In light of the tragedy that occurred at Virginia Tech on Monday, perhaps this country needs to routinely check the mental health of all its middle and high school students and perhap universities should institute an annual mental health checkup for all students and faculty member. This would not only help to identify and treat those in trouble, it could remove the stigma of mental health issues that plague our socitay.
We've been talking about that a bit on the original VTech thread.... and I'll repost my question here: that's all fine and dandy, but what will/can the universities do when the annual sends up some red flags? How do they institute some method of evaluation and treatment that the troubled students won't feel the need to circumvent through dishonesty in their checkups? Mental health evaluations are dependent upon the complete honesty of the patient, and if students fear that they will be kicked out of school for having a problem, then they will become afraid to admit their problem, thus cheating themselves of needed help.
again, just like 911, this is an isolated event. though tragic as hell, why should we over react and get all out of whack. this thing is plastered the news, papers, internet/archinect. it hasnt affected my coming to school every single day and night since it happened. why should it affect any other school than VT?
im just curious--- how was 911 an isolated event? did you completely forget the USS Cole attack? or the first WTC attempt? and how about the fact that 911 has led to hundreds of thousands of deaths in iraq? events do not exist in isolation.
Great, we'll just have a bunch of zombiefied kids... Billy's fingerpaintings look disturbing - let's mix Lithium in his Cheerios.
I think if a school official is worried that a kid is screwed up, they should bring it up to the parents. Let them take the kid to the doctor for evaluation/meds. Last time I checked, parents were supposed to be responsible for their children's well being...
Why has there been no mention of the shooter's family or parents? The only thing we know is that they run a dry cleaners. Did they keep the kid locked in a cage, beat him with a rubber house? I'm sure somebody is asking those questions - we're not hearing any answers though, so something must be up with them. Seems like bad parenting could be to blame as much as the teachers, courts, mental health professionals, etc...
to that scale and to a direct attack by outside "terrorists" um yeah, it was isolated. the first attempt was an attempt. the ok city bombing was an insider. the abortion clinics were insiders. the 911 attack was not a series of attacks that led us into war. it was one attack that needed retribution. we exacted it. it should have ended. the deaths in iraq may or may not be tied directly to the 911 bombings. they are/were from our actions and others actions after that day. they are definitley not the same thing.
though I agree with Vado about the necessity of alleviating stigma associated with mental health, this seems to be a gigantic task that will only be achieved through opening a sensitive debate over the course of years. One, I think, the country which seems to be beginning. NYT
Of course it is understood that the mentally ill and disabled require a certain anonymity to maintain the hope of having a type of 'normal' life however, not having a law that prevents the mentally ill from purchasing firearms seems ridiculous.
Also, to address the mdler and +i I turn to Jon Stewart. Last night he had Ali Allawi, the former Iraq Minister of Defense. Towards the end of the interview Jon asks Allawi about the difference in grieving something like VT in comparison with what happens in Iraq. very much worth watching.
lastly bucku (that works well) don't be so naive as to think this event will not effect you. the same way 911 didn't effect you?
OBL (osama) claimed he was responsible for the USS COLE- said they wanted to see how close they could get ... AL Qaeda also claimed responsibility for the first WTC attack- they said they were testing out their plan. so that's not related to 911???!
columbine didnt affect me. i dont know how this would. aside from an over reaction from our society this ouwld be left alone and therefore not affect me. i look forward to seeing how it pans out. it is not being naive to believe that this *should not* affect me. it is hope that this kind of thing would not be a constant occurance but more random so as to not need to be prepared for to happen again. forgive my optimism.
it is hope that this kind of thing would not be a constant occurance but more random so as to not need to be prepared for to happen again. forgive my optimism.
yeah, sorry about the naive thing. I missed the others hitting you while I was trying to figure out the link syntax. randomness does or does not necessitate preparation?
so we should react to any violent/malevolent/whatever attack or instance that happens? would that not lead to a complete loss of freedom. just look at one of the first comments on the original VT thread. it was talking about gun rights. it is not the gun that killed the kids its the person who operated it. i dont see anyone banning alcholhol and there are more deaths by dui than guns. (this reminds me of the movie thank you for smoking. its pretty good btw)
fact is our health system, specifically mental health system is piss poor...we have more than 30,000 a year commit suicide alone...I posted earlier to many government links that have stats that are flat out depressing and our funding to do something about it is going backwards.
I got a great idea. Anyone with any issue where they don't fit in and might have a history of mental health issues...lets mock them...and tell them they are weak and their expression is worthless...I bet that will help.
Compassion is much more difficult to muster than anger - but it tends to be necessary in situations where one wants a positive change.
