the problem is the combination of easy access to guns and mental illness. and of course much of this mental illness is not recognized diagnosed or treated.
The National Rifle Association - NRA was in St Louis, MO this year. We drove by the convention center downtown on Saturday. I was like... wtf? all rednecks. Great. Shot me.
Guns exist and will exist for the rest of time. That is a fact. It is a fact because people like the VT shooter are disgusting/crazy. Now, knowing that they exist, do you go on trying to wish them out of existence/pretend they don't exist, or do you as a responsible citizen learn how to use them, how to disarm them, and make sure some sick freak doesn't have the opportunity to kill over 30 people in one morning. If every responsible citizen knew the basics of how to handle and disarm a weapon the world would be safer.
I believe Jared makes a good point about the culture of Americans. It is our notion of fear (i.e., I need a gun to protect my family). It's a pretty strong fact that guns not involved with law enforcement kill more lives than they save. Canadians have shown that they can generally be responsible with their guns laws. However, Americans have shown that they CAN'T, and therefore our right to bear arms should be removed. IF PEOPLE, NOT GUNS, KILL PEOPLE, THEN WE ARE A NATION OF MURDERS AND SHOULD BE REVOKED OF THE FUCKING RIGHT TO OWN GUNS! NRA and other assholes are in no way educating the population, so guess what, you're done! The UK on average has less than a 100 deaths from guns a year!
And that people have the audacity to come on this thread hours after this shit at Virginia Tech happens and argue why it's ok for us to own guns! You have a right to your opinion, but jesus, have a little sense of time and appropriateness. I want you to go to a parent of a child that was just killed right now and explain to them how the 2nd fucking amendment is justified. DO IT!
"If every responsible citizen knew the basics of how to handle and disarm a weapon the world would be safer." right, so we could either shoot them with the gun we brought to class, or we could dismantle it like Jackie Chan from Rush Hour?!
I don't know if I want to live in a world where most of my classmates are packing heat down the front of their jeans.
whoa man, SBD I understand why your angry, and trust me I am too. There is something fundamentally wrong with this country socially and that expresses itself through violence, typically gun violence. Yet to simply say if we take the guns away that problem, whatever the fuck it is because i have no clue, will go away is simply false. People will continue to murder each other, we have to figure out what the real problem is with our society before we make desicions that could end up hurting us even more in the long run.
What is more chilling to me (and I don't intend to sensationalize this at all) is that the shooter killed 29 people with two handguns and not an automatic assault rifle. As was pointed out above, handguns are not the most accurate of firearms. This shooter had a lot of skill and a considerable amount of training in order to pull off this atrocity. Delivering fatal shots to moving targets (most likely moving away from the shooter) with two handguns (probably had to re-load at some point too) is astounding. Most nut jobs with guns just blindly start shooting (more wounded, but less fatalities). This guy was a nut job with training...
It'll be interesting to hear what kind of background this person had (military, etc.). There was a story out here a couple months ago about an Army Ranger that had "used" his training to rob local banks...
maybe he was just sitting in the back of class and flipped out. maybe it was an auditorium-style class of 200+ students and he just sat in the back and waited until the class got started and then started shooting... or maybe he was just that trained ... who knows.
What a terrible event! Maybe this will help bring about some change.
My stepsister's husband, James Guelff, a police officer in San Francisco, was killed in 1994 by Victor Boutwell, who had stockpiled a variety of firearms, including two assault rifles, an Uzi automatic pistol, a Colt .45 and a Glock 9mm pistol.
I don't think that a civilized, modern society (from which ours is rapidly diverging) should allow private possesion of ANY semiautomatic or automatic weapons, and should strictly control handgun ownership. They are designed solely to take another human life. Two words to illustrate that the term "gun control" is an oxymoron: Dick and Cheney.
I recently met someone, unfortunately, who bought an AK-47 at a gun show in Oregon without any background check or waiting period. I was appalled, to say the least.
