You have been at your new firm 6 weeks. You are given the opportunity to work on a project of approximately 60 apartments with other people from your practice. After 2 weeks, the client ends up wanting no one else but you on the project and the principle agrees. The client is a project manger directly responsible to very moneyed clients developing projects all over the country. He offers you a job basically acting as director of a design unit within his organisation for triple the money.
Do you turn from traditional architecture practice to take this opportunity, or do you remain with the employer who has shown you nothing but respect and belief...
What will your actual duties be? Churning out this same apartment over and over again? And at your current firm. I dont know if you're licensed or planning on it, but professionally you will probably grow more working for an architect in a firm with varied projects. The other place is probably a developer? You may be stuck doing the same thing.
No, the position will be developing design concepts and strategies up to design development phase for residential, commercial and hospitality.
The firm I am working for is renowned for working drawings, rather than design. there is also the possibility in sharing the profits on ideas I bring to the [new] office if they go ahead...
Well go for it then. One final thing... If you're doing IDP, you can only count it if you're working for a registered architect. Again, dont know what your position or goals are.
3 times the money? I am surprised you are asking. Anything with design anywhere near the title, and you make great cash....once in a lifetime opportunity, my friend.
Forget the IDP. I still don't know why people make such a fuss about it. 3 TIMES THE MONEY FOR DESIGN!!
Be careful... the grass is always greener applies here. Anyone trying to steal you away after you've been somewhere for 6 weeks seems a little suspect to me. They don't know any other designers or architects? You might want to believe they're asking you because you are so fantastic, could be, but it could also be that they see you are a young designer and possibly naive that they can take advantage of. If they are really that busy, they'll always need people (although again I ask, why do they need to steal other firms employees?), why not tell them you'll have to wait until the project you are working on is done and then you'd love to work for them. I don't think the opportunity will disappear if they genuinely want you for your design talent, and it will give you time not only to learn more about working drawings, but also to develop a closer relationship with the client and find out more about them.
developers are considered the sith to the archi-jedi knights. (disclaimer: i dont believe in that mostly)
hey diabase
if you absolutely NEED that kind of increase, could your office compensate you more to make up for that gap in increase from the developers? if not- then take the money and run...
Triple the money...........hmmmmmmm......think of it like this, let's say you only work with this new guy for four months and then quit.....well you'll be able to afford to take off the next eight months to find a new job
R. A. beat me to it. After two weeks they want to steal you? What kind character judgement does this firm have? Business relationships are not that different from personal relationships. Ask yourself what happened to the last ex-wife/ex-husband.
I know a guy who crossed to the dark side to work for a GC. Sure he makes more $$$ but does complain about his job, no creative outlet, etc. He also has the joy of working for a company that makes money by slapping up Wal-Marts. His friends & I all feel the grass isn't greener for this guy, yet once you get used to a higer income it's a lot tougher to go backwards. (Also note that he used to be fun when he worked in architecture and now he's about as much fun as doing addendum drawings.)
Just think twice before you make a change because you could get stuck there and it will suck the life out of you.
"see you are a young designer and possibly naive that they can take advantage of."
Ok, so someone tell me how they are going to 'take advantage of you' by offering you 3 times the money!? Jesus!!
One thing that will always confuse me is how architects bitch about not making any money, but then when someone does get offered money, they immediately assume you'll be cleaning sewers or have sold your soul.
Not sure how many people work in other professions, but most do pay you, most give over time (like time and a half), etc., etc.
Take the money. From my personal experiences, it's the powerful developers that actually get 'ideas' built (think good idea = more cash), not the architects.
Prove your business acumen by initiating a fairer deal between you and the developer that also benefits the practice you're working for. If you can negotiate a long term partnership, everyone can benefit and you will be left secure to ride the upward path to riches and glory.