I don't look at this as an isolated incident, because of the increasing number of attacks on schools. Columbine, the Amish thing last year, this, probably more that aren't fresh in my mind at the moment.... the numerous threats that are generated after each one ensure that they will not be isolated. Someone posted a link on the other thread to a report of a threat that shut down I think 32 schools in California; the threat said "I'll make Virginia Tech look like nothing." or some such comparison. Because the things are publicized, because of the reactions, they cannot exist in isolation- they each encourage other young malcontents to do the same, and they ARE.
jasoncross- I support that idea, but how do we get those who need counseling into it? Just because it's available doesn't mean they'll take advantage of it.
quite right mr. cross.
mental health does not seemed to valued here as much as well and I don't just mean the seriously mentally ill, but people dealing with death, divorce, life...
is the usa considered to be in its early twenties?
dammson, my question was completely serious, and I've yet to get an answer to it. Please try thinking on the topic seriously. How do we implement such a system to address mental instability without scaring those whom it's meant to help out of being honest? How do we protect the other students without ruining a life, potentially without reason?
You make it available and you make it unstigmatized. That would be a great start.
Do you think if you regularly saw a shrink you would want your boss to know...most Americans would not, outside of maybe Hollywood. We as a society should support those, that at any age, need help. Counseling, support groups, etc.
The NPR story I posted in the other thread from Talk of the Nation talks about a NY individual who was on a counseling waiting list for months, wanted treatment - had to wait...and eventually pushed a women into a commuter train, sans help.
Mental Health should not be an obstacle course and doctors should have more ability to provide it...and they would love to...but it is not funded...that is something we as voters and active citizens must demand in their support. That is my take.
Also a statement about how we as Americans allow our government to spend our cash. We invest much more in Jails, than mental health, public health, schools, etc.
I don't think you need counseling if you have a good relationship with family, friends, a healthy community because those people in line. so maybe we should just hold hands.
I completely agree...I feel lucky that I had all of those things - but many many Americans do not.
It is an interesting idea of how community can be 'healthy'. I wonder what effect isolation of households from one another is having?
You know what is funny is that growing up a skateboarding punk rock kid in Austin - all of our punk/skater 'values' stated by bands like the Minutement, Fugazi, Minor Threat, etc...are very hippy...heh.
I don't think you need counseling if you have a good relationship with family, friends, a healthy community because those people in line. so maybe we should just hold hands.
I don't think I've ever read something so ignorant on this board before. Not everybody is so fortunate to have "a good relationship with family, friends, and a healthy community". What of those people born into abusive families, or for whatever reason have had some sort of trauma that makes it difficult for them to cope with life?
Also, clinical depression (and other mental illnesses) can be caused by a chemical imbalance, is often hereditary, and afflicts even those with the best possible life circumstances. The right combination of counseling and/or medication is crucial in treating it.
And even if you do have a "good relationship with family, friends, a healthy community," things can happen. How many people are chronically depressed vs. experiencing a depressive episode? A depressive episode still can need treatment (not necessarily drugs though) to get a person through it, and can easily be mistaken for chronic depression if untreated, because not seeking treatment will only prolong it. Don't people experiencing depressive episodes deserve treatment too, despite having the benefits you list above?
I not ignoring the necessity of professional counsel and medication. and certainly individuals capable of mass random violence have a serious illness which requires a level of professionalism also, as rationalist points out, people do hit rough spots, what I am advocating is a solid community that can help someone to know when they are in those rough spots.
My good friend's mom is a physiatrist for a public mental health group in California. The county is considering closing down a number of offices due to budget cuts. The result is that many very disturbed people receiving aid right now will be cut off cold turkey. This means that one will have to commit a crime and go through the justice system before receiving free mental health care. Problem solved! We’ll just use crime to decide who should get help and who shouldn’t!
Mental Detector
In light of the tragedy that occurred at Virginia Tech on Monday, perhaps this country needs to routinely check the mental health of all its middle and high school students and perhap universities should institute an annual mental health checkup for all students and faculty member. This would not only help to identify and treat those in trouble, it could remove the stigma of mental health issues that plague our socitay.
We've been talking about that a bit on the original VTech thread.... and I'll repost my question here: that's all fine and dandy, but what will/can the universities do when the annual sends up some red flags? How do they institute some method of evaluation and treatment that the troubled students won't feel the need to circumvent through dishonesty in their checkups? Mental health evaluations are dependent upon the complete honesty of the patient, and if students fear that they will be kicked out of school for having a problem, then they will become afraid to admit their problem, thus cheating themselves of needed help.
we dont have the money for that...we gotta blow up Iraq
maybe we should 1st check the mental health of those running our country
again, just like 911, this is an isolated event. though tragic as hell, why should we over react and get all out of whack. this thing is plastered the news, papers, internet/archinect. it hasnt affected my coming to school every single day and night since it happened. why should it affect any other school than VT?
or those blowing up other countries
im just curious--- how was 911 an isolated event? did you completely forget the USS Cole attack? or the first WTC attempt? and how about the fact that 911 has led to hundreds of thousands of deaths in iraq? events do not exist in isolation.