Hopefully the Brady Campaign will continue to make headway now that we have a Democratic in majority in Congress again:
I never said dismantle, I said disarm. I am also not saying everyone should pack heat, mainly that in a society where guns are so abundant you should be responsible in your understanding of them. The fact that Heroin, Crack, Meth, etc.. are illegal do not stop them from killing thousands and thousands of people, yet for some reason we educate people about drugs and not weapons. Weapons are so hush hush, I am just saying that a little education would go a long way (hopefully).
The reality is that it is a huge problem and for anyone to claim to have "The Answer" would be outright arrogance. Who knows, there is probably no definite answer but responsible education is never a bad place to start. It just makes me sick either way. This world is messed up.
jc- i wont argue about coincidences on this thread- but there is an entire theory about coincidences and the fact that they dont exist, everything is a sign-symptom-precursor to the next
actually you dont have to be trained to be an excellent shot. my nephew joined the army and scored so high on the rifle range that he was headed off to sniper school. before he joined up he had never fired an automatic weapon. he learned most of his skill from computer games.
i have been watching CNN and i find it disturbing specially to the families of the kids that have been shot that cnn, for ratings of course will play over and over this clip where you can hear the shots
by the body count published it can be concluded that every other shot you hear MIGHT be a shot that is killing a person, so i think that is very unethical to be repeating every 15 minutes!
"the problem is the combination of easy access to guns and mental illness. and of course much of this mental illness is not recognized diagnosed or treated."
right on vado!
+ the commonality of violance, visually and mentally omnipresent through wars, terrorism, entertainment.
what are you doing to fight this domestic terrorism mr. 'fuckin' president?
what did this administration spent for the well being of it's citizens lately?
500billion for iraq and raising. how hi's the shit mama?
Violence is the basis of this country and when people feel that they want to make their point heard, violent will be the medium by which they will express themselves.... i find this quote to be quite relevent to the situation (not necessarily the shooting but to the direction in which the thread has gone with discussing violence in america)....America has always defended its right to use violence to get the results it desires, always has and always will! but the contradiction comes when it redicules those who do the same. the USA breeds violent individuals and it will continue to until those in power, as well as those with the power to change things (the avg. citizen) take a stand and try to come up with a different option to VIOLENCE! but something tells me that will not happen, violence delivers quick results and thats what the majority of americans want...
my prayers go out to the victims and family of the victims involved in this horrible act!
"If violence is wrong in America, violence is wrong abroad. If it is wrong to be violent defending black women and black children and black babies and black men, then it is wrong for America to draft us, and make us violent abroad in defense of her. And if it is right for America to draft us, and teach us how to be violent in defense of her, then it is right for you and me to do whatever is necessary to defend our own people right here in this country."
the next tragedy to follow, and i can predict this with nearly 100% certainty, is that people; politicians, mouth pieces, writers and regular citizens, will tell us tomorrow that this incident will start the beginning of a national debate on "rights" to bear arms, and after CNNFOXMSNBC leave the campus, nothing will be done, no new laws restricting the purchase of weapons of mass killing, nothing, nada...the only thing that will be accomplished is that we all will forget who Don Imus was last week.
This is making me physically ill. I cannot comprehend how somebody can shoot 60 + people and no one does anything to stop him. Where were the cops? What the hell happened?
I'm listening to NPR special coverage....a professor who was in the building is on the line right now....he's saying that he knows two of his colleagues have been shot, one in the face.....he thinks probably the students in his department are among the dead. This is heartbreaking.
I second SBD and Orhan regarding their comments on gun control/domestic terrorism but I can't muster much of a coherent supportive argument right now, too sick to my stomach....
This is how I felt while I was living in New York after 9/11. I would listen to NPR every day and check the news constantly to see where the anthrax would turn up next, and on the day when the plane crashed in Queens, I had it on all day.
this will knock the Don Imus controversy and the impending discussion about racial sensivity to the back burner and now we will have the "columbine" discussion again with the trench coat mafia and the grisly song lyrics and violent video games. senate hearings will be held, the gun debate will rage on full ahead and in the end not a goddamned thing will be done about anything.
american news stories are too timid to jump to conlcusions. Ever watch Daily Show and they clip cnn or fox and quote reporters saying "we just don't know right now, we can't comment, we have absolutely nothing of value to report, but we like to make a big deal out of this right now still so you can all watch us and pay for our commercials". I'm paraphrasing of course.
