I'll vouch for WhatToDo in terms of the job market seeming to require an MArch these days. I'm just going to be a senior in my undergraduate program this fall but just in my casual searches for firms that might be hiring, I've found that most places are asking for a professional degree. It's frustrating considering i won't be graduating with a professional degree next spring, but it is more incentive for me to go to grad school regardless of it being an Ivy or not in order to get a job in the area i want to live in.
"education is about life, not the first 3-4 years of your career."
I actually agree with you there, but the original question was if it was worth the money... I'm saying that if you have to borrow the money, the equation is more complicated due to the burden of crushing debt. However, if you are lucky enough to have your parents pay for it, or to get a great scholarship, you probably can't beat an Ivy League education in terms of the doors it will open for you.
Let's face it... You can get a great architectural education without going Ivy. By going to the GSD or a similar school, you ARE paying for the name and the brand, and it will largely help you in cases where people care about these things, i.e. academia or in your first few jobs. After you have experience, most employers care more about where you've WORKED, not where you've gone to school.
I'm gettin my barch, and hopefully and M.Eng after that (if its even possible, or a B.Eng) and I'm callin it at that I don't want to spend 3 more years on top of my first 5 in studio but thats just me.
Just fucking go to GSD if you have the money man, if you don't you'll be paying off loans for a loooong time, and always remeber you will be paid the EXACT same amount of money out of school as the poor schlup who went to State U. CADing away next to you at the office. The wonderful thing about architecture in the U.S. of A. is your boss likely will not even give a shit what school you went to as long as you know how to close a goddamn polyline.
The above statement applies to everyone who keeps soliciting for Ivy grad school info here asking us to make a descision for you, if you have the money just GO, and stop bugging about it! If you don't ask your self is the debt really worth it?
Apurimac ... calm down dude ... I'd much rather these folks explore their options here (even if it is, as you suggest, rather annoying) than make a huge mistake that they would regret later ... that's the main purpose of these forums ... to let people explore issues before they screw up.
Where did this $50K a year number come from? Is that including room & board, living expenses, insurence, supplies and books?
I will say this, I know of people who got into both the GSD and some excellent state programs and after receiving aid from all schools, the GSD was cheaper.
The GSD is a really good school, and I don't think there's anything more worth the money than that, I'm crossposting this, an old rant I posted on a previous thread about this topic:
[repost] A (good) graduate education in architecture is the best, most worthwhile education out there for your money.
Where else do you get to make things, draw, play with extremely high technology hardware and software, talk and write and research interesting, relevant ideas from just about every aspect of human culture and history, and compare and discuss it all with a group of some of the smartest people you'll ever meet, in an environment that rewards and praises versatility, hard work, craft and rigor?
Really, can you think of a better way to spend your time and money? If you hit some rock star lottery, too, all the better. But that's just icing, man. When you get out of a good grad school with an MArch you have learned to think, and make things that reflect thought. That's important and worthwhile no matter where you end up working.
I'm getting a little burnt out on the pro-tech-school mentality that's creeping through these forums lately. If you want to go and do that, that's fine, go for it, but if you want to challenge yourself and come out of school with some ability to apply critical thought, then don't cheat yourself.
I'll say it again: grad school for architecture, when done right, is the best education out there. Period. [/repost]
... and @ vado, and anybody else that wants to perpetuate tired ass stereotypes: the majority of kids I know from good schools, Ivy and otherwise, aren't 'trustfunders', they're from all kinds of diverse backgrounds, if there're any defining characteristics, it's their intelligence and openmindedness, qualities maybe some of you could learn from.
(disclaimer, not all Ivies are that great, not all great schools are Ivy, but the GSD is both, and no, I didn't go there)
there are three reasons to go to one of the top schools:
a.) as 765 said, for the experience of going to the school itself.
b.) you hope to go into academia. will look good on a resume.
c.) you hope to get an internship with a starchitect. DISCLAIMER: this type of internship will last one to two years tops. after which time, you will have to get a real job that pays a salary to pay off student loans where they will likely not care much where you went to school.
btw none of these options will help you start your own practice if that is what you are interested in.
To learn new things & ideas - to learn an approach to looking at things and approaching problems - whole 3rd paragraph up there - processes - how to benefit from (and tolerate) criticism - lovely to learn all that.
@ namby - no, I read that again and it wasn't clear - I mean a method, just like you said, an approach, not like brainwashing, actually just the opposite!
