user interface everyone shuld be happy, these things are flexible and so they will adabt so will we.
Now ofcaurse all I need, is easy autmomated by asking the computer "name" each building frame, and the calculations for strength of these shuld in theori be easy to compute by weigth of what rest ontop, --- what I mean is that with a different structural system you are allowed to experiment, do the intire model by your own experience and then you suddenly realise , that this is quite simular to what others call BIM.
ok...I've been gone for a few days and I really haven't had time to read everything since my last entry...but...
Go figure, I just got back from a 3 day seminar/observation workshop and guess what...I have a different perspective.
We spent a few hours on the "generational" differences, and what they mean. There are 4 defined right now, Traditionals (not in workforce any more), Baby boomers, Gen-X, and Millenials. The research showed that Gen-x'ers are not good managers...(I fall into this category) and Boomers have major issues taking orders from gen-xers and relating to Millenials. Guess what, I am managing a team with all 3 generations! my issue with the younger staff (as mentioned previously) was explained. I need to work with them and allow them to develop in their own...new way...while constantly looking over their shoulder (this is what the research showed)...
Me being from the "independent" generation (X), cannot assume that millenials are the same. I can't say I am 100% reformed, but I am more optimistic.
So is CAD killing the profession...NO.
Maybe the question could be: Are generational differences killing this profession?
I'm managing production with Baby Boomers, and millenials. I'm an X'r. There are no other X'rs anymore where I work. I dont know if this was a poular X'r career choice. I've found that Boomers are best at being owners and salespeople but make horrible team members. I spend 1/4 of my day fighting with them and their attitudes. True they're experiance is nice in pointing out flaws in the layout or design but the slowing of the work flow caused by their persistent complaining and upsetting of the team "spirit" isnt worth it. Most of the things they point out are items we will be figuring out as we go. I think it could be a general disapointment that they may not be owners/partners whatever and this is theyre way of venting. Worse, they seem to take no care in explaining anything technical to the next generation, its like intern neglect. I'd gladly take more newbies and get done quicker and smoother while addressing some of the design details as we go. They may be dumb (milenials) but they do what theyre told if explained completely. Remember everything they experianced generally has been part of a path or program so thats the approach you must take with them, hand holding. So I disagree X'rs are the worst managers. I think they are the most comprimising when it comes to fairness and dissolving office politics and "getting" it done no matter which way, a product ofast track, get it done yesterday era. I learned how to do things right after 12 years of watching how to do it wrong.
I use archicad, vectorworks and acad - 2 BIM/not really and CAD
when designing I use whatever conveys my thoughts..and more and more I'm finding that to be none of the above - rather a combination of sk'up and hand sketches...perhaps CAD in its wide form really is killing the profession
“That is the problem with so much architecture. This speed is impossible. Some people think the computer is so quick, for example. But the computer does not think for you, and the time it takes us to think does not change.” - Alavaro Siza
"An attitude taht has impressed me very much in the architecture and cities of our times, is the eagerness to finish everything quickly. this anxiety for a definitive solution prevents the different dimensions from complementing each other, the urban mesh and the monument, open space and construction. Today any intervention, however small and fragmentary it is , is immediately set on a final image: this explains the difficulty of interpenetration among the different parts of the city." Siza again.
not really distant. Im the project manager so any wasted time would be wasted project time hence my time. If I could fire them, I would. I will recomend their diminished role in future projects however.
Thats exactly the kind of attitude i'm talking about, they cant keep their mouths shut. Yes i am fun, and very democratic in dishing out the more fun aspects of the work to keep people interested.
But all I listen to is how the new kids dont know how to do this or that and then they huff and puff and make noise and hog the design work. Well guess what, they need to be guided thats how we pass on knoweledge, and frankly the older people are just too self absorbed and confrontational to give a shit, in my experiance.