Any good practice will recognise sound business skills in an employee. These people are the ones that make the most contribution to cash flow and therefore sustainable practice.
trace - what i meant by being taken advantage of might be, for example, that they lure you away from your current employer with the promise of higher pay, work you like crazy for a couple months & then let you go... if it's even a couple of months. Or maybe part of the pay is in bonuses that never show up, or they expect you to work 100 hour weeks, or it's only part time. I've heard all kinds of sob stories, it just pays to be cautious.
When someone offers you something that appears to be too good to be true... Something just doesn't add up here, that's all I'm saying. We all know how little architects are paid. If the developer has done a lot of projects and is willing to offer what sounds like 90 or 100 grand a year, wouldn't they easily find someone more experienced (sorry diabase i am making an asumption here, if the scenario is even real) that they had worked with before?
The client works with a number of architecture firms, but is now seeking to consolidate its contacts and appoint one architecture firm to do all of its work. Where I come in is that my practice is very good at working drawings and documentation, but I am the only one here with what you might call "design sensibilities" with a respected qualification and track record - even though I am relatively young
The intention is for me to head up a unit developing concepts up to DD stage, and then get this firm to do the working drawings. This way, the client can control the initial quality of the designs required [thankfully, he is not too-large scale and is interested in differentiating the end product in terms of a design-edge], and then also be assured that the working drawings are being done by the best people. The projects will run across multi-residential, commercial and hospitality. There is the opportunity (which I will formalise) to research and table my own concepts [eg. a proposal for a boutique hotel] and then "sell" these to get built.
I personally, am interested in establishing a more development oriented practice in the manner of r.corporation [www.rcorporation.com.au]. I guess this aspect is akin to a kind of web start-up, but the product is design-oriented buildings and programs...
Anyway thats the hope. I am still debating. The company is a project management enterprise not a construction-based development firm. The director is a bit of a maverick. But hey, theres a company car, more money, some autonomy and some opportunity.
Does sound interesting, but I would still make it very clear what your experience and capabilities are... I would also think about how you are going to discuss this with your current firm. Basically, you would be telling them that the guy wants to hire you and pay you personally more money, in order to save himself having to pay your firm or any number of other firms a much larger chunk of money for the design phase. At least that what seems to be happenning. Imagine that on a large project the A&E fees might equal 10%. The portion of those fees up to DD might be 4%. On a ten million dollar project that would be 400,000. So, if he pays you say 100,000 a year and you work on more than one project at a time, maybe with some other people drafting, he's saving a bundle. What he is losing is the experience that your firm (and others) bring to the schematic/DD phase, which may not be interesting in terms of design but is probably pretty significant on the cost analysis/building systems side. It could be a great opportunity for you, it could also be a disaster... maybe a big financial gain but a headache in terms of your responsibilities and resume.
I personally would love to learn more about the development side of large projects, but I'm also extremely wary of developers who do business this way. That's why so many projects turn out to be crap - they hire inexperienced people that they can pay less and control to do work that should be done by professionals (and their design talent becomes also incidental at that point). Also, will your current firm want to work with you and respect your design? I still maintain that the fact the developer wants to hire you after you've been there 6 weeks is strange... If you do go for it, make sure all your responsibilities and the setup is VERY clear before you start. What will you be expected to produce, who will be helping you, what are the timelines, etc...
I should also add we're currently working with a firm doing some CAD work on a portion of the design for a large hotel project (sorry to be so cryptic but I probably shouldn't be talking about it). The project is one of many hotels owned by the same developer, and it's a DISASTER. It's unbelievable to all of us that these guys can even keep things going. They are very difficult to work with, they jerk the architects around like crazy, the deadlines are impossible, they are constantly changing their minds about budgets, etc., the contracts are indecipherable... just a few examples why I would be extremely afraid to be put in charge of design for a developer, especially with a limited amount of experience and at a young age where you will probably not be able to stand up to being bullied and/or have the experience to know what is abnormal about the process.
diabase, do you consider the the stuff this company doing now any good? beyond the car, title and cash....
there are hundreds of firms like the one you are describing[and i will say most developer groups are such] and at the end of the day, its only the bottom line there interested in. if i drive from my house to downtown, 99% of the buildings i pass are built by firms doing the same thing your decribing and all are very mediocre.