@ vado - I just get tired of all the trustfund references that come up whenever this topic comes through, that doesn't jibe with my, or my friends experiences, and besides, the trustfunders that I do know are really nice people, too! :]
and for the nontrustfunders, the loans aren't that bad, check other topics for the breakdown.
just for the record this blog was not started to have another pro ivy vs. anti ivy league debate, it was just merely a question as to what GSD graduates are doing now and if they thought their experience at harvard was worth it or not. It is obvious that ivy leagues do make a difference, to some extent, but I was simply trying to find out what the Harvard Graduate student is doing now post graduate studies. not to argue between what is better, because that is a never - ending story. but thanks to those with the positive advice & reasoning, it was great feedback for the most part.
If it helps, I've seen more GSD grads at the top of developer firms.
That's where I've seen 'em.
'Course, maybe it was theit MBA that got them to the top.
Personally, I considered Ivy, as did many of the undergrad classmates, but in the end we all thought we'd get a better education elsewhere. Money is always an issue, but at that point (when I was younger, naive and blinded by passion for design) I would have sucked up the debt (God knows I owe enough, what's another 30k+?)
as an aside, when I was in school the two professors who were doing the most critical work didnt not have graduate level degrees. This became an issue in the academic world because the university wanted to claim that their professors had all recieved an advanced level education...the architecture magazines, awards, and clients (as well as the students) could care less about these two professor's schooling
i think mdler is just bitter because you wanted to go to an ivy league but didnt make it -- all you have said is negative comments regarding this blog when this blog has nothing to do with how bad an ivy league school is. i suggest you go back to school and learn what is the difference between constructive advice and ignorant judgement
I also ended up having the opportunitiy to work for exactly who I wanted to while in school...have very little student loan debt out of school...got a great job (was never asked about my schooling in the interview)
I also went to a great school which is looked down upon (on this website) because it is a state school and not an Ivy
from what i've read on these boards, it seems like the only schools that get "looked down upon" are the ivies. i read more about harvard/yale/penn sucking than i do about the pros of other programs.
from my experience, people who dont go to an ivy league school talk more about the "Ivy Leauge" than people who go there.
bravo xacto! I don't rag on cincy or UCLA because I'm not going there. Though I got in, I found something that is better for ME in another school. No one seems to bitch at people for going to SCI_Arc even though quite often, if you're not offered aid, it costs more than an Ivy w/ aid. UT Austin cost more for me than Penn...
tumbleweed, i agree with that too. i never really thought threads like this were about figuring out what school to go to - its more of a "look at me" thing. and i can understand why that pisses people off.
if people want to ask specific questions about a specific program i think these threads would get a lot less negative attention. but asking, whats better, penn, harvard, columbia, or yale is like asking whats better, apples, oranges, cherries, or watermellon. obviously the answer is cherry.
As a graduate of GSD I asked myself this question alot before I decided to go. Of course going in I debated whether or not I wanted to put myself into more debt (I didn't pay anywhere near the full ticket price thank goodness but it still was a lot of money) I already had a 5 year degree from a pretty good school so going to graduate school was 'optional' anyway. In the end i decided to just go. While I don't think the degree translates into big bucks or automatic employment greatness, I don't regret my decision. I loved living in Cambridge and taking advantage of all that the Boston area had to offer. I met a lot of interesting people at harvard and MIT. The professors and lectures were interesting, and I got to travel to places that I never would have had the opportunity to visit otherwise.
I'll admit, a lot of my classmates were (are) assholes, but many of them were also very kind and talented and I still speak with them regularly.
My advise is to go to the school that you want go to. We can't justify or validate your reasons. If you are spending money-any sort of money-I think it is worth it to suck it up and go to the school of your choosing. I wouldn't go to a cheaper school you really don't want to be at just to save some money. Visit the schools, talk to students, and get a feel for how you would fit on campus and the surrounding community. Its not just money, its like 2-4 years of your life. Make sure you are at the right place.
jeez kissy, we were all having such a great time running down Harvard and arguing about stupid sh*t and then you come in here with your niceness and clarity and well-written retorts and screw it all up...
what about the possibility of getting involved with some of the real estate classes or taking some classes in the business school or joining the real-estate club to network? i would imagine those have some great networking possibilities which is what makes Harvard such a great institution. has anyone had that experience? i would imagine that leaving Gund hall every now and then could lead to some great opportunities.
