Everyone talks about how architects in America are underpaid because they aren't valued as highly as they should be, and in general, Americans aren't willing to pay premiums for the artistic/design element of their buildings. I've also heard about firece competition which undercuts commissions (and is probably fueled by a concern for cost efficiency).
SO... Is this also the case in Europe? More specifically, are architects more highly valued there, and are they paid accordingly?
Is Europe generally a more fertile place to be an architect?
I had the pleasure of working on a huge project in France (design work was done in the U.S., but was for a project to be built in France). The project team included French architects and engineers that were moved, temporarily, to the U.S. to work closely with the American design team. I got to know several of the French consultants very well and became good friends with several. We had endless conversations about architectural education and practice conditions in France versus the U.S. I have to tell you, it's the same everywhere. Hearing the French architects describe their experiences (aside from the heavy French accent) was identical to listening to any number of my U.S. compatriots. They don't get paid one bit better. The do have slightly better working conditions due to labor laws that mandate more vacation and a work culture that does not emphasize doing so much unpaid overtime work. Basically, what they told me is that the only way they can make a decent living is to work for one of the large engineering/construction companies. Working for a pure architecture firm was, essentially, the same experience we get here.
Although I do not have direct experience with the architecture work culture of any other country, my French friends assure me that it is pretty much the same all over Europe, at least.
as i understand it, although it's more open creatively and respectful of design in general, europe presents plenty of it's own challenges for architects. most populations are relatively stagnant therefore less need for new buildings and archtiects to design them. also, many cities are very protective of their urban (and often historic) cores, so again ample restraints that the architect must negotiate.
also, it's my understanding that american architects are actually among the best paid in the world. i'm pretty sure there was a study of that somewhere, but i don't recall the specifics.
the good news is that europe does seem to be more willing to trust young architects with significant commissions...provided that you can win the competition to get the commission.
it is all the same ----- more or less (europe counts many languages and laws and countries but generalizing, not generalizing you may want to ask for a specific country details portugal is different from finland, germany is different from italy, spain is different from sweden, poland is not like france)
I guess one of the things I thought might make a difference is the perception that European nations tend to fund more large public works (low/middle income housing etc.) - while favoring good design. And, I assumed that as a result, Europe would be a better place to practice.
Note that I said 'perception' because I realize that as an industry outsider I get my architecture info primarily from a few blogs and related sites...so I guess I'm not getting a totally accurate picture.
when I graduated from my university in germany three years ago, the situation was actually really bad for entry level architects & designers: the (often) only chance to get a job was by joining the famous army of "500 euro interns" - the so called "generation praktikum" (generation internship). all my design and architecture friends kept complaining about the same sad phenomenon, no matter if they went to rotterdam, milan, berlin, or barcelona: offices would hire ten 500 euro ($650) interns and kick them out after six months to get in new interns.
from what I've heard (I moved to california last year), the situation in europe is just getting a little better again, due to a slight economic growth. I hope that we reach healthy employment ethics in the architecture industry again in a few years.
do you think it's a matter of ethics?...not some sort of economic equilibrium?...perhaps it's unethical but there certainly seem to be people willing to work for that little, regardless of whether they'd prefer better pay.
oh yes, I'm absolutely seeing the economic pressure that was creating this very intense 'internship culture' in a post-boom time period. unfortunately, this developed to some kind of standard understatement and practice in many offices, especially in certain cities (I know at least 10 friends in the architecture and design industry who had to leave berlin after one or two years because of the bad [underpaid] vibe, and almost all of them moved on to hamburg where they found 'real' entry-level positions with decent salary right away...).