Great, we'll just have a bunch of zombiefied kids... Billy's fingerpaintings look disturbing - let's mix Lithium in his Cheerios.
I think if a school official is worried that a kid is screwed up, they should bring it up to the parents. Let them take the kid to the doctor for evaluation/meds. Last time I checked, parents were supposed to be responsible for their children's well being...
Why has there been no mention of the shooter's family or parents? The only thing we know is that they run a dry cleaners. Did they keep the kid locked in a cage, beat him with a rubber house? I'm sure somebody is asking those questions - we're not hearing any answers though, so something must be up with them. Seems like bad parenting could be to blame as much as the teachers, courts, mental health professionals, etc...
fewwwww.....i thought someone found out how to detect me!
i cant wait for the VT shoot em up video game comes out
thats just wrong
my last post???
to that scale and to a direct attack by outside "terrorists" um yeah, it was isolated. the first attempt was an attempt. the ok city bombing was an insider. the abortion clinics were insiders. the 911 attack was not a series of attacks that led us into war. it was one attack that needed retribution. we exacted it. it should have ended. the deaths in iraq may or may not be tied directly to the 911 bombings. they are/were from our actions and others actions after that day. they are definitley not the same thing.
yeah mdler, that may have been a liitle far.
I am also sure that there are a number of people writing the Hollywood screenplay already
though I agree with Vado about the necessity of alleviating stigma associated with mental health, this seems to be a gigantic task that will only be achieved through opening a sensitive debate over the course of years. One, I think, the country which seems to be beginning. NYT
Of course it is understood that the mentally ill and disabled require a certain anonymity to maintain the hope of having a type of 'normal' life however, not having a law that prevents the mentally ill from purchasing firearms seems ridiculous.
Also, to address the mdler and +i I turn to Jon Stewart. Last night he had Ali Allawi, the former Iraq Minister of Defense. Towards the end of the interview Jon asks Allawi about the difference in grieving something like VT in comparison with what happens in Iraq. very much worth watching.
lastly bucku (that works well) don't be so naive as to think this event will not effect you. the same way 911 didn't effect you?
OBL (osama) claimed he was responsible for the USS COLE- said they wanted to see how close they could get ... AL Qaeda also claimed responsibility for the first WTC attack- they said they were testing out their plan. so that's not related to 911???!
Or we could just have easy open access at all ages to counseling, mental health support. That just might be too easy though.
Meds are not as necessary if people get other help along with the meds...meds alone aren't much of an answer.
Isolated event? With the Mental Health of this country, and the ammunition and firearms...I am surprised there is not much more of this honestly.
columbine didnt affect me. i dont know how this would. aside from an over reaction from our society this ouwld be left alone and therefore not affect me. i look forward to seeing how it pans out. it is not being naive to believe that this *should not* affect me. it is hope that this kind of thing would not be a constant occurance but more random so as to not need to be prepared for to happen again. forgive my optimism.
there is a precedent and a consequence for these events... whether it is VT or 911 or a war.
back to the mental condition...
The gunman was identified with mental health issues and treated and it didn't do any good.
it is hope that this kind of thing would not be a constant occurance but more random so as to not need to be prepared for to happen again. forgive my optimism.
is that being desensitized?
spotty treatment, not consistently...not the kind of treatment that would have any lasting effect.
yeah, sorry about the naive thing. I missed the others hitting you while I was trying to figure out the link syntax. randomness does or does not necessitate preparation?
so we should react to any violent/malevolent/whatever attack or instance that happens? would that not lead to a complete loss of freedom. just look at one of the first comments on the original VT thread. it was talking about gun rights. it is not the gun that killed the kids its the person who operated it. i dont see anyone banning alcholhol and there are more deaths by dui than guns. (this reminds me of the movie thank you for smoking. its pretty good btw)
fact is our health system, specifically mental health system is piss poor...we have more than 30,000 a year commit suicide alone...I posted earlier to many government links that have stats that are flat out depressing and our funding to do something about it is going backwards.
yeah i should not have stated "i hope for randomness" i should hope that this thing just should not happen.
throw the red flags birthday parties!
optimism at its best.