I know a lot of people who took real estate classes at the HBS and the MIT sloan school of business. Although Harvard makes it harder than other universities to take classes outside of one's own college, I highly encourage taking courses outside of Gund Hall...
I agree with the weather and girls part -especially compared to New York where you'll fall in love 3 or 4 times every block. But as far as alumni at Harvard goes, it's definitely quality over quantity there. Just from the connections I've made with Harvard alumni in the last two months, they have far surpassed any other school I could have gone to, and I'm not starting till this Fall. And of the schools I applied to (includes a couple state schools), the GSD was by far the cheapest after receiving aid.
Don't forget, Florida has hurricanes and terribly HOT weather in the summer and Texas has Texans. Go to UCLA if you want girls and weather.
in regards to the real estate question sean, mit and harvard and a joint program, i only skimmed over it so i cant really tell you that much about it, but check it out.
Yeah - I'd have to say that Harvard may have fewer alumni than a state school, but really ... quality. How many harvard alumni have position of leadership globally (in all fields) vs. florida, michigan and texas. Do you really want to have that debate.
Also, in terms of girls. Havard chicks may not be as hot as florida chicks, but they're smarter, not in sororities, and may have very wealthy daddies. Now that's hot.
Is it worth it to be a GSD graduate?
I'll vouch for WhatToDo in terms of the job market seeming to require an MArch these days. I'm just going to be a senior in my undergraduate program this fall but just in my casual searches for firms that might be hiring, I've found that most places are asking for a professional degree. It's frustrating considering i won't be graduating with a professional degree next spring, but it is more incentive for me to go to grad school regardless of it being an Ivy or not in order to get a job in the area i want to live in.
"education is about life, not the first 3-4 years of your career."
I actually agree with you there, but the original question was if it was worth the money... I'm saying that if you have to borrow the money, the equation is more complicated due to the burden of crushing debt. However, if you are lucky enough to have your parents pay for it, or to get a great scholarship, you probably can't beat an Ivy League education in terms of the doors it will open for you.
Let's face it... You can get a great architectural education without going Ivy. By going to the GSD or a similar school, you ARE paying for the name and the brand, and it will largely help you in cases where people care about these things, i.e. academia or in your first few jobs. After you have experience, most employers care more about where you've WORKED, not where you've gone to school.
I'm gettin my barch, and hopefully and M.Eng after that (if its even possible, or a B.Eng) and I'm callin it at that I don't want to spend 3 more years on top of my first 5 in studio but thats just me.
Just fucking go to GSD if you have the money man, if you don't you'll be paying off loans for a loooong time, and always remeber you will be paid the EXACT same amount of money out of school as the poor schlup who went to State U. CADing away next to you at the office. The wonderful thing about architecture in the U.S. of A. is your boss likely will not even give a shit what school you went to as long as you know how to close a goddamn polyline.
The above statement applies to everyone who keeps soliciting for Ivy grad school info here asking us to make a descision for you, if you have the money just GO, and stop bugging about it! If you don't ask your self is the debt really worth it?
food for thought for the nontrustfund types out there.
Apurimac ... calm down dude ... I'd much rather these folks explore their options here (even if it is, as you suggest, rather annoying) than make a huge mistake that they would regret later ... that's the main purpose of these forums ... to let people explore issues before they screw up.
Where did this $50K a year number come from? Is that including room & board, living expenses, insurence, supplies and books?
I will say this, I know of people who got into both the GSD and some excellent state programs and after receiving aid from all schools, the GSD was cheaper.
The GSD is a really good school, and I don't think there's anything more worth the money than that, I'm crossposting this, an old rant I posted on a previous thread about this topic:
[repost] A (good) graduate education in architecture is the best, most worthwhile education out there for your money.
Where else do you get to make things, draw, play with extremely high technology hardware and software, talk and write and research interesting, relevant ideas from just about every aspect of human culture and history, and compare and discuss it all with a group of some of the smartest people you'll ever meet, in an environment that rewards and praises versatility, hard work, craft and rigor?
Really, can you think of a better way to spend your time and money? If you hit some rock star lottery, too, all the better. But that's just icing, man. When you get out of a good grad school with an MArch you have learned to think, and make things that reflect thought. That's important and worthwhile no matter where you end up working.
