I was just curious what it was like for a GSD student post graduation? Are the offers/networking good, is there alot of opportunities. Bascially is it worth it to be a GSD M-Arch student and pay 50g's a year?
I have had a number of friends go through the program and most have had good experineces and moved on to work for good firms. Is it worth it? That is a question to the individual. A talented person can get the same or similar opportunities with a little ambition and some luck.
tumbleweed..I thought they were saying to get paid that at first as well...I think they are saying ...to pay 50K per year for your education..is it worth it.
one more note...the GSD degree is worth more the further you get away from Cambridge/Boston. Dime a dozen here...in fact it is an extra hurdle to be a GSD grad and get hired at the firm I work at. Seems ego and a common sense of entitlement sometimes comes with the degree...:)
You can argue all you want about the value of GSD degree. The reality is that the "Harvard" name on a resume will open doors. I was told by a professor in college, who is also the former governor of a New England state, that the Harvard name will almost always put your resume on the top of the pile. Going to Harvard, or other prestigious institutions, will not guarantee employment or success but getting to the top is just that much easier. If the name did not matter, why would the competition be so cut throat at specific colleges and universities? So, you ask whether $50k a year is a good investment? I say absolutely. Who turns down Harvard (or Yale, Columbia, etc.) anyway? I know that I could not and did not.
The point that I am trying to make is that it is worth it!
However, I do believe that school and life is what you make of it. So, going to the GSD does not guarantee anything, but it can make finding your dream job a little easier.
soon you will graduate, the next five years will pass very quickly, after which point, you and the rest of the world will not give a damn what school you went to.
It's (almost) all about where you want to go later. You go there for connections (both profs & students - inside and outside your arch studio) and investing in your "potential" opportunities.
I do not know the exact figure, but only a small percentage of GSD grads pursue an architectural stamp.
if "it doesn't matter" then why is it every time I hear a lecturer introduced, read an article about an architect, read a bio of a professor, etc... the first sentence states where they went to school? This is true [usually] without exception. I would add to this that, quite often, said person attended an Ivy League school.
I keep hearing "it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter"...and I'd love to believe that....but take a look at the professors at the top Arch schools (not just IVY's) and you'll see that a huge percentage of the faculty went to an Ivy League School. I want to teach one day, so that is definitely a factor.
who could argue that it's all about the connections, the references, and the resume cache? yes, it is worth it initially. it's like an escalator to a higher status level. while those of us who went to state schools have to take the stairs.
caveat is, you have to pay money to ride the escalator
I went to University of Cincinnati and got paid to work in the offices of many of the professors who you are going to end up paying $50k + a year to take their studios. Could have gotten a job with them after school had I chosen to (they were 'starchitects', btw).
most people here are taking an extremely limited view of what a school like the gsd does - almost, without exception, all i'm reading are comments about 'what does it get me within the profession, right out of school?' look beyond the profession itself - harvard, perhaps more than any other school in this country, is a truly global brand. it opens so many doors outside of the profession itself it almost isn't funny. you want instant credibility as an architect? drop that ivy league degree on your resume. it matters. it may not be 'fair', but it does work.
no school is a guarantee for anything. there are plenty of ivy league grads who never amount to much in their careers (on any level), who are windbags, etc. and plenty of non-ivy trained architects who have excelled. so what? it doesn't change the fact that the 'harvard name' will almost always carry a certain value. that's just life.
well if you can afford it, i say go for it. but if money is an issue then you may want to go a different route. again, i have been harping on this lately, but the necessity to go to grad school for this profession is ricockulous. you don't need it. you may want it. but you don't need it. and if you want it do it.
Tumbleweed- I think I remember hearing the figure from a Toshiko Mori lecture a year or two ago. She was speaking about the slow pace of material innovations and how many come from outside the architectural industry... then she quickly mentioned an average figure of grads that go on to become licensed and finally mentioned the gsd grad figure. She was building a case for a much wider view of the profession, but I couldn't get my mind around how/why so few gsd grads set goals within this profession.
all others- refer to the stair vs. escalator description above.
as others are saying, if money is no object, then why not? Personally, I haven't seen good student work come out of there for ages (well, I haven't looked in a while, but the mid-late 90s was pretty bad).
I've always let my work speak for itself, too. Good and bad students everywhere.
I agree with vado - I did not need my grad education. It was 'fun', and I learned that I didn't want to stay in a traditional practice (so I learned 3D, graphic and web design while in grad school). other than that, though, i could have entered the profession after year 3 of undergrad.
Oh, and dont' underestimate how burdensome large debt can be. It'll be the reason you leave architecture if you don't have family money.
The Harvard name is worth $$. Is it worth $50k per year? Not on your life, but that depends on what $50k means to you.
vado....do you mind if I ask how much professional experience you have? Meaning, when did you graduate from school (MArch or BArch)? It seems you have been out for a while (and obviously have more experience than “us”....
