Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions, but I know someone who did this internship and it was definitely unpaid. Nothing like working full time in Manhattan for nothing.....
I once worked at an office where there were 4 of us unpaid interns - the principal told us he would be hiring only one of us - that was the carrot - at another place, I would be paid once the client got paid - they never did - The person I worked for is still bugging about working for free as an "investment"
Free internships are legal provided you're doing them in exchange for coursework. Ideally though, the practice isn't going away anytime soon. What we should do, though, is lobby the government to make "internship development" a tax-free practice.
If we ignore the tax cost, it is far cheaper to pay the housing and food costs of an intern, even in New York, than it is to pay a minimum "living wage." In this situation, an intern's general health and well-being isn't at risk and a business gets a tax break on a heavily discounted employee.
Yet another one, and this one I find particularly appalling. They are specifically seeking a "Revit Master" with at least 1-2 years exp; the first line of the ad clearly states that this is unpaid. It also states near the bottom that the require someone with a completed degree in architecture. If we think about this logically, it seems that they are looking for someone who is no longer in school and is able to put together a model/CD set. I would absolutely consider the employer to be benefiting from this significantly. Thoughts? This is the 3rd unpaid internship ad I've seen from this firm.
WOW. I would think Archinect would take down these ridiculous ads and not give in to scumbags like these.
Funny that in the end of the day the poor little dipshit that actually gets hoodwinked into taking this job is esentially setting up REVIT models and doing renderings for rich clients who want multi-million dollar mansions.
I love to work for free. I live under the bridge and hunt squirils for food so money is no object to me. As long as you don't mind the smell of urine, I'm your guy! I have attached a pic so that you can easily recognise me when I come in for my interview. I greatly appreciate this chance to be your loyal intern.
This internship has compensation based on skill level of applicant. Benefits including the opportunity to work with great architects, to create homes that improve the quality of living for people and the planet, and to surf during lunch (our office is blocks from the ocean).
pretty loose use of the term "compensation," but that's fine. we'll say that being in the presence of Steve Glenn is the same as money. of course if you can't afford a peanut butter and jelly sandwich that's fine, because you can surf instead of eating during lunch. it would appear the "skill level" of being proficient in revit with a couple years experience doesn't warrant enough money to pay for a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. either he's narcissistic to the point he should be involuntarily committed into a mental health program, or he's too dumb to post a help wanted ad.
i looked through their website and it looks like ray kappe and Kiernan Timberlake don't actually work there. they just threw up a couple resume's of architects they had worked with previously. not only is steve glenn an idiot, he appears to be a con-man.
from the 'about' section:
As a kid, I had books on Frank Lloyd Wright and built cities out of Legos. I wanted to be an architect. Sadly, I discovered in college that I had neither the talent nor temperament to pursue this demanding career.
dumbass learned that architecture is more than just playing with legos and staring at picture books. if someone is going to work as an intern architect for free, i really hope it isn't someone as useless as this guy. if anyone here lives in the neighborhood and sees this guy at the grocery store or whatever, kick him in the nuts once for me.
Now, this is exactly what the old farts at the AIA should be looking at, and preventing this kind of malpractice in the profession. Oh wait, what do they care, seeing their friends are probably the ones propogating this bullshit.
I just noticed that too. They took that "unpaid internship" bullshit off.
I don't know who in their right mind (who has all that knowledge and experience) would want to work for shitty people at some shitty firm.
They should consider revising this garbage too:
"Benefits including the opportunity to work with great architects, to create homes that improve the quality of living for people and the planet, and to surf during lunch (our office is blocks from the ocean)."
Most human being I know have bigger 'benefits' to seek (health, dental, vision, life-insurance, long-term disability, etc) and could give a tuppeny-fuck less about surfing and working with such clowns who consider themselves "great" architects.
Anyone with this experience and skill-set should expect to be well-paid and compensated for benefits. This is an absolute - sorry but fact is fact. And if any of you clowns working at this shitty firm are reading this - you need a surf-board up your ass - you are a part of the problem.
Good written and verbal communication skills.
• Ability to complete projects with minimal supervision, self-directed, resourceful, and goal oriented.
• An eye for detail and a desire to perform at a high level.
• A sense of humor.
• Proficiency with Revit, Acad and Sketchup
• Experience with Adobe Illustrator, Adobe Photoshop.
• Experience with 3D Studio, VRay and any other rendering programs a plus.
• Experience and comfort level with Microsoft Excel.
They may have removed the wording from their ad on Archinect, but the posting on their own website still specifies this as an unpaid internship. If you look at the other internship postings on there (about 6?) they only offer unpaid internships in their office...
JPR gave the first architecture lecture I ever saw, and it still may have been the best. It was at the time he was finishing up the Seattle library, and the theme was taking back control and responsibility as an architect. Too see one of the coolest (especially to a first year) buildings in the context of actually making money was great.
As an update to the Living Homes, I sent them an email (A NICE email) and I got a response from their CEO.
He flatly-denied having an ad for a unpaid position and linked me to his edited archinect ad and then a link to the web ad that BLATANTLY said this is an "Unpaid Position"
I corrected him a few times. Apparently many people confronted them about this - great job to all who participated! He has now changed the wording on both archinect and his website.
The first time I saw them post an unpaid internship (in late 2011) I emailed him and pointed out that by labour laws, this was illegal as he was clearly exploiting it. He replied that because these were for credit through school they were legal and that he currently had two masters students in his office at that moment working for school credit.
I followed up by asking how he was hiring current students to gain school credit when all of his ads explicitly state that they want someone with a degree (Masters or Bachelors) to take the internship. I think its safe to assume that if someone has also graduated and had their degree conferred on them, they wouldn't be looking for school credit.
I received no reply to this... but I'm not really surprised.
Good job those of you who contacted the firm! I didn't this time because I was reading this thread at work and can't send emails from my job that are meant to be from me personally. When I was self-employed, I would send those kinds of emails with a link to the Department of Labor rules on what qualifies for an unpaid internship whenever an unpaid ad would pop up here.
I honestly think a polite, firm email to these people telling them "What you're proposing is illegal." from many, many of us whenever one of these ads goes up, not only on Archinect but anywhere, would be effective.
This thread is interesting and I think the changes, small but still important, are exciting. Let’s keep at it I think this is part ignorance needing education on the issue and part willful exploitation. How things split up I have no idea but educating and shaming people on this issue seems to be making a change.
This is as close to unionization the architecture profession has gotten maybe the eradication of exploitive internships can be the first step in that process.
One thing the AIAS has long had a boycott on contracting speakers from firms with unpaid internships, we should all ask our alma matters to do the same, so many of the starchatects make big bucks speaking at colleges and universities and they don’t always pay their interns. The speaker series that I helped found at Southern Illinois University Carbondale has such a clause in their contracts, we should lobby other schools to do the same.
@ Donna Sink - my email was very polite - very far from the kind bluster I tend to blow off on archinect (pertaining to subjects like these which just make my blood boil). lol
The reason this is such a sensitive subject for many of us is that we are architects in which we are inherently hard workers. We put a lot of time working early mornings to late nights in our studios which easily carries over to long hours working at firms. We have an extensive skill-set and knowlege which many people only wish they had and when i look at other professions, it baffles me how little some people work and what limited skill-sets people have but get paid ridiculous amounts of money. It makes people crazy.
Unpaid Internship Posting, stillll?
http://archinect.com/jobs/entry/59223300/architecture-intern
Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions, but I know someone who did this internship and it was definitely unpaid. Nothing like working full time in Manhattan for nothing.....
At least they don't unabashedly promote it like this studio:
REQUIREMENTS
• Interest and enthusiasm for working for FREE.
....
To be fair, FREE is the name of the firm. A friend of mine works in the New York office.
Lets post the names and create a shame list.
Let us name names because this is illegal, shameful and has to be stopped!
Ronald Vari, Vari Architects LaGrange IL
http://variarchitects.com/
He wanted a 16 week internship for free before considering hiring. This was posted on craigslist.
NCARB are you listening because he explicitly offered to sign off on IDP experience even thought this is an unpaid internship.
I once worked at an office where there were 4 of us unpaid interns - the principal told us he would be hiring only one of us - that was the carrot - at another place, I would be paid once the client got paid - they never did - The person I worked for is still bugging about working for free as an "investment"
names?
these dirt bags should be shut down
Free internships are legal provided you're doing them in exchange for coursework. Ideally though, the practice isn't going away anytime soon. What we should do, though, is lobby the government to make "internship development" a tax-free practice.
If we ignore the tax cost, it is far cheaper to pay the housing and food costs of an intern, even in New York, than it is to pay a minimum "living wage." In this situation, an intern's general health and well-being isn't at risk and a business gets a tax break on a heavily discounted employee.
http://archinect.com/jobs/entry/67927005/intern-architect-revit-master
Yet another one, and this one I find particularly appalling. They are specifically seeking a "Revit Master" with at least 1-2 years exp; the first line of the ad clearly states that this is unpaid. It also states near the bottom that the require someone with a completed degree in architecture. If we think about this logically, it seems that they are looking for someone who is no longer in school and is able to put together a model/CD set. I would absolutely consider the employer to be benefiting from this significantly. Thoughts? This is the 3rd unpaid internship ad I've seen from this firm.
I just took care of it, maybe they'll call me back. Thanks for the heads up.
Why stop at this company? C6, Ray Kappe and Kiernan Timberlake bear some responsibility here as well.
what a bunch of jerks. I sent them an email telling them what I thought.
"REQUIREMENTS
• Interest and enthusiasm for working for FREE."
Requirements from me:
- Interest and enthusiasm in sucking my balls.
WOW. I would think Archinect would take down these ridiculous ads and not give in to scumbags like these.
Funny that in the end of the day the poor little dipshit that actually gets hoodwinked into taking this job is esentially setting up REVIT models and doing renderings for rich clients who want multi-million dollar mansions.
Seems they covered the above concerns in the requirements section of the posting:
A sense of humor
To Whom It May Concern,
I love to work for free. I live under the bridge and hunt squirils for food so money is no object to me. As long as you don't mind the smell of urine, I'm your guy! I have attached a pic so that you can easily recognise me when I come in for my interview. I greatly appreciate this chance to be your loyal intern.
Hope to here from you soon,
lol @ the above
I would think Archinect would take down these ridiculous ads and not give in to scumbags like these.
Archinect charges a fee for advertisers. They could apparently care less what is being advertised.
at the bottom:
This internship has compensation based on skill level of applicant. Benefits including the opportunity to work with great architects, to create homes that improve the quality of living for people and the planet, and to surf during lunch (our office is blocks from the ocean).
pretty loose use of the term "compensation," but that's fine. we'll say that being in the presence of Steve Glenn is the same as money. of course if you can't afford a peanut butter and jelly sandwich that's fine, because you can surf instead of eating during lunch. it would appear the "skill level" of being proficient in revit with a couple years experience doesn't warrant enough money to pay for a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. either he's narcissistic to the point he should be involuntarily committed into a mental health program, or he's too dumb to post a help wanted ad.
i looked through their website and it looks like ray kappe and Kiernan Timberlake don't actually work there. they just threw up a couple resume's of architects they had worked with previously. not only is steve glenn an idiot, he appears to be a con-man.
from the 'about' section:
As a kid, I had books on Frank Lloyd Wright and built cities out of Legos. I wanted to be an architect. Sadly, I discovered in college that I had neither the talent nor temperament to pursue this demanding career.
dumbass learned that architecture is more than just playing with legos and staring at picture books. if someone is going to work as an intern architect for free, i really hope it isn't someone as useless as this guy. if anyone here lives in the neighborhood and sees this guy at the grocery store or whatever, kick him in the nuts once for me.
Now, this is exactly what the old farts at the AIA should be looking at, and preventing this kind of malpractice in the profession. Oh wait, what do they care, seeing their friends are probably the ones propogating this bullshit.
wtf! unpaid internship in America? this should be unheard of
The AIA is too busy playing clubhouse.
SMH
Funny, I left a voice message at 9:44 am est and have yet to have anyone call me back. It's a shame, I would've loved to talk with them....
Curtm and krm, they changed their post, no doubt based on my voicemail and potential feedback from the Big Green Head.
I just noticed that too. They took that "unpaid internship" bullshit off.
I don't know who in their right mind (who has all that knowledge and experience) would want to work for shitty people at some shitty firm.
They should consider revising this garbage too:
"Benefits including the opportunity to work with great architects, to create homes that improve the quality of living for people and the planet, and to surf during lunch (our office is blocks from the ocean)."
Most human being I know have bigger 'benefits' to seek (health, dental, vision, life-insurance, long-term disability, etc) and could give a tuppeny-fuck less about surfing and working with such clowns who consider themselves "great" architects.
Anyone with this experience and skill-set should expect to be well-paid and compensated for benefits. This is an absolute - sorry but fact is fact. And if any of you clowns working at this shitty firm are reading this - you need a surf-board up your ass - you are a part of the problem.
Good written and verbal communication skills.
• Ability to complete projects with minimal supervision, self-directed, resourceful, and goal oriented.
• An eye for detail and a desire to perform at a high level.
• A sense of humor.
• Proficiency with Revit, Acad and Sketchup
• Experience with Adobe Illustrator, Adobe Photoshop.
• Experience with 3D Studio, VRay and any other rendering programs a plus.
• Experience and comfort level with Microsoft Excel.
surf's up, bitches!
I love me some Vado!
agreed. we need t-shirts.
http://www.livinghomes.net/viewJob.html?id=24
They may have removed the wording from their ad on Archinect, but the posting on their own website still specifies this as an unpaid internship. If you look at the other internship postings on there (about 6?) they only offer unpaid internships in their office...
Just wanted to give REX Architects a shout out.
From their website:
"REX does not accept offers for unpaid internships. This practice devalues our profession and provides lawbreakers an unfair market advantage."
Previously they had jokingly stated that they would post anyone who did on a wall of shame. That would be a great idea.
mad props to REX!
I already had massive respect for REX and now I respect them even more.
JPR gave the first architecture lecture I ever saw, and it still may have been the best. It was at the time he was finishing up the Seattle library, and the theme was taking back control and responsibility as an architect. Too see one of the coolest (especially to a first year) buildings in the context of actually making money was great.
As an update to the Living Homes, I sent them an email (A NICE email) and I got a response from their CEO.
He flatly-denied having an ad for a unpaid position and linked me to his edited archinect ad and then a link to the web ad that BLATANTLY said this is an "Unpaid Position"
I corrected him a few times. Apparently many people confronted them about this - great job to all who participated! He has now changed the wording on both archinect and his website.
See, we can stop this nonsense!
Interesting med.
The first time I saw them post an unpaid internship (in late 2011) I emailed him and pointed out that by labour laws, this was illegal as he was clearly exploiting it. He replied that because these were for credit through school they were legal and that he currently had two masters students in his office at that moment working for school credit.
I followed up by asking how he was hiring current students to gain school credit when all of his ads explicitly state that they want someone with a degree (Masters or Bachelors) to take the internship. I think its safe to assume that if someone has also graduated and had their degree conferred on them, they wouldn't be looking for school credit.
I received no reply to this... but I'm not really surprised.
Ben, it is worth noting that when the CEO was responding to me he sounded like complete buffoon.
Free internship? No way, man. If you want to intern with Vado it will cost you.
I found this an interesting read
http://www.dezeen.com/2013/02/21/were-scrapping-unpaid-internships/
Good job those of you who contacted the firm! I didn't this time because I was reading this thread at work and can't send emails from my job that are meant to be from me personally. When I was self-employed, I would send those kinds of emails with a link to the Department of Labor rules on what qualifies for an unpaid internship whenever an unpaid ad would pop up here.
I honestly think a polite, firm email to these people telling them "What you're proposing is illegal." from many, many of us whenever one of these ads goes up, not only on Archinect but anywhere, would be effective.
This thread is interesting and I think the changes, small but still important, are exciting. Let’s keep at it I think this is part ignorance needing education on the issue and part willful exploitation. How things split up I have no idea but educating and shaming people on this issue seems to be making a change.
This is as close to unionization the architecture profession has gotten maybe the eradication of exploitive internships can be the first step in that process.
One thing the AIAS has long had a boycott on contracting speakers from firms with unpaid internships, we should all ask our alma matters to do the same, so many of the starchatects make big bucks speaking at colleges and universities and they don’t always pay their interns. The speaker series that I helped found at Southern Illinois University Carbondale has such a clause in their contracts, we should lobby other schools to do the same.
Over and OUT
Peter N
@ Donna Sink - my email was very polite - very far from the kind bluster I tend to blow off on archinect (pertaining to subjects like these which just make my blood boil). lol
The reason this is such a sensitive subject for many of us is that we are architects in which we are inherently hard workers. We put a lot of time working early mornings to late nights in our studios which easily carries over to long hours working at firms. We have an extensive skill-set and knowlege which many people only wish they had and when i look at other professions, it baffles me how little some people work and what limited skill-sets people have but get paid ridiculous amounts of money. It makes people crazy.
I am amazed at how many programs one must be a master of to design what appear to be prefab shipping containers neatly stacked atop one another.
vado, if it's not a good program with a solid snap function, then the containers wouldn't be stacked very neatly would they?
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