Reminds me of 9/11. Hour after hour, day after day of the talking heads saying they had no new information, while constantly repeating the footage of the second plane flying into the south tower and the towers subsequently collapsing. You could almost hear the TV executives licking their chops at the ratings spectacle.
A lone gunman is dead after killing 31 people at two sites at Virginia Tech, a state official told CNN. Virginia Tech president called the massacre a "incomprehensible, heinous act." Virginia Rep. Randy Forbes said he understands the shooter was a student and that he turned the gun on himself.
It's heartbreaking. cowgill & Archmed I'm glad you are safe and I hope your friends have somehow escaped this tragedy. Please take care... I have no words.
Shooting + Murder at VIRGINIA TECH
the problem is the combination of easy access to guns and mental illness. and of course much of this mental illness is not recognized diagnosed or treated.
The National Rifle Association - NRA was in St Louis, MO this year. We drove by the convention center downtown on Saturday. I was like... wtf? all rednecks. Great. Shot me.
again, like vado said- combo of mental illness + guns
Guns exist and will exist for the rest of time. That is a fact. It is a fact because people like the VT shooter are disgusting/crazy. Now, knowing that they exist, do you go on trying to wish them out of existence/pretend they don't exist, or do you as a responsible citizen learn how to use them, how to disarm them, and make sure some sick freak doesn't have the opportunity to kill over 30 people in one morning. If every responsible citizen knew the basics of how to handle and disarm a weapon the world would be safer.
fine, since this topic isn't going away.
I believe Jared makes a good point about the culture of Americans. It is our notion of fear (i.e., I need a gun to protect my family). It's a pretty strong fact that guns not involved with law enforcement kill more lives than they save. Canadians have shown that they can generally be responsible with their guns laws. However, Americans have shown that they CAN'T, and therefore our right to bear arms should be removed. IF PEOPLE, NOT GUNS, KILL PEOPLE, THEN WE ARE A NATION OF MURDERS AND SHOULD BE REVOKED OF THE FUCKING RIGHT TO OWN GUNS! NRA and other assholes are in no way educating the population, so guess what, you're done! The UK on average has less than a 100 deaths from guns a year!
And that people have the audacity to come on this thread hours after this shit at Virginia Tech happens and argue why it's ok for us to own guns! You have a right to your opinion, but jesus, have a little sense of time and appropriateness. I want you to go to a parent of a child that was just killed right now and explain to them how the 2nd fucking amendment is justified. DO IT!
I'm with you, SBD.
i third that notion... if you want to debate the 2nd ammendment, start a new thread.
"IF PEOPLE, NOT GUNS, KILL PEOPLE, THEN WE ARE A NATION OF MURDERS AND SHOULD BE REVOKED OF THE FUCKING RIGHT TO OWN GUNS!"
Beautifully put. Nothing further, your honor.
"If every responsible citizen knew the basics of how to handle and disarm a weapon the world would be safer." right, so we could either shoot them with the gun we brought to class, or we could dismantle it like Jackie Chan from Rush Hour?!
I don't know if I want to live in a world where most of my classmates are packing heat down the front of their jeans.
That's it, I'm not coming back to the US.
whoa man, SBD I understand why your angry, and trust me I am too. There is something fundamentally wrong with this country socially and that expresses itself through violence, typically gun violence. Yet to simply say if we take the guns away that problem, whatever the fuck it is because i have no clue, will go away is simply false. People will continue to murder each other, we have to figure out what the real problem is with our society before we make desicions that could end up hurting us even more in the long run.
You're country is messed up! I'm not coming out of here until they get rid of the 2nd amendment.
What is more chilling to me (and I don't intend to sensationalize this at all) is that the shooter killed 29 people with two handguns and not an automatic assault rifle. As was pointed out above, handguns are not the most accurate of firearms. This shooter had a lot of skill and a considerable amount of training in order to pull off this atrocity. Delivering fatal shots to moving targets (most likely moving away from the shooter) with two handguns (probably had to re-load at some point too) is astounding. Most nut jobs with guns just blindly start shooting (more wounded, but less fatalities). This guy was a nut job with training...