My experience in going into the industry right after graduation (2006) is that right now, in 2007 and as a "beginner,” you have to have a masters in order to be considered. Many job postings specifically state Master's degrees are required. With more and more people going to college and more and more people studying architecture, it seems a masters is necessary to be competitive. You do need it. That is if you starting your career now....
If you graduated 5+ years ago, your experience may be different- a BArch may have been sufficient and now your experience allows you to stand out.
Other's of us need our Masters because we don't have BArch's. I took a different route, because I want a different focus and an MArch is just the next step of my plan and definitely necessary for me to become an Architect.
Finally, whatever happened to wanting to get a Masters for the sake of a better education? I want to learn what they teach in an MArch, I want to have those experiences, and I want to teach one day (which requires a Masters in a lot of schools).
Do I "need" a Master’s degree? Only if I want to follow my dreams...
50k can turn into about the same as state schools with scholarships and TAships, and if you only want to be a traditional architect and stand in line like most architects, then the ivy's are not worth it for you, but if you want to expand you opportunities outside of architecture into fields can be more lucrative that utilize the skills and ways of thinking you gain during grad school, then yes, i think it is worth it and that is why i went ivy. and i just got to NY city and i cant think of a better place for me to be for the next three years. i do understand your "they have their head up their ass" attitude towards gsd'ers though mdler, i know a few that way, but those are the ones who went there so they can say they went there. i personally didnt even apply to harvard, i only applied to one ivy, but that is because i really liked the program and not the name.
Financially it's likely a stupid decision for any architect to pay $50k per year for a degree--unless Mommy and Daddy foot the bill or you have some awesome scholarship. An architect's salary just never goes far enough, even without crushing debt. We're not doctors here, who can easly repay $200,000 within a few years.
However, it will definitely help you out in the long run. Will it help you more than a degree from Michigan or Berkley? Only in some cases. If your portfolio is average, no one will care where you went to school. And seven-ten years down the line, no one will care either, unless you want to teach and need academic credentials. It's really about getting your first job or three.
@ 50k per year @ a min of 2 years that's 100k to shell out, right?
what does OMA, FOG, SOM pay it's grad students?
if you are measuring strictly by the number then how can it be worth it?
if you are not then why do you care? college education is not supposed to be another piece of bling, yet for some fucked up reason we treat it that way.
i had a professor that graduated with his Phd from Catholic University, taught at Cooper, was friends with Hejduk, and is friends with all of the "names" in architecture, and as far as I know never taught at Harvard. he taught at my state school. would i trade that experience under him for a Harvard education? not even if you paid me that 100k.
Ivy is of course worth it for law, medicine and business. You cannot 'see' the results from those careers, so it's all based on credentials. Architecture is 100% visual, at least coming out of school, so the work will speak for itself.
while i am not necessarily a fan of over-rated, over-priced academies, i will take exception with the phase "It's really about getting your first job or three."
education is about life, not the first 3-4 years of your career. if someone believes a certain institution provides the best combination of academic rigor, access to resources, exposure to special faculty, connections to great people, special experiences -- and can afford the ticket for admission -- then i say "go for it" -- take a long-term view of the matter and make the choice that makes sense for you.
"investment" is not always an economic calculation -- if it were, Mercedes, Lexus and BMW would never sell any cars
again the only way to solve the great university debate is to have a design olympiad hosted by archinect where different uni's can once and for all prove who is the best.
you're certainly not getting a worse education at gsd than you would be at other institutions. if you have the opportunity, like the program, and can afford to go, why wouldnt you?
sounds a little bit like sour grapes in this thread.
Is it worth it to be a GSD graduate?
I was just curious what it was like for a GSD student post graduation? Are the offers/networking good, is there alot of opportunities. Bascially is it worth it to be a GSD M-Arch student and pay 50g's a year?
I have had a number of friends go through the program and most have had good experineces and moved on to work for good firms. Is it worth it? That is a question to the individual. A talented person can get the same or similar opportunities with a little ambition and some luck.
tumbleweed..I thought they were saying to get paid that at first as well...I think they are saying ...to pay 50K per year for your education..is it worth it.
one more note...the GSD degree is worth more the further you get away from Cambridge/Boston. Dime a dozen here...in fact it is an extra hurdle to be a GSD grad and get hired at the firm I work at. Seems ego and a common sense of entitlement sometimes comes with the degree...:)
big ten rules!
i have worked with many GSD students who werent worth their weight in lead
mdler:: what were your problems with gsd grads?
they were full of themselves in the office...thought that they were better than that, and shouldnt be building models
could have just been the individuals, but have heard the same things from other people
50K a year? wtf???