Is CAD killing this profession?
btw I love red-lining. I find it one of the most rewarding things. I also enjoy people re-lining my work - to me its like crits in college, having someone go over your work, making it better. A co-worker with about 2 years more than I ended up with a full set of red lines and ink all over the place but wasn't egotistical about it - he knew what it was for...
btw Steven its been awhile since i've seen or heard anyone using the red&green conventions - flashback!
theantipodean - Even with technical/architectural knowledge, you must know be competent with the software to be able to use it. When I first started with BIM, there were instances where seemingly simple mistakes cost me a lot of time and headaches to fix. BIM is still relatively new so there are bound to be bugs and inefficiencies. Once that is ironed out though...
lets face it, autodesk will eventually create an AutoCAD without the need for human interface. it will design buildings by itself, it is inevitable. this is the era after all cad jobs are outsourced to asia, of course.
in order not to have this discussion wander too far off into the merits, or lack thereof, of bim, i'd like to hear how some from the older "drafting" generation feel about bim. is it something to be embraced? is it too foreign to put into practice?
in my office, similar to the antipods situation, older and younger staff are both struggling to figure out how to best use bim. some older team members have essentially been phased out from all production work because they don't have the cad skills to do much of anything. it's actually put a lot of power in the hands of the more tech savvy interns perhaps to the detriment of projects at times. principals and some project architects have been relegated to, as vado says, "standing over interns shoulders and saying 'move that dodad over there.'" it's not the best situation though gathering the team around the trusty ol' onion skin seems to be how team members at all levels communicate best.
No offenses old people, but Ive been working for you for 10 years now, and I really wish you'd just work part time, collect cheques, do some admin. and go play golf or something. Please relax and go away and let us just get things done efficiently, your medling and trying to express your supiriority is really screwing up your own projects. Step away from the design table, slowly.
Kinda Joke^ but not really
I find it ironic the "old people" boomers are starting to get crochety and cranky and a bit of a drag man, Dont bring me down man. Theyre becomminjg theyre parents!
I learned to BIM mostly from two guys, a 50 something year old cad technician, and a 40 something year old cad technician. one had worked construction in a previous career, the other had started right out of high school as a hand drafter in an architect's office. they had written a tutorial new employees followed which took 2-3 days. we had next to no bugs they couldn't solve instantly, they had all sorts of customized menus and ways of doing that the rest of the office followed with little argument. we did highly customized work, as large as hospitals and schools, campus buildings and college dorms, as small as retail TI's and single family, we used the bim stuff from 3-d perspectives and renderings to CD's. our consultants never complained about any incompatability.
oh, and both those guys I learned from would never go back to CAD, I know because I asked.
I love it - the prob is we dont use it! We have it sitting in the box over there - but the boss dont want to risk it, blah, blah, blah
I think all the menus and virtuality of it is the only way to keep the interns off the internet all day and interested if nothing else
at my current office, I have seen text drawn with lines. just the other day. fun.
philarch - I agree, if everyone has the same level of expertise, BIM would be wildly successful. My story is a cautionary tale of what not to do, and what happens when we jump into technology too quickly, without fully understanding the training and time and mistakes it takes to get a model to where it could / should be.
I have 30 year old friends who feel stupid old, even though they are registered architects, do 3D modelling and use AutoCAD proficiently. BIM has divided their office into those that can use the package, and those that can't. Their office refuses that their architect staff be trained in a draftspersons software package (cost? efficiency?). This is not a good thing. I don't think that an office can go into BIM without training everyone to the same level, regardless of their title.
My partner was so fascinated by 3D modelling and BIM, that he worked as a boat designer for a while, just to be in an industry that harnesses the capability of BIM fully. Of course, architects can't usually afford the luxury of a fully staffed prefabrication shop adjoining their office and limitless budgets to refine their building details. That would be cool.
shit in shit out...no other way to say it Philarch....don't make a bit off difference if you drafting by hand or by computer. So BIM isn't failing.... it is the organization which allows the shit in.
jafidler:
I wholeheartedly buy into the BIM concept. Up to that point the computer is not really doing anything for you other than makeing straight lines. BIM allows you to look at the building from angles not normally produced in CAD, and in real time. It pays dividends on the work I put in. As snooker says, the value and accuracy of this is up to the user. I can build a model and produce drawings containing every mistake I ever made in CAD if I want to, the software won't magically stop me.