if they worked with a architectural practice they enjoyed and admired there work, they wouldnt just farm out the cds, and perhaps as they are presently working this way, they are not happy with even spending the most basic money on design. they just dont get it - you can only squeeze so much blood out of anyone....they dont pay for design and clearly as they dont value it today, you wont change them.
while i am not against design build, i am strongly against most developers who represent they are doing it in the best interest of the money. it is only build, no design.
i also question the fellow trying to steal someone out of a firm who they have only met some 6 weeks ago. ethics. says alot about them.
if you believe what you see coming out of there is good and you can make it a bit better, go for it. these guys always think they are better designers that architects with strong ideas. in shitcago, its really only david hoovey who has achieved great design / build. he is an architect first. of the hundreds of other projects built daily, i can really say none impress me; as lasting, built well, great design or anything.
i have thought long about starting a design build firm, but design is the lead and build is to speak of craft and quality. not the usual model.
Just 6 weeks? Simple - we really hit it off. I respect him, he [seems] to respect me, After all, our success is largely deemed by:
1. Our ability to get along with and communicate with others, and
2. The degree to which we can choose who those 'others' are...
r.a and myself are thinking alike, anyways...you didnt just want us to say 'just do it' did ya?? thats no fun and the thread dies.....and by the way...what is on pg. 197?
R.A and TED - I am wary, hence this thread. I am trying to be less naive and more discerning, however, student loan repayments beckon and I will more or less have to take this job for the money...
Go for it. I am dying for an opportunity like that. I will take it in a heart beat. Working in an architecture firm is overrated. You get to make more important decisions in the "real" world. You will learn so much more on how the building is put together, as well as the important aspect of the financial side.
go for it then...with full archinect blessings!!!......give it a real go and evaluate it every 4 months or so....dont get used to the money, really use it to pay off the loan!! [i really think these stupid loans are stop the most talented architects from doing what they want.....]you will definitely learn. the bad side is that too many cross the boundary, get a big car, big mortgage, a couple of kids then say....how can i get out?
why dont you take the extra 2x of your money and put it in the bank. Live off of the remainder and keep in touch with your boss right now. Keep informed with current architecture and maybe take some creative outlet night classes offered at an art college. Then after awhile open your own firm or go back to your old job.
so if you hit it off so well will he be pissed if you said no? Why not get registered ( then you will never question not having done it or gone through it. Work with the guy through your firm and milk the relationship. If he wants to work with you he'll want to work with you on the next project as well.
so what's three times the money 3x 30k or is it 3x 90k. it does make a difference. If he likes to work with you that much don't flatter yourself and hold out for the second offer. Maybe its 5x your current salary. There are guys like you at every office. I know many developers who have made similar offers to me and lots of my friends. Looks pretty good now but how does it look 20 yrs from now.
But then again maybe you can be like Brad Pitt and come back to Architecture when your older and buy your friendship with Frank or Rem.
'He offers you a job basically acting as director of a design unit within his organisation for triple the money.'
you've answered your own question... cross and don't look back, son.
I'd say go for it, but I'd do a little research around his financial state, given the shape of the markets today. Does he have land assembled for a pipeline of projects? Where does he get his financing from? You don't want to quit your good design job and get immediately laid off.
hehe. That's hilarious... we've been debating a 3 year old thread. Diabase, do tell us about your experience on the "dark side" though, assuming you took the job.
Feb 23, 10 3:11 pm ·
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Crossing to the Dark Side...
Scenario:
You have been at your new firm 6 weeks. You are given the opportunity to work on a project of approximately 60 apartments with other people from your practice. After 2 weeks, the client ends up wanting no one else but you on the project and the principle agrees. The client is a project manger directly responsible to very moneyed clients developing projects all over the country. He offers you a job basically acting as director of a design unit within his organisation for triple the money.
Do you turn from traditional architecture practice to take this opportunity, or do you remain with the employer who has shown you nothing but respect and belief...
Turn to page 197, or comment.
Question...