It'll be interesting to hear what kind of background this person had (military, etc.). There was a story out here a couple months ago about an Army Ranger that had "used" his training to rob local banks...
maybe he was just sitting in the back of class and flipped out. maybe it was an auditorium-style class of 200+ students and he just sat in the back and waited until the class got started and then started shooting... or maybe he was just that trained ... who knows.
maybe he was a responsible citizen who knew the basics of how to handle and disarm a weapon, and not some mental ill patient.
kinda like charles whitman?
I'mone of the hokies among you, rationalist. And I'm okay.... physically.
Thanks for your concern.
just read your post Archmed, that's unerving. I hope all your friends are ok and you too are fine.
What a terrible event! Maybe this will help bring about some change.
My stepsister's husband, James Guelff, a police officer in San Francisco, was killed in 1994 by Victor Boutwell, who had stockpiled a variety of firearms, including two assault rifles, an Uzi automatic pistol, a Colt .45 and a Glock 9mm pistol.
I don't think that a civilized, modern society (from which ours is rapidly diverging) should allow private possesion of ANY semiautomatic or automatic weapons, and should strictly control handgun ownership. They are designed solely to take another human life. Two words to illustrate that the term "gun control" is an oxymoron: Dick and Cheney.
I recently met someone, unfortunately, who bought an AK-47 at a gun show in Oregon without any background check or waiting period. I was appalled, to say the least.
Hopefully the Brady Campaign will continue to make headway now that we have a Democratic in majority in Congress again:
Brady Campaign
This might help clear some things up:
link
that's it! i'm watching family guy to calm down, thank you Somnam!
let's just all calm down and give archmed + everyone else at VT our thoughts and hopes for their safety
SBD-
I never said dismantle, I said disarm. I am also not saying everyone should pack heat, mainly that in a society where guns are so abundant you should be responsible in your understanding of them. The fact that Heroin, Crack, Meth, etc.. are illegal do not stop them from killing thousands and thousands of people, yet for some reason we educate people about drugs and not weapons. Weapons are so hush hush, I am just saying that a little education would go a long way (hopefully).
The reality is that it is a huge problem and for anyone to claim to have "The Answer" would be outright arrogance. Who knows, there is probably no definite answer but responsible education is never a bad place to start. It just makes me sick either way. This world is messed up.
"nothing in life is a coincidence"
actually, many things in like are a coincidence...i.e. the definition. sometimes senselessness is just that, senseless.
my condolences to you hokies out there.
i agree with +i, the real attention we should be giving is to Achmed and cowgirl and thanking that they are safe.
jc- i wont argue about coincidences on this thread- but there is an entire theory about coincidences and the fact that they dont exist, everything is a sign-symptom-precursor to the next
i don't thinks anyone has ever put it more clearly than this:
Homer Gets a Gun
nice way to not argue.
and that wasnt a coincidence, was it
actually you dont have to be trained to be an excellent shot. my nephew joined the army and scored so high on the rifle range that he was headed off to sniper school. before he joined up he had never fired an automatic weapon. he learned most of his skill from computer games.
i have been watching CNN and i find it disturbing specially to the families of the kids that have been shot that cnn, for ratings of course will play over and over this clip where you can hear the shots
by the body count published it can be concluded that every other shot you hear MIGHT be a shot that is killing a person, so i think that is very unethical to be repeating every 15 minutes!
right on vado!
+ the commonality of violance, visually and mentally omnipresent through wars, terrorism, entertainment.
what are you doing to fight this domestic terrorism mr. 'fuckin' president?
what did this administration spent for the well being of it's citizens lately?
500billion for iraq and raising. how hi's the shit mama?
and so it goes.
Violence is the basis of this country and when people feel that they want to make their point heard, violent will be the medium by which they will express themselves.... i find this quote to be quite relevent to the situation (not necessarily the shooting but to the direction in which the thread has gone with discussing violence in america)....America has always defended its right to use violence to get the results it desires, always has and always will! but the contradiction comes when it redicules those who do the same. the USA breeds violent individuals and it will continue to until those in power, as well as those with the power to change things (the avg. citizen) take a stand and try to come up with a different option to VIOLENCE! but something tells me that will not happen, violence delivers quick results and thats what the majority of americans want...
my prayers go out to the victims and family of the victims involved in this horrible act!