It seems that the conditions and pay are so weak over there, that a lot of them try to move out to the United States (NYC esp.) for a few years for better pay, which boggles my mind. I always also thought that the conditions there were a lot better, but then I am always surprised by the number of Europeans that seek to work in NYC, LA, Chicago.
sameolddoctor -
please tell me you were being sarcastic...
when i worked at a corporate firm here in the u.s., we had several internationals, asian + european.
the firm i worked for in germany also hired u.s. grads, even though it was a smaller firm.
i loved working my a$$ off for my 600 euros pro monat, but i wouldn't have done it any other way. if they'd have tripled my salary instead of tacking on another 200 euros, i would have stayed on longer...
interesting subject. i studied architecture and worked in australia, before moving to stuttgart where i was for 2 years and for the last 4years i have been in amsterdam.
i consider australia and amercia are very similar so i can relate to this question in comparison to europe.
but as was mentioned it so much depends on which european country as to what the answer is.
in my situation the thing i enjoy most is seeing and experiencing the architecture that i was always reading about. the magazines seemed to be full of great architecture from netherlands, germany, switzerland, spain...and being here means that architecture is part of my environment not just photos. for me that is a big plus.
in terms of being valued, for me in both germany and the netherlands i consider myself financially pretty comfortable, i can afford to buy an apartment in the centre amsterdam on one salary, take regular holidays, and dont have to watch the pennies that much.
so no complaints really.
i would not say that architects in europe are paid more because they are valued by society, but at least IMO there is more potential to do culturally significant work. especially when i compare to australia, where there isnt such a priority on spending money or architecture either from the government or private sector. but remember all this great 'state funded' architecture is paid partly by the high (compared to US) taxes. in germany (my second job after uni) i was only taking home 50% of the pay after tax.
big topic really and something i often discuss with friends back in australia. i left 6 years ago and havent been back - guess that says it all.
yes, the taxes make a huge difference in germany! taking off 50% for taxes and all kinds of social, health, and retirement insurances is pretty much standard (but also provide you with a nice cushion in case you get laid off or some other tragedy happens). a big bonus over there is the amount of paid vacation days which is usually around 30 per year (southern european countries may have less - my friend in italy has only 20).
a big blessing is also that we don't have to pay tuition for school!! or should i say...didn't use to....they're starting to raise tuitions for schools all over germany now to follow the american example... I graduated in 2004 and was kind of the last generation that spent their whole university time without paying tuitions. lucky me - seven years of architecture school FOR FREE!! :)))
Jun 20, 07 2:19 pm ·
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Architects in Europe
Everyone talks about how architects in America are underpaid because they aren't valued as highly as they should be, and in general, Americans aren't willing to pay premiums for the artistic/design element of their buildings. I've also heard about firece competition which undercuts commissions (and is probably fueled by a concern for cost efficiency).
SO... Is this also the case in Europe? More specifically, are architects more highly valued there, and are they paid accordingly?
Is Europe generally a more fertile place to be an architect?
I had the pleasure of working on a huge project in France (design work was done in the U.S., but was for a project to be built in France). The project team included French architects and engineers that were moved, temporarily, to the U.S. to work closely with the American design team. I got to know several of the French consultants very well and became good friends with several. We had endless conversations about architectural education and practice conditions in France versus the U.S. I have to tell you, it's the same everywhere. Hearing the French architects describe their experiences (aside from the heavy French accent) was identical to listening to any number of my U.S. compatriots. They don't get paid one bit better. The do have slightly better working conditions due to labor laws that mandate more vacation and a work culture that does not emphasize doing so much unpaid overtime work. Basically, what they told me is that the only way they can make a decent living is to work for one of the large engineering/construction companies. Working for a pure architecture firm was, essentially, the same experience we get here.
Although I do not have direct experience with the architecture work culture of any other country, my French friends assure me that it is pretty much the same all over Europe, at least.
as i understand it, although it's more open creatively and respectful of design in general, europe presents plenty of it's own challenges for architects. most populations are relatively stagnant therefore less need for new buildings and archtiects to design them. also, many cities are very protective of their urban (and often historic) cores, so again ample restraints that the architect must negotiate.
also, it's my understanding that american architects are actually among the best paid in the world. i'm pretty sure there was a study of that somewhere, but i don't recall the specifics.
the good news is that europe does seem to be more willing to trust young architects with significant commissions...provided that you can win the competition to get the commission.
it is all the same ----- more or less (europe counts many languages and laws and countries but generalizing, not generalizing you may want to ask for a specific country details portugal is different from finland, germany is different from italy, spain is different from sweden, poland is not like france)
swiss architects are probably the highest paid in europe
huh, interesting, thanks for the insights.