What will your actual duties be? Churning out this same apartment over and over again? And at your current firm. I dont know if you're licensed or planning on it, but professionally you will probably grow more working for an architect in a firm with varied projects. The other place is probably a developer? You may be stuck doing the same thing.
But it is triple the money.
No, the position will be developing design concepts and strategies up to design development phase for residential, commercial and hospitality.
The firm I am working for is renowned for working drawings, rather than design. there is also the possibility in sharing the profits on ideas I bring to the [new] office if they go ahead...
Well go for it then. One final thing... If you're doing IDP, you can only count it if you're working for a registered architect. Again, dont know what your position or goals are.
3 times the money? I am surprised you are asking. Anything with design anywhere near the title, and you make great cash....once in a lifetime opportunity, my friend.
Forget the IDP. I still don't know why people make such a fuss about it. 3 TIMES THE MONEY FOR DESIGN!!
why are the people offering you more money refered to as "the dark side?" is it just because they are developers?
i think they probably have red light sabers
Luke, I am your father...
Be careful... the grass is always greener applies here. Anyone trying to steal you away after you've been somewhere for 6 weeks seems a little suspect to me. They don't know any other designers or architects? You might want to believe they're asking you because you are so fantastic, could be, but it could also be that they see you are a young designer and possibly naive that they can take advantage of. If they are really that busy, they'll always need people (although again I ask, why do they need to steal other firms employees?), why not tell them you'll have to wait until the project you are working on is done and then you'd love to work for them. I don't think the opportunity will disappear if they genuinely want you for your design talent, and it will give you time not only to learn more about working drawings, but also to develop a closer relationship with the client and find out more about them.
yes dan
developers are considered the sith to the archi-jedi knights. (disclaimer: i dont believe in that mostly)
hey diabase
if you absolutely NEED that kind of increase, could your office compensate you more to make up for that gap in increase from the developers? if not- then take the money and run...
Triple the money...........hmmmmmmm......think of it like this, let's say you only work with this new guy for four months and then quit.....well you'll be able to afford to take off the next eight months to find a new job
R. A. beat me to it. After two weeks they want to steal you? What kind character judgement does this firm have? Business relationships are not that different from personal relationships. Ask yourself what happened to the last ex-wife/ex-husband.
I know a guy who crossed to the dark side to work for a GC. Sure he makes more $$$ but does complain about his job, no creative outlet, etc. He also has the joy of working for a company that makes money by slapping up Wal-Marts. His friends & I all feel the grass isn't greener for this guy, yet once you get used to a higer income it's a lot tougher to go backwards. (Also note that he used to be fun when he worked in architecture and now he's about as much fun as doing addendum drawings.)
Just think twice before you make a change because you could get stuck there and it will suck the life out of you.
"see you are a young designer and possibly naive that they can take advantage of."
Ok, so someone tell me how they are going to 'take advantage of you' by offering you 3 times the money!? Jesus!!
One thing that will always confuse me is how architects bitch about not making any money, but then when someone does get offered money, they immediately assume you'll be cleaning sewers or have sold your soul.
Not sure how many people work in other professions, but most do pay you, most give over time (like time and a half), etc., etc.
Take the money. From my personal experiences, it's the powerful developers that actually get 'ideas' built (think good idea = more cash), not the architects.
Trace - we just all want our cake and be able to eat it too.
Yeah, I want an offer for 3x my salary but I want to remain an architect at the same time.
Prove your business acumen by initiating a fairer deal between you and the developer that also benefits the practice you're working for. If you can negotiate a long term partnership, everyone can benefit and you will be left secure to ride the upward path to riches and glory.
Any good practice will recognise sound business skills in an employee. These people are the ones that make the most contribution to cash flow and therefore sustainable practice.
I would polish turds all day for 3x my salary.
ag. $12 / hour?