"If violence is wrong in America, violence is wrong abroad. If it is wrong to be violent defending black women and black children and black babies and black men, then it is wrong for America to draft us, and make us violent abroad in defense of her. And if it is right for America to draft us, and teach us how to be violent in defense of her, then it is right for you and me to do whatever is necessary to defend our own people right here in this country."
-- Malcolm X, Nov. 1963, New York City.
shit, is indeed, fucked up
the next tragedy to follow, and i can predict this with nearly 100% certainty, is that people; politicians, mouth pieces, writers and regular citizens, will tell us tomorrow that this incident will start the beginning of a national debate on "rights" to bear arms, and after CNNFOXMSNBC leave the campus, nothing will be done, no new laws restricting the purchase of weapons of mass killing, nothing, nada...the only thing that will be accomplished is that we all will forget who Don Imus was last week.
fuck you amerika, fuck you to hell.
This is making me physically ill. I cannot comprehend how somebody can shoot 60 + people and no one does anything to stop him. Where were the cops? What the hell happened?
I'm listening to NPR special coverage....a professor who was in the building is on the line right now....he's saying that he knows two of his colleagues have been shot, one in the face.....he thinks probably the students in his department are among the dead. This is heartbreaking.
I second SBD and Orhan regarding their comments on gun control/domestic terrorism but I can't muster much of a coherent supportive argument right now, too sick to my stomach....
i wish i could listen to npr right now...
wonderk- im listening to npr too... this is just so appaling...
SBD you can, just find a station online and hit the "listen now"....
I'm listening to WVXU....
This is how I felt while I was living in New York after 9/11. I would listen to NPR every day and check the news constantly to see where the anthrax would turn up next, and on the day when the plane crashed in Queens, I had it on all day.
fuck you who?
i just realized that all of you had to deal with this in the middle of the day while you're still at work, shit.
this will knock the Don Imus controversy and the impending discussion about racial sensivity to the back burner and now we will have the "columbine" discussion again with the trench coat mafia and the grisly song lyrics and violent video games. senate hearings will be held, the gun debate will rage on full ahead and in the end not a goddamned thing will be done about anything.
i shouldn't say it, but since the speculation gates have been opened i doubt the shooters were students
The Evening Standard (in London) has an unusually detailed story, citing student rumors that the shooting might have been the result of some sort of romantic disaster involving several students, with the shooter possibly being a dumped boyfriend:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23392898-details/31%20dead%20on%20Virginia%20campus%20in%20worst%20mass%20shooting%20in%20US%20history/article.do
Dunno why a Brit paper is the only one reporting this
american news stories are too timid to jump to conlcusions. Ever watch Daily Show and they clip cnn or fox and quote reporters saying "we just don't know right now, we can't comment, we have absolutely nothing of value to report, but we like to make a big deal out of this right now still so you can all watch us and pay for our commercials". I'm paraphrasing of course.
yeah, superbeatledud, our mainstream media sucks.
i've been listening to npr all morning, and their coverage of it, i think, is pretty good. right now there's a press confrence.
Reminds me of 9/11. Hour after hour, day after day of the talking heads saying they had no new information, while constantly repeating the footage of the second plane flying into the south tower and the towers subsequently collapsing. You could almost hear the TV executives licking their chops at the ratings spectacle.
This is on cnn's website:
A lone gunman is dead after killing 31 people at two sites at Virginia Tech, a state official told CNN. Virginia Tech president called the massacre a "incomprehensible, heinous act." Virginia Rep. Randy Forbes said he understands the shooter was a student and that he turned the gun on himself.
It's heartbreaking. cowgill & Archmed I'm glad you are safe and I hope your friends have somehow escaped this tragedy. Please take care... I have no words.
ok...espn.com's home site has the school shootings...i don't know if i'm ok with that...
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.