And just to address the old/young angle that has cropped up, I've encountered just as many 20-30 year olds who resist BIM, probably more since they are the ones who have accumulated the CAD knowledge. I'd used acad for 11-12 years when we switched to Revit, and at first I hated it because now I was just as clueless as everyone else. But within a few months the former "expert" users had risen to that level, while the same "how do you plot" crowd had regained their title of office knuckleheads.
As for education, I actually think you can learn faster in a BIM environment than in CAD since you see parts in their relation to the whole. But the software itself just allows it to happen, you still have to have someone there to explain how it's supposed to go together.
you guys know of any revolutionary architecture done in BIM?
i don't know revit yet.
i'm working with a drafter who has done the entire project in revit and we're completeing cd's at the moment.
i've found the experience to be incredibly frustrating and exciting.
frustrating because i believe from this drafter's perspective, the model spits out a shitload of lines and components such that either a) he's overloading trying to understand and control the generated linework and the software and/or b) he's deceived by the software into thinking issues have been solved just because the space is filled with lines.
i don't honestly at this point know whether i should ascribe this entirely to inexperience or lack of skill/ability to control the program. but that really is the point as far as i'm concerned. why are the interns being given the daunting responsibility of having to understand construction beyond what anyone should reasonably expect and at the same time be asked to master a complex program. the reality is that only a minority will be able to do it successfully - so where does that leave the rest of the offices?
this wasn't an issue with autocad or hand-drafting because you naturally worked from general to specific and white-space in a detail told you if a decision had yet to be made.
exciting because i can direct him to make a change that will cascade through many sheets and views and it happens so incredibly fast.
the former owner of our firm, now 'retired' but working 20 hours a week, ONLY works in revit.
bim (revit) is fine. not magic, but good.
el jeffe:
You raise valid points. Personally, I start turning off the model at a certain scale because 1) like you say the amount of linework becomes distracting, and 2) when it comes to a 1 1/2" detail, we've never drawn things as the are in reality. If you did, it would be illegible. you need to slightly "explode" details so they are readable, but you don't want to model things that way. This tends to be one of the areas detractors point to a say "see it doesn't work afterall", but I still think the benefits outweigh the shortcomings.
when we used the bim, i guess there was a balance of using it and using the 2-D stuff. our 1 1/2" details were strictly 2-d.
As for revolutionary architecture done with BIM, all I can think of off the top of my head is the Loblolly (sp?) house. Its not really revolutionary, but KTA's process that went into the construction process was pretty unique. The 4D & 5D (time & cost) development of BIM is going to be pretty interesting. I think the control and accessibility of BIM models are going to be important for Architects development in the future. Maybe BIM won't be killing this profession after all but perhaps take away responsibility from other professions like construction management and estimating.
Still these has to be coded before they can be computed, but true BIM is more advanced than just using the computer to keep track of the trivial logistics by a strict data post , the more computing options the better and with on screen easy user interface everyone shuld be happy, these things are flexible and so they will adabt so will we.
Now ofcaurse all I need, is easy autmomated by asking the computer "name" each building frame, and the calculations for strength of these shuld in theori be easy to compute by weigth of what rest ontop, --- what I mean is that with a different structural system you are allowed to experiment, do the intire model by your own experience and then you suddenly realise , that this is quite simular to what others call BIM.
ok...I've been gone for a few days and I really haven't had time to read everything since my last entry...but...
Go figure, I just got back from a 3 day seminar/observation workshop and guess what...I have a different perspective.