You can argue all you want about the value of GSD degree. The reality is that the "Harvard" name on a resume will open doors. I was told by a professor in college, who is also the former governor of a New England state, that the Harvard name will almost always put your resume on the top of the pile. Going to Harvard, or other prestigious institutions, will not guarantee employment or success but getting to the top is just that much easier. If the name did not matter, why would the competition be so cut throat at specific colleges and universities? So, you ask whether $50k a year is a good investment? I say absolutely. Who turns down Harvard (or Yale, Columbia, etc.) anyway? I know that I could not and did not.
You may get doors opened for you with a degree from an Ivy, but I don't exactly get doors slammed in my face...
I have never been asked about my education in a job interview...I let my work speak for itself
'Is it worth it to be a GSD graduate?'
yes...if you think that stuff like that matters
precisely.
The point that I am trying to make is that it is worth it!
However, I do believe that school and life is what you make of it. So, going to the GSD does not guarantee anything, but it can make finding your dream job a little easier.
It's your call
soon you will graduate, the next five years will pass very quickly, after which point, you and the rest of the world will not give a damn what school you went to.
if you want to get a faculty position at the university of texas, it is practically requirement #1
I have my dream job...didnt go to GSD
It's (almost) all about where you want to go later. You go there for connections (both profs & students - inside and outside your arch studio) and investing in your "potential" opportunities.
I do not know the exact figure, but only a small percentage of GSD grads pursue an architectural stamp.
my short answer: yes, absolutely.
(and i'll echo the sentiment that it's 'worth' more the farther you stay away from la/ny/boston).
otherwise, i'm going to stay out of the pissing match here.
if "it doesn't matter" then why is it every time I hear a lecturer introduced, read an article about an architect, read a bio of a professor, etc... the first sentence states where they went to school? This is true [usually] without exception. I would add to this that, quite often, said person attended an Ivy League school.
I keep hearing "it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter"...and I'd love to believe that....but take a look at the professors at the top Arch schools (not just IVY's) and you'll see that a huge percentage of the faculty went to an Ivy League School. I want to teach one day, so that is definitely a factor.
who could argue that it's all about the connections, the references, and the resume cache? yes, it is worth it initially. it's like an escalator to a higher status level. while those of us who went to state schools have to take the stairs.
caveat is, you have to pay money to ride the escalator
it's a club. if you're in the club, you care; if you're not, you don't.
archinect's been pretty slow these last couple days for me to be participating in a grad school thread.
I went to University of Cincinnati and got paid to work in the offices of many of the professors who you are going to end up paying $50k + a year to take their studios. Could have gotten a job with them after school had I chosen to (they were 'starchitects', btw).
I don't think the question is do Harvard grads get more opportunities or get paid better than other grads. The question is "Is it worth it?"
How can anyone know? But at 50k a year debt, how can it?
most people here are taking an extremely limited view of what a school like the gsd does - almost, without exception, all i'm reading are comments about 'what does it get me within the profession, right out of school?' look beyond the profession itself - harvard, perhaps more than any other school in this country, is a truly global brand. it opens so many doors outside of the profession itself it almost isn't funny. you want instant credibility as an architect? drop that ivy league degree on your resume. it matters. it may not be 'fair', but it does work.
no school is a guarantee for anything. there are plenty of ivy league grads who never amount to much in their careers (on any level), who are windbags, etc. and plenty of non-ivy trained architects who have excelled. so what? it doesn't change the fact that the 'harvard name' will almost always carry a certain value. that's just life.
well if you can afford it, i say go for it. but if money is an issue then you may want to go a different route. again, i have been harping on this lately, but the necessity to go to grad school for this profession is ricockulous. you don't need it. you may want it. but you don't need it. and if you want it do it.
Tumbleweed- I think I remember hearing the figure from a Toshiko Mori lecture a year or two ago. She was speaking about the slow pace of material innovations and how many come from outside the architectural industry... then she quickly mentioned an average figure of grads that go on to become licensed and finally mentioned the gsd grad figure. She was building a case for a much wider view of the profession, but I couldn't get my mind around how/why so few gsd grads set goals within this profession.
all others- refer to the stair vs. escalator description above.
im non ivey and a windbag!
as others are saying, if money is no object, then why not? Personally, I haven't seen good student work come out of there for ages (well, I haven't looked in a while, but the mid-late 90s was pretty bad).
I've always let my work speak for itself, too. Good and bad students everywhere.
I agree with vado - I did not need my grad education. It was 'fun', and I learned that I didn't want to stay in a traditional practice (so I learned 3D, graphic and web design while in grad school). other than that, though, i could have entered the profession after year 3 of undergrad.
Oh, and dont' underestimate how burdensome large debt can be. It'll be the reason you leave architecture if you don't have family money.