I'm getting a little burnt out on the pro-tech-school mentality that's creeping through these forums lately. If you want to go and do that, that's fine, go for it, but if you want to challenge yourself and come out of school with some ability to apply critical thought, then don't cheat yourself.
I'll say it again: grad school for architecture, when done right, is the best education out there. Period. [/repost]
... and @ vado, and anybody else that wants to perpetuate tired ass stereotypes: the majority of kids I know from good schools, Ivy and otherwise, aren't 'trustfunders', they're from all kinds of diverse backgrounds, if there're any defining characteristics, it's their intelligence and openmindedness, qualities maybe some of you could learn from.
(disclaimer, not all Ivies are that great, not all great schools are Ivy, but the GSD is both, and no, I didn't go there)
there are three reasons to go to one of the top schools:
a.) as 765 said, for the experience of going to the school itself.
b.) you hope to go into academia. will look good on a resume.
c.) you hope to get an internship with a starchitect. DISCLAIMER: this type of internship will last one to two years tops. after which time, you will have to get a real job that pays a salary to pay off student loans where they will likely not care much where you went to school.
btw none of these options will help you start your own practice if that is what you are interested in.
Do people go to school to learn how to think?
To learn new things & ideas - to learn an approach to looking at things and approaching problems - whole 3rd paragraph up there - processes - how to benefit from (and tolerate) criticism - lovely to learn all that.
But how to think?
That's alarming!
when did i perpetuate that? people should do whatever the hell they want.
@ namby - no, I read that again and it wasn't clear - I mean a method, just like you said, an approach, not like brainwashing, actually just the opposite!
@ vado - I just get tired of all the trustfund references that come up whenever this topic comes through, that doesn't jibe with my, or my friends experiences, and besides, the trustfunders that I do know are really nice people, too! :]
and for the nontrustfunders, the loans aren't that bad, check other topics for the breakdown.
just for the record this blog was not started to have another pro ivy vs. anti ivy league debate, it was just merely a question as to what GSD graduates are doing now and if they thought their experience at harvard was worth it or not. It is obvious that ivy leagues do make a difference, to some extent, but I was simply trying to find out what the Harvard Graduate student is doing now post graduate studies. not to argue between what is better, because that is a never - ending story. but thanks to those with the positive advice & reasoning, it was great feedback for the most part.
If it helps, I've seen more GSD grads at the top of developer firms.
That's where I've seen 'em.
'Course, maybe it was theit MBA that got them to the top.
Personally, I considered Ivy, as did many of the undergrad classmates, but in the end we all thought we'd get a better education elsewhere. Money is always an issue, but at that point (when I was younger, naive and blinded by passion for design) I would have sucked up the debt (God knows I owe enough, what's another 30k+?)
Good thing I am almost to my dream job ;-)
if you cant decide for yourself if GSD is good or bad, should you really be going there anyways?
just say you went to GSD... less debt and who's really gonna check up on that?
how many architecture offices have you been in where the employees have their degrees mounted in frames on the wall above their desks?
as an aside, when I was in school the two professors who were doing the most critical work didnt not have graduate level degrees. This became an issue in the academic world because the university wanted to claim that their professors had all recieved an advanced level education...the architecture magazines, awards, and clients (as well as the students) could care less about these two professor's schooling
my alma mater requires all teachers to have masters...even adjunct.
WhatToDo
I believe that my school was going to somehow give the professors a masters so that they could say that they had a masters...its all bullshit, anyways
The architecture magazines, awards, and clients (as well as the students) could care less or could NOT care less?
i think mdler is just bitter because you wanted to go to an ivy league but didnt make it -- all you have said is negative comments regarding this blog when this blog has nothing to do with how bad an ivy league school is. i suggest you go back to school and learn what is the difference between constructive advice and ignorant judgement
i only applied to one school and got in...not bitter about not going to an ivy
I also ended up having the opportunitiy to work for exactly who I wanted to while in school...have very little student loan debt out of school...got a great job (was never asked about my schooling in the interview)
I also went to a great school which is looked down upon (on this website) because it is a state school and not an Ivy
from what i've read on these boards, it seems like the only schools that get "looked down upon" are the ivies. i read more about harvard/yale/penn sucking than i do about the pros of other programs.
from my experience, people who dont go to an ivy league school talk more about the "Ivy Leauge" than people who go there.
i believe the yale blows thread was started by someone from harvard.
bravo xacto! I don't rag on cincy or UCLA because I'm not going there. Though I got in, I found something that is better for ME in another school. No one seems to bitch at people for going to SCI_Arc even though quite often, if you're not offered aid, it costs more than an Ivy w/ aid. UT Austin cost more for me than Penn...
why such hatred?
vado blows
xacto- yeah, I think that the scale of suckage is related to cost of attendance.