I could finally afford that '92 IROC-Z I've had my eye on.
trace - what i meant by being taken advantage of might be, for example, that they lure you away from your current employer with the promise of higher pay, work you like crazy for a couple months & then let you go... if it's even a couple of months. Or maybe part of the pay is in bonuses that never show up, or they expect you to work 100 hour weeks, or it's only part time. I've heard all kinds of sob stories, it just pays to be cautious.
When someone offers you something that appears to be too good to be true... Something just doesn't add up here, that's all I'm saying. We all know how little architects are paid. If the developer has done a lot of projects and is willing to offer what sounds like 90 or 100 grand a year, wouldn't they easily find someone more experienced (sorry diabase i am making an asumption here, if the scenario is even real) that they had worked with before?
Thanks for the feedback.
The client works with a number of architecture firms, but is now seeking to consolidate its contacts and appoint one architecture firm to do all of its work. Where I come in is that my practice is very good at working drawings and documentation, but I am the only one here with what you might call "design sensibilities" with a respected qualification and track record - even though I am relatively young
The intention is for me to head up a unit developing concepts up to DD stage, and then get this firm to do the working drawings. This way, the client can control the initial quality of the designs required [thankfully, he is not too-large scale and is interested in differentiating the end product in terms of a design-edge], and then also be assured that the working drawings are being done by the best people. The projects will run across multi-residential, commercial and hospitality. There is the opportunity (which I will formalise) to research and table my own concepts [eg. a proposal for a boutique hotel] and then "sell" these to get built.
I personally, am interested in establishing a more development oriented practice in the manner of r.corporation [www.rcorporation.com.au]. I guess this aspect is akin to a kind of web start-up, but the product is design-oriented buildings and programs...
Anyway thats the hope. I am still debating. The company is a project management enterprise not a construction-based development firm. The director is a bit of a maverick. But hey, theres a company car, more money, some autonomy and some opportunity.
Sounds like a gold mine to me.
Does sound interesting, but I would still make it very clear what your experience and capabilities are... I would also think about how you are going to discuss this with your current firm. Basically, you would be telling them that the guy wants to hire you and pay you personally more money, in order to save himself having to pay your firm or any number of other firms a much larger chunk of money for the design phase. At least that what seems to be happenning. Imagine that on a large project the A&E fees might equal 10%. The portion of those fees up to DD might be 4%. On a ten million dollar project that would be 400,000. So, if he pays you say 100,000 a year and you work on more than one project at a time, maybe with some other people drafting, he's saving a bundle. What he is losing is the experience that your firm (and others) bring to the schematic/DD phase, which may not be interesting in terms of design but is probably pretty significant on the cost analysis/building systems side. It could be a great opportunity for you, it could also be a disaster... maybe a big financial gain but a headache in terms of your responsibilities and resume.
I personally would love to learn more about the development side of large projects, but I'm also extremely wary of developers who do business this way. That's why so many projects turn out to be crap - they hire inexperienced people that they can pay less and control to do work that should be done by professionals (and their design talent becomes also incidental at that point). Also, will your current firm want to work with you and respect your design? I still maintain that the fact the developer wants to hire you after you've been there 6 weeks is strange... If you do go for it, make sure all your responsibilities and the setup is VERY clear before you start. What will you be expected to produce, who will be helping you, what are the timelines, etc...
I should also add we're currently working with a firm doing some CAD work on a portion of the design for a large hotel project (sorry to be so cryptic but I probably shouldn't be talking about it). The project is one of many hotels owned by the same developer, and it's a DISASTER. It's unbelievable to all of us that these guys can even keep things going. They are very difficult to work with, they jerk the architects around like crazy, the deadlines are impossible, they are constantly changing their minds about budgets, etc., the contracts are indecipherable... just a few examples why I would be extremely afraid to be put in charge of design for a developer, especially with a limited amount of experience and at a young age where you will probably not be able to stand up to being bullied and/or have the experience to know what is abnormal about the process.
diabase, do you consider the the stuff this company doing now any good? beyond the car, title and cash....
there are hundreds of firms like the one you are describing[and i will say most developer groups are such] and at the end of the day, its only the bottom line there interested in. if i drive from my house to downtown, 99% of the buildings i pass are built by firms doing the same thing your decribing and all are very mediocre.