We spent a few hours on the "generational" differences, and what they mean. There are 4 defined right now, Traditionals (not in workforce any more), Baby boomers, Gen-X, and Millenials. The research showed that Gen-x'ers are not good managers...(I fall into this category) and Boomers have major issues taking orders from gen-xers and relating to Millenials. Guess what, I am managing a team with all 3 generations! my issue with the younger staff (as mentioned previously) was explained. I need to work with them and allow them to develop in their own...new way...while constantly looking over their shoulder (this is what the research showed)...
Me being from the "independent" generation (X), cannot assume that millenials are the same. I can't say I am 100% reformed, but I am more optimistic.
So is CAD killing the profession...NO.
Maybe the question could be: Are generational differences killing this profession?
man, fuck this shit, i ask you this; is architecture killing the profession?
i am, at this moment, working on a plan to make my Wii AutoCAD 2008 compatible. fuck all this other monkey shit.
I'm managing production with Baby Boomers, and millenials. I'm an X'r. There are no other X'rs anymore where I work. I dont know if this was a poular X'r career choice. I've found that Boomers are best at being owners and salespeople but make horrible team members. I spend 1/4 of my day fighting with them and their attitudes. True they're experiance is nice in pointing out flaws in the layout or design but the slowing of the work flow caused by their persistent complaining and upsetting of the team "spirit" isnt worth it. Most of the things they point out are items we will be figuring out as we go. I think it could be a general disapointment that they may not be owners/partners whatever and this is theyre way of venting. Worse, they seem to take no care in explaining anything technical to the next generation, its like intern neglect. I'd gladly take more newbies and get done quicker and smoother while addressing some of the design details as we go. They may be dumb (milenials) but they do what theyre told if explained completely. Remember everything they experianced generally has been part of a path or program so thats the approach you must take with them, hand holding. So I disagree X'rs are the worst managers. I think they are the most comprimising when it comes to fairness and dissolving office politics and "getting" it done no matter which way, a product ofast track, get it done yesterday era. I learned how to do things right after 12 years of watching how to do it wrong.
questions that haven't been answered yet
how does BIM helped with practices limited to just a couple of people doing refabs and varied but small projects
are there advantages of ID's using BIM
we can see the advantages of design detail to cds but does it actually assist in creativity at design stage or anything but make them thorough
I use archicad, vectorworks and acad - 2 BIM/not really and CAD
when designing I use whatever conveys my thoughts..and more and more I'm finding that to be none of the above - rather a combination of sk'up and hand sketches...perhaps CAD in its wide form really is killing the profession
“That is the problem with so much architecture. This speed is impossible. Some people think the computer is so quick, for example. But the computer does not think for you, and the time it takes us to think does not change.” - Alavaro Siza
"An attitude taht has impressed me very much in the architecture and cities of our times, is the eagerness to finish everything quickly. this anxiety for a definitive solution prevents the different dimensions from complementing each other, the urban mesh and the monument, open space and construction. Today any intervention, however small and fragmentary it is , is immediately set on a final image: this explains the difficulty of interpenetration among the different parts of the city." Siza again.
some of the first interesting things i've heard from clamfan - and i also agree with his general diagnosis of differences in generational character.
and i'm copying both of those siza quotes into my collection.
should the profession be dying please tell me... i will apply for medicine!
clamfan
: another way of looking at your statement is: "they spend 1/4 of their day fighting with you and your attitudes."
not really distant. Im the project manager so any wasted time would be wasted project time hence my time. If I could fire them, I would. I will recomend their diminished role in future projects however.
hmmmm ... bet you're a bunch of fun to work with, and for ... such a spirit of teamwork.
Thats exactly the kind of attitude i'm talking about, they cant keep their mouths shut. Yes i am fun, and very democratic in dishing out the more fun aspects of the work to keep people interested.
But all I listen to is how the new kids dont know how to do this or that and then they huff and puff and make noise and hog the design work. Well guess what, they need to be guided thats how we pass on knoweledge, and frankly the older people are just too self absorbed and confrontational to give a shit, in my experiance.
... you might want to take a quick peek in the mirror, pal!
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