I got a great idea. Anyone with any issue where they don't fit in and might have a history of mental health issues...lets mock them...and tell them they are weak and their expression is worthless...I bet that will help.
Compassion is much more difficult to muster than anger - but it tends to be necessary in situations where one wants a positive change.
I don't look at this as an isolated incident, because of the increasing number of attacks on schools. Columbine, the Amish thing last year, this, probably more that aren't fresh in my mind at the moment.... the numerous threats that are generated after each one ensure that they will not be isolated. Someone posted a link on the other thread to a report of a threat that shut down I think 32 schools in California; the threat said "I'll make Virginia Tech look like nothing." or some such comparison. Because the things are publicized, because of the reactions, they cannot exist in isolation- they each encourage other young malcontents to do the same, and they ARE.
jasoncross- I support that idea, but how do we get those who need counseling into it? Just because it's available doesn't mean they'll take advantage of it.
quite right mr. cross.
mental health does not seemed to valued here as much as well and I don't just mean the seriously mentally ill, but people dealing with death, divorce, life...
is the usa considered to be in its early twenties?
it makes it much more difficult to blast people if they threw a fun party for you...
dammson, my question was completely serious, and I've yet to get an answer to it. Please try thinking on the topic seriously. How do we implement such a system to address mental instability without scaring those whom it's meant to help out of being honest? How do we protect the other students without ruining a life, potentially without reason?
You make it available and you make it unstigmatized. That would be a great start.
Do you think if you regularly saw a shrink you would want your boss to know...most Americans would not, outside of maybe Hollywood. We as a society should support those, that at any age, need help. Counseling, support groups, etc.
The NPR story I posted in the other thread from Talk of the Nation talks about a NY individual who was on a counseling waiting list for months, wanted treatment - had to wait...and eventually pushed a women into a commuter train, sans help.
Mental Health should not be an obstacle course and doctors should have more ability to provide it...and they would love to...but it is not funded...that is something we as voters and active citizens must demand in their support. That is my take.
Hey, great idea, build more jail cells - not hospitals.
or schools
can't listen at work.... who was the 'jail cells' comment in response to?
Those whose reaction is just hate - I understand it in the moment...but it is narrow minded and does absolutely nothing to foster solutions.
Also a statement about how we as Americans allow our government to spend our cash. We invest much more in Jails, than mental health, public health, schools, etc.
I don't think you need counseling if you have a good relationship with family, friends, a healthy community because those people in line. so maybe we should just hold hands.
what a hippy
though, maybe this does bring up a good point in a room(?) full of architects. better built environment = healthier people?
I completely agree...I feel lucky that I had all of those things - but many many Americans do not.
It is an interesting idea of how community can be 'healthy'. I wonder what effect isolation of households from one another is having?
You know what is funny is that growing up a skateboarding punk rock kid in Austin - all of our punk/skater 'values' stated by bands like the Minutement, Fugazi, Minor Threat, etc...are very hippy...heh.
you beat me to it.
I don't think I've ever read something so ignorant on this board before. Not everybody is so fortunate to have "a good relationship with family, friends, and a healthy community". What of those people born into abusive families, or for whatever reason have had some sort of trauma that makes it difficult for them to cope with life?
Also, clinical depression (and other mental illnesses) can be caused by a chemical imbalance, is often hereditary, and afflicts even those with the best possible life circumstances. The right combination of counseling and/or medication is crucial in treating it.
And even if you do have a "good relationship with family, friends, a healthy community," things can happen. How many people are chronically depressed vs. experiencing a depressive episode? A depressive episode still can need treatment (not necessarily drugs though) to get a person through it, and can easily be mistaken for chronic depression if untreated, because not seeking treatment will only prolong it. Don't people experiencing depressive episodes deserve treatment too, despite having the benefits you list above?
Maybe we could give up a ship or two to pay for this.
I not ignoring the necessity of professional counsel and medication. and certainly individuals capable of mass random violence have a serious illness which requires a level of professionalism also, as rationalist points out, people do hit rough spots, what I am advocating is a solid community that can help someone to know when they are in those rough spots.
National Institute of mental Health - 1 Billion ( O% of the annual budget)
Dept of Defense - 481 Billion
I agree garpike, thanks for the link.
My good friend's mom is a physiatrist for a public mental health group in California. The county is considering closing down a number of offices due to budget cuts. The result is that many very disturbed people receiving aid right now will be cut off cold turkey. This means that one will have to commit a crime and go through the justice system before receiving free mental health care. Problem solved! We’ll just use crime to decide who should get help and who shouldn’t!
that is why I said more jails...because that is our governments solution...shameful. Not to mention flat out stupid.
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