I guess one of the things I thought might make a difference is the perception that European nations tend to fund more large public works (low/middle income housing etc.) - while favoring good design. And, I assumed that as a result, Europe would be a better place to practice.
Note that I said 'perception' because I realize that as an industry outsider I get my architecture info primarily from a few blogs and related sites...so I guess I'm not getting a totally accurate picture.
when I graduated from my university in germany three years ago, the situation was actually really bad for entry level architects & designers: the (often) only chance to get a job was by joining the famous army of "500 euro interns" - the so called "generation praktikum" (generation internship). all my design and architecture friends kept complaining about the same sad phenomenon, no matter if they went to rotterdam, milan, berlin, or barcelona: offices would hire ten 500 euro ($650) interns and kick them out after six months to get in new interns.
from what I've heard (I moved to california last year), the situation in europe is just getting a little better again, due to a slight economic growth. I hope that we reach healthy employment ethics in the architecture industry again in a few years.
if its the same both here and there, why are the cities in europe so beautiful?
do you think it's a matter of ethics?...not some sort of economic equilibrium?...perhaps it's unethical but there certainly seem to be people willing to work for that little, regardless of whether they'd prefer better pay.
oh yes, I'm absolutely seeing the economic pressure that was creating this very intense 'internship culture' in a post-boom time period. unfortunately, this developed to some kind of standard understatement and practice in many offices, especially in certain cities (I know at least 10 friends in the architecture and design industry who had to leave berlin after one or two years because of the bad [underpaid] vibe, and almost all of them moved on to hamburg where they found 'real' entry-level positions with decent salary right away...).
any more europeans in here?
It seems that the conditions and pay are so weak over there, that a lot of them try to move out to the United States (NYC esp.) for a few years for better pay, which boggles my mind. I always also thought that the conditions there were a lot better, but then I am always surprised by the number of Europeans that seek to work in NYC, LA, Chicago.
sameolddoctor -
please tell me you were being sarcastic...
when i worked at a corporate firm here in the u.s., we had several internationals, asian + european.
the firm i worked for in germany also hired u.s. grads, even though it was a smaller firm.
i loved working my a$$ off for my 600 euros pro monat, but i wouldn't have done it any other way. if they'd have tripled my salary instead of tacking on another 200 euros, i would have stayed on longer...
interesting subject. i studied architecture and worked in australia, before moving to stuttgart where i was for 2 years and for the last 4years i have been in amsterdam.
i consider australia and amercia are very similar so i can relate to this question in comparison to europe.
but as was mentioned it so much depends on which european country as to what the answer is.
in my situation the thing i enjoy most is seeing and experiencing the architecture that i was always reading about. the magazines seemed to be full of great architecture from netherlands, germany, switzerland, spain...and being here means that architecture is part of my environment not just photos. for me that is a big plus.
in terms of being valued, for me in both germany and the netherlands i consider myself financially pretty comfortable, i can afford to buy an apartment in the centre amsterdam on one salary, take regular holidays, and dont have to watch the pennies that much.
so no complaints really.
i would not say that architects in europe are paid more because they are valued by society, but at least IMO there is more potential to do culturally significant work. especially when i compare to australia, where there isnt such a priority on spending money or architecture either from the government or private sector. but remember all this great 'state funded' architecture is paid partly by the high (compared to US) taxes. in germany (my second job after uni) i was only taking home 50% of the pay after tax.
big topic really and something i often discuss with friends back in australia. i left 6 years ago and havent been back - guess that says it all.
yes, the taxes make a huge difference in germany! taking off 50% for taxes and all kinds of social, health, and retirement insurances is pretty much standard (but also provide you with a nice cushion in case you get laid off or some other tragedy happens). a big bonus over there is the amount of paid vacation days which is usually around 30 per year (southern european countries may have less - my friend in italy has only 20).
a big blessing is also that we don't have to pay tuition for school!! or should i say...didn't use to....they're starting to raise tuitions for schools all over germany now to follow the american example... I graduated in 2004 and was kind of the last generation that spent their whole university time without paying tuitions. lucky me - seven years of architecture school FOR FREE!! :)))
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