The Harvard name is worth $$. Is it worth $50k per year? Not on your life, but that depends on what $50k means to you.
vado....do you mind if I ask how much professional experience you have? Meaning, when did you graduate from school (MArch or BArch)? It seems you have been out for a while (and obviously have more experience than “us”....
My experience in going into the industry right after graduation (2006) is that right now, in 2007 and as a "beginner,” you have to have a masters in order to be considered. Many job postings specifically state Master's degrees are required. With more and more people going to college and more and more people studying architecture, it seems a masters is necessary to be competitive. You do need it. That is if you starting your career now....
If you graduated 5+ years ago, your experience may be different- a BArch may have been sufficient and now your experience allows you to stand out.
Other's of us need our Masters because we don't have BArch's. I took a different route, because I want a different focus and an MArch is just the next step of my plan and definitely necessary for me to become an Architect.
Finally, whatever happened to wanting to get a Masters for the sake of a better education? I want to learn what they teach in an MArch, I want to have those experiences, and I want to teach one day (which requires a Masters in a lot of schools).
Do I "need" a Master’s degree? Only if I want to follow my dreams...
50k can turn into about the same as state schools with scholarships and TAships, and if you only want to be a traditional architect and stand in line like most architects, then the ivy's are not worth it for you, but if you want to expand you opportunities outside of architecture into fields can be more lucrative that utilize the skills and ways of thinking you gain during grad school, then yes, i think it is worth it and that is why i went ivy. and i just got to NY city and i cant think of a better place for me to be for the next three years. i do understand your "they have their head up their ass" attitude towards gsd'ers though mdler, i know a few that way, but those are the ones who went there so they can say they went there. i personally didnt even apply to harvard, i only applied to one ivy, but that is because i really liked the program and not the name.
grad school will teach me how to think....wtf?
i think that ivy leauge pre-school is much more important that ivy leauge grad school
i have a masters degree.
ivy is definitely worth it...but i'd encourage skippimg the m.arch. in favor of either a law degree or mba.
if school did not influence the way you think, then it was a waste of time no matter where you went!
gotta give the point to mental on this one...and mdler, if you think gsd'ers are bad, wait until you meet a harvard mba...pfffew.
btw, i've worked with many gsd grads. they've all been great.
Financially it's likely a stupid decision for any architect to pay $50k per year for a degree--unless Mommy and Daddy foot the bill or you have some awesome scholarship. An architect's salary just never goes far enough, even without crushing debt. We're not doctors here, who can easly repay $200,000 within a few years.
However, it will definitely help you out in the long run. Will it help you more than a degree from Michigan or Berkley? Only in some cases. If your portfolio is average, no one will care where you went to school. And seven-ten years down the line, no one will care either, unless you want to teach and need academic credentials. It's really about getting your first job or three.
for the record, out of state tuition at Michigan is just about as much as tuition at any ivy.
but, hey, if the program fits, then it's worth it.
maybe it's been said, but
@ 50k per year @ a min of 2 years that's 100k to shell out, right?
what does OMA, FOG, SOM pay it's grad students?
if you are measuring strictly by the number then how can it be worth it?
if you are not then why do you care? college education is not supposed to be another piece of bling, yet for some fucked up reason we treat it that way.
i had a professor that graduated with his Phd from Catholic University, taught at Cooper, was friends with Hejduk, and is friends with all of the "names" in architecture, and as far as I know never taught at Harvard. he taught at my state school. would i trade that experience under him for a Harvard education? not even if you paid me that 100k.
if you are not then why do you care?
Cut to the point. (Brutally) well said.
eighttwo after hearing all this i think the question is: is it worth it to you?
more chatter for your eyes:
http://www.archinect.com/forum/threads.php?id=54316_0_42_0_C
lb, sometimes, and it seems just a few times at that, i am prone to moments of clarity.
Ivy is of course worth it for law, medicine and business. You cannot 'see' the results from those careers, so it's all based on credentials. Architecture is 100% visual, at least coming out of school, so the work will speak for itself.
while i am not necessarily a fan of over-rated, over-priced academies, i will take exception with the phase "It's really about getting your first job or three."
education is about life, not the first 3-4 years of your career. if someone believes a certain institution provides the best combination of academic rigor, access to resources, exposure to special faculty, connections to great people, special experiences -- and can afford the ticket for admission -- then i say "go for it" -- take a long-term view of the matter and make the choice that makes sense for you.
"investment" is not always an economic calculation -- if it were, Mercedes, Lexus and BMW would never sell any cars
again the only way to solve the great university debate is to have a design olympiad hosted by archinect where different uni's can once and for all prove who is the best.
you're certainly not getting a worse education at gsd than you would be at other institutions. if you have the opportunity, like the program, and can afford to go, why wouldnt you?
sounds a little bit like sour grapes in this thread.
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