Dum spiramus tuebimur
tumbleweed, i agree with that too. i never really thought threads like this were about figuring out what school to go to - its more of a "look at me" thing. and i can understand why that pisses people off.
if people want to ask specific questions about a specific program i think these threads would get a lot less negative attention. but asking, whats better, penn, harvard, columbia, or yale is like asking whats better, apples, oranges, cherries, or watermellon. obviously the answer is cherry.
wha? watermelon of course.
watermelon spiked with votka!
i second for watermelon. but seedless. don't want to accidentally swallow a seed and have watermelon vines messin up my insides.
oops. third, not second.
As a graduate of GSD I asked myself this question alot before I decided to go. Of course going in I debated whether or not I wanted to put myself into more debt (I didn't pay anywhere near the full ticket price thank goodness but it still was a lot of money) I already had a 5 year degree from a pretty good school so going to graduate school was 'optional' anyway. In the end i decided to just go. While I don't think the degree translates into big bucks or automatic employment greatness, I don't regret my decision. I loved living in Cambridge and taking advantage of all that the Boston area had to offer. I met a lot of interesting people at harvard and MIT. The professors and lectures were interesting, and I got to travel to places that I never would have had the opportunity to visit otherwise.
I'll admit, a lot of my classmates were (are) assholes, but many of them were also very kind and talented and I still speak with them regularly.
My advise is to go to the school that you want go to. We can't justify or validate your reasons. If you are spending money-any sort of money-I think it is worth it to suck it up and go to the school of your choosing. I wouldn't go to a cheaper school you really don't want to be at just to save some money. Visit the schools, talk to students, and get a feel for how you would fit on campus and the surrounding community. Its not just money, its like 2-4 years of your life. Make sure you are at the right place.
jeez kissy, we were all having such a great time running down Harvard and arguing about stupid sh*t and then you come in here with your niceness and clarity and well-written retorts and screw it all up...
(thanks)
t...
It's ironic that the most eloquent post on the "i hate the GSD" thread is a graduate of the GSD.
very well said kissy_face....
ok, your name just ruined my point ;)
what about the possibility of getting involved with some of the real estate classes or taking some classes in the business school or joining the real-estate club to network? i would imagine those have some great networking possibilities which is what makes Harvard such a great institution. has anyone had that experience? i would imagine that leaving Gund hall every now and then could lead to some great opportunities.
im an optimist!
[img]http://www.magician-thomas-anthony.co.uk/photos/home/rings.jpg[/url]
I know a lot of people who took real estate classes at the HBS and the MIT sloan school of business. Although Harvard makes it harder than other universities to take classes outside of one's own college, I highly encourage taking courses outside of Gund Hall...
I agree with the weather and girls part -especially compared to New York where you'll fall in love 3 or 4 times every block. But as far as alumni at Harvard goes, it's definitely quality over quantity there. Just from the connections I've made with Harvard alumni in the last two months, they have far surpassed any other school I could have gone to, and I'm not starting till this Fall. And of the schools I applied to (includes a couple state schools), the GSD was by far the cheapest after receiving aid.
Don't forget, Florida has hurricanes and terribly HOT weather in the summer and Texas has Texans. Go to UCLA if you want girls and weather.
5. red sox fans
in regards to the real estate question sean, mit and harvard and a joint program, i only skimmed over it so i cant really tell you that much about it, but check it out.
read the part about electives, im not sure if this applies for everybody at these schools or just real estate.
since when did the number of architecture school alumni lead to anything?
though the shear amount/weight of general Harvard alumni might lead to who nows how many possibilities...
Yeah - I'd have to say that Harvard may have fewer alumni than a state school, but really ... quality. How many harvard alumni have position of leadership globally (in all fields) vs. florida, michigan and texas. Do you really want to have that debate.
Also, in terms of girls. Havard chicks may not be as hot as florida chicks, but they're smarter, not in sororities, and may have very wealthy daddies. Now that's hot.
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