if they worked with a architectural practice they enjoyed and admired there work, they wouldnt just farm out the cds, and perhaps as they are presently working this way, they are not happy with even spending the most basic money on design. they just dont get it - you can only squeeze so much blood out of anyone....they dont pay for design and clearly as they dont value it today, you wont change them.
while i am not against design build, i am strongly against most developers who represent they are doing it in the best interest of the money. it is only build, no design.
i also question the fellow trying to steal someone out of a firm who they have only met some 6 weeks ago. ethics. says alot about them.
if you believe what you see coming out of there is good and you can make it a bit better, go for it. these guys always think they are better designers that architects with strong ideas. in shitcago, its really only david hoovey who has achieved great design / build. he is an architect first. of the hundreds of other projects built daily, i can really say none impress me; as lasting, built well, great design or anything.
i have thought long about starting a design build firm, but design is the lead and build is to speak of craft and quality. not the usual model.
patience, brother, patience....
Just 6 weeks? Simple - we really hit it off. I respect him, he [seems] to respect me, After all, our success is largely deemed by:
1. Our ability to get along with and communicate with others, and
2. The degree to which we can choose who those 'others' are...
r.a and myself are thinking alike, anyways...you didnt just want us to say 'just do it' did ya?? thats no fun and the thread dies.....and by the way...what is on pg. 197?
R.A and TED - I am wary, hence this thread. I am trying to be less naive and more discerning, however, student loan repayments beckon and I will more or less have to take this job for the money...
Go for it. I am dying for an opportunity like that. I will take it in a heart beat. Working in an architecture firm is overrated. You get to make more important decisions in the "real" world. You will learn so much more on how the building is put together, as well as the important aspect of the financial side.
Hire me please.
go for it then...with full archinect blessings!!!......give it a real go and evaluate it every 4 months or so....dont get used to the money, really use it to pay off the loan!! [i really think these stupid loans are stop the most talented architects from doing what they want.....]you will definitely learn. the bad side is that too many cross the boundary, get a big car, big mortgage, a couple of kids then say....how can i get out?
why dont you take the extra 2x of your money and put it in the bank. Live off of the remainder and keep in touch with your boss right now. Keep informed with current architecture and maybe take some creative outlet night classes offered at an art college. Then after awhile open your own firm or go back to your old job.
so if you hit it off so well will he be pissed if you said no? Why not get registered ( then you will never question not having done it or gone through it. Work with the guy through your firm and milk the relationship. If he wants to work with you he'll want to work with you on the next project as well.
so what's three times the money 3x 30k or is it 3x 90k. it does make a difference. If he likes to work with you that much don't flatter yourself and hold out for the second offer. Maybe its 5x your current salary. There are guys like you at every office. I know many developers who have made similar offers to me and lots of my friends. Looks pretty good now but how does it look 20 yrs from now.
But then again maybe you can be like Brad Pitt and come back to Architecture when your older and buy your friendship with Frank or Rem.
Think beyond your next paycheck.
Luke, i am your father..
my, what a long red saber you have... dad.
but would you polish the turds with your saber for 3x?
'He offers you a job basically acting as director of a design unit within his organisation for triple the money.'
you've answered your own question... cross and don't look back, son.
diabase,
did you stay or did you go?
I'd say go for it, but I'd do a little research around his financial state, given the shape of the markets today. Does he have land assembled for a pipeline of projects? Where does he get his financing from? You don't want to quit your good design job and get immediately laid off.
Nothing quite like digging up a 6 year old thread.
I didn't look at the date.
I was wondering how a developer could offer someone a x3 increase salary in 2010!!.
Crikey,
This is an old thread. A lot of water has gond under the bridge, but it was largely a positive experience.
May summarise later - I moved on a little while ago, but it has provided a good grounding for what I am about to launch into.
d
hehe. That's hilarious... we've been debating a 3 year old thread. Diabase, do tell us about your experience on the "dark side" though, assuming